194 réponses à ce sujet

[ParthianShotX]

I actually know people who have been banned for cheating that didn't involve mods.

[CremeDelight]

I actually know people who have been banned for cheating that didn't involve mods.

 

Fair enough, my mistake then.

[Felis Menari]

I actually know people who have been banned for cheating that didn't involve mods.

It depends on the infraction, to justify a ban. In a PvP setting, like in Modern Warfare 2 with the javelin glitch, that sort of thing absolutely ruins the enjoyment and ability to effectively play the game. That, I can see resulting in a ban, since that sort of behavior is absolutely malicious.

The XP exploit on the other hand, did not cause direct harm to one's gaming experience, lest you place too much importance on a co-op leaderboard. At best, you can reasonably call for a game specific ban, and even that I think is pushing it. A gamertag ban though? That's clearly taking it too far.

[ParthianShotX]

*snip*

 

I only chimed in to correct the assumption that a ban can only result from modded hardware.

[Proto]

At this point, I almost wish they had just issued a statement like this, "Use it if you please, nothing will come of it."

 

At least that way there wouldn't be a divide and pointing fingers. People could have chosen not to use it, or they could have also chosen to receive double XP and everyone would have been on the same playing field. No one would feel slighted or like there was an unfair advantage for anyone.

 

Unfortunately, Bioware came out warning everyone it was against ToS and could result in bans. Billy even changed his picture to a "watching you" image. They then followed this statement up by fixing the issue without a patch less than a week before the patch. That truly puzzled me. Why tell everyone it's not fixable without a patch then hotfix it right before the patch goes live?

 

All around dropped the ball. But, grand scheme of things small issue. Something to consider for future instances, though.

[ParthianShotX]

At this point, I almost wish they had just issued a statement like this, "Use it if you please, nothing will come of it."

 

At least that way there wouldn't be a divide and pointing fingers. People could have chosen not to use it, or they could have also chosen to receive double XP and everyone would have been on the same playing field. No one would feel slighted or like there was an unfair advantage for anyone. 

 

Agree with this completely.  Really think they took the worse course of action by calling it cheating, saying there'd be bans, changing their TOS in such a way to suggest that a heavy hammer would fall and then doing nothing.  Should have just said -- we're aware of the bug that allows the exploit and are trying to fix it.

[Proto]

Agree with this completely.  Really think they took the worse course of action by calling it cheating, saying there'd be bans, changing their TOS in such a way to suggest that a heavy hammer would fall and then doing nothing.  Should have just said -- we're aware of the bug that allows the exploit and are trying to fix it.

 

Pretty much. Just makes those who respected Bioware's voice feel like fools and allows those that chose to ignore warnings to act smug.

[Wavebend]

At this point, I almost wish they had just issued a statement like this, "Use it if you please, nothing will come of it."

 

They can't encourage cheating. It was very obvious from the beginning that they'd do absolutely nothing. As I said, they don't have the resources for it.

[Proto]

They can't encourage cheating. It was very obvious from the beginning that they'd do absolutely nothing. As I said, they don't have the resources for it.

 

That's the thing, it wasn't really "cheating" until they said it was.

[Beerfish]

I am not a fan of cheating, especially in a game with people that do value scoreboards and such and put time and effort into it.  My biggest beef however is the same in this game as it was in ME3MP.

 

Set the damn game to private!

[dryz]

@Denrok1: Going to Microsoft would result in a gamertag ban though, rather than a game specific ban, right? If so, then doing so is malicious and cruel. At the absolute most a player should be banned from the game they cheated on.

I was a mod over on the 360 forums and pretty much everyday a hand full of people would write the exact same post, "my gammertag was banned, I don't know why, I don't even know how to hack" or "my son's gammertag was banned, I know he doesn't hack, I pay for Xbox live so fix this or I will never spend another cent!!!". The thing is if it's gotten to the point of Xbox banning your tag completely they have actual proof that you have modded your console. You can get banned for being offensive, or unsportsmenlike, or even glitching but those are soft bans and they will be for a period of time, not forever. Plenty of modders and hackers get away with it because Xbox doesn't have affirmation or proof that it was being done, once it's at the GT ban stage they have proof.

