85 réponses à ce sujet

[Secret Rare]

It's very easy for her to disappear through an Eluvian. And in Witch Hunt, she waited you even if the Warden has an intent to kill her.

Wait a moment.

I believe that you didn't paid attention to the scene because maybe you didn't take the option in the Dlc.

Is the Warden who push Morrigan through the mirror with the other hand the left hand,not Morrigan who manage to escape.

Also in that scene i already said this elsewhere,the Eluvian is still functional,there is literally no reason for the warden to not cross the mirror to see if she is dead and finish her,she is protected by plot armor for DAI.

 

 

edit also for the other post

it is betrayal,she joined and she accepted the responsability to follow the Warden ,if she leave is desertion,i agreed on this with other users into another topic,maybe you have not even played the Dlc in the non ogb version and you have not even listened to her conversation in which the Warden can accuse her of desertion,the voice acting is completly different.

there isn't the dialogue in which she say

"and here you stand alive so do n ot speak to me of betrayal" because she didn't saved you,she deserted you and even suggested to save an Old god,you're target and the enemy of the nation.

[blahblahblah]

 

Wait a moment.

I believe that you didn't paid attention to the scene because maybe you didn't take the option in the Dlc.

Is the Warden who push Morrigan through the mirror with the other hand the left hand,not Morrigan who manage to escape.

Also in that scene i already said this elsewhere,the Eluvian is still functional,there is literally no reason for the warden to not cross the mirror to see if she is dead and finish her,she is protected by plot armor for DAI.

 

It is you who didn't pay attention, she can leave anytime to the Eluvian since its functional but waited you instead. Stop with your Morrigan hating bias will you? 

 

Edit: Morrigan is not part of the Wardens from the beginning just like anyone who joined you along the way and your assertions of betrayal towards her are laughable.

[Vlada47]

 

 even suggested to save an Old god,you're target and the enemy of the nation.

 

Oh, so it's for the suggestion of other option she's the number one enemy, ok...    I'm glad I wasn't in your group, because I often throw suggestions left and right if I can think of some.

Anyway... could you explain to me, how sparing the old god soul goes against Warden's goal? You have to kill the Archdemon -> stop the Blight... destroying the soul is a necessary effect of this process... until Morrigan suggest (perish the thought) you can do it differently. Yes it's questionable decision, because you don't exactly know, what she's planing with it - that's where you can have your Warden say "no", because your fear of the consequences, because you don't trust/like Morrigan... this I can totally respect and understand.

[Secret Rare]

It is you who didn't pay attention, she can leave anytime to the Eluvian since its functional but waited you instead. Stop with your Morrigan hating bias will you? 

 

Edit: Morrigan is not part of the Wardens from the beginning just like anyone who joined you along the way and your assertions of betrayal towards her are laughable.

It is you who continue to babble futility as i said the eluvian is still functional at the ending,she cannot perceive the Warden (in my case i have no ring) and is the Warden who after the stabbing do not cross the mirror to finish Morrigan due to plot armor,do i have to repeat this again? the eluvian is still functional ready to be used to finish her.

Also it is betrayal from the group perspective,who join the Warden willingly 

(i even asked to Morrigan in the korcari if this was what she wanted,she answer positively)only to try to use the group for her own purpose, she failed  she immidieatly deserted the main goal and she inserted herself only o get the chance of performing the ritual whe this was denied she deserted IT IS BETRAYAL and DESERTION from the group perspective.

The option to accuse her of betrayal is there into the Dlc on purpose and it is justified.

End i will not replay anymore for a fanboy.

Oh, so it's for the suggestion of other option she's the number one enemy, ok...    I'm glad I wasn't in your group, because I often throw suggestions left and right if I can think of some.

Anyway... could you explain to me, how sparing the old god soul goes against Warden's goal? You have to kill the Archdemon -> stop the Blight... destroying the soul is a necessary effect of this process... until Morrigan suggest (perish the thought) you can do it differently. Yes it's questionable decision, because you don't exactly know, what she's planing with it - that's where you can have your Warden say "no", because your fear of the consequences, because you don't trust/like Morrigan... this I can totally respect and understand.

The main goal of the Warden are not just stop the blights,but kill all the old gods to end the blights  forever,spare an old god go against the Wardens path and main goal,which is not just to kill the Archdemons but the old gods as well.

