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[Lazarillo]

While it's not really the Christian Church, this is basically the correct answer. The Chantry is based on some equivalency of one of our real world religions, so it's off the table to confirm or deny the Maker's existence.

 

That hasn't necessarily stopped other games from trying it anyway.  I kind of appreciate the DA series not expounding to much on it just because it feels kind of refreshing not to have to deal with such a plot.

 

Honestly, I really felt the same about the series' various other mythologies, too, but I suppose that ship has now sailed.

[BansheeOwnage]

Basically all of the "gods" are proven to exist, but are not really gods. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happens to the Maker. Some sort of super Spirit of Faith, perhaps? I like the theory that the Maker didn't exist originally, but was brought into being as a spirit by enough people believing in him.

 

Also, a lot of them seem connected, possibly overlapping. Misinterpretations of the same thing?

[Magdalena11]

I think the reason the Maker is still absent is because the humans aren't looking in the right places.  Even the deities or spirits we've seen physically represented in game have only been material reflections of their Fade forms, which are pure magic shaped by belief.  

 

I'll talk about the elven pantheon because it's the easiest.  We've seen Mythal and Fen'Harel, Xebenkeck, Gaxkang, and Imshael.  But, they haven't always existed in their current forms.  Mythal can appear as the human woman who offered her shelter, or a dragon, or a bird, and Fen'Harel is pictured as a canine.  Xebenkeck appeared as a desire demon, and Gaxkang initially as an arcane horror.  Imshael looked like the guy who sat behind me in history class, wearing Anders' robe.

 

So how would people recognize the Maker if He walked up and said hi?  Are there any actual likenesses of the Maker?  What if he shaved his beard?

 

Take a theory that's been around for a while:  Sandal may be the Maker.

 

Can you disprove it?  Have you met his mother?  What's the biological father's name?  Maybe the Maker just decided to take a turn in the Deep Roads and got misplaced.  How did Sandal, a dwarf with no magic or tools, make a rune that froze an ogre?  Dagna, brilliant as she is, could only make a rune that destroys armor, and she had some pretty hot custom tools.  

 

You can never prove something does not exist.  Remember when they discovered the Coelacanth in the '70s?  All the papers said how they'd found a living dinosaur and it was a miracle.  Turns out, there's a whole colony of them near Madagascar.  The Scots have been sailing with the Loch Ness Monster for how long and no one's seen one that anyone believed, ultimately?  A few doors down from where I lived was an old inn George Washington slept in.  The well was supposed to be haunted by the ghost of a serving girl, and it turns out to have been swamp gas from rotting potato peelings.  I used to cross the street and walk on the other side at dusk and dawn, just in case, you never know.  Servants did sometimes fall in the well.

[Brass_Buckles]

Basically all of the "gods" are proven to exist, but are not really gods. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happens to the maker. Some sort of super Spirit of Faith, perhaps? I like the theory that the Maker didn't exist originally, but was brought into being as a spirit by enough people believing in him.

 

Also, a lot of them seem connected, possibly overlapping. Misinterpretations of the same thing?

 

A spirit of some kind actually makes sense, when you take into account the Avvar belief that they can sing a new god into existence (and their gods are powerful spirits).  What is the point of the Chantry?  To spread the Chant of Light all across the world to all people, so that the Maker takes notice again.  Maybe it's actually because they need enough people to believe in their version of Andrastianism to create a Maker spirit powerful enough to actually fill the role.  Unfortunately for them, pretty much everyone interprets their given religion a little differently from everyone else who believes.  Faith is a very personal thing.  So whether they could create a Maker or not, it's unclear.

 

As for gods being proven real, the dwarves do point out to you that the Stone isn't a god, and they don't worship Her.  Valta thinks the Titans are less than the Stone, but since the Stone sings through lyrium, the Titans might actually BE the Stone.  Hard to say.

