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Theory; Divine Justinia in the Fade was a Pride Demon.


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#1
Vordish

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I believe that the golden figure seen in the intro after you create your character is really Andraste. I also believe that the "memories" you see in the Fade while speaking with "Justinia" are twisted perversions of the actual truth.

 

Here is some evidence;

 

1. When you approach the breach to seal it for the first time in the intro you hear phrases such as "now is the hour of our victory" and "run while you can, warn them!". The interesting thing is that you also hear this while picking up your so-called "memories" before you see the whole "memory" itself. However, the phrase "run while you can, warn them" is not present in the actual sequences you see concerning Corypheus with the Orb AND the scene where you are climbing the mountain up towards the exit where "Justinia" is standing.

 

If this was truly an actual re-constitution of a memory then all of these pieces would be together. This is also evident by the fact that if you bring Cassandra with you; there is no indication whatsoever of this inconsistency in her dialogue. She was there in the beginning. She heard that phrase warning you to warn them. She mentions nothing about it here. This is a glaring contradiction.

 

This is reinforced by the fact that actual memories would be specific to the Inquisitor himself and would NOT be available to be known by anyone else. There is no lore precedent that would give any human being the ability to take a memory and share it with others. However, remaking the events to form a "vision" in the Fade would actually be more believable.

 

It is also evident that the only reason as to why the Inquisitor and his party were able to enter the Fade alive is by the magic of the mark itself. Indeed, the Inquisitor willfully used the Mark to open a portal to allow them to enter in the first place. Corypheus was using Justinia as some sort of vessel to power the magic He was using to open the rift in the first place, but there isn't any actual substantiated evidence that would prove that because Justinia was being used as such that it would have allowed Her to survive like the Inquisitor in the intro to the game.

 

2. The realm that the Inquisitor is in was the Nightmare itself in the beginning of the game which was evidenced by the spiders that were chasing him/her and that you see when you return to the Nightmare later on in the game. Not only this, but "Justinia" states outright that the Nightmare feeds on the memories of fear and darkness. Fear and Darkness are easily manipulated and the forms change.

 

The Fade itself is a relection of the dreams of mortals and codex entries explicitly state that mortals cannot alter the landscape but the spirits that dwell there can. The only exception to this would be the Maker and/or Andraste. Even more so, it is the usage of the Mark itself that allows the Inquisitor to access these so-called "memories". As such, without the Mark, nothing like this would be possible. Hence, evidence that "Justinia" is not human. It is a spirit.

 

3. The main avenue of evidence to support the theory that Justinia in the Fade is a Pride demon is the underlying theme of Dragon Age: Inquisition itself; Faith.

 

The entire theme is "Faith". Whether or not the Inquisitor speaks/acts on the behalf of Andraste Herself who is supposed to be the Bride of the Maker. There are several times where you are supposed to make a decisions either by action or by words whether or not you are the Herald.

 

"Justinia", in the Fade, refuses to answer directly any question to her identity. According to Leliana this would be reminiscent of her behavior while she was alive. Yet, that is precisely the point if she were, in fact, a Pride Demon. The codex entry to Pride Demons in DAI itself states that they are the ones that resemble man the most. They are as clever as desire demons with a penchant for "cruel irony". They will use mans nature against him. Strong men will crush themselves. Clever men will outwit themselves. Humble men forget themselves...etc.

 

The best and most cruel irony of all would have the Inquisitor doubt himself/herself as to whether or not the Inquisitor actually is the Herald. In addition, the Herald also has to choose whether or not to believe the words of "Justinia" to make it so. Doubt itself tests Faith to make it stronger, sure, but that is based on "FEAR" of being wrong. To deliberately act in a manner that promotes doubt is to play upon the fear itself. Considering the fact that they are in the realm of nightmares in a land that cannot be altered by man that is specific to harboring fear and darkness itself; Justinia here is playing a role that fits the pride demon so well it is practically uncanny.

 

One might argue that it serves no purpose for a Pride Demon to help the Inquisitor escape from the Nightmare, but that is just essentially irrelevant to the issue; Faith. The best deceivers will always act under the guise of righteousness.

