45 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr Wuppet]

Hi, I'm playing the OC with a human wizard (Illusionist) and have enough XP to reach level 9.  What feat should I pick here, and what others are recommended further down the line?

 

I do NOT intend to multiclass, unless someone can REALLY persuade me...  Starting stats were 8(STR)/14(DEX)/14(CON)/18(INT)/8(WIS)/10(CHA); added 2 ability points to INT since then.

 

Feats selected so far include Toughness, Skill focus (Concentration), Spell penetration, Extend spell and Empower spell.  Skillpoints-wise I have been maxing class skills Concentration and Spellcraft, and cross-class skills Appraise, Persuade and Tumble.  Got 10 points in Heal and 2 in Search as well.

 

Feats I am considering include Maximise spell, Still spell, Silent spell, Quicken spell and Greater spell penetration.  I don't see the point in taking Maximise until lvl12, and is this feat really worth it when I already have Empower?

 

Cliffs:

- What wizard feat (or other) should I take at lvl9?

- Is Maximise spell a worthy feat at all?

- Are Still and Silent spell feats useful in OC (Hardcore difficulty)?

- Is Greater spell penetration worth it?

- Should I make room for Spell focus (Illusion) or (Evocation)?

 

P.S.  Am I correct in thinking Skill focus (Conc.) is more useful than Combat casting?

[JediMindTrix]

Spell Focus: Abjuration, then Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration.

 

As far as Multi-classing, were I in your shoes I would wait until level 17 to take a single level of Rogue, while boosting Intelligence attribute along the way, then skill-dump into Tumble (for +3 or 4 AC), 15 points into UMD (To use all items, ever), and maybe move silently and hide in case you need to dip around a corner and escape in a bad situation.

 

Do not take Silent, Still or Quicken Spell. I've never found a use for Silent or Still, anywhere, on servers or Single Player campaigns. Quicken is basically nullified by being Hasted, which you should always be casting on yourself at the start of combat, preferably extended.

 

The Spell Focus in Abjuration will make your dispels a lot more powerful, allowing whomever you have as a henchman (if you do), to pummel away more easily on your enemies.

 

Greater Spell Penetration is worth it situationally. You'll see no benefit against monsters without Spell Resistance, and I don't recall how many enemies in the OC have Spell Resistance. IIRC you can dispel the effects of a Spell Resistance Cleric spell.
 

Maximize IS definitely useful.

[Mr Wuppet]

Was taking Spell penetration a wasted feat, then?  Could I replace it using console commands?

 

So Still spells can't be cast while being held/paralysed?  Is it only useful for fighter mages who wear armour then?

 

I can see the logic of dumping skills late in a build if playing a module aimed at powerbuilds and/or characters with 15+ levels, but I've read that most people finish the OC between levels 15 and 18.  I suspect, having a pixie familiar with me a lot for disarming traps and opening locks, and a henchman (mainly for diversion, but also for carrying extra stuff), I may not even reach lvl17.  Besides, it's not that fun holding all those skillpoints and not using them until very late.

 

Don't Empowered spells do more damage / give more bonuses on average than Maximised spells?  Or does having Maximise give you more flexibility with arranging spell slots?

 

Back to your first point; Spell focus (Abjuration); are you 100% sure this feat actually improves dispel spells?  I can't see how the equation on NWNwiki is affected.  I thought dispelling was just based on caster level?

[Mr Wuppet]

I thought Spell focus only affects saving throw DCs...

[MrZork]

I thought Spell focus only affects saving throw DCs...

You are correct. Spell focus feats in abjuration will not help your dispels. They will raise the DCs of spells in that school that require a saving throw, but there aren't many of those of consequence in abjuration. Dismissal and Banishment both benefit from the feat, but those spells would likely only be useful a handful of times in the OC. In my opinion, Spell focus in abjuration would not be a good use of a feat.

 

Typically, people take spell focus in evocation to increase the average damage of many spells that allow a saving throw (Firebrand, Cone of Cold, Sunburst, Meteor Swarm, etc.) and in necromancy, to increase the effectiveness of instant death spells and necromancy spells that cause damage (typically Negative Energy Burst and Horrid Wilting) and maybe Fear for crowd control. If the module has very few creatures with immunity to mind effects, then some people like to focus in enchantment spells. IMO, the former two are better choices for the OC.

