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Why all the Hate with the Combat System of DAI?


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#76
Wolven_Soul

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Not just the whole party could be two or three at a time if you wanted. But yes it's a very missed feature that I feel is integral to RtwP gameplay.

 

Yeah I never take game of the year awards into account anymore.  I mean, one year Bioshock: Infinite was best shooter of the year because of it's fantastic story, despite that the actual shooting mechanics were not very good.  Next year, Destiny, with practically no story but with very solid shooting mechanics was shooter of the year.  So people who decide these things can't even agree on what makes for great games.  That's why I don't give a crap how many awards traditional games media gives a game.  I care more about what actual gamers are saying, which is why I go to Youtube videos when I do research for a game.


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#77
Giantdeathrobot

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Personally, while I don't think it is a disaster by any means, it is definitely flawed. I'd improve it by;

 

-Slowing everything down. The animations and movement speed are too fast. In particular it always felt to me that player characters are automatically twice as fast as NPCs which looks jarring.

 

-Take away bullet spongy enemies (save for those for whom it makes sense such as High Dragons and Ogres), give them more resistances and various abilities allowing them to avoid damage (dodges, invisibility, temporary shields, etc.) instead. 

 

-Implement a non-shitty tactical camera. Higher zoom, more responsive, and please make the cursor able to traverse terrain.

 

-Give enemies more abilities in general. The vast majority will just blindly attack whatever is closest. Give them movement abilities, CC spells, healing spells, buffs, all that jazz. Variety is the spice of life.

 

-Ditch the 8 abilities limit. It makes no sense and hamstrings high level combat; beyond levels 16-17, you might as well only put points in passive skills.

 

-Tactics screen I didn't use too much, but more detailed behavior for party members would nice. Full automation is IMO not required. I also find it funny when people say taking away the screen that plays the combat for you is dumbing down. Play some ye olde schoole RPGs and see how much more you have to micromanage.

 

What I hope Bioware keeps;

 

-No easily accessible healing magic. Which means that the cheesy enemy abilities that deal absurd amounts of damage or stun the entire party were absent, since those were the only ways to make combat in the previous games challenging. Ressource conservation gameplay is fun. 

 

-Focus abilities. I like the idea of a panic button, a super-spell you use in dire circumstances. 

 

-1 specialization. Made them meaningful, diverse and fun. Keep that.

 

-Smaller enemy forces. You rarely fight more than 5-6 foes, and aside from Descent there is little wave combat. 

 

-Guard and Barrier. I like temporary ways to mitigate damage. As I said, enemies should use that more. 

 

-On a more general note, the crafting system.


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#78
Paul E Dangerously

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DAI is, quite honestly, a Frankenstein. And I say that with no offense to any reanimated monsters that may be lurking among us.

 

Bioware's philosophy is at the same time admirable and kind of backhanded. They want everyone. This is theoretically a good thing. The problem is, they want everyone, and they do it with the grace of a sledgehammer to the skull. Just sit there for a moment and tell me who DAI's trying to appeal to. The marketing and design on this thing is so convoluted that if you embodied it in one person, they'd have more heads than the friggin' Hydra and all be talking at once. It's an RPG! It's an action game! It's tactical! It's open-world! It's story-driven! It's exploration-driven! It's multiplayer! It's single-player!

 

Origins wasn't perfect, and I'll be the first to admit that. The combat was janky and awkward, but Bioware's 3D has never really been good, and their animation is just a hair above Bethesda in terms of "please, get help". It was a little too MMO-inspired, holding back possible character builds by tying weapons to trees so they wouldn't have to think up new things to fill the warrior class with. Hotkey combat has never been exciting in anything, unless you're the type who really gets off on playing your keyboard like a piano, and if that's your thing my hat's off to you.

 

Yet, it worked. Despite the shortcomings in the character build system and the combat, you could do a shocking variety of things. A mage kitted out for buffing and debuffing enemies, or kitted out for melee combat. Dedicated players even wrote and tested an entire list of spells you could use without having to sheath your weapon just for that purpose. As long as you met the requirements, you could use damn near anything. Don't like robes? Wear armor. Want a rogue that fights on the front lines or a warrior archer? Go for it. Origins found an odd sort of quirky charm that the DA games have kind of lacked since.

 

I liked DA2 for what it was. It was simplified by a lot, but I was (grudgingly) willing to sacrifice variety for better skill trees and more responsive combat. DA2 left a lot of Origins on the cutting floor, though, enough that a lot of players just stared and went "this isn't the same game any more". Then DAI rolls around, and I'd be hard pressed to tell they were in the same series if it wasn't for the words coming out of the characters' mouths occasionally.