The GW will even try to kill the old gods in their sleep given the chance.

Morrigan deserted the group after that the ritual was denied.

She possess the knowledge of the Dark ritual that can revert the destiny of the  the old gods, try to finish her is highly justifiable,so that she may not pass the ritual to anyone else.

And no In my group anyone is fine,i have even reedemd Loghain,Morrigan is the only one who was attacked.

[Aren]

 

 

Edit: Morrigan is not part of the Wardens from the beginning just like anyone who joined you along the way and your assertions of betrayal towards her are laughable.

Ultimately this is irrelevant, whether she is to be considered a witch, a mercenary, a volunteer or a subordinate she leaves the main warden after having attempted to use the critical situation to her personal advantage,  fooled the protagonist and having made a promise that was not kept on the 1st grimoire.

Morrigan on the circle quest " if you will find this i will be more usfeul to you against the blight" yet she did no maintained those words

 

To betray, some shades of its definition:

-to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling:to betray a trust.

-to deceive, misguide, or corrupt

Morrigan may fit for both categories.

Her being not directly harmful doesn't disqualify the betrayal from some of its definitions.

As far as i'm concerned none of your arguments disqualified this,when the ritual is refused Morrigan become by the definition a traitor under a specific perspective that is ultimately correct

 

betrayal is a word with a lot of shades,lie and a decive are things that may be considered as a personal betrayal for the Warden hence why the option is there in Wh,the Warden may be  felt betrayed without being absolutely wrong.

 

Deceive:

to ​persuade someone that something ​false is the ​truth, or to ​keep the ​truth ​hidden from someone for ​your own ​advantage

 

Lie:

a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture:

 

 

 

that was basically what Morrigan did and she even admit in Wh.

personally me as a person i don't like this kind of persons.

 

 

Since let us not forget that she inserted herself into the group to obtain the ogb demanding it at the eve of battle when the Warden was possibly at a moment of weakness only to left with a glare or smile depend on relationship and wished for to them the best regrets

(what she say to a romanced Warden).

A romanced or a friend warden  can be easily felt betrayed by someone who they thought was there to help rather than try to gain something from them.

[Vlada47]

 

The main goal of the Warden are not just stop the blights,but kill all the old gods to end the blights  forever,spare an old god go against the Wardens path and main goal,which is not just to kill the Archdemons but the old gods as well.

 

 

And where is that stated exactly? I'm not saying it's not true, I just don't remember reading or hearing this...

 

 

As for justification of killing her... depending on the view of the person you can justify pretty much anything, even stuff that would 99% of people considered absolutely horrendous. I really wouldn't dare to claim something as justified or otherwise.

[Tidus]

A volunteer can not desert and Morrigan is a forced volunteer place in our group by Flemeth in order to get the old God spirit . The only members of our group that is sworn to fight the blight is Alistair and the PC other the others is free to leave if they so choose to do so.

 

Our happy group is a rag time guerrilla operation gathering a Army and nothing more since they are going against the Gray Warden's policy of being a neutral operation that fights darkspawn and not interfering with politics.

[Secret Rare]

And where is that stated exactly? I'm not saying it's not true, I just don't remember reading or hearing this...

 

 

 

GW are incapable to reach the prisons of the old gods directly,but their battle is against them as well

(codex entry of DAO in which is mentioned that they will continue to exist until the last old god will exist),this is why they are working on a way to reach the old gods before the blights

They tried and failed in DAI Western approach,post Inquisiton they are developing a new method that will involve Disciples of the Darkspawn.

And no there are many horrendous things to do in game 

(like suggest to kill children,slaves ecc,which are things that Morrigan suggested to do for nothing more than pampering her ego) but attack Morrigan in WH is not even remotely an horrendous thing to do.

[Secret Rare]

A volunteer can not desert and Morrigan is a forced volunteer place in our group by Flemeth 

 

Players are always trying to blame Flemeth for everything,no Morrigan accepted,she was not forced by Flemeth,Flemeth give her a choice,she decided to try to save the AD.

Also the Warden can ask if this is what she really want(in her hut),as i said she answered positively to my question and accepted the duty ,she was not forced by  anyone.

when she leave is desertion,plain and simple like everyone else who joined you to combat the blight.

