74 réponses à ce sujet

[stop_him]

Can't prove the Maker doesn't exist; can't prove the Maker does exist. It's a stalemate really.

 

Personally, I think all that Chantry talk about the Maker is rubbish.

[Andres Hendrix]

Can't prove the Maker doesn't exist; can't prove the Maker does exist. It's a stalemate really.

 

Personally, I think all that Chantry talk about the Maker is rubbish.

You don't 'prove' the non-existence of something. Simply put, until there is substantial evidence for 'thing X', there is no point in saying that 'thing X' exists. Therefore, there is no point in beliving in 'thing X'.

[Master Warder Z_]

You don't 'prove' the non-existence of something. Simply put, until there is substantial evidence for 'thing X', there is no point in saying that 'thing X' exists. Therefore, there is no point in beliving in 'thing X'.

Faith is the belief in something without evidence that said in this case it's a coin toss.

Maker could exist according to Bioware or he could not exist according to Bioware.

If he does he'd be the only God whose actually a God.

[Andres Hendrix]

Faith is the belief in something without evidence that said in this case it's a coin toss.

Maker could exist according to Bioware or he could not exist according to Bioware.

If he does he'd be the only God whose actually a God

I know what faith is you rube, that does not change the logic of burden of proof.

[X Equestris]

It's not the Christian church though, is it? It's a rough analogue in a series of games (and books and comics.) If anyone were truly offended by a fictional deity being proved "true" or "false" then I'd suggest that they may need to reconsider their priorities, but it would kind of deflate many of the conflicts and RP opportunities that BioWare have set up in the universe...

Sure, but people will see allegory whether it was intended or not. And having the Maker proven false when none of the other gods are actually gods could easily be seen as a general anti-religious message. In any case, I'm confident that we won't ever find anything definitive about the Maker's nature.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Sure, but people will see allegory whether it was intended or not. And having the Maker proven false when none of the other gods are actually gods could easily be seen as a general anti-religious message. In any case, I'm confident that we won't ever find anything definitive about the Maker's nature.

I'm sure that it was intentional allegory although I would say that it's more about organised religion, ideology and politics in general than Christianity specifically. I also agree that they won't reveal the Maker's veracity or otherwise. Still, getting offended by it either way would seem to me to be an overreaction.

[Master Warder Z_]

I know what faith is you rube, that does not change the logic of burden of proof.

Faith isn't something tied to burden of proof its the antithesis of it.

[Andres Hendrix]

Faith isn't something tied to burden of proof its the antithesis of it.

You are really somewhere off into space, I told him that you don't prove the non-existence of something. As for  faith, faith is like hysterically screaming at people that 2+2 = 5 instead of 4 because you lack the gumption to understand the math, mainly because 5 for one reason or another makes you 'feel better' about yourself.

[Elhanan]

The Maker = Sandal / thread....



Actually do hold out for this because of a similar thing was used in the Thor comics. In the film, Thor has amnesia, but in the storied events, it was Odin himself.

[Andres Hendrix]

 

I agree for the most part. Except Yeats is over my head at the moment. 

 

J/k   You're saying that level of conviction is bad? I agree. I feel it here though as much as I did with Anders..

 

 

 

 

Faith makes me feel horrible actually. Everything went to crap in my world the minute this happened. It used to be more fun.   

Then you are doing it wrong.

[SmilesJA]

Depends on what your definition of a God is. What's an Old God to you could be a supremely powerful being to others. It's like Sten said according to the Qunari Old Gods were to dragons as kings were to men.

[Ariella]

I agree for the most part. Except Yeats is over my head at the moment. 
 
J/k   You're saying that level of conviction is bad? I agree. I feel it here though as much as I did with Anders..

When I read those lines I tend think of the former is an apathy to hold to any conviction at all, while the latter's 'passionate intesity' takes the place of well thought action that may still be powered by conviction.

I'm generally in favor of change via baby steps. Destabilizing society too quicky (like Anders) leads to horror. I also believe non violent solutions to problems are better than killing left and right, because all that does is galvanize the threat.

Not sure if you're a Bablyon Five fan, but there's an episode in the second season about being 'chosen', about faith, and about the how one can truly tell. Some of the cgi is a bit dated, but Mira Furlan is amazing.

I'm a geek, what can I say.

[Illegitimus]

Faith is the belief in something without evidence that said in this case it's a coin toss.

Maker could exist according to Bioware or he could not exist according to Bioware.

If he does he'd be the only God whose actually a God.

 

Faith is trust or confidence in something.  It's not difficult to find hard evidence that the elven gods actually existed and at least some of them still do.  But that doesn't mean their followers don't need faith to follow them.  

[Andres Hendrix]

When I read those lines I tend think of the former is an apathy to hold to any conviction at all, while the latter's 'passionate intesity' takes the place of well thought action that may still be powered by conviction.

I'm generally in favor of change via baby steps. Destabilizing society too quicky (like Anders) leads to horror. I also believe non violent solutions to problems are better than killing left and right, because all that does is galvanize the threat.

Not sure if you're a Bablyon Five fan, but there's an episode in the second season about being 'chosen', about faith, and about the how one can truly tell. Some of the cgi is a bit dated, but Mira Furlan is amazing.