Also iirc the consoles do not ban for game infractions. Glitching a game lobby or doing something forbidden through game mechanics which are done without chipping or moddifying hardware has nothing to do with Microsoft or Sony, they will not ban people unless that person is bad for Microsoft or Sony, which cheaters in DAMP aren't. Some game developers are fine with glitches and "cheating" so it's not the console manufacturers business to get involved. Like with Destiny when people could get infinite ammo through a clock rollback, that has no effect on Sony or Microsoft so they will not ban the person, it's up to the developer.

Flooding the console manufacturer with complaints isn't the way to go, BioWare will have final say no matter what (unless the person is using a modified device) anyways and by flooding the complaint system you will most likely put yourself in the consoles radar more than the person you're reporting. People who report through the dashboard often have their complaints lose weight within the internal algorithms anyways so honestly don't bother if you're finding yourself reporting often.

What BioWare needs imo is a way to capture gameplay clips and report directly to the developer with evidence of the person in question. The new console manufacturers built capturing right into the system, and it's used for error reports, so why not for an anti-cheating mechanic?

[Denrok1]

I was a mod over on the 360 forums and pretty much everyday a hand full of people would write the exact same post, "my gammertag was banned, I don't know why, I don't even know how to hack" or "my son's gammertag was banned, I know he doesn't hack, I pay for Xbox live so fix this or I will never spend another cent!!!". The thing is if it's gotten to the point of Xbox banning your tag completely they have actual proof that you have modded your console. You can get banned for being offensive, or unsportsmenlike, or even glitching but those are soft bans and they will be for a period of time, not forever. Plenty of modders and hackers get away with it because Xbox doesn't have affirmation or proof that it was being done, once it's at the GT ban stage they have proof.

Also iirc the consoles do not ban for game infractions. Glitching a game lobby or doing something forbidden through game mechanics which are done without chipping or moddifying hardware has nothing to do with Microsoft or Sony, they will not ban people unless that person is bad for Microsoft or Sony, which cheaters in DAMP aren't. Some game developers are fine with glitches and "cheating" so it's not the console manufacturers business to get involved. Like with Destiny when people could get infinite ammo through a clock rollback, that has no effect on Sony or Microsoft so they will not ban the person, it's up to the developer.

Flooding the console manufacturer with complaints isn't the way to go, BioWare will have final say no matter what (unless the person is using a modified device) anyways and by flooding the complaint system you will most likely put yourself in the consoles radar more than the person you're reporting. People who report through the dashboard often have their complaints lose weight within the internal algorithms anyways so honestly don't bother if you're finding yourself reporting often.

What BioWare needs imo is a way to capture gameplay clips and report directly to the developer with evidence of the person in question. The new console manufacturers built capturing right into the system, and it's used for error reports, so why not for an anti-cheating mechanic?

Very informative. Thank you for the information. Perhaps writing opinion articles to gaming review sites is the way to go next.

[Headbasher]

Very informative. Thank you for the information. Perhaps writing opinion articles to gaming review sites is the way to go next.

 

I think you need to let it go man and move on man , didn't you quit anyway? Talking about putting in mass tickets to Microsoft and writing gaming sites over something like this ? What are you going to do when they do nothing? call the police ? Hunt them down and make them pay? Sue them?

 

The war is over. It's time go home.

[Denrok1]

I think you need to let it go man and move on man , didn't you quit anyway? Talking about putting in mass tickets to Microsoft and writing gaming sites over something like this ? What are you going to do when they do nothing? call the police ? Hunt them down and make them pay? Sue them?

 

The war is over. It's time go home.

 

It is looking that way, but before I do, I am going to ask around my law firm I work for to collaborate on some ideas of what I should do next before I decide to put the case down. 

[Sulaco_7]

It is looking that way, but before I do, I am going to ask around my law firm I work for to collaborate on some ideas of what I should do next before I decide to put the case down. 

 

You mean you would actually consider filing suit against EA/Bioware?

 

I bet even the threat of such a thing would get them to act.

[dryz]

It is looking that way, but before I do, I am going to ask around my law firm I work for to collaborate on some ideas of what I should do next before I decide to put the case down.

Class action suit man, didn't you know. Every game that comes out has a minimum of 5 tort litigation processes at any given time. The second most common post, after the "i don't even know what a hack is", was always the "xxxxx happened, and if Microsoft doesn't stop what theyre doing right now and fix my issue they will be hearing from my attorney!". Don't rightly know what happened afterwards, but I always wondered why no one ever heard of all the lawsuits and settlements Microsoft and Sony must be paying out.

