247 réponses à ce sujet

[Maeshone]

I've played the game I know the mechanics. Like I said having some role playing options does not make it a role playing game.

No, roleplaying makes the game a roleplaying game. Deus Ex allows you to take on and shape the characters and personality of JC Denton, Alex Denton or Adam Jensen. Roleplaying has been the defining factor of RPGs since freaking Dungeons and Dragons first hit kitchen tables around the world. Sure, there were rulesystems and statblocks and character sheets involved, but that's because it's a game and not collaborative storytelling. The roleplaying part is the defining aspect, and no matter what gameplay Deus Ex or Mass Effect decides to put forward, as long as there is an aspect of roleplaying, they are roleplaying games. Simple as.

[Heimdall]

FYI the "what is an RPG" conversation rarely ends well.

[Wolven_Soul]

Well, yes. That's why I say it didn't work as well in the open world. But even with the supply caches and the ability to fast travel back to camp, the limit kept me focused on better protecting my party, and not just phoning it in on the smaller fights.

 

On normal I never had to really pay much attention to it.  On hard though I am having to watch it better.

[Wolven_Soul]

You could say the same with DAO and carrying bucket loads of healing potions (or mana potions to fuel endless healing spells).

 

It's essentially just replaced one level of tedium with another. Now you just either have to spec someone to have Guard, or cart around people to cast Barrier. Plus, the AI doesn't handle it as well as it did healing in DAO, and there's no way you can spec it to go "Cast Barrier on (X) when they're at 20% health)" like you could with abilities/spells in DAO/DA2. Two-hand warriors seem especially fragile until you bludgeon the AI enough so that it actually uses Guard abilities - or find the Fade Touched Item of Guard brokenness.

 

This right here.  My point in a nutshell.  There is no difference between healing spells, and healing potions combined with barriers.  If anything, it was still better in DA:O because with tactics, I didn't have to babysit my party and go in there to make them use things like regen potions.  Or make my mage cast barrier if he's going to slow about it.

[Jester]

This right here.  My point in a nutshell.  There is no difference between healing spells, and healing potions combined with barriers.  If anything, it was still better in DA:O because with tactics, I didn't have to babysit my party and go in there to make them use things like regen potions.  Or make my mage cast barrier if he's going to slow about it.

The problem with DA:O, was a broken mechanic, that went something like this:

 

1. Warrior runs between enemies, uses Taunt.

2. Mage casts Force Field on warrior.

3. You kill all enemies with archers and AOE spells.

 

For easier fights, you go similarly, except instead of Force Field, it's Regeneration and Heal (I set it in Tactics for <50% Health -> Heal, attacked by melee -> Regeneration). And your warrior pretty much cannot die, and enemies can't do anything.

 

In DA2 they fixed that, by making Heal have a long cooldown, decreasing AOE of Taunt, and removing overpowered Regeneration, so you had to actually think in that game. 

[Paul E Dangerously]

The problem with DA:O, was a broken mechanic, that went something like this:

 

1. Warrior runs between enemies, uses Taunt.

2. Mage casts Force Field on warrior.

3. You kill all enemies with archers and AOE spells.

 

For easier fights, you go similarly, except instead of Force Field, it's Regeneration and Heal (I set it in Tactics for <50% Health -> Heal, attacked by melee -> Regeneration). And your warrior pretty much cannot die, and enemies can't do anything.

 

In DA2 they fixed that, by making Heal have a long cooldown, decreasing AOE of Taunt, and removing overpowered Regeneration, so you had to actually think in that game. 

 

You know, I've played - and beaten - DAO more times than I can count, and I don't think I've ever relied on Taunt.

[Yaroub]

You know, I've played - and beaten - DAO more times than I can count, and I don't think I've ever relied on Taunt.

 

I've only used it on Flemeth actually, couldn't beat her without it.

[Wolven_Soul]

Something that also wasn't necessary, because DAO had so many crowd control options. Taking damage at all was largely optional in DAO.
It's a party-based game. If you're not playing on lower difficulty settings, why are you letting the AI handle that?

 

 

It's a party based game but most people, I think, choose their character because that is the one that they want to play.  When I want to play a warrior, I make a warrior.  When I want to play a mage, I make a mage.  I don't want to have to play every character in my party, I want my party to be able to handle itself.  Clearly, they don't in DA:I. 