 

Spell penetration isn't necessary, but can help against some foes in the OC. There may be a few dragons with notable SR and a planar beast or two as well. Many people who are playing pure casters don't take it because their spell penetration is so high just due to high caster level at level 40. But in the OC, that isn't relevant as the PC will be level 15 to 17 when he encounters some creatures with SR in the twenties.It may still be advisable to employ breach spells to lower those opponents' SR, of course. But, the spell pen feats will allow more spells to hit if one runs low on breaches or prefers to cast extra spells while hasted instead of using breaches from scrolls. It's partly a play style thing. Some players will prefer to start every fight against a dragon (or other high SR creature) with a Mord's scroll and forget the spell pen feats. Others get some enjoyment from being able to hit those creatures under their spells' own power.

 

Maximized spells will tend to do more damage on average than empowered spells. Empowered spells can do more damage, but rarely do. In the case of spells with lots of damage dice (like Isaac's), the odds of an empowered spell doing more damage than the maximized version are very small (about 0.02% for IGMS at level 17, the first level when you would have a level 9 slot to use for a maximized IGMS). As you note, both maximize and empower allow you flexibility in where you slot your spells. That is also a reason some players take the still and silent spell feats (so that damage spells can also be put in slots one higher than their base spell level).

 

The skill focus in concentration is not a favored feat, but it is better than combat casting, which is a very low-value feat. I wouldn't take the skill focus feat (there are items that boost concentration and the better strategy for most mages is to avoid getting hit).

 

Anyway, if I were you, I would probably be leaning toward spell focus evocation or necromancy for a level 9 feat (if you decide to do both, then I prefer evocation first because you won't have any nice death spells until later, but you will have decent damage spells earlier on).

 

You can't directly replace a previously chosen feat from the console. But, you can use console commands (specifically dm_giveXP) to remove enough XP (see the level progression article to help figure out how much) to drop below the level where you chose a feat you regret and then give the same XP back so that you can relevel yourself back to where you left off, choosing the feats you want this time through. (That doesn't work for feats chosen at level 1.)

 

I hope this helps.

[Mr Wuppet]

It does help, thank you.

 

Unfortunately, I selected Skill focus (Conc.) at lvl1 with Toughness, but that's not the end of the world.  I think I will select Silent spell at lvl9 (I am close to facing Desther, and I believe he is a cleric?  On the slim chance he casts Silence, it may be useful to have a silent Dispel ready) and Spell focus (Evoc.) at lvl10.  Maximise at lvl12, Spell focus (Illus.) and (Necro.) at lvl 15, and it's a toss-up whether I go for Arcane defense (Evoc.) and Greater spell penetration at lvl18 or lvl20.

 

Cheers!

[Shadooow]

both still and silent are very good choices early to get more damaging spells, for a regular mage who will use robe take silent of course, and use it to memorize/cast burning hands at lvl2, fireball at lvl 4 etc. very powerful

 

EDIT: dont take penetration feats in OC, especially if you go pure wiz/sorc, there wont be any enemies with SR and those few will be easy to overcome anyway, in worst case you will use dispel/breach on them first, penetration is good for spellsword mages or on PWs, rarely seen any use of it in singleplayer modules

[Mr Wuppet]

Does casting spells in higher slots make them more powerful?  I thought effects, saves, etc. are unaffected? i.e. the base spell is used to determine the power?

 

Or did you mean putting more damaging spells in additional slots gives you more "power"/freedom?

[Shadooow]

Does casting spells in higher slots make them more powerful?  I thought effects, saves, etc. are unaffected? i.e. the base spell is used to determine the power?

 

Or did you mean putting more damaging spells in additional slots gives you more "power"/freedom?

silent/still wont make them more powerful, but you will have more of them

 

silent/still is usually my first choice at lvl 3 on a persistant worlds, in singleplayer where you mostly dont know what you will be facing the advantage isnt that high for a wizard who needs to prepare his spells in advance, but sorcerer benefits a lot from this as he can choose silent fireball at any time

[JediMindTrix]

I thought Spell focus only affects saving throw DCs...

You're right, I've been playing on this server for so long that changes like that slip my mind sometimes.

[MagicalMaster]

Hi, I'm playing the OC with a human wizard (Illusionist) and have enough XP to reach level 9.  What feat should I pick here, and what others are recommended further down the line?

 

To echo what some people have said, only Evocation/Necromancy are really worth getting Spell Focus in, with *possibly* Enchantment as a third if you have feats to spare or the environment makes Evocation and/or Necromancy bad.

 

Maximize, Empower, and either Silent or Still are all really good.  Silent/Still are solely for spellbook management -- lets you cast IGMS as level 7 spell for even more of them, as an example.  They're better for Sorcerers since Sorcerers can adjust on the fly but still good for Wizards.

 

As JediMindTrix has now realized, Abjuration does not affect dispels by default.