 

In addition, the final parting of the "Justinia" before the Nightmare ends is her remark concerning Leliana that she has failed her. This itself is interesting because Leliania outright rejects it and does not believe it. Why? Because her "Faith" in what she knew was stronger than the doubt posed.

 

The strongest rebuttal concerning this theory is Cole himself. I am not of the persuasion that Cole would do anything against this theory because Cole himself is not truly...well, Cole. He is a spirit imitating a human and by the very nature of spirits and humans cannot fully become human. He will always retain a portion of his "spiritness". Cole also has a purpose that is dependant on the spirits will itself and not a singular drive concerning the arguments about Justinia being a Pride Demon.

 

A major piece of evidence that is glossed over is really, I believe, a hint given by the devs when conversing with The Iron Bull. He speaks of the rehabilitators changing the mind of those they are operating on. He described it like a book. Change a word here or add a footnote there. Change the margins and suddenly everything changes. If it is possible to change the outlook then memory itself can be altered as well.

 

The memories in the fade could have very well been altered while they were there being locked away by the Nightmare and/or Justinia herself. Since it was Her giving the memories back to the Inquisitor and only spirits can change the Fade...the memories were not entirely truthful...especially considering the fact that the Inquisitor could not possible know the events of that chamber BEFORE He/she opened the door. He could only hear.

 

As such, I believe that Justinia in the Nightmare was a Pride Demon whose sole focus was to cause doubt to the Inquisitor concerning being the Herald itself. Faith, after all, is the theme. Faith can, in a manner of speaking, destroy the faithful.

 

Makes sense to me. Thoughts?

 

 


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#2
Andraste_Reborn

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As such, I believe that Justinia in the Nightmare was a Pride Demon whose sole focus was to cause doubt to the Inquisitor concerning being the Herald itself. Faith, after all, is the theme. Faith can, in a manner of speaking, destroy the faithful.

 

It only works if you Inquisitor thinks they're the Herald, though, and that's completely optional. For some Inquisitors the Fade might bring about a crisis of faith, but for others it's just confirmation of what they already thought. My Cadash was over the moon to hear an explanation that made sense to her.



#3
Illegitimus

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Not a chance.  The Justinia phantom acted nothing like a pride demon.  No flattery, no attempts to get anyone to accept her into them, and no turning into a gigantic armadillo monster.  The most likely explanation is that she was a faith spirit who took on Justinia's identity and memories as Cole was a spirit of compassion who took on the real Cole's memories.   There's a chance of course that she was in fact the real Justinia's soul, liberated from the bounds of mortality...but probably not.  


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#4
Aulis Vaara

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It's just a spirit of faith. I mean, if the Pope doesn't have a spirit of faith following them around, who does? That is also the reason why she was chosen by Corypheus.

#5
aerisblight

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A demon never helps without wanting something in return.

#6
esper

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My herald never doubted whatever and not she was the herald.

 

She knew she wasn't. Which she said. Every single time she could. she hates that title. Consider it dangerous, human superstition and another attempt to wash away her dalish background.

 

So the spirit in the Fade was a help to her. And made her feel a little better because now she at least had something to say everytime somebody mention that the glowing lady must be Andraste,



#7
Sah291

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I think she was probably a spirit. I think someone in another thread said she is labeled with the name "Serenity" when you hover the mouse over her. I have the game on ps4 so maybe someone else can verify if that is true? Spirits and demons in the game are usually named after some aspect of what they represent. Anyway I'm not sure if that would make her a spirit of faith, or just something similar, like a spirit of peace, or hope. Which explains why she is as powerful as she is against Nightmare.

I agree though the whole vagueness about what she is was probably done on purpose to make you question, and/or understand the concept of faith.

Then again, I also think it's possible the orb might have contained a memory of Andraste, or maybe Mythal.
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#8
BloodyTalon

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It was a being of faith that  makes the most sense given its helpful nature and who it was mostly an echo of .

That fact the questions it causes to be brought up and so on, there is no faith without doubt.

A pride demon would have wanted something in return from you, and wouldn't have gave its help so freely nor ended its own life



#9
Guildmasterron

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I am more inclined to believe that this was the spirit of Justinia herself. How she answered questions and her sacrifice in the end was in keeping with her observed personality.