 

I think the reason the Maker is still absent is because the humans aren't looking in the right places.  Even the deities or spirits we've seen physically represented in game have only been material reflections of their Fade forms, which are pure magic shaped by belief.  

 

I'll talk about the elven pantheon because it's the easiest.  We've seen Mythal and Fen'Harel, Xebenkeck, Gaxkang, and Imshael.  But, they haven't always existed in their current forms.  Mythal can appear as the human woman who offered her shelter, or a dragon, or a bird, and Fen'Harel is pictured as a canine.  Xebenkeck appeared as a desire demon, and Gaxkang initially as an arcane horror.  Imshael looked like the guy who sat behind me in history class, wearing Anders' robe.

 

Just going to point out here that the Forbidden Ones are demons, and, as far as I know, not part of the elven pantheon (unless I'm totally forgetting some DA:O codex entry).  You are probably thinking of the Forgotten Ones, aka Anaris and company, whom we have not met.  Or at least, whom it is assumed we have not met - it is possible that Felassan's master was one of them, though it's more widely believed that Felassan served Fen'harel (there's evidence to the contrary however unless Fen'harel's personality was written to be entirely different between the writing of Masked Empire and the writing of DA:I).

[ComedicSociopathy]

The Maker's never gonna show up. The whole point of him within the narrative of Thedas is that his existence is a matter of faith not fact. If he were to show up in any future games that would defeat his entire purpose. Then again, this theme kind of falls on it's face when Andraste didn't have to rely on faith during her crusade against Tevinter but had the opportunity to actually talk to the Maker and become his bride, thus confirming her beliefs, but whatever. 

 

So, yeah, the Creators, the Stone and the Old Gods are more "real" in that their beings whose existence and power are based in fact not faith and that their worshipers weren't praying to things they might have made up because of their wild imaginations and ignorance. That said, depending on what you consider to be worthy of the title god, an omnipotent Creator figure or just simply a thing or being that's worshiped by someone regardless of actual power, it's entirely possible to discount the elven, dwarven and old gods as being false since none of them seem to fit the role of a Creator figure. 

[draken-heart]

It is obvious that the "Maker" is the original creator of the Dragon age universe. How is that impossible to see?

[Aulis Vaara]

The Maker is the Sun from elven mythology. The Sunburst sign, the scorching heat to bring Tevinter to its knees with Andraste, the fact that "the Land" also exists (in the form of Titans), and the golden light in the Golden City that goes missing shortly before Andraste. Too many coincidences to be a coincidence.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The issue here is the disparity in the definition of gods that Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic religions have.

 

The concept of Maker as a god follows the Abrahamic definition of gods whereas the concept of Dalish Pantheon, Avvar Pantheon, Old Gods, the Stone follow the non-Abrahamic definition of gods. So in a sense, they are all gods.

 

Having said that, based on the lore knowledge we have at the moment, the Maker is most likely a very powerful Spirit of Faith residing in some corner of the Fade. He is probably not very different from the Avvar gods except He gives zero f**ks about what is happening in the world.

 

Additionally, the Maker can be the Sun because it is the Sun that gives life to all things that live on the surface of the Earth. However, if that is the case, then the Dalish Pantheon is superior because Elgar'nan made the Sun his b**ch once and only relented because of Mythal. Sorry Andrastians.

[TEWR]

Bah, I've never been a person who gives any credence to the notion that gods have to be perfect and flawless to be gods.

 

Same deal goes with God, and in DA's case, the Maker.

[Sifr]

Bah, I've never been a person who gives any credence to the notion that gods have to be perfect and flawless to be gods.

 

Same deal goes with God, and in DA's case, the Maker.

 

Yeah, the Chant isn't exactly selling me with their whole notion of a Maker who's an emotionally distant father-figure that spurns his creations over petty reasons and/or because they don't live up to his standards.

 

I mean, the Chant even repeats the exact same line about how he created spirits and mankind, before retreating into the Golden City to watch and hoping that his creation would prove themselves... so why exactly do humans in Dragon Age believe they are a special snowflake?