 

Yes, Inquisition has some good points. They continued with DA2's better skill trees, but it dumbed the game down even harder than DA2 ever could. In a word, if I had to describe it, DAI is just "less". My character is, more often than not, a one-skill monkey. Warrior Smash. Rogue Sneak. Mage Shoot. Fighting mage? Arguably still exists in the form of the Knight-Enchanter, but you can't wear honest-to-God armor unless it's Silverite. Enjoy grinding that at one chunk per node until you hit an arbitrary level point that Bioware decides you should "have" it. Warrior Archers and Brawler Rogues were taken out back and given the ol' Yeller along with Healers and Maker knows what else.

 

Characters can't use multiple weapon sets. Characters can't use more than eight skills. One of which is a focus skill that takes up a slot and can only be used every once in a blue moon. Healing is gone, replaced by an even more brainless system where the mage just zaps you with Barrier and the warrior uses Guard, if you can ever get the blasted AI to actually do what it's supposed to. Which honestly, good luck with that "tactics" system. They just replaced post-damage healing with Temporary HP and called it a fix. You're still relying on either the AI to do it, or you to do it once it runs out. It's not tactical in any way, just more of the same micromanagement people complained about with healers.

 

The HP sink nature of enemies is even worse than it was with DA2, which I could almost forgive there because it was rushed to hell. In DAI, not so much. Fighting a dragon isn't difficult, it just becomes this long slog in which you chase it around, keep popping Barrier and Guard every time they run out, and watch the mile-long HP bar slowly creep down.

 

Not to say that the rest of the game is an improvement. I thought DA2 made loot worse by scattering it all over the blasted map. DAI goes one step farther and it makes it random. Then it adds crafting, which totally didn't take exploration in Skyrim out behind the woodshed and started beating it with a broom, and somehow makes it worse. Nobody has their own recipes except for the Orlesians, and to make it worse, a significant chunk of the bastards are completely random. Meaning that one piece that you probably really need you may never get. God forbid I get into the quest "rewards" or the economy.

 

And yet, it's not a bad game. I can almost forgive a bad game, if they have some sort of charm. DA2's a wreck, but it's fun in a lot of respects. Hawke and Varric carry it a long way, the character interaction is (generally) good, and even the combat has it's moments. DAI, however, is worse than that in the aspect it's just boring. It's been stripped down and hacked apart so much that it isn't even recognizable as Dragon Age, and even DA2 was sort of iffy with that. It's bland. Where it tries to improve, it takes a few steps backward and falls flat onto it's own back. It's dull. It's bland. It doesn't want to be red, or blue, or yellow. It wants to be beige. And it is.

 

How appropriate.

 

I almost think Bioware's DA team only really hears one criticism of a game and focuses entirely on that. DA2 didn't really carry on from DAO's strengths, and DAI doesn't carry any of DA2's - with the exception of the skill trees, which I do admit have potential. As samey of a replacement for healing as Guard/Barrier are, they're not awful. What I think could help is giving both players and enemies a wide variety of options back. It's not a solution, but it's a start.


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#79
Heimdall

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I actually prefer the Guard/Barrier system to the endless spamming of healing spells.
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#80
Wulfram

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Healing spam was a DA:O thing that had been pretty much cured by DA2, anyway.  Unless you really invested quite heavily in spirit healer and ran with Anders, but if the player wants to have a lot of healing I don't think that was a bad thing.

 

Guard is OK, but I could do without barriers really.  Or at least I could do with them feeling less obligatory, rather than automatically claiming two talents and a quick bar slot on any mage I play.  And the AI being totally idiotic with them and forcing you to manage them by hand is a pain too


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#81
correctamundo

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I actually prefer the Guard/Barrier system to the endless spamming of healing spells.

 

Yes, I don't understand this absolute need for healing spells. Even so there is resurgence.



#82
Enigmatick

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I agree that healing was already kind of fixed in DA2, actually. DAI's solution just turns DAO healing spell frequency into barriers and kills the archetype of a support mage.


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#83
TeffexPope

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DAI is, quite honestly, a Frankenstein. And I say that with no offense to any reanimated monsters that may be lurking among us.