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#10
BloodyTalon

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I am more inclined to believe that this was the spirit of Justinia herself. How she answered questions and her sacrifice in the end was in keeping with her observed personality.

Or an echo of her, remember mortals shape the fade through actions and just being themselves, but could have been her directly also



#11
teh DRUMPf!!

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A demon never helps without wanting something in return.

 

iirc, the Inquisitor & party actually banish Nightmare to another end of the Fade by reaching/closing that rift.

 

It could be argued that the "spirit" just wanted control of that realm all along.



#12
ndw542

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While I appreciate the effort and thought that went into this wall of text, it's not sitting on a very firm foundation. As a couple of others have said, the entire argument seems to be predicated on the assumtion that the PC is an Andrastian. In 7-8 playthroughs, that's never been the case for me; my PCs hace always come out feeling troubled by the memories they recovered, but ultimately vindicated by confirmation that the mark was the result of a misfired spell.

I'll grant two of your points as valid: 1) that the PC's recovered memories shouldn't have included a view of the interior of the chamber prior to his or her entry; and 2) some of the dialogue between the prologue and fade sequences don't match up perfectly. That said, I personally find it much more likely that both are either products of intentional artistic license or minor and forgivable dev oversights, rather than intentional, extremely subtle narrative devices.

Probably the worst blow to this theory is the point that many others have made - namely, that the entity didn't act remotely in the manner that the series has previously established that demons behave. Even if you assume its efforts in guiding the party through the fade were a part of some self-serving mind game, its sacrifice when the party comes upon the Nightmare itself was unambiguously altruistic. It didnt seek to possess any member of the party or to escape the fade, nor did it ask any favor of the PC, save for forgiveness. It asked for forgiveness from the player when it became clear that it was not Justinia herself, and it asked that the player ask Leliana for her forgiveness upon exiting. None of these actions fall within established demonic characterizarion.

Finally, in relation to that last point: unless I'm mistaken, Leliana hadn't been mentioned during the fade sequence prior to that point, which tends to indicate that the entity was, if not some remnant of Justinia herself, either acquainted with Justinia or in possession of some of her memories. The bottom line is that it was clearly left intentionally ambiguous.
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#13
Ariella

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iirc, the Inquisitor & party actually banish Nightmare to another end of the Fade by reaching/closing that rift.
 
It could be argued that the "spirit" just wanted control of that realm all along.


Right before the battle with the nightmare the Divine rises up, takes spirit form, and attacks the Nightmare. She, for all intents and purposes, dies in that moment.

Also if you take Dorian in, he comments that if the Divine were a demon she wouldn't have simply volunteered to help, she would have wanted something first. But she also wasn't acting like a spirit either.

I'm almost certain she's something unique. I also think a lot of the odd little things about Leliana can be traced back to her. No proof, just gut instinct.

#14
zambingo

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My Quizzy was all "I dunno. Maybe. Why not? Let's all just try to get along." in regards to all things Faith. That said, Fade Justinia doesn't act like a Pride Demon or any demon in my experience. Doesn't mean she wasn't, I guess, but Quizzy and Friends didn't have to give her anything at least consciously and she didn't seem to take anything at least consciously and she helped. So as to what she is, I dunno but she seemed alright.

:-)

#15
DarkKnightHolmes

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A demon never helps without wanting something in return.

 

"True tests never end" - Demon from Mage Origin.


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#16
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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"True tests never end" - Demon from Mage Origin.

 

After all of these years, I still love that little line.

 

 

I don't know what to say about the OP. This whole story pisses me off. It's not an interesting discussion of faith, no matter what the truth is. I'm more worried about everyone else's faith though. The fact that they so easily believe in me. Not whether I believe in myself. It's one thing for my own character to look stupid. It's another when almost every other character looks stupid too. It makes me sad about the setting. Most of them don't even talk to you about it..There's no set up at all. it's just one word from a passerby in the intro and suddenly everyone gives you free handjobs. It might've been cool if it was funny like Life of Brian though.



#17
Heyokah

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It wasn't Justinia.  It was Solas' "friend" before being summoned to Thedas and subsequently turned into a Pride Demon.