 

For all they know, the Maker has moved onto his next project, having created a magic talking leopard and forgotten all about them?

 

(Or for bonus irony, his new pet project are the Qunari)

 

[Ariella]

Yeah, the Chant isn't exactly selling me with their whole notion of a Maker who's an emotionally distant father-figure that spurns his creations over petty reasons and/or because they don't live up to his standards.

Of course this is why people like Rodrick and what's her name who got smacked in Val Royeaux are afraid of the Herald, because if the IQ is really an instrument of the Maker's will, the the Chant got it wrong.

I mean, the Chant even repeats the exact same line about how he created spirits and mankind, before retreating into the Golden City to watch and hoping that his creation would prove themselves... so why exactly do humans in Dragon Age believe they are a special snowflake?

Andraste. No other race can claim the Bride of the Maker as their own. Thus the special snowflakeness.

[Sifr]

And that's probably a major reason why the Imperial Chantry is seen as heretical to the point that wearing their Chantry symbol can get you hung in the South... as by making Andraste just a powerful mage with absolutely no divine favour whatsoever, the Vints have taken away the one special quality that humans might claim to have that proves they are "better" than everyone else.

[Ariella]

And that's probably a major reason why the Imperial Chantry is seen as heretical to the point that wearing their Chantry symbol can get you hung in the South... as by making Andraste just a powerful mage with absolutely no divine favour whatsoever, the Vints have taken away the one special quality that humans might claim to have that proves they are "better" than everyone else.

There were some heretical groups as the Catholic Church was estabishing itself that said similar.

They were wiped out, of course, but that's the reason the Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed are written the way they are.

[Sifr]

There were some heretical groups as the Catholic Church was estabishing itself that said similar.

They were wiped out, of course, but that's the reason the Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed are written the way they are.

 

Yeah, you can definitely see the parallels with how the Church and the Chantry were formed and their early history, especially when it came to adopting a "canon" version of the doctrine and leaving everything that they didn't like in the bin, while persecuting those who held beliefs that contradicted them.

 

Perhaps Thedas has it's own equivalent to the Dead Sea Scrolls (the "Boeric Sea Scrolls" perhaps?), containing a bunch of these early alternate versions that were hidden away for being too controversial or contradicting other parts, that'd give a lot more insight into both the Chant that remains or those that have been rended as part of the Dissonant Verses, like Shartan or Maferath.

 

Actually, would be nice to see that early coded Chantry scroll we can find for Sister Justine in Origins ends up coming back into play at some point down the line, since it was both from the Temple of Sacred Ashes (and now is one of the few remaining relics) and seems to have been written by those whom might have actually known Andraste?

[Ranadiel Marius]

Perhaps Thedas has it's own equivalent to the Dead Sea Scrolls (the "Boeric Sea Scrolls" perhaps?), containing a bunch of these early alternate versions that were hidden away for being too controversial or contradicting other parts, that'd give a lot more insight into both the Chant that remains or those that have been rended as part of the Dissonant Verses, like Shartan or Maferath.

Well there is the Canticle of Silence (or at least I think that is its name) in WoT2. If I recall correctly, it was removed from the chant for being written from the perspective of the Maker, and it happens to have ridiculously accurate detail on the invasion of the Golden City for something written so long afterwards. Not sure how common it actually is in Thedas. Doubt the Imperial Chantry has any copies since it blames the Magister Sidreal for the Darkspawn.

[Knight of Dane]

At this point anything can literally be "just powerful spirits"

[Ariella]

Yeah, you can definitely see the parallels with how the Church and the Chantry were formed and their early history, especially when it came to adopting a "canon" version of the doctrine and leaving everything that they didn't like in the bin, while persecuting those who held beliefs that contradicted them.
 