 

Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration as a Wizard are actually fairly good -- you have 4 extra feats anyway, less spells per day, and inability to convert spell slots into breaches at will.  Yeah, once you hit level 31 then nothing will resist you except for high level monks or custom creatures in non-Bioware modules/worlds...but you won't even hit level 31 going through HotU.  Can suck if you're a level 11 Wizard and something with 16 SR ignores 20% of your spells.  GSP eliminates that (or changes an enemy with 20 SR from ignoring 40% down to 20%).  Catch is that it does nothing against enemies with no SR or less SR than your level and you *can* use (Lesser/Greater) Spell Breach or Mord's to reduce SR as well -- though having GSP means that Greater Spell Breach is as effective as Mord's.

 

Combat Casting is just bad -- it literally requires a special mode called Combat Casting.

 

Empower Spell adds 50% more damage while Maximize maxes the die rolls.  So if you have a spell that does 10d6 damage (like Fireball), it'll do 52.5 damage when Empowered and 60 when Maximized.  Spells with larger dice (like d8) are much better with Maximize while spells with smaller dice (d4 or less) and/or static added values are better with Empowered.

 

Spell focus (Illus.) and (Necro.) at lvl 15, and it's a toss-up whether I go for Arcane defense (Evoc.)

 

I would not pick up Spell Focus: Illusion.  Weird is basically just worse than Wail of the Banshee in several ways and no other Illusion spell really matters DC wise.  Arcane Defense is also really bad, skip it.

[Grani]

Combat Casting is just bad -- it literally requires a special mode called Combat Casting.

 

Empower Spell adds 50% more damage while Maximize maxes the die rolls.  So if you have a spell that does 10d6 damage (like Fireball), it'll do 52.5 damage when Empowered and 60 when Maximized.  Spells with larger dice (like d8) are much better with Maximize while spells with smaller dice (d4 or less) and/or static added values are better with Empowered.

 

 

I'll play the devil's advocate and say that Combat Casting is only bad in modules with default expertise behavior or low level range.

If Expertise does not work with spellcasting, then there's really no better combat mode for spellcasters than Defensive casting anyway.

Similarly, if a module encompasses epic levels, Combat Casting is alright just to take Improved Combat Casting.

 

As for empower vs maximize, while what you said about damage is true, it should be noted that Empower requires a lower spell slot. So it really depends on preferences/environment. Actually, there's nothing wrong with taking both empower and maximize. This way you could cast IGMS a whole freaking lot of times.

[Shadooow]

As for empower vs maximize, while what you said about damage is true, it should be noted that Empower requires a lower spell slot.

I think he was pointing that empower is way better than maximize. For spells like fireball the damage is equal, for spells like negative energy burst the damage from empower is better than maximize.

[JediMindTrix]

I'll play the devil's advocate and say that Combat Casting is only bad in modules with default expertise behavior or low level range.

If Expertise does not work with spellcasting, then there's really no better combat mode for spellcasters than Defensive casting anyway.

Similarly, if a module encompasses epic levels, Combat Casting is alright just to take Improved Combat Casting.

 

As for empower vs maximize, while what you said about damage is true, it should be noted that Empower requires a lower spell slot. So it really depends on preferences/environment. Actually, there's nothing wrong with taking both empower and maximize. This way you could cast IGMS a whole freaking lot of times.

 

Both of those feats are terrible because in both pre-epic and post epic levels, there are always far better feats you can instead be taking.

[Grani]

Both of those feats are terrible because in both pre-epic and post epic levels, there are always far better feats you can instead be taking.

 

I argued against Combat Casting being "just bad", since it CAN be useful depending on the module, not combat casting being worse than other possibilites. Besides, the usefulness of CC/ICC increases the more the spellcaster is surrounded by enemies. It can easily save you 50+HP per spell cast, but, of course, this usefulness is also dependant on the spellcaster's AC and some other effects.

 

 

 

I think he was pointing that empower is way better than maximize. For spells like fireball the damage is equal, for spells like negative energy burst the damage from empower is better than maximize.

 

I think MM clearly said that maximize is superior due to dealing higher damage than empower in almost all cases. Thus, I replied saying that they both have their advantages and disadvantages and, in fact, can both be taken at the same time.

[Mr Wuppet]

I took people's advice and replaced Spell penetration feat with Silent spell, and took Spell focus (Evoc.) at lvl9.  Silent Dispel came in handy when a Skeleton Priest cast Silence on my mage!  I may take Spell penetration feats after lvl15, but what feats do people typically take from lvls 1-20?  If someone could explain to me the reasons as to which feats to take (and when), then that would give me something to think about.