 

Now we can all be happy.

 

I may have the chronology wrong, it has been a while, but I do not believe that particular personal quest of Solas' opens up until after you have ventured into the fade.  Please correct me if I am wrong.  

 

As to why Solas would not recognize his "friend"....well A.  The spirit was in a different place from what he was accustomed to and B.  It had taken the form and memories of Justinia.

 

Heck if I know - just a random thought as I was reading the thread.



#18
Uirebhiril

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It wasn't Justinia.  It was Solas' "friend" before being summoned to Thedas and subsequently turned into a Pride Demon.

 

I may have the chronology wrong, it has been a while, but I do not believe that particular personal quest of Solas' opens up until after you have ventured into the fade.  Please correct me if I am wrong.  

 

 

Nah. You can do Solas's personal quest as soon as you hit Skyhold, as long as you have high enough approval.



#19
Heyokah

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Well shucks.  I always tended to neglect Solas.  

 

Oh wait - maaaaybe it is his friend after that quest.

 

:P



#20
Uirebhiril

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Seriously, do you never talk to Solas? The spirit died and would take a long time to reform, if it ever did. :P



#21
Ariella

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Seriously, do you never talk to Solas? The spirit died and would take a long time to reform, if it ever did. :P


And it was a spirit of Wisdom. If anything, whatever the IQ dealt with in the Fade was connected to Faith.

#22
Heyokah

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So Solas's "friend" had faith in Solas and Solas had faith in the IQ.  One last gesture of faith in friendship  :P

 

I did have a playthrough where I romanced Solas on a female toon and was so put off by it I stopped listening to him altogether.



#23
Ariella

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So Solas's "friend" had faith in Solas and Solas had faith in the IQ.  One last gesture of faith in friendship  :P
 
I did have a playthrough where I romanced Solas on a female toon and was so put off by it I stopped listening to him altogether.


Yeah, Solas can be a bit preachy. But the thing is spirits embody certain traits.

I haven't seen it, but as my husband was describing the new Pixar film, Inside Out, the emotions in the girl's mind sound exactly like spirits. Faith, Wisdom, Justice, they're avatars. And they aren't as complex as mortals as a result.

It's the reason, I think, that Cole acts like a young child. He's just developing the capasity for other emotions besides Compassion. Which indicates it's possible for spirits to grow beyond their original purpose, but that's not what happened to Solas friend. It was warped by those who summoned it.

#24
Drasanil

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I doubt it was any sort of demon, let alone a pride one. Because it did one thing completely antithetical to a demon's nature it suicide bombed itself to give you a chance of escape. There's no winning upside for a demon in that, no matter which way you cut it, because demons are inherently selfish. 

 

As for it telling you to tell Leliana she's sorry for failing her, do Leliana's personal quest where she receives a posthumous message from Justinia and it becomes pretty evident what it meant by failing her.

 

If anything the message supports the notion it was something more than just a mere spirit helping out and that perhaps a piece of Justinia lived on.


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#25
Heyokah

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Yeah, Solas can be a bit preachy. But the thing is spirits embody certain traits.

I haven't seen it, but as my husband was describing the new Pixar film, Inside Out, the emotions in the girl's mind sound exactly like spirits. Faith, Wisdom, Justice, they're avatars. And they aren't as complex as mortals as a result.

It's the reason, I think, that Cole acts like a young child. He's just developing the capasity for other emotions besides Compassion. Which indicates it's possible for spirits to grow beyond their original purpose, but that's not what happened to Solas friend. It was warped by those who summoned it.

While I do feel that you are correct that Wisdom spirit was corrupted only for a time and then freed from the shackles that bound it - and then it returned to have a momentary conversation with Solas as it once was.  Once freed it returned to the Fade and as Solas said it would be "different".

 

You give a compelling argument as to why I am incorrect, and I tend to agree with you, however if the entity encountered in the Fade was not Justinia or some random spirit then I believe that Solas' "friend" would be the answer.

 

Of course I say this only because in all of my playthroughs I helped free the Wisdom spirit.  I admit I am not aware of any dialog that takes place, if any, if you decide to kill it.