Perhaps Thedas has it's own equivalent to the Dead Sea Scrolls (the "Boeric Sea Scrolls" perhaps?), containing a bunch of these early alternate versions that were hidden away for being too controversial or contradicting other parts, that'd give a lot more insight into both the Chant that remains or those that have been rended as part of the Dissonant Verses, like Shartan or Maferath.
 
Actually, would be nice to see that early coded Chantry scroll we can find for Sister Justine in Origins ends up coming back into play at some point down the line, since it was both from the Temple of Sacred Ashes (and now is one of the few remaining relics) and seems to have been written by those whom might have actually known Andraste?

Since the scrolls have a tile in the Keep, we might see a little something. It'd be nice if that ended up being the Thedas version of the Dead Sea Scrolls. I have to wonder though about the riddle guardians in the Temple. Were they asking questions based on the Chant as it stood, or what those who brought the Ashes to the Frostbacks knew.

As an aside, I've actually seen the Dead Sea Scrolls when they came to the States several years back. They'd even brought some of the ones that were being restored... Coolest thing ever. Okay, I like comparative religions... I'm a geek.

[Sifr]

Since the scrolls have a tile in the Keep, we might see a little something. It'd be nice if that ended up being the Thedas version of the Dead Sea Scrolls. I have to wonder though about the riddle guardians in the Temple. Were they asking questions based on the Chant as it stood, or what those who brought the Ashes to the Frostbacks knew.

As an aside, I've actually seen the Dead Sea Scrolls when they came to the States several years back. They'd even brought some of the ones that were being restored... Coolest thing ever. Okay, I like comparative religions... I'm a geek.

 

That Shartan and Maferath are among the number asking the riddles suggests that when the Gauntlet was constructed, the verses or Canticles in the Chant that mentioned them or they'd written hadn't been removed yet, so it was probably a very early version.

 

Actually, makes me wonder how the Chantry reacted upon finding that part of the Temple and realising that the Gaunlet contained a "heretical" figure or two in the line-up, as well as the guardian (and questioners) most likely being bound spirits?

 

(And don't worry, I enjoy studying myths, legends and various religions as well, although I'm more of a history and archaeology nerd)

 

[Ariella]

That Shartan and Maferath are among the number asking the riddles suggests that when the Gauntlet was constructed, the verses or Canticles in the Chant that mentioned them or they'd written hadn't been removed yet, so it was probably a very early version.
 
Actually, makes me wonder how the Chantry reacted upon finding that part of the Temple and realising that the Gaunlet contained a "heretical" figure or two in the line-up, as well as the guardian (and questioners) most likely being bound spirits?

That is if they were still there, or were they removed when the ashes were? Still the idea of Leliana leading them over that bridge is amusing.
 

(And don't worry, I enjoy studying myths, legends and various religions as well, although I'm more of a history and archaeology nerd)
 

Capstone paper one using literary sources for historical research (focus on the Iliad) and World War 2 specialization . We should talk sometime, outside the threads

[Dai Grepher]

And that's probably a major reason why the Imperial Chantry is seen as heretical to the point that wearing their Chantry symbol can get you hung in the South... as by making Andraste just a powerful mage with absolutely no divine favour whatsoever, the Vints have taken away the one special quality that humans might claim to have that proves they are "better" than everyone else.

 

I don't think it's about superiority. I think it's about truth. The Chantry sees Tevinter as trying to lie about and slander Andraste. Like they didn't learn their lesson when they burned her and killed her. It's like they are trying to kill what she truly was because they don't want to admit her divine favor. They are still attacking the Maker's bride. I think that's what the Chantry has a problem with. And then that Tevinter claims to be anything like the Chantry is just more of an insult.
 

[Sifr]

That is if they were still there, or were they removed when the ashes were? Still the idea of Leliana leading them over that bridge is amusing.
 
Capstone paper one using literary sources for historical research (focus on the Iliad) and World War 2 specialization . We should talk sometime, outside the threads

 

It gets funnier when you remember the final part of the Gauntlet.