 

In OC Ch1 finale, I came across 2 Bodaks in the courtyard, and they start off by casting Death gaze.  Because I cast Resistance, Protection from Alignment, and Owl's Wisdom, I normally beat the DC (14).  But occasionally I roll a 1 and equal the DC.  Question: Does rolling a 1 automatically result in failure?  Or did I die because the DC must be beaten, not just matched?

[WhiZard]

1 is automatic failure on saving throws.  20 is automatic success.  The same applies to attack rolls, but not to skill rolls.

[Mr Wuppet]

EDIT: Just realised rolling a 1 results in auto-failure regarding saving throws.

[WhiZard]

To echo what some people have said, only Evocation/Necromancy are really worth getting Spell Focus in, with *possibly* Enchantment as a third if you have feats to spare or the environment makes Evocation and/or Necromancy bad.

 

There are a few that go transmutation- just for flesh to stone- as it is a spell with almost no immunities to prevent it, and creatures that are immune can be distinguished by their appearance.

[MagicalMaster]

I took people's advice and replaced Spell penetration feat with Silent spell, and took Spell focus (Evoc.) at lvl9.

 

I may take Spell penetration feats after lvl15, but what feats do people typically take from lvls 1-20?  If someone could explain to me the reasons as to which feats to take (and when), then that would give me something to think about.

 

But occasionally I roll a 1 and equal the DC.  Question: Does rolling a 1 automatically result in failure?

 

For the record, I suggested *not* replacing Spell Penetration as a Wizard since you have four extra feats, cannot easily convert spells into Breaches on the fly, and suffer more than a Sorcerer from having a spell resisted.  Most people saying "Don't take Spell Penetration" are assuming level 31+ characters and in environments where the author doesn't bother putting higher spell resistance than 32 on enemies at that point.

 

On a Sorcerer, I usually get...

 

Silent/Still

Empower

Maximize

 

That's guaranteed.  I now have four feats left, five if human.

 

Greater Spell Focus: Evocation

Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy

 

Note that some environments do not lend themselves well to one or the other -- if everything has super high reflex then they'll make the saves with or without Evocation focus.  If everything has super high fort or death immunity then the Necromany focus is also worthless.

 

If not human, I'm out of feats (unless I skipped one or more of the above foci).  If human, I have one left.  Options remaining include...

 

Extend Spell (if resting is more limited)

Toughness (more HP)

Craft Wand/Scribe Scroll (if on a Persistent World or a campaign where XP isn't lost on crafting)

Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes (if one or both saving throws would benefit from being shored up)

 

Yes, by default "Auto Fail on 1" is enabled.  I say "enabled" because there's a setting in the nwnplayer.ini file which allows you to change it.  Change

 

Saving Throw Automatic Failure On 1=1

 

to

 

Saving Throw Automatic Failure On 1=0

 

It's a really stupid "feature."  "Oh hello, level 40 Mr. Ancient Red Dragon, I'm a level 5 rogue.  You don't mind if I spam some scrolls of Finger of Death on you with the plan that you have a 5% chance to instantly die each time, right?"  Remove auto-fail on 1 and never look back.  Horrid design.

 

I'll play the devil's advocate and say that Combat Casting is only bad in modules with default expertise behavior or low level range.

If Expertise does not work with spellcasting, then there's really no better combat mode for spellcasters than Defensive casting anyway.

Similarly, if a module encompasses epic levels, Combat Casting is alright just to take Improved Combat Casting.

 

I don't even see a point in getting Expertise in most modules -- unless you invest in lots of AC boosters then you're generally going to be getting hit a lot even with Expertise (assuming the enemy AB is balanced properly...and if it's not then it's so easy you don't need Expertise in the first place).

 

The problem with Combat Casting is that it literally just decreases the DC of Defensive Casting by 4.  So if you're level 4 with 9 Concentration and casting a level two spell, you'd still fail it 35% of the time Defensively Casting even with Combat Casting (55% without).  I'm not going to risk a 35% chance of failing the spell, quite frankly.  And if you're, say, a level 13 caster, you could easily have 16 base Concentration, 18+ Constitution (from 14+ base and buffs/gear), at least 1 Concentration from a helmet, and say 6 Concentration from gloves.  That's 16 + 4 + 1 + 6 = 27, which means even *without* Combat Casting you'll never fail a Defensive Casting check even with a level 9 spell (which, of course, you can't even cast yet).  And getting more Concentration than that is usually pretty easy.  Hell, Skill Focus: Concentration is 75% as good as Combat Casting during Defensive Casting and still provides benefits if you get hit.

 

I don't really usually see a point in ICC either.  At that point you can always just defensively cast if you're worried without failing and it doesn't require losing both a pre-epic and epic feat.  Main exception is an auto-stilled plate wearing caster in (Improved) Expertise.