Also people are always using Alistair examples because he is a GW,but it doesn't work because he is a GW,you cannot give to him order you're not the first Warden, he can leave and abandon the mission like everyone,is the fact that he make a promise to help the Warden that transform this in betrayal,if a promise is broken is betrayal.

I asked this to Morrigan in her hut she answered positively only to break her promise later..

Warden "is this what you want to follow me"?

Morrigan "yes is what i want i want to help you and in the meantime see the outside world"

she break a promise made to the Warden because she leave prior to the final mission while her goal was the Dark ritual since the very start,she even lie the whole time.

lies+a promise broken to me is betrayal

[Tidus]

I think Morrigan and Flemeth agreed to the scheme and the discussion was a put on show for the wardens. Flemeth tracks Morrigan and the God child down in DA:I..

 

Ever wonder why Morrigan is easier to bed then Leliana? At first Morrian says she doesn't want to interfere with your freedom then once the PC male character starts wooing Leliana she becomes jealous and I suspect that's because she's worried about the ritual to get the Godchild her mother wants. If that story line is followed.

 

I still entertain the thought she learns about the ritual and decides she wants to keep the Godchild and wants Flemeth eliminated.

[Secret Rare]

I think Morrigan and Flemeth agreed to the scheme and the discussion was a put on show for the wardens. 

yes  THIS SO MUCH THIS,but you as a player cannot know this until redclieffe,it was a show to trick the Warden,Morrigan was already prepared for her mission since the very  start.

when Flemeth said

"you will join them girl"

Morrigan respond "What?!" and she act surprising,also she reveal to you the ritual in the greatest moment of weakeness and desperation not before.

I take that players may love her for various reason(my female warden don't romance her) but this can't deny what she's doing,deceiving,manipulation

 (especially if male warden) ,lies and if the dark ritual is refused she broke a promise and commit desertion.

[blahblahblah]

You're not the one who define the meaning of betrayal,if you don't believe that she betrayed the warden is only your perspective and not mine.
It is betrayal from my perspective,she first willingly decided to join the party,she later decided to desert when the ritual was denied,she abandon the main goal before of it's conclusion,and she inserted herself only to use the power of the group to gain the AD soul and the OGB,when this was denied she deserted the Warden despite the fact that she willingly decided to join,it is betrayal from the group/main goal perspective,the option is even there into the DLC because is justified.
she do not furfill the mission and she leave because she failed in the attemept to use the warden as an obedient tool.
Again for my perspective,and even someone else is betrayal,stop preteding to possess the truth

If that's your faulty reasoning to the matter then I have nothing to add. Some people wanted to make any lame excuses to justify
their hate on a fictional character.

[blahblahblah]

GW are incapable to reach the prisons of the old gods directly,but their battle is against them as well
(codex entry of DAO in which is mentioned that they will continue to exist until the last old god will exist),this is why they are working on a way to reach the old gods before the blights
They tried and failed in DAI Western approach,post Inquisiton they are developing a new method that will involve Disciples of the Darkspawn.
And no there are many horrendous things to do in game 
(like suggest to kill children,slaves ecc,which are things that Morrigan suggested to do for nothing more than pampering her ego) but attack Morrigan in WH is not even remotely an horrendous thing to do.

Attacking someone that never commit a treason is a very horrendous thing to do especially since she waited you to come for her. If she's guilty then why she doesn't leave on the Eluvian immediately?

[Gaia300]

If that's your faulty reasoning to the matter then I have nothing to add. Some people wanted to make any lame excuses to justify
their hate on a fictional character.

Albeit this topic was about high treason which is something different than betrayal and it was resolved 

(no high treason here,Morrigan is a chasind not a citizen of Ferelden)

I will add my last comment then let the topic sleep.

Is not a matter of hate is a matter of perspective,we are just discussing the two versions of Morrigan's adventure in the game,ritual or non ritual,,there are several ending after all.

There are plenty of old discussions here into the forum regarding this specific trip and the most complex discussion happened when the ritual is refused.

here is my thought

1)If the DR is performed the solution is pretty simple, Morrigan maintain her original promise and stay until the end,she was deceiving the Warden but she keep her promise until the AD die.

2)DR refused.

This is a more complex situation,what we have to consider is that Morrigan do not offer a choice in this case,she offer an ultimatum at the last minute,without prior warning,if you refuse she leave and she do not fulfill and maintain her words also she was deceiving the Warden since the beginning.

