157 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

No. She IS stat dependent. At low promotions you have to rely on guard generation skills like TTD, Warcry or charging bull. On high promotes you can bypass all of this and go for a broken build that outputs more DPS than intended by the class design

For an average player even with good stats like myself you need that guard generation all the time.  On my one try on NM last night I waltzed along in really good shape until I met the despair demons that stripe guard so fast then I was in immediate trouble.  To me her offensive skills are a happy addition to survivability.

[Beerfish]

Savage Thorn helps a lot here, too. I am not sure what her base guard generation per hit is, but with a Savage Thorn, Hidden Blades or Throwing blades give you ~60% of your guard bar, and Spinning Blades blatantly maxes it. Shame 2 thorns don't stack, I need a good off-hand dagger, and Dagger of the Dragon doesn't do anything for me there since nothing in perilous punches through the guard.

Glad I saw this post, was not sure about Thorn stacking.  I marginally had an aoe dagger as my 2nd one, not sure what dagger to use in the off hand now.

[Proto]

No. She IS stat dependent. At low promotions you have to rely on guard generation skills like TTD, Warcry or charging bull. On high promotes you can bypass all of this and go for a broken build that outputs more DPS than intended by the class design

 

 

Wavebend, OP is a relative term. Compared to the majority of the other classes, she is not very promotion dependent. She is also much more friendly to all promotion tiers. She actually has the skill trees to accommodate.

 

Because of this, she seems OP when extremely high promotions are present. But, this would be the case with any of the classes. You compare a 30/30/30 Assassin with a 150/150/150 assassin and the 150/150/150 assassin is going to be OP...

[lJustAlexl]

No. She IS stat dependent. At low promotions you have to rely on guard generation skills like TTD, Warcry or charging bull. On high promotes you can bypass all of this and go for a broken build that outputs more DPS than intended by the class design

 

This topic is filled with people of pretty varying levels of promotions and gear all saying she's a great character that performs well at lower and higher levels. Sounds like she's just a well-designed class to me.

[konfeta]

Glad I saw this post, was not sure about Thorn stacking.  I marginally had an aoe dagger as my 2nd one, not sure what dagger to use in the off hand now.

Well, outside the dream of Hakkon/Thorn combo, I think Nameless Blade (10% damage per nearby target and 24% armor pen) or the new Silencer (Hidden Blades proc due her reliance on multihit abilities should help a lot here) would be the best offhands I think.

 

 

 

 

This topic is filled with people of pretty varying levels of promotions and gear all saying she's a great character that performs well at lower and higher levels. Sounds like she's just a well-designed class to me.

*cougharcanewarriorcough*

[Wavebend]

Wavebend, OP is a relative term. Compared to the majority of the other classes, she is not very promotion dependent.

 

Don't take my posts out of context. She scales much better with promotions than the majority of other classes and becomes broken at high promotions. "stat dependent" in this context means exactly that, not that she can't perform well at low promotions.

 

This topic is filled with people of pretty varying levels of promotions and gear all saying she's a great character that performs well at lower and higher levels. Sounds like she's just a well-designed class to me.

 

She performs too well at higher promotions

 

Guys, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Obviously the results are there, higher promoted players are cakewalking NM like it's routine. You don't want to admit it, fine, but I'll keep my opinion that she needs a slight nerf, preferably involving flow of battle.

[Ternega]

This topic is filled with people of pretty varying levels of promotions and gear all saying she's a great character that performs well at lower and higher levels. Sounds like she's just a well-designed class to me.

Nobody is saying she isn't well designed. People are questioning well balanced tho. And yes there are better tanks better dps and certainly better supports but the problem is she is probably in top 3 of any rating list you can reasonably think up for DAIMP.

 

I still maintain that best nerf to pala would be making cunning give crit damage, but sadly that would wreck havoc for game balance.

[Drasca]

I felt OP until the Zone 3 FC Despair Demon brigade brought me back down to earth. 

 

That's what hidden blades is for.

[capn233]

Maybe promotes need a nerf.

[konfeta]

She performs too well at higher promotions

 

Guys, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Obviously the results are there, higher promoted players are cakewalking NM like it's routine. You don't want to admit it, fine, but I'll keep my opinion that she needs a slight nerf, preferably involving flow of battle.

It's funny, there are 2 mechanics that "break" this game (i.e. scale really, really well) - life steal and flat CDR from attacking. She happened to get both (with better skill/weapon support than Katari) and is instant fan favorite.

 

I'd say Isabella is the best designed implementation of these mechanics so far. She generates life from attacking via the coins, and her flat CDR is only 0.2 per hit on a vendetta'd target. Flow of Battle/Opportunity Knocks give crit exponential scaling, and her coin doesn't effectively supercharge high defense % values like guard or life on hit do.

