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[CovertAgents]

Really, though. Think about it:

Old Gods: Obviously real.

Elven Pantheon: Hey, Solas!

Avvar Pantheon: JoH answers that

Dwarven Stone: So real that there's a god the dwarves didn't even remember exists!

 

Now, I'm not saying the Maker isn't real, I'm just saying apparently every other God is obviously real. And while it's mildly ambiguous as to the extent each is actually a God (The Titans are, quite literally, just titans, the Avvar's may be merely Spirits, Solas is ambiguous as to whether they are really deities, and the Old Gods seem to specialize in whispering and getting tainted) they clearly exist. Is any God, save the Maker, still unseen at this point?

[YourFunnyUncle]

It's pretty clear that all the the other "gods" are powerful magical creatures, but not omnipotent world-creators in the manner that the Maker or the god of the Abrahamic faiths on Earth are supposed to be, so the question, as you suggest, becomes whether you choose to define them as gods or indeed consider them worthy of worship at all.

[Deztyn]

Silly heretic, Thedas is the proof of The Maker's existence. It's proven right here:

There was no word
For heaven or for earth, for sea or sky.
All that existed was silence.
Then the Voice of the Maker rang out,
The first Word,
And His Word became all that might be:
Dream and idea, hope and fear,
Endless possibilities.

Those beings you mentioned aren't gods, merely powerful spirits and mages and such.

Here's more proof:

As there is but one world,
One life, one death, there is
But one god, and He is our Maker.
They are sinners, who have given their love
To false gods.

[thats1evildude]

What's interesting is that the other faiths don't deny the existence of a creator deity, even if he doesn't figure into their pantheon. Even the elven myths essentially agree that the world was always there and their gods were born from it.

 

The exception is obviously the Qun, which denies the existence of any gods (and is starting to look kinda ridiculous at this point).

[YourFunnyUncle]

The exception is obviously the Qun, which denies the existence of any gods (and is starting to look kinda ridiculous at this point).

Well I have many issues with the Qun, but I don't see how that particular doctrine is ridiculous at all. As I mentioned all the provably real "gods" don't necessarily merit that title.

[Deztyn]

What's interesting is that the other faiths don't deny the existence of a creator deity, even if he doesn't figure into their pantheon. Even the elven myths essentially agree that the world was always there and their gods were born from it.

The exception is obviously the Qun, which denies the existence of any gods (and is starting to look kinda ridiculous at this point).

Gaider posted about that years ago. Might not be entirely accurate anymore, but still worth reading.

The cult of the Old Gods (I don't call it "the Tevinter religion" mainly because that, to me, speaks of the Imperial Chantry -- which is based in today's Tevinter Imperium) didn't contradict the existence of the Maker. Quite the opposite. The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world. The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created. The Old Gods were outside of the Creator's Plan and showed up to whisper to mankind and teach them magic. According to the Chantry, they turned mankind away from their regard for a remote Creator (who ruled remotely and never interacted with his own creations) and that this is what made the Creator abandon the Golden City... though there is argument that the cult believed the Creator had abandoned it long before and that they were adrift, rescued by the Old Gods. Modern sages say that this is attempt to explain the hardships that the early human civilizations faced, and not evidence of the Maker actually being absent.

So when Andraste showed up much, much later, she was advocating a return to the "rightful" worship of the Maker... it was not a belief that came out of nowhere.

As for the elves, their understanding of their own religion is incomplete. The whole truth was lost along with Arlathan and their immortality -- much of their lore was kept by a tradition of apprenticeship, handed down from the knowledgeable to the young, and this relied on the fact that the knowledgeable were eternal. Slaves also had less opportunity to spread their lore, so the sudden aging of the knowledgeable meant that much of this information was simply gone after several generations. This, of course, is their belief: the ancient Imperium maintained that the elves were never immortal to begin with, and that their lore was lost simply because the Imperium forbade its teaching.