[dryz]

You mean you would actually consider filing suit against EA/Bioware?

I bet even the threat of such a thing would get them to act.

The problem is that even though people may have a valid claim against developers and publishers for things like missrepresentation or unjust removal from the ability to play the game, you'd never be able to collect damages beyond the cost of the game. Class action suits have huge settlements, but those are to cover all parties with claim to the payout, actual payouts are usually a few bucks per claimant. So unless you are a lawyer with nothing better to do or can find a firm to take on the case pro-bono or have such a slam dunk case that the lawyer will take their far off of any awards, you'll spend far more having a lawyer even write up a letter to the company than you would ever win back in a judgement against.

It's why so many companies use such shady practices, it's a gamble that consistently pays off in favor of the one making the money.

[ParthianShotX]

Also iirc the consoles do not ban for game infractions. Glitching a game lobby or doing something forbidden through game mechanics which are done without chipping or moddifying hardware has nothing to do with Microsoft or Sony, they will not ban people unless that person is bad for Microsoft or Sony, which cheaters in DAMP aren't. 

 

Not sure when you were last a mod (is that a volunteer spot?) but I know people who were recently banned for setting up an exploit for a glitch -- like in the last two months (not Dragon Age).  It may be that an action like that required cooperation from the developer (or not); I don't really know.  I suspect that unless I was actually a paid employee of MS in the appropriate division I'd be unlikely to know with any kind of certainty what rationale they use.

[Ghost Of N7_SP3CTR3]

A lawsuit over a video game?Holy ****,that's just nuts.

[Denrok1]

Class action suit man, didn't you know. Every game that comes out has a minimum of 5 tort litigation processes at any given time. The second most common post, after the "i don't even know what a hack is", was always the "xxxxx happened, and if Microsoft doesn't stop what theyre doing right now and fix my issue they will be hearing from my attorney!". Don't rightly know what happened afterwards, but I always wondered why no one ever heard of all the lawsuits and settlements Microsoft and Sony must be paying out.

 

 

The problem is that even though people may have a valid claim against developers and publishers for things like missrepresentation or unjust removal from the ability to play the game, you'd never be able to collect damages beyond the cost of the game. Class action suits have huge settlements, but those are to cover all parties with claim to the payout, actual payouts are usually a few bucks per claimant. So unless you are a lawyer with nothing better to do or can find a firm to take on the case pro-bono or have such a slam dunk case that the lawyer will take their far off of any awards, you'll spend far more having a lawyer even write up a letter to the company than you would ever win back in a judgement against.

It's why so many companies use such shady practices, it's a gamble that consistently pays off in favor of the one making the money.

 

Dryz is absolutely correct. I just finished talking to my team. There are no damages from the cheat / hack so there is nothing to sue over, and I was not thinking of a lawsuit I was thinking what other avenues I could take to get the people banned. Lawyers have very creative minds; that is why I wanted to collaborate. The attroney's recommendation was to not purchase anymore games from EA. I am just one small fish in the sea but I am satisfied with that result; case closed.

 

P.S.

 

Dryz,

 

I really like your input. Very articulate and well thought out.

[ParthianShotX]

The problem is that even though people may have a valid claim against developers and publishers for things like missrepresentation or unjust removal from the ability to play the game, you'd never be able to collect damages beyond the cost of the game. Class action suits have huge settlements, but those are to cover all parties with claim to the payout, actual payouts are usually a few bucks per claimant. So unless you are a lawyer with nothing better to do or can find a firm to take on the case pro-bono or have such a slam dunk case that the lawyer will take their far off of any awards, you'll spend far more having a lawyer even write up a letter to the company than you would ever win back in a judgement against.

It's why so many companies use such shady practices, it's a gamble that consistently pays off in favor of the one making the money.

 

Most plaintiffs' lawyers do, in fact, take their legal fees out of settlement.  And most class actions are not really about the pay-offs to the injured -- the lawyers are really the only ones to ever get paid in any meaningful way -- they're usually about message.  More often than not larger corporations quietly settle if it's something they can't defend as it's more costly to move forward in the litigation than to settle -- this is even if they have truly done nothing wrong.  They do often amend their practices, though, so as not to be subject to such suit again.  The one exception to this is if the company wants to make an example or a point of something -- then the legal dollars do flow.   You see this most often in employment related class actions, however.   You are right, though, in supposing that the amount of damages would be only equal to the harm (cost of the game).  An exception to this might be if a plaintiff could lay claim to a broader harm -- then there might be punitive damages which would exceed the value of the immediate "harm."