I'm a geek, what can I say.

Yeats' poem the "Second Coming" is like Eliot's Wasteland, it reflects the state of the world, the disenchantment (the fall of the romantic era, and the end of the old monarch powers) of the world after WW1. Its structure and symbolism has a lot to do with Yeats' belief in mysticism as well. Yeats wrote an essay under a pseudonym, where he explains what is meant by the 'widening gyre' and how historical change is perceived on said model. The lines that you bring up,

 

 

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."

 

 

is Yeats' interesting observation, that the best of his generation were all depressed with the state of the world to the point of being almost catatonic, and the worst of them the bigots, soon to be fascists e.g. Ezra Pound, those looking to cast the worst sort of blame were gaining a lot of momentum. He basically predicted WWII. Yeats began his career writing romantic poetry, one of my favorites is "The Song of Wandering Aengus" and when he got older and more curmudgeonly, he became more so a modernist and symbolist.

[ShadowLordXII]

Faith is the belief in something without evidence that said in this case it's a coin toss.

Maker could exist according to Bioware or he could not exist according to Bioware.

If he does he'd be the only God whose actually a God.

 

Considering what we know about the Tevinter and elven gods being powerful beings/spirits worshiped as gods, I have a feeling that the Maker is also just a powerful spirit/being that everyone thinks is a god.

 

In fact, there's even a possibility that Andraste was actually a mage possessed/empowered by a Spirit. (Look up the Tome "Search for the True Prophet) It would explain her trances and constantly being spoken to by someone called "The Maker". Or she could also just be crazy.

 

But since Andraste is long dead, we can't ask her herself.

[Master Warder Z_]

Considering what we know about the Tevinter and elven gods being powerful beings/spirits worshiped as gods, I have a feeling that the Maker is also just a powerful spirit/being that everyone thinks is a god.

In fact, there's even a possibility that Andraste was actually a mage possessed/empowered by a Spirit. (Look up the Tome "Search for the True Prophet) It would explain her trances and constantly being spoken to by someone called "The Maker". Or she could also just be crazy.

But since Andraste is long dead, we can't ask her herself.

Nah according to Bioware the Maker if he's real is the boonafide creator of all things, omnipresent, all knowing and beyond mortal comprehensive ability.

He'd be entire ballparks above any figure in the cosmos

It's all or nothing either he's a literal capital G-God or doesn't exist.

That's been their stance since the beginning.

[lordsaren101]

Dumat is the only god.

[ShadowLordXII]

Nah according to Bioware the Maker if he's real is the boonafide creator of all things, omnipresent, all knowing and beyond mortal comprehensive ability.

He'd be entire ballparks above any figure in the cosmos

It's all or nothing either he's a literal capital G-God or doesn't exist.

That's been their stance since the beginning.

 

Is that from an interview or inference from in-game lore?

 

The possibility of the Maker being what he's meant to be isn't non-existent. It's just that based on what we've seen from the other gods of Dragon Age, it appears as though the title of "god" is something bestowed upon beings/spirits beyond mortal reach and comprehension.

 

Let's see...

 

Tevinter old gods = Likely Alpha Great Dragons that may be indwelt by spirits (maybe the Forgotten ones or corrupted elven gods?)

 

Elven pantheon = Powerful spirits that could travel back and forth between the Fade and Mortal World

 

Hence why I'd say that if the Maker is real, then he's probably just a powerful spirit. Maybe he's one of the eldest of spirits.

 

Real or not, the Maker's still a bit of a jerk.

[Qun00]

Stay on topic, people.

No real life religion debates here.

Hence why I'd say that if the Maker is real, then he's probably just a powerful spirit. Maybe he's one of the eldest of spirits.

Most likely.

The Black City is located in the Fade, after all.

[Master Warder Z_]

Is that from an interview or inference from in-game lore?

It's from Gaider on the old forum.

It's like I said, its a coin toss either he's real and bam he's God or he isn't.

50/50

[ShadowLordXII]

It's from Gaider on the old forum.

It's like I said, its a coin toss either he's real and bam he's God or he isn't.

50/50

 

Link to Gaider's statement?

[Master Warder Z_]

Link to Gaider's statement?

Meh I'll dig through the refuse if I feel like it but its probably buried underneath all the garbage of the old forum.

It's from a thread back in like 2012

I'll post if I care enough to look

[Costin_Razvan]

An irrelevant discussion as Bioware has decided not to answer it and leave it ambiguous. The Maker could exist or not, but that's something that only Bioware knows the answer. 

[YourFunnyUncle]

When I read those lines I tend think of the former is an apathy to hold to any conviction at all, while the latter's 'passionate intesity' takes the place of well thought action that may still be powered by conviction.

I'm generally in favor of change via baby steps. Destabilizing society too quicky (like Anders) leads to horror. I also believe non violent solutions to problems are better than killing left and right, because all that does is galvanize the threat.

Not sure if you're a Bablyon Five fan, but there's an episode in the second season about being 'chosen', about faith, and about the how one can truly tell. Some of the cgi is a bit dated, but Mira Furlan is amazing.

I'm a geek, what can I say.

Anyone who is not a Babylon Five fan is wrong. In all seriousness I cannot imagine how one could enjoy BioWare games and not B5. They've so much in common.