[Drasanil]

Guys, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Obviously the results are there, higher promoted players are cakewalking NM like it's routine. You don't want to admit it, fine, but I'll keep my opinion that she needs a slight nerf, preferably involving flow of battle.

 

A flow of battle nerf would hurt low promote people a lot more than the high-promoters. Which seems to be rather counter-productive given it weakens her more when she is not at an OP state, and defeats the point of promote grinding which is to become OP in the first place.

[Wavebend]

A flow of battle nerf would hurt low promote people a lot more than the high-promoters. Which seems to be rather counter-productive given it weakens her more when she is not at an OP state, and defeats the point of promote grinding which is to become OP in the first place.

 

No and I've thought about this for a while. Playing on beta at low promotes I was running a Throwing Blades, Hidden Blades, Combat Roll and TTD build involving low to no use of Flow of Battle. This is why I suggested a damage buff (Fervor was added in the newest iteration) with this in mind. Flow of Battle isn't necessary when you have many options for both DPS and survivability.

 

I do understand your point, but again as I've said she is in an OP state when you have high promotions right now.

 

Flow of Battle, if not removed, should be tweaked or replaced with Kirkwall's kiss (CDR per hit, crit or non-crit) or whatever could fit a Gathering Storm for rogues. Otherwise, rework of tree is necessary

[Proto]

Don't take my posts out of context. She scales much better with promotions than the majority of other classes and becomes broken at high promotions. "stat dependent" in this context means exactly that, not that she can't perform well at low promotions..

 

I'll agree. She is "overpowered" at high promotions. And much more powerful than her counterparts at low promotions according to posts here.

 

 

She performs too well at higher promotions

 

Right now she is the only rogue worth bringing to HB.

 

Guys, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Obviously the results are there, higher promoted players are cakewalking NM like it's routine. You don't want to admit it, fine, but I'll keep my opinion that she needs a slight nerf, preferably involving flow of battle.

 

Agreed, she makes NM super easy for highly promoted players. It was already pretty easy for the highly promoted, though. I think a slight nerf would be fair.

[Spin-Orbit]

Wavebend, OP is a relative term. Compared to the majority of the other classes, she is not very promotion dependent. She is also much more friendly to all promotion tiers. She actually has the skill trees to accommodate.

 

Because of this, she seems OP when extremely high promotions are present. But, this would be the case with any of the classes. You compare a 30/30/30 Assassin with a 150/150/150 assassin and the 150/150/150 assassin is going to be OP...

150/150/150 Assassin will not be able to solo without a lot of luck NM nevermind HB

[Beerfish]

This topic is filled with people of pretty varying levels of promotions and gear all saying she's a great character that performs well at lower and higher levels. Sounds like she's just a well-designed class to me.

Agreed a key for her is that BioWare seems to be listening about those all important 1st two generic abilities chose for you.  Her 1st two make her instantly viable under a lot of circumstances.  Some other classes have key abilities too far down the tree.

 

If anything I think she is more gear driven than ability point driven.  If I was using low level daggers and poor equipables I think it would be less of a picnic.

[Dedric]

47/54/59 here, and without Hakkon's or even a Nameless Blade I find her to a bit over the top (tho still not as OP as Reaver). Once her upgraded Throwing Blades is fixed I don't see a reason for her to keep Flow of Battle considering how durable she is.

[tempest238]

All my stats are around 30. I can't spam abilities. The only people saying she is OP are the people who have forgotten what its like to have less than 100 cunning.

 

When talking about balance, the opinions of those with stats in the hundreds should be discredited, since they represent  not even 1% of the player base.

Discredited is a strong word. But opinions of those players should have less weight behind them when it comes to the balance of MP.

 

No. She IS stat dependent. At low promotions you have to rely on guard generation skills like TTD, Warcry or charging bull. On high promotes you can bypass all of this and go for a broken build that outputs more DPS than intended by the class design

Every class is "stat dependent" if you really think about it. But Pala is even less stat dependent then any other class. Just for the simple fact of the way her skill tree is set up, and what those skills and passives do for her compared to any other class. My stats are 40-50-70 give or take a few. And I can already spam abilities with an archer. Guess what, Pala has those same passives with stamina regen and CDR. So even with my moderate stats I plan on trying a pure DPS spec for Pala (perilous/nightmare runs btw.) Although I cant comment to much on her yet. What free time I have, I have spent playing the Descent DLC for SP.

 

Because of this, she seems OP when extremely high promotions are present. But, this would be the case with any of the classes. You compare a 30/30/30 Assassin with a 150/150/150 assassin and the 150/150/150 assassin is going to be OP...

Most people with high promotions lose sight of what the game use to be like back when they had none.

 

Guys, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Obviously the results are there, higher promoted players are cakewalking NM like it's routine. You don't want to admit it, fine, but I'll keep my opinion that she needs a slight nerf, preferably involving flow of battle.

She doesnt need a nerf at all imo. Atleast this early in release.