 

Sorry for the geek out -- more about the intellectual exercise, truly, than any endorsement of an actual suit against BW.

[Bearform]

Dryz is absolutely correct. I just finished talking to my team. There are no damages from the cheat / hack so there is nothing to sue over, and I was not thinking of a lawsuit I was thinking what other avenues I could take to get the people banned. Lawyers have very creative minds; that is why I wanted to collaborate. The attroney's recommendation was to not purchase anymore games from EA. I am just one small fish in the sea but I am satisfied with that result; case closed.

 

P.S.

 

Dryz,

 

I really like your input. Very articulate and well thought out.

 

I just want to applaud Denrok1 dedication to this cause. Want him to know that he is not the only one who feels strongly about this. 

I do not have a law background so can not contribute to the ongoing convo, but can offer support and encouragement to the ongoing fight against BW's 

lack of action. 

[Denrok1]

I just want to applaud Denrok1 dedication to this cause. Want him to know that he is not the only one who feels strongly about this. 

I do not have a law background so can not contribute to the ongoing convo, but can offer support and encouragement to the ongoing fight against BW's 

lack of action. 

 

Thank you Bear! Hollar if you need anything from me. I am around.

[dryz]

Not sure when you were last a mod (is that a volunteer spot?) but I know people who were recently banned for setting up an exploit for a glitch -- like in the last two months (not Dragon Age). It may be that an action like that required cooperation from the developer (or not); I don't really know. I suspect that unless I was actually a paid employee of MS in the appropriate division I'd be unlikely to know with any kind of certainty what rationale they use.

It's it's kinda a volunteer thing, not sure how it works now but this was during 360 life cycle. You just kinda get invited to be a mod depending on how often you posted and how often you help people with issues on the forums. Than you get kind of a checklist of things to go over so you can help people over live chat or on the forums. One of the top things that pushed was that there's no appeal process for gamertag bans or console bans, if this has happened it won't be reversed and if it's gotten to that point they have proof of their claims.

Many of the smaller developers depended on the Xbox cheating prevention to moderate their games, low budget and Xbox arcade in particular. Even though you can get a ban from Xbox for individual game activity that leave the terms and reasons up to the developer, it's just that small game developers usually don't have the infastructure in place to deal with maintaining the game environment, but if Xbox is stepping in it's because the developer has "allowed" them to, or specifically asked for it. For example if BioWare told Sony or Microsoft that have no intention of making glitching a punishable action, the console manufacturer will not step in even when they have proof of it occuring unless that person also is being detrimental to their intrests ( like modding for unlimited platinum, or gold to purchase items from marketplace)

Most of my time as a mod was spent either going through gamertags which were given to me to check for obscenities, or looking at profile or descriptions for obscenities. You can also get more involved by entering live chat or answering questions on the help forum hoping for a good rating and earning points you can turn into items or rewards. Besides the company line, faqs, and that little guidelines email mods (at least at my level) had no contact with anyone at Microsoft. We are just gamers who like to help and are congenial to others enough to get an invite.

[dryz]

Dryz is absolutely correct. I just finished talking to my team. There are no damages from the cheat / hack so there is nothing to sue over, and I was not thinking of a lawsuit I was thinking what other avenues I could take to get the people banned. Lawyers have very creative minds; that is why I wanted to collaborate. The attroney's recommendation was to not purchase anymore games from EA. I am just one small fish in the sea but I am satisfied with that result; case closed.

P.S.

Dryz,

I really like your input. Very articulate and well thought out.

Thanks, I'm trying to get into law school (LSATs this semester) so I love these excercises. L
The more prelaw, criminal justice, and paralegal classes I take all reinforce one thing, nothing in law is black and white as much as people want to believe it is. There are arguments for and against anything, it's just a matter of how convincing you can make an argument. Even laws which are set up with very strict guidelines have differences in how to defend against them, it's fascinating imo. For every argument someone makes which makes complete legal sense, someone else will make an argument against it which will again make complete legal sense, it's all for a judge or jury to decide who they "like" more.