Now,if you have played Dragon age Inquisition,you will notice that, there is a similar situation,Morrigan is working for the inquisition willingly because the empress asked and suggested this to her.

Now,in the temple of  Mythal when she abandon the Inquisitor(when he pursue Abelas,the crow scene) to try to absorb the well i did not consider her action as betrayal,because she didn't commit the same mistake that she do in DAO,in fact if the Inquisitor use the well at her place,she is angry,but she do not leave the inquisition to return to the emperess.

Morrigan is a volunteer/advisor into the Inquisiton but she is still working for Celene not for the Inquisitor ,still she did not abandoned the Inquisitor because of the well,she made a promise of aid to the Inquisitor she maintain the promise regardless.

Young Morrigan of Origins is different she abandon the Warden possibly a friend a lover after a promise of aid, for a Dragon that was not even worth the effort (imho).

she do not even remain to try to defend the Warden in battle in Denerim.

 

 

Now in my game (female Warden mage) Alistair ending sacrifice 

(he decided to stop my sacrifice sorry but sent  him to another woman was not an option)

Morrgan abandoned the group after her promise of aid,but she was also decieving the Warden from the very beggining,she leave and break her promise of  aid

(after Flemeth quest,i have helped her she even said

 "let us reurn to our goal to deal with the darkspawn,there is still much to be done"

She promised something,she abandoned myy Warden in my game,she traded a friend because of power.

This can be seen as personal betrayal,i accused her of desertion in WH

she said in her defence:"you have abandoned me"  

which is something completly untrue she popped this plan at the last minute without warning and she gave to me the ultimatum,leave or take it was not a choice at all.

I let her go,coldly then travel  to the west.

[Secret Rare]

Attacking someone that never commit a treason is a very horrendous thing to do especially since she waited you to come for her. If she's guilty then why she doesn't leave on the Eluvian immediately?

Horrendous? Ah! the only horrendous things were suggested by Morrigan during the game

Since it seems that you're very persistent i will respond immediately,but as i said i already said this in another topic.

I do not know what Origin you have picked for DAO,but my action towards Morrigan were not leaded only because of the betrayal

(yes i do perceive her actions as such,don't care if you don't )

my actions were leaded by revenge,this is an option that the developers have rightfully introduced into the Dlc.

My Warden which is basically the female elf into the avatar at a certain point of the adventure was fighting Caladrius into the alienage to save her friends and father.

Morrigan which was in high friendship (i have even helped her against Flemeth)

suggested to sell on slavery my father and my warden's friends.

Then when the magister was defeated she suggested to sacrifice them all for blood magic (my Warden father included).

Attack her after that she have deserted in Redclieffe and suggested to kill my own father and friends was jutice as far as i'm concerned

bye

with this i'm done stop pretending from me on how i have to feel about Morrigan,stop! But most of all i don't need to justify myself with anyone on whatever i do in my game

[Vlada47]

It's kinda funny to watch, when both sides get so defensive...

 

Anyway... being pissed at Morrigan after she suggested to having your relatives killed is obviously understandable, but take a revenge for... what exactly? I mean she didn't do anything there, she just told you, how she sees the situation (as inhuman view as it is). If I did that with every person that suggested I do something I'm strongly against (or being bullied into something)... I would be a serial killer at this point.

 

Yes she suggested to hand over your (meaning your Warden's) relatives into slavery, but you have the option to completely ignore her and then tell her to pack her things and go, that's kinda fair deal. She's pushing you into doing dark ritual, but you can just flip a bird and she ends with nothing... There's no problem that she caused in those situations... or you need her so badly in the final battle?

 

You are of course right that slavery and murder of children is generally more horrendous, than attempt to kill Morrigan for whatever reason you deem that necessary. But killing somebody on a principle... that doesn't have anything to do with justice... it really doesn't.

[Serza]

Morrigan's actions aim to preserve a friendly asset, if anything.

 

An asset that, if preserved, will continue to deal casualties to the hostile force.

 

Where's this supposed high treason you claim?

[Tidus]

As far as killing Morrigan I would have done that at the first battle of Redcliff but,she is not as expendable as Sten,Shale or carry me along Alistair..