 

You know, another thing I found recently that's really sad, but the enemy AI is actually a lot better than your companion's AI.  When I charge an enemy archer or mage, they have the intelligence to try and get the heck out of the way.  Archers will move, mages will blink or teleport away.  My archers and mages though?  When an enemy gets up on them, they just stand there and take it while continuing to pluck away with their bow or staff.

[Wolven_Soul]

The problem with DA:O, was a broken mechanic, that went something like this:

 

1. Warrior runs between enemies, uses Taunt.

2. Mage casts Force Field on warrior.

3. You kill all enemies with archers and AOE spells.

 

For easier fights, you go similarly, except instead of Force Field, it's Regeneration and Heal (I set it in Tactics for <50% Health -> Heal, attacked by melee -> Regeneration). And your warrior pretty much cannot die, and enemies can't do anything.

 

In DA2 they fixed that, by making Heal have a long cooldown, decreasing AOE of Taunt, and removing overpowered Regeneration, so you had to actually think in that game. 

 

Okay, yeah, I do agree that the tactics were best in DA2.  I still vastly prefer DA:O's tactics to DA:I's.....whatever it was.

 

I don't know why but it just always feels more natural to go to DA:O than DA:2 when trying to make a point.  

[Jester]

Okay, yeah, I do agree that the tactics were best in DA2.  I still vastly prefer DA:O's tactics to DA:I's.....whatever it was.

 

I don't know why but it just always feels more natural to go to DA:O than DA:2 when trying to make a point.  

I personally enjoy barrier and guard mechanics - if only because of, well, realism.

When in a fight, priority should be not to get hit. Getting mauled and healing afterwards doesn't sound very healthy. 

 

I think there are other things wrong with combat - like slugish movement during fights, lack of tactics screen for companions, horrible party AI, broken Hold Position button, and the fact that DW rogues and TH warriors die like flies when left unattended, for the first half of the game. 

If Barriers and Guard are to be continued in the next installment, I'll be happy.

 

But I think that they should be consistent with one vision. The change in game mechanics and mage spells is almost as apparent as changes in artistic direction between games. 

[Lady Ishtar]

It means exactly what it says. They wouldn't have room for your "Worst of the Worst" award because everyone else gave them "Best of This Year" awards. Though I know your personal award is what really mattered to them so ; ;

 

Should I care about what matters to other people? Did they ask me what I wanted? Said countless times, I can't make anything against them so I will hate them, that's the best I can do. And hate makes me happy, alive and great.
 

 

Turn based character sheet oriented gameplay is not an indicator of an RPG. It is an indicator of a turn based, character oriented game. Deus Ex, Mass Effect and Demon's Souls/Dark Souls/Bloodborne are all RPGs. The defining aspect of any RPG is, quite simply, roleplaying, something that you can do to lesser or greater extent in all those three games. Portal was on the list as an example of an unconventional game, not an RPG.

 

RPG is a game where a character sheet interacts with other character sheet with minor to no involvement of the player, the rest is useless ****.
 

 

Deus Ex is not an action game. It's a first person roleplaying game. 

Hell, it has character sheet, different skills, shooting your gun or using weapons depends mostly on your skill (targetting reticule's size depends on your skill), it has dialogues, choices, and the way you play has consequences and is referenced by NPCs.

 

Demon/Dark souls has character sheet, attribute progression, your efficiency in combat depends on your equipment and character build, just as much as it depends on your skill.

 

KOTOR 2 is obviously a better game, sadly it arrived unfinished and bugged, meaning it had no chance of winning GOTY in the first place. 

 

Portal 2 is a puzzle game, not an action game. 

 

Turn based combat in a cRPG is a bad idea. It makes for a weak gameplay - hence why Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and Torment went for semi-turn based gameplay (Neverwinter Nights did the same), and the result is, that the combat in those games is far, far superior to combat in Fallout 1&2, which is fully turn based.

Yeah, ok, so in short, these games all sux and are not RPG and you like action **** in RPGs. Meaning you hate RPGs because RPGs are a game where a floating character sheet interacts with another character sheet with minor to no player involvement.
Until DAO there were still a bit of RPG, like 2%, in DA2 something like 0.5%, DAI is 100% action game no RPG.