 

Can you imagine Leliana casually telling a bunch of stuffy Grand Clerics that they need to be completely nude in order to complete the final test and not get burned by the fire that is in their path. Maybe that was the real cause of the explosion at the Conclave, the Orb focused the power of them collectively blowing a gasket at the idea of being naked around the Most Holy and each other.

 

(Better do some crunches, Roderick) 

 

Take it you did a masters or some kind of graduate degree? I've been debating whether to pick it up again and get my Uni qualification (I never went due to the stress of the workload being too much), since I've always wanted to do it someday... and not because my lil sister is currently talking about going back to get her own masters in classics and history, honest!  

[Ariella]

It gets funnier when you remember the final part of the Gauntlet.
 
Can you imagine Leliana casually telling a bunch of stuffy Grand Clerics that they need to be completely nude in order to complete the final test and not get burned by the fire that is in their path. Maybe that was the real cause of the explosion at the Conclave, the Orb focused the power of them collectively blowing a gasket at the idea of being naked around the Most Holy and each other.
 
(Better do some crunches, Roderick) 
 
Take it you did a masters or some kind of graduate degree? I've been debating whether to pick it up again and get my Uni qualification (I never went due to the stress of the workload being too much), since I've always wanted to do it someday... and not because my lil sister is currently talking about going back to get her own masters in classics and history, honest!  

Capstone was required for bachelor's where I went to school. Unfortunately my specialization is unofficial study do to lack of funds and having family.

And yes, the Grand Clerics would probably have fits (which I would pay to see), and poor Rodrick, he gets no love. But honestly, I can see Justina being casual about it. But she didn't become Divine until a year or so after the Blight. Beatrix was still Divine though she was going senile iirc.

I'd also hate to see who they would have had to confront when they entered. The whole friend/relative purge regret thing. Can't seem most of the Clerics handling that well. It'd be like Marley confronting Scrooge for the first time.

[Sifr]

I've imagine that it's not just the Clerics who'd have a hard time in that situation, I always wondered whether it was just the Warden who saw someone or whether in the Origins party just everyone saw someone different, saying something only they could hear?

[Reznore57]

Yeah, you can definitely see the parallels with how the Church and the Chantry were formed and their early history, especially when it came to adopting a "canon" version of the doctrine and leaving everything that they didn't like in the bin, while persecuting those who held beliefs that contradicted them.

 

Perhaps Thedas has it's own equivalent to the Dead Sea Scrolls (the "Boeric Sea Scrolls" perhaps?), containing a bunch of these early alternate versions that were hidden away for being too controversial or contradicting other parts, that'd give a lot more insight into both the Chant that remains or those that have been rended as part of the Dissonant Verses, like Shartan or Maferath.

 

Actually, would be nice to see that early coded Chantry scroll we can find for Sister Justine in Origins ends up coming back into play at some point down the line, since it was both from the Temple of Sacred Ashes (and now is one of the few remaining relics) and seems to have been written by those whom might have actually known Andraste?

 

That's what , naive little me , thought we would get in Inquisition.

Some dissonant verse hidden by the Chantry for political reasons.Then you could make a choice about that , making them public knowledge or not.

 

I was disappointed because what we got is the whole "Herald of Andraste" , and it didn't meant anything.

It was just people jumping to conclusion in desperate time and the Chantry stance was always "You're an heretic" , so when you find out Andraste wasn't involved , it's just not a big deal at all.

In the end , whatever stance you take , saying the truth or keeping on with Andraste stuff , you've got the Chantry support anyway.

Now I wonder if whatever happened to the Inquisitor will be written in a new chapter of the Chant , but again it's something we will probably never have to deal with.

It's too bad , you don't even talk about it with a new Divine ...

In the end it's all about believing if the hand of the Maker is the hand of fate...which is not intersting imho.

[FrankWisdom]

This is my take on it. Feel free to check out any section in the thread. Let me know what you think. It's easy to navigate and find what you want to read about.

 

http://forum.bioware...es-discussions/