 

As for empower vs maximize, while what you said about damage is true, it should be noted that Empower requires a lower spell slot. So it really depends on preferences/environment. Actually, there's nothing wrong with taking both empower and maximize. This way you could cast IGMS a whole freaking lot of times.

 

I think he was pointing that empower is way better than maximize. For spells like fireball the damage is equal, for spells like negative energy burst the damage from empower is better than maximize.

 

To quote myself: "Maximize, Empower, and either Silent or Still are all really good."  Meaning you get

 

Maximize, Empower, and Silent

 

or

 

Maximize, Empower, and Still

 

For the default spell system, being able to cast IGMS four times as much is a major reason to take those feats, yes.  And while Empower is a spell slot lower, it also usually gives less of a bonus to compensate.

 

They are in fact not equal on something like Fireball -- Empowered Fireball is 52.5 while Maximized is 60.  Fireball, however (and d6 spells in general), are where the relative benefits are closest to their cost.  Like Shadow said, something like Negative Energy Burst is a joke Maximized but still good Empowered.  On the flip side, Empowering Hammer of the Gods only changes it from 22.5 to 33.75 while Maximizing it gives 40 (Empowered vs Maximized Fireball is a 14% bonus, Empowered vs Maximized HotG is a 19% bonus).  And if you were in a situation where a spell used d12s then you'd get 23% more from Maximizing compared to Empowering.

[MagicalMaster]

This is a new reply because otherwise Bioware's system tries to attribute Whizard's quote to Shadow if I try to edit it into my previous post.

 

There are a few that go transmutation- just for flesh to stone- as it is a spell with almost no immunities to prevent it, and creatures that are immune can be distinguished by their appearance.

 

There are a few problems I see with that spell.

 

1, it's a level 6 spell with a Fortitude save.  Meaning people will save more easily against it than Finger of Death, Destruction, Wail of the Banshee, Implosion, etc.  If the enemy was specifically given Death Magic immunity (to avoid it instantly dying) then a halfway competent module author will also make it immune to Flesh to Stone (for the same reason).

 

2, the most common "standard" enemies immune to Death Magic are constructs and undead.  Flesh to Stone does not work against constructs and also does not work against a good chunk of the undead.  Also, Undeath to Death is also a level 6 spell, benefits from Necromancy focus anyway, can hit multiple enemies (meaning a higher chance of one failing), can be Empowered/Maximized for more castings, and attacks Will rather than Fort which is usually weaker for most undead.

 

So except for a situation like an enemy caster who uses Shadow Shield (for Necromancy immunity (and yes, I'm aware that won't stop Implosion but this player specifically is a Wizard)) but not Spell Mantle, it's hard to find a use for the spell unless the combat design is bad.  And in that case using Bigby's Forceful Hand or IGMS will usually work just as well.

[MrZork]

LOL. I have to say that I was reading a few posts and conjuring up a reply when I see that MM has covered just about every point I was thinking to make. :-) 

 

One slight amplification regarding Undeath to Death saves is that will is the primary save for the undead class. So, lots of enemy undead have a decent will save, particularly those who are also casters. Often, will saves for undead aren't worth much thought, since they are immune to mind effects anyway, but they can be an issue when casting Undeath to Death. Usually, when undead are a concern, I try to keep Undeath to Death on the books, but also have Sunburst ready, so that I can switch to a reflex save spell when needed (and, typically, to take advantage of my toon's evocation focus feats).

[Grani]

Ouuups

[icywind1980]

Just a thought, but if you want to fully edit your character you could download leto and edit out the first feat for something better.

 

http://neverwinterva.../other/leto-169

[MagicalMaster]

LOL. I have to say that I was reading a few posts and conjuring up a reply when I see that MM has covered just about every point I was thinking to make. :-)

 

/tipofthehat

 

One slight amplification regarding Undeath to Death saves is that will is the primary save for the undead class.

 

While true, even a level 40 undead would only have 22 base Will when a level 20 caster can easily have a DC of 10 + 6 + 4 + 12 = 32 DC, so that's nearly a 50% chance to succeed even at half of the enemy's level.  And, in my experience, very few undead actually have the undead class.  Skeletons usually have fighter/rogue/mage/cleric classes (or whatever is appropriate), (demi) liches are mage classes, and so on.

 

Also, I can't speak for all module authors, but I suspect many/most do the same as I do and just figure out what stats we want the enemies to have...and then make that happen by any means necessary.  Which could mean higher *or* lower stats than they "should" have.  And if we're referring to Bioware's campaigns only...then undead have pitiful wills in general outside of maybe some liches.