 

Bioware's philosophy is at the same time admirable and kind of backhanded. They want everyone. This is theoretically a good thing. The problem is, they want everyone, and they do it with the grace of a sledgehammer to the skull. Just sit there for a moment and tell me who DAI's trying to appeal to. The marketing and design on this thing is so convoluted that if you embodied it in one person, they'd have more heads than the friggin' Hydra and all be talking at once. It's an RPG! It's an action game! It's tactical! It's open-world! It's story-driven! It's exploration-driven! It's multiplayer! It's single-player!

 

Origins wasn't perfect, and I'll be the first to admit that. The combat was janky and awkward, but Bioware's 3D has never really been good, and their animation is just a hair above Bethesda in terms of "please, get help". It was a little too MMO-inspired, holding back possible character builds by tying weapons to trees so they wouldn't have to think up new things to fill the warrior class with. Hotkey combat has never been exciting in anything, unless you're the type who really gets off on playing your keyboard like a piano, and if that's your thing my hat's off to you.

 

Yet, it worked. Despite the shortcomings in the character build system and the combat, you could do a shocking variety of things. A mage kitted out for buffing and debuffing enemies, or kitted out for melee combat. Dedicated players even wrote and tested an entire list of spells you could use without having to sheath your weapon just for that purpose. As long as you met the requirements, you could use damn near anything. Don't like robes? Wear armor. Want a rogue that fights on the front lines or a warrior archer? Go for it. Origins found an odd sort of quirky charm that the DA games have kind of lacked since.

 

I liked DA2 for what it was. It was simplified by a lot, but I was (grudgingly) willing to sacrifice variety for better skill trees and more responsive combat. DA2 left a lot of Origins on the cutting floor, though, enough that a lot of players just stared and went "this isn't the same game any more". Then DAI rolls around, and I'd be hard pressed to tell they were in the same series if it wasn't for the words coming out of the characters' mouths occasionally.

 

Yes, Inquisition has some good points. They continued with DA2's better skill trees, but it dumbed the game down even harder than DA2 ever could. In a word, if I had to describe it, DAI is just "less". My character is, more often than not, a one-skill monkey. Warrior Smash. Rogue Sneak. Mage Shoot. Fighting mage? Arguably still exists in the form of the Knight-Enchanter, but you can't wear honest-to-God armor unless it's Silverite. Enjoy grinding that at one chunk per node until you hit an arbitrary level point that Bioware decides you should "have" it. Warrior Archers and Brawler Rogues were taken out back and given the ol' Yeller along with Healers and Maker knows what else.

 

Characters can't use multiple weapon sets. Characters can't use more than eight skills. One of which is a focus skill that takes up a slot and can only be used every once in a blue moon. Healing is gone, replaced by an even more brainless system where the mage just zaps you with Barrier and the warrior uses Guard, if you can ever get the blasted AI to actually do what it's supposed to. Which honestly, good luck with that "tactics" system. They just replaced post-damage healing with Temporary HP and called it a fix. You're still relying on either the AI to do it, or you to do it once it runs out. It's not tactical in any way, just more of the same micromanagement people complained about with healers.

 

The HP sink nature of enemies is even worse than it was with DA2, which I could almost forgive there because it was rushed to hell. In DAI, not so much. Fighting a dragon isn't difficult, it just becomes this long slog in which you chase it around, keep popping Barrier and Guard every time they run out, and watch the mile-long HP bar slowly creep down.

 

Not to say that the rest of the game is an improvement. I thought DA2 made loot worse by scattering it all over the blasted map. DAI goes one step farther and it makes it random. Then it adds crafting, which totally didn't take exploration in Skyrim out behind the woodshed and started beating it with a broom, and somehow makes it worse. Nobody has their own recipes except for the Orlesians, and to make it worse, a significant chunk of the bastards are completely random. Meaning that one piece that you probably really need you may never get. God forbid I get into the quest "rewards" or the economy.

 

And yet, it's not a bad game. I can almost forgive a bad game, if they have some sort of charm. DA2's a wreck, but it's fun in a lot of respects. Hawke and Varric carry it a long way, the character interaction is (generally) good, and even the combat has it's moments. DAI, however, is worse than that in the aspect it's just boring. It's been stripped down and hacked apart so much that it isn't even recognizable as Dragon Age, and even DA2 was sort of iffy with that. It's bland. Where it tries to improve, it takes a few steps backward and falls flat onto it's own back. It's dull. It's bland. It doesn't want to be red, or blue, or yellow. It wants to be beige. And it is.

 

How appropriate.

 

I almost think Bioware's DA team only really hears one criticism of a game and focuses entirely on that. DA2 didn't really carry on from DAO's strengths, and DAI doesn't carry any of DA2's - with the exception of the skill trees, which I do admit have potential. As samey of a replacement for healing as Guard/Barrier are, they're not awful. What I think could help is giving both players and enemies a wide variety of options back. It's not a solution, but it's a start.