Even so, the ancient elves did write things down, and so some scraps have been recovered. Thus the Dalish have slowly reassembled a religion from those pieces of lore, though how complete it is cannot be known. Even so, a few things are factual. For one, the original elven religion predates the cult of the Old Gods by a long time. Could the Old Gods have been based on the elven gods? Possibly, but there's nothing to suggest the elven gods were ever dragons, and certainly the contempt the Imperium held for elven culture makes it unlikely that they would think elven gods were worth worshipping. Consider also that it was the Old Gods that taught humanity its magic and encouraged them to destroy Arlathan -- why would elven gods do this? One could point to the Forgotten Ones (look at the codex entry on Fen'Harel for their mention) and suggest that they had reason for vengeance, though that would probably be against Fen'Harel and their good brethren and not against the elven people themselves, no? Still, all of that depends on how much of the knowledge given by Dalish tales is complete.

In terms of the elven religion's view of the Maker (or lack thereof), it might be interesting to point out that the elven creation myth doesn't stem from their gods. According to Dalish understanding, Elgar'nan and Mythal, the Father and the Mother, did not create the world. They were born of the world. The world was always there, and while it doesn't indicate the presence of a single creator that made the world it also doesn't necessarily contradict it.

The modern Chantry, however, does say that all these other gods are false. It doesn't say they never existed (though the elven legends are dismissed as just that, for the most part, but that's a carry-over of Imperial belief), but merely suggests that the Maker was long ago forgotten and that He is the only god that is worthy of true worship. The fact that His creations turned away from Him is shameful, and it is only by proving our worth to Him once again that the world will become the paradise He intended.

All of this is, of course, open to interpretation. That's part of the point of faith, if you ask me. Were some god to appear on earth and tell everyone How It Really Is that would destroy the very idea of faith -- though at that point one would have to ask: is such a being really a god? What is a god? What ideas are really worth worship? To me, that's the notion that's worth exploring. Beyond that, all conjecture is welcome.

(I miss him. )

Edit: added quotes and stuff

[mat_mark]

Silly heretic, Thedas is the proof of The Maker's existence. It's proven right here:

Those beings you mentioned aren't gods, merely powerful spirits and mages and such.

Here's more proof:
 

 

 

Basically you're saying that The Chant of Light is right because it says so...

Seems legit.

[Ariella]

Deztyn,

Thanks for posting that. It's interesting.

And my feeling is it's still accurate. Plus I'm hoping that the question of the Maker never gets answered. I like the idea of a fantasy world where a deity exists, but isn't obviously manifest.

[Forsythia77]

Not only that, but the elven father deity (Elgar'nan) contended with his own creator (the Sun) in their myths. And yet, they don't explain who the Sun was.. but it's someone that existed before Elgar'nan and Mythal. It's not like they are ultimate creators themselves, even to the elves. The elves revere them only because they want to.

 

Oddly enough, Andraste's religion brought back symbols of the sun. What that has to do with the Maker though, I don't know. 

 

In Ancient Egypt, the sun is the symbol of Ra - the creator.  The sun is also known as the Eye of Ra.  So symbols of the sun and eye could harken to that if you wanted to compare it to something in our world?  It's interesting imagery nonetheless.  Andrastian religion reminds me a lot of Catholicism.  And of course in Christian religions the halo around saints heads in imagery is evocative of the sun and the light.

 

This is as deep as I get on a Thursday afternoon.  

[Dai Grepher]

Really, though. Think about it:

Old Gods: Obviously real.

Elven Pantheon: Hey, Solas!

Avvar Pantheon: JoH answers that

Dwarven Stone: So real that there's a god the dwarves didn't even remember exists!

 

Now, I'm not saying the Maker isn't real, I'm just saying apparently every other God is obviously real. And while it's mildly ambiguous as to the extent each is actually a God (The Titans are, quite literally, just titans, the Avvar's may be merely Spirits, Solas is ambiguous as to whether they are really deities, and the Old Gods seem to specialize in whispering and getting tainted) they clearly exist. Is any God, save the Maker, still unseen at this point?

 

Obviously real, and obviously not gods. The Chant teaches that the old gods of Tevinter are false gods that turned mankind away from the Maker. For that sin the Maker imprisoned them all underground. Come to find out, that's exactly where they are. This is evidence for the Maker's existence. What other being could have trapped all seven of these flying grand dragons underground simultaneously? You might argue that the titans could manage it, but again, they would have to get all seven of them at once. The dragons would be moving around constantly, be in different locations, and would be able to fly away at the first sign of trouble. I doubt the titans could move to each of their locations and coordinate a capture and imprison effort.