 

What really needs a nerf is stats from promotions. I have said it once and I will say it again. Bioware wrecked any chance they have at a balanced game when they added in stats from promotions.(before anybody says they never added it, I am implying during developement when a dev said "hey lets add stats to promotions") People that are able to spend anywhere from 8 to 12 hrs a day playing are not the norm at all. Having 75% melee, magic, and ranged defense, 75% crit chance etc etc is what is breaking the game.

 

For example crit chance. Even reducing the stat gained from promotions from .5 to something more like .1 or .2 would have a huge impact on the amount of posts where people complain about things needing nerfs or buffs. It would also make Biowares job easier when it comes to balancing the game for all levels of promotions

[Proto]

150/150/150 Assassin will not be able to solo without a lot of luck NM nevermind HB

 

I don't know. New stealth upgrade is BEASTMODE. Would just take ages. HB, no go forsure.

[SkillSpray]

My stats aren't anything impressive, 52/52/53, but pala is the only character I've played that can tank her way through nightmare. (mind you, i'm not playing templar/lego). The stats are enough to keep spamming abilities.

I'm using throwing blades/hidden blades and spinning blades, with combat roll as a cc removal. Build might not be optimal, but i enjoy playing her like this. As long as she has something to hit, she is pretty much immortal. I've tanked multiple horrors at the same time by simply running in the middle of them and spamming stuff. Guard generation is more than enough for me with this build. With any other class, i'd have to constantly break LoS to avoid getting 1 shotted by overbuffed horrors. With pala-not so much.

 

Aside from the shield guys, venatori are also a joke. Demons are a joke in general.

 

Her obvious counters are shield bearers, but i just leave those for someone else

[Spin-Orbit]

I don't know. New stealth upgrade is BEASTMODE. Would just take ages. HB, no go forsure.

it depends on the enemies, she can't one-shot the bigger enemies, against red templar horrors and knights in zone 4 she will have problems. For her to solo it will take long time in and out of stealth and luck in enemies.

[Wavebend]

She doesnt need a nerf at all imo. Atleast this early in release.

 

What really needs a nerf is stats from promotions.

 

What you're suggesting isn't possible, so a nerf (read: rework) of her tree is necessary rather than a lazy nerf. See solutions I suggested

[Proto]

My stats aren't anything impressive, 52/52/53, but pala is the only character I've played that can tank her way through nightmare. (mind you, i'm not playing templar/lego). The stats are enough to keep spamming abilities.

I'm using throwing blades/hidden blades and spinning blades, with combat roll as a cc removal. Build might not be optimal, but i enjoy playing her like this. As long as she has something to hit, she is pretty much immortal. I've tanked multiple horrors at the same time by simply running in the middle of them and spamming stuff. Guard generation is more than enough for me with this build. With any other class, i'd have to constantly break LoS to avoid getting 1 shotted by overbuffed horrors. With pala-not so much.

 

Aside from the shield guys, venatori are also a joke. Demons are a joke in general.

 

Her obvious counters are shield bearers, but i just leave those for someone else

 

/bow

[Sulaco_7]

I'll go along with a slight tweak to Flow of Battle.. but people advocating for it to be completely removed.. wow.

 

I think it's important to remember, people with high stats can already go into Nightmare / Heartbreaker and do well with other kits.  

 

I always saw this kit as way for low/medium/casual players to access the higher difficulties easier, and I got the feeling this was Bioware's intent from the get-go.    Right now, she fills this role very well, and I would hope we wouldn't want to change that.

[Reznore57]

In my experience she's cheated .

I have 29 cunning maybe 27 willpower and 23 endurance.

If you remember me Wavebend , I tend to die a lot for stupid reasons.

 

Anyway I didn't play her much but I did two nightmare run with her where I ended up solo from time to time (people getting disconnected) it was the dragon map with demons both time.

It was a cakewalk .Really.

I didn't even care when I find myself alone on wave 4 with I don't know how many rage demons , and despair demons , pride demon trying to kill me.

The more the better actually , I kept the Green Knife spell to build guard easily from a distance , the Isabela spinning stuff so when you're surrounded you build guard , charging bull to knock off despair demons , and to the death to again build guard and kick big stuff quicker.

I also had the Savage Thorn...

So I was full guard all the bloody time.I didn't die once during those two runs.

 

I feel she's cheated because she was tanking way better than my Legionnaire and was doing more damage.

[Yilin]

I find her playstyle to be very fun, perhaps the funnest character yet in MP.  Surely, at least in part because of flow of battle / high crit and being able to fire off abilities rather than simply auto attacking; I've been hoping for another character that can reach such quick CDs like the archer.  And of course she's an unstoppable murder machine.  If she must be toned down... I hope this gameplay is preserved with damage perhaps being reduced somewhat, because it's fun!

 

Edit: oops, to be on topic - 75/75/80 ish