Yeah, I always liked being able to be so flexible in character builds in Origin. I only did one rogue in that one, and I used a longsword + dagger combo, with heavy armor. Can't do that anymore. Instead, they give the daggers the highest DPS, which I guess makes sense in some ways. And they merged certain abilities and trees together for simplification - it was a bit silly to have both walking bomb and virulent walking bomb and have two separate spells. The Knight-Enchanter is kind of like the spirit warrior from DAO, mixed with force mage. 



#84
Iakus

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I actually prefer the Guard/Barrier system to the endless spamming of healing spells.

If I was ever reduced to "spamming" healing spells, I had done something very wrong and was simply prolonging the inevitable.


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#85
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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For the all action heavy leanings of DAI, I still can't play a fluid rogue with a bow and daggers. At least DAO let me simulate the weapon switching more, and DA2 had the murder knife.. lol.

 

But that's my imagery of an elf archer especially. Shortbow and daggers, shooting a lot in movement. A Shadow spec would work well like this too. Lots of decoys and distractions and hitting from multiple directions. Look at Leliana in the Sacred Ashes trailer, for example. Or Tauriel/Legolas in the Lotr/Hobbit flicks. Pretty much the same thing. To me, that's "action".

 

So yeah.. even though it's called Action combat, I still haven't gotten my Devil May Cry sword/gun combo. This kind of dual attack can be done better in action games. They're still thinking like old school RPG and mmo designers. And yet more stripped down from even DAO in this respect...despite the flashy animations.

 

That all said, I think warriors are probably the best implemented.



#86
Monica83

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That is what i dislike:

 

8 slot restriction: like if this game was not a singleplayer roleplay game but a moorpg/moba

Questionable animations: Why have the characters walking and running nice... Behave realistically in cutscene then when they enter in combat they do anime like moves flashy things and out of context things?

 

I mean a warrior that hits the ground with a two handed weapon and makes the terrain cripple and erupt.... That's just over the top not necessary and even silly to see since warrior are not used to know magic....

Silly weapon restriction: Each class is restricted to use only a kind of weapon... 

 

Mage: Staff..

Rogue: Daggers(dual) and Bow..

Warrior:Two handed weapon- Sword and shield..

 

Tactical camera: Not usefull at all.. is clunky and still bugged... The camera don't react well with the surround and you can't zoom out much.. Hell... You can zoom out more in skyrim..

 

In the end:

The combat system is flawed and have still too much Dragon age2 visuals and animation influence... While they added restriction too.



#87
AlleluiaElizabeth

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You actually CAN zoom out a lot more in tactical camera now. Its a setting towards the bottom of "Controls" in the Options menu.


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#88
robotnist

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i LOVE the combat in DAI!!! i think that many people are missing the important aspects and the smaller details of certain skills which REALLY make up a lot of the combat strategy and fun.

 

i love that each class has their own play style, and thats 5 classes IMO.

 

the 1h weapon//shield warrior plays very different and has different combat strategy than the 2h weapon warrior.

same with the rogues, the archer vs the dual wielder are very different and then of course you have your mages.

 

and i love them all!!! they're all so much fun for me.

 

building guard up with your shield as a 1Hwep/shield war. barbarizing the field of war as the 2H warrior conan style is badass!!!

and it's the little things, like the 2H war's "helicopter skill" (forgot skill name, lol), if used in sync with a certain buff and if you are attacking a few enemies at a time you gain some stamina back to keep the swinging going!!! there's so many skills like that!!!

 

i'm not a huge mage fan in most games but i'll tell you i love playing mages in DAI!!! their spells look so cool, they're so fun to play...

 

anyways, i'm biased because i love the game, but i feel many people could get MORE out of the combat if they spent some time reading how skills worked and approached combat with a little more ingenuity!!! 

 

cheers.



#89
Sylvius the Mad

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Instead, they give the daggers the highest DPS, which I guess makes sense in some ways.

Daggers had the highest DPS in DAO, as well.  I think a Dagger & Shield Warrior was the best tank available.



#90
Wolven_Soul

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I actually prefer the Guard/Barrier system to the endless spamming of healing spells.

 

Ahh so you prefer endless spamming of barrier to endless spamming of healing spells.  Not an improvement.  I got really tired of casting that danged spell on my mage.  


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#91
Heimdall

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Ahh so you prefer endless spamming of barrier to endless spamming of healing spells.  Not an improvement.  I got really tired of casting that danged spell on my mage.