 

Solas confirms that the elven pantheon is not a group of gods, but rather a group of powerful beings each with their own special talents.

 

The Avvar worship Fade spirits. They have no true god.

 

The titans aren't gods. They did not create the stone, as what's-her-name says. The stone was always there. The titans just shape it. Whether the dwarves were created from the titans or the stone is another issue, and I think the jury is still out on that one. But the titans would no more be gods for creating the dwarves than the magisters would be for creating the kossith.
 

I think the fact the Maker is unseen is good evidence that he is real and is the one true god within the Dragon Age storyline. Obviously they're not going to show the Maker, because that would end all debate. But based on how Origins' intro is presented, I think BioWare was saying that what the Chant says is true.

 

I also think the games show evidence of the Maker's existence through the effects of his actions.

[Dr. Doctor]

I'm thinking that if the Maker exists he might be the Sun mentioned in the Dalish lore.

The Titans have the ability to reshape the world as they see fit, and the Maker's lore has him existing in a Golden City and having flame/sunburst motifs as a part of his iconography.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Problem is, not every god from every pantheon (in this world or Thedas) is believed to be "omnipotent world-creators" like the Maker or the god of Abrahamic faiths. That's just one religion's/culture's view of what constitutes divinity, and who's to say that view from that one culture is the one right one?

According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, a "god" is:

"God : the perfect and all-powerful spirit or being that is worshipped especially by Christians, Jews, and Muslims as the one who created and rules the universe"

"a spirit or being that has great power, strength, knowledge, etc., and that can affect nature and the lives of people : one of various spirits or beings worshipped in some religions"

By the former definition, maybe they aren't gods. By the latter? Absolutely. (And most non-Abrahamic real-world religions subscribe to the latter.)

Besides, who's to say the Maker isn't also just another powerful magical creature? There's no proof shown in the games that He exists, and even if He does there's no proof that He's exactly as the Chantry describes, or that He did all the things they said He did. For all we know, the "Maker" is just a very powerful Fade spirit created and fueled by the faith of millions, just like how Nightmare was created and fueled by the terrors of mortals.

That's exactly the point I was making. It's about how you define "god" and whether you find such creatures to be worthy of worship even should you choose to define them as such. If you do worship them, are you doing so because you believe that they'll help you or simply so as not to incur their wrath?

[TeffexPope]

I'm assuming that bioware will always leave the existence of the Maker an ambiguous thing. For them to somehow prove or show him, would be pretty silly, but for them to try to affirmitively state that he does not exist would be a bit weird and seem too much like an anti-religious statement, given they've clearly modeled the Chantry and Andraste after the Catholic church and a mix of Mohammed and Jesus, respectively.

[Reznore57]

Well Solas who should know some stuff we don't know about the world , doesn't believe in the Maker.

Now he doesn't dismiss his existance , but clearly he can't be bothered to put too much thoughts in the Chantry faith.

It means a couple of things , the ancient elves were living in Thedas way before the humans , Solas knows about the Golden city , and the Old Gods underground and the Blight.

 

Still he doesn't believe a higher power is responsible for any of it ....

 

I'm pretty sure the elves build the Golden City .

It annoyed me a great deal in DAI we didn't go there or we didn't touch on anything Andraste related.(a lot of miracles she was supposed to have performed is dismissed in WOT2)

I wonder if they'll ever drop the bomb of the city is elven because the Golden City and the magisters walking there and the Blight is one of the core teachings in the chantry.

You take that away and you're left with a Maker who really hasn't done anything except building the world maybe.

[Andromelek]

We won't know for a simple reason, the Chantry is basically an equivalent to the Christian Church, so, proving the Maker real or unreal would be too controversial and could offend some people, if it remains on mystery, people can take their own conclusions and no one will be offended.

[YourFunnyUncle]

We won't know for a simple reason, the Chantry is basically an equivalent to the Christian Church, so, proving the Maker real or unreal would be too controversial and could offend some people, if it remains on mystery, people can take their own conclusions and no one will be offended.