RPG IS ROLEPLAYING. Yeah, thats the meaning of the words but hey, in videogames and computer IN EVERY SINGLE GAME you are roleplaying, sorry to break your illusion =(    SOOOO SAAAD
But FIFA is RPG, NBA is RPG, Mario Kart is RPG. If you roleplay Mario and make decisions then your are roleplaying.
So since I'm not fond of definitions that do not define anything, I'd rather go with mine that actually defines a lot and allows us to classify a genre that means **** these days because people started calling RPG any trash they wanted.

 

[BansheeOwnage]

 

-The fact that one archer ability can only be used if on higher ground doesn't impress me. At all. You just back up slightly to where the terrain is 6 inches higher and can use it...ooh how tactical!

Do you mean the passive ability? I thought having a passive like that was cool, though I'd hate it an activated ability required higher ground to use.

 

It apparently works great with controllers. That's awesome.

 

Mouse and Keyboard, not so much.

A lot of the clunkiness you mentioned applies to controllers too. DA:I's just clunky

[Sylvius the Mad]

You know, another thing I found recently that's really sad, but the enemy AI is actually a lot better than your companion's AI.  When I charge an enemy archer or mage, they have the intelligence to try and get the heck out of the way.  Archers will move, mages will blink or teleport away.  My archers and mages though?  When an enemy gets up on them, they just stand there and take it while continuing to pluck away with their bow or staff.

They have different objectives.  The enemy AI is trying to stay alive.  It prioritizes that over killing you.

 

Your companion AI is trying to kill the enemy.  It prioritizes that over staying alive.

[BansheeOwnage]

They have different objectives.  The enemy AI is trying to stay alive.  It prioritizes that over killing you.

 

Your companion AI is trying to kill the enemy.  It prioritizes that over staying alive.

Shouldn't that be up to you, though? To have them act more offensively or defensively?

[Iakus]

 

Your companion AI is trying to kill the enemy.  It prioritizes that over staying alive.

If they're dead, they do 0 DPS, though.

[Dr. rotinaj]

IMO DA2 combat > DAO combat > DAI combat

 

I felt that DA2 improved the combat in almost every way. The fatal flaw was encounter design and enemies spawning out of thin air. The lack of tac-cam was a bit of a bummer but I didn't find it that bad.

 

But DA2 made every class feel fun and important on the the battlefield. It wasn't like DAO where mages were absurdly more powerful than other classes and cross-class combos where a mage-only thing. I think a lot of people are forgetting that DAO had some serious balancing issues. There were many spells/talents/etc on both extremes of the useless vs overpowered spectrum. Often times unlocking a good spell required unlocking three other skills that you would never use. We even had entire specializations like Ranger and Shapeshifter that were trash, especially compared to ridiculous specs like Arcane Warrior.

 

I still really enjoyed DAO's combat though. I thought the tactics, strategy and planning made up for the slow gameplay. I like setting things up so I don't need to provide too much direct input. Ideally I'm only jumping in to drop a glyph or heal someone or direct attacks at a certain enemy. DAO was really good with that and it's a shame that DAI seemed to throw it away.

 

Now I like DAI, but I have almost nothing nice to say about the combat, at least on PC. No click to move, god awful tac-cam, no drag-select for party members, no tactics, no auto-attack at launch. There's this really annoying encouragement on playing one character and letting the AI do it's thing. Like if I'm playing a warrior or a rogue I have to navigate my way into my enemy's hitbox and start hacking away. Now that would be fun in an action game, but as much as DAI tries it isn't an action game. There aren't any fancy combat animations or quick fights, the enemies have more health so the same sword slash animation gets pretty tedious over the course of 100+ hours. I literally can't finish my DW rogue or warrior inquisitors because it's so tedious.

 

As for healing. I'm not really against the idea of getting rid of healspam, there's potential for fun tactical and strategic stuff. But they just didn't really do that, they swapped healspam for guard/barrier spam which I believe is even worse. While we did have easy healing in DAO, the combat wasn't designed completely around it. We had sustainables, buffs, unlimited potions, etc. We could make a bunch of non-mage parties that relied on killing before being hurt and used pots in a pinch. In DAI, EVERYTHING is built around guard and barrier, half the damn buffs and passives in the game are related to improving your barrier/guard. It is almost necessary to have a mage with barrier and a warrior who can build guard. So yeah, congrats you got rid of healspam but replaced it with something that severely damages party diversity and still requires spamming.