I prefer being able to build guard on my warrior and no longer requiring a Mage to babysit them.
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#92
Gaesesagai

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Personally I don't hate the combat in DAI. It's more like a "meh" type of feeling.

It's sluggish to say the least, AI ignores or loses most commands (which makes usage of tactics a pain) and what AI does usually doesn't make sense at all (meaning positioning in particular is all over the place, making it even more difficult to use tactics).

Given all that, I ended up using a KE, and basically ignoring my party. In most dragon fights for example, the party is usually dead within seconds and I just solo it.

Another thing, are the bugs. Programming was never Bioware's best feature, and by that I mean it's somewhere between horrible and abysmal in terms of quality, but DAO seemed a lot smoother then both DA2 and DAI. Well... as long as you didn't play dual rogue, or two handed warrior, where most skills where 100% bugged lol.

In DAI, for example, I would like to start a new pt with dual rogue... or archer... or any other. But the bugs, the aop silliness, and etc, takes the fun out of it. So instead I have my main (which is my 3rd full pt as a mage lol) and that will be it probably for good, since Bioware is also very bad at polishing their games ("if you don't want to deal with the game breaking bug, don't open the door" anyone? lol).

So yeah, a lot of meh feelings regarding the tech part of this game.



#93
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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Daggers had the highest DPS in DAO, as well.  I think a Dagger & Shield Warrior was the best tank available.

 

They were, but it wasn't really about dps there exactly. Just that it corresponded well with high dex tank.



#94
Wolven_Soul

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I prefer being able to build guard on my warrior and no longer requiring a Mage to babysit them.

 

Umm, pretty sure the mage still has to babysit the warrior.  I know I had to babysit Cassandra, constantly dropping barrier on her all the time.  Guard builds up quick, but it gets eaten through quick to.  

 

And Bull?  Holy crap but he dropped like a stone if I didn't constantly feed him a barrier.  

 

So yeah, there really isn't much of a difference. 



#95
Sylvius the Mad

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Umm, pretty sure the mage still has to babysit the warrior. I know I had to babysit Cassandra, constantly dropping barrier on her all the time.

Cassandra soloed the Crestwood dragon for me. I'd engaged the dragon by accident, and it killed everyone else pretty quickly, but then Cassandra stood there with her Guard and hacked away at it for 20 minutes, just auto-attacking with the occasional Shield Wall to build Guard.

Well-managed, Guard builds itself. They don't need Barrier unless they get swarmed.
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#96
Iakus

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Ahh so you prefer endless spamming of barrier to endless spamming of healing spells.  Not an improvement.  I got really tired of casting that danged spell on my mage.  

Yeah Barrier is the new heal.  

 

I was hoping that removing heal spells meant we were moving away from a trinity style combat model.  But it turns out the trinity is stronger than ever.



#97
Heimdall

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Umm, pretty sure the mage still has to babysit the warrior. I know I had to babysit Cassandra, constantly dropping barrier on her all the time. Guard builds up quick, but it gets eaten through quick to.

And Bull? Holy crap but he dropped like a stone if I didn't constantly feed him a barrier.

So yeah, there really isn't much of a difference.

Was never a problem for my S&S warrior.

#98
Patchwork

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I don't mind the idea of Guard/Barrier but I dislike how mandatory casting and having Barrier feels in DAI. Both of them feel mandatory really but because Guard is a passive build-up I'm less annoyed by it. 

 

Ideally I want to keep the damage mitigation, and give rogues a tweaked version of Isabela's Elusive, but have a single target healing spell available either through the Creation tree or via specialisation. The HealBot justification for taking it away makes no sense because it's not a spell that can be spammed as it has a comparatively long cooldown and will only restore a limited amount of health. It's not so different from drinking a potion, and speaking of potions DAI's were pretty much spells in a bottle fully upgraded Regeneration in particular. 

 

And I miss setting up tactics, the amount of combo opportunities that get missed because I don't see them until it's too late is ridiculous. 



#99
Wulfram

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I think healing was scrapped more to avoid full healing after combat, and thus to allow minor fights to have an attritional effect even if they didn't really threaten to kill the party.


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#100
Zatche

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I think healing was scrapped more to avoid full healing after combat, and thus to allow minor fights to have an attritional effect even if they didn't really threaten to kill the party.


That's how Laidlaw described it as working at the early PAX demo. I liked that aspect to it, having to preserve potions, though it worked better for the linear main story missions than it did the open world.