It's not the Christian church though, is it? It's a rough analogue in a series of games (and books and comics.) If anyone were truly offended by a fictional deity being proved "true" or "false" then I'd suggest that they may need to reconsider their priorities, but it would kind of deflate many of the conflicts and RP opportunities that BioWare have set up in the universe...

[Ariella]

We won't know for a simple reason, the Chantry is basically an equivalent to the Christian Church, so, proving the Maker real or unreal would be too controversial and could offend some people, if it remains on mystery, people can take their own conclusions and no one will be offended.

Yes, the Chantry is a loose analog of the Roman Catholic Church, but the majority of people who are going to be offended would be offended by the entire premise of the game.

I expect Bioware will answer the question of the Maker about five minutes after we get an answer about the Abrahamic God.

Now, I'm pretty damned far from being Christian, but there's actually a quote from Hebrews 11 about faith that I like:

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not see.

In Val Royeaux there is a chantry mother and a chantry sister discussing the attack on Haven. The sister points out that the Old Gods are real, and the mother replies that it is not their existance that is in doubt but their nature... It's an interesting conversation if you can find it.

[Andromelek]

Hey don't turn at me! I'm careless about religion as long they don't try to do something that could affect me, I just pointed it out because I know those kind of people, they like to take any idiotic argument to argue about.

[Dabrikishaw]

We won't know for a simple reason, the Chantry is basically an equivalent to the Christian Church, so, proving the Maker real or unreal would be too controversial and could offend some people, if it remains on mystery, people can take their own conclusions and no one will be offended.

While it's not really the Christian Church, this is basically the correct answer. The Chantry is based on some equivalency of one of our real world religions, so it's off the table to confirm or deny the Maker's existence.

[Ariella]

Hey don't turn at me! I'm careless about religion as long they don't try to do something that could affect me, I just pointed it out because I know those kind of people, they like to take any idiotic argument to argue about.

Not trying to jump on you. Just saying the guys who are going to get pissed at this are the type who want to pull Harry Potter from the shelves.

Street Magic,

Sorry I'm not quoting you, but I'm on mobile and trying to edit so I can make specific points without turning this post into the wall o' text is impossible.

That said, I understand what you're saying. Don't completely agree but understand. I think part of the problem was the fact that Bioware overcorrected. If there was a story that needed more focused protagonist approach, this was it.

I know a majority of people mourn the origins, but honestly, I felt disconnected from them. Even the Cousland origin with Howe. Hawke didn't practically severe all ties the moment s/he arrived in Kirkwall. Even with all the crap surrounding DA 2, I found Hawke more engaging than my Warden because Hawke's life from before the game still wove through.

If they'd done as originally intended (and this is where I am going to be murder knifed) and gone with the human protagonist, the story could have easily been played on both a personal stage and a broader world stage.

It also doesn't help that they folded Exalted Marches into this. Having a much longer involved story on the mage templar war could have played on those elements and how faith brought everything about.

I'd happily put up with a single race protag, especially if it varied based on the story they were telling, if it allowed for deeper character development through the entire game.

I swear DA 2 was Yeats' The Second Coming.
http://www.poetryfou...org/poem/172062

The middle of the first stanza and the last two lines.

[Avejajed]

Really, though. Think about it:
Old Gods: Obviously real.
Elven Pantheon: Hey, Solas!
Avvar Pantheon: JoH answers that
Dwarven Stone: So real that there's a god the dwarves didn't even remember exists!

Now, I'm not saying the Maker isn't real, I'm just saying apparently every other God is obviously real. And while it's mildly ambiguous as to the extent each is actually a God (The Titans are, quite literally, just titans, the Avvar's may be merely Spirits, Solas is ambiguous as to whether they are really deities, and the Old Gods seem to specialize in whispering and getting tainted) they clearly exist. Is any God, save the Maker, still unseen at this point?

What if some of the "gods" are actually the same beings, like... old god-elvish god-forgotten ones-etc... all one group, like, June is a Titan, but the elves call him by a different name. Cultures attributing their own history on to each diety, like Mythal could be the Lady of the Skies.

This is just a unorganized theory with no basis in fact, but its fun to think about lol