 

Funny enough, I don't really thing the 8 ability limit is a problem in DAI. I've never felt like I really needed a ninth skill. Even if I look at DA2 and DAO, I can't really think of more than 8 skills that I absolutely must have. Maybe in Awakening, but that destroyed DAO's balance anyway.

[BansheeOwnage]

If they're dead, they do 0 DPS, though.

Too bad the AI doesn't use logic. If we could set tactics, it could use our logic. Alas, it was not to be.

[Darkly Tranquil]

If they're dead, they do 0 DPS, though.

The immortal words of frustrated raid leaders the world over.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Shouldn't that be up to you, though? To have them act more offensively or defensively?

Absolutely.

I'm just saying that comparing their effectiveness doesn't work because they're too dissimilar.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Too bad the AI doesn't use logic. If we could set tactics, it could use our logic. Alas, it was not to be.

They really were on the right track with DA2's Tactics system. The next step should have been to give us a full API for programming the AI.

[BansheeOwnage]

They really were on the right track with DA2's Tactics system. The next step should have been to give us a full API for programming the AI.

That would be pretty cool.

[Maeshone]

Should I care about what matters to other people? Did they ask me what I wanted? Said countless times, I can't make anything against them so I will hate them, that's the best I can do. And hate makes me happy, alive and great.
 

 

 

RPG is a game where a character sheet interacts with other character sheet with minor to no involvement of the player, the rest is useless ****.
 

 

Yeah, ok, so in short, these games all sux and are not RPG and you like action **** in RPGs. Meaning you hate RPGs because RPGs are a game where a floating character sheet interacts with another character sheet with minor to no player involvement.
Until DAO there were still a bit of RPG, like 2%, in DA2 something like 0.5%, DAI is 100% action game no RPG.

RPG IS ROLEPLAYING. Yeah, thats the meaning of the words but hey, in videogames and computer IN EVERY SINGLE GAME you are roleplaying, sorry to break your illusion =(    SOOOO SAAAD
But FIFA is RPG, NBA is RPG, Mario Kart is RPG. If you roleplay Mario and make decisions then your are roleplaying.
So since I'm not fond of definitions that do not define anything, I'd rather go with mine that actually defines a lot and allows us to classify a genre that means **** these days because people started calling RPG any trash they wanted.

 

"RPG is a game where a character sheet interacts with other character sheet with minor to no involvement of the player, the rest is useless ****."

 

By this logic, even tabletop RPGs aren't proper RPGs, as they require quite a lot of involvement from the player, even in regards to their character sheet. And that is quite honestly a stupid position to hold as they started the RPG genre.

 

As for the games sucking, this is probably where I stopped taking you seriously. The fact that you don't like games does not mean they suck, I don't like sports games, That doesn't mean I don't see the appeal they hold for other people, and they are generally pretty well made.

 

Also, in regards to "every game is a roleplaying game". That is a rather huge leap. No, FIFA or Mario Kart or Call of Duty aren't roleplaying games. Sure, you play a character that exists, but you don't shape the story, you don't shape the personality you don't form your own characters. Roleplaying is forming a characters personality and then acting out the way they would react to and interact with other people in the world. Sure, The Witcher or Deus Ex gives you a predefined character, meaning they are a bit lighter on the actual roleplaying content than say, Mass Effect or Dragon Age, but premade characters have been a thing since someone decided to help their friends out before their first Dungeons & Dragons game night way back when.

[Wolven_Soul]

They have different objectives.  The enemy AI is trying to stay alive.  It prioritizes that over killing you.

 

Your companion AI is trying to kill the enemy.  It prioritizes that over staying alive.

 

Well...see...the thing of it is, staying alive is pretty darned important when it comes to killing an enemy.  Can't kill a danged thing when your laying on the ground.

[Wolven_Soul]

The immortal words of frustrated raid leaders the world over.

 

50 dkp minus!!!

 

Sorry, couldn't help myself.  

[Wolven_Soul]

Absolutely.

I'm just saying that comparing their effectiveness doesn't work because they're too dissimilar.

 

It does work.  The enemy AI is simply put, better than the companion AI.  The enemy AI is trying just as hard to kill you, they just have the good sense to get out of the way before trying to cast another spell.