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(Major Spoilers) Accumulated Lore, Ancient (Elvhen), SolaFen + Theories & Discussions


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FrankWisdom

FrankWisdom
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Ok, so I'm new to these threads and forums. I've been playing Dragon Age since it came out and love the lore. I also enjoy very much so the parallel's with our own history such as Christianity, Native American (Elvhen) and European (Human) relations, Communism (Qunari), the loss of one's culture and romanticism/wishful thinking of a golden age lost along with how things actually were. (I'm Metis, that is, I'm Native American/European among other things, which is why I'm disappointed in the lack of an elf-blooded PC choice for race, but I digress).

 

Now I'