 

You see after Zevran joins I convert to using my three rogues my elf,Leliana and Zevran backed by Morrigan or Wynne since slicing and dicing is my style of game play..All three rogues are fairly strong tanks.

.

[Vlada47]

Morrigan's actions aim to preserve a friendly asset, if anything.

 

An asset that, if preserved, will continue to deal casualties to the hostile force.

 

Well I wouldn't go that far... old god's soul is both potentially dangerous and potentially useful to carry around. That's how I see this particular choice - it's not clearly good or evil, you can argue for both decisions. What I'd hope to get from that is better understanding what exactly old gods were and getting rid of tons of superstition crap the Chantry throws at our heads.

[Mike3207]

It's not treason, but it's not going to win her a lot of friends either. She's leaving your group during the battle with one less mage, something that could have made a difference in the battle.

[Vlada47]

She's leaving your group during the battle with one less mage, something that could have made a difference in the battle.

I'm not going to argue that... her Blood Wound made a joke off those big groups of darkspawn.

[nightscrawl]

So... you want to accuse her of treason -- typically carries the penalty of death -- just because she suggested something? Keep in mind that a suggestion is really all it is. It is ultimately up to the Warden PC to accept or reuse the idea of the DR because if it is refused then it isn't done and the Old God's soul poofs out of existence.

[Secret Rare]

Morrigan's actions aim to preserve a friendly asset, if anything.

 

 

If you're reffering to the old god you cannot know if it is a friednly assets,there is always the chance that can get corrupted again.

 

It's kinda funny to watch, when both sides get so defensive...

 

Anyway... being pissed at Morrigan after she suggested to having your relatives killed is obviously understandable, but take a revenge for... what exactly? I mean she didn't do anything there, she just told you, how she sees the situation (as inhuman view as it is). If I did that with every person that suggested I do something I'm strongly against (or being bullied into something)... I would be a serial killer at this point.

 

Yes she suggested to hand over your (meaning your Warden's) relatives into slavery, but you have the option to completely ignore her and then tell her to pack her things and go, that's kinda fair deal. She's pushing you into doing dark ritual, but you can just flip a bird and she ends with nothing... There's no problem that she caused in those situations... or you need her so badly in the final battle?

 

You are of course right that slavery and murder of children is generally more horrendous, than attempt to kill Morrigan for whatever reason you deem that necessary. But killing somebody on a principle... that doesn't have anything to do with justice... it really doesn't.

I'm not defensive i have never being defensive in my life,i simply state directly what i think without any problem,as for Morrigan what she suggested i perceived as a personal insult,a personal attack,and yes i have dismissed her after that event(i already said this in another topic),and she returned without my consent at Redcliffe for the OGB(finally her double game revealed).

She even said in that conversation"seek my out at your risk and peril"

yes it was  revenge and justice as well,had my warden not been there she would have gladly sacrificed the elves,not to mention that she continue to steal resources from the elves even in the Dlc,my squadmate Arianne was also hunting her,it was justice for my Warden,justice for Arianne since that she deceived even her clan.

[Secret Rare]

So... you want to accuse her of treason -- typically carries the penalty of death -- just because she suggested something? Keep in mind that a suggestion is really all it is. It is ultimately up to the Warden PC to accept or reuse the idea of the DR because if it is refused then it isn't done and the Old God's soul poofs out of existence.

he was talking from a King/general warden perspective i think,whcih have more autority than my canon warden,militaristic point of view.

she suggested to save the enemy of the nation to the king in person.

[Akiza]

 

 i have dismissed her after that event(i already said this in another topic),and she returned without my consent at Redcliffe 

 

 

 

 

You are of course right that slavery and murder of children is generally more horrendous, than attempt to kill Morrigan for whatever reason you deem that necessary. But killing somebody on a principle... that doesn't have anything to do with justice... it really doesn't.

I do not know on how to consider this,if she was dismissed by the Warden but she return without consent

(to use the Warden in this case,only to use the Warden not to help him/her because if the ritual is refused she leave again)then i can understand the revenge option/intent of the Warden ,especially for the alienage events.

As for a Dalish Warden,sure why not? For my Dalish it was justice not revange,she stole from a dalish clan and she deceived the keeper,in my case it works pretty well,the book doesn't belong to her,it doesn't matter if in the end she returned the book,Arianne risked her life to reach the Dragon bones lands,if it was not for the Warden the book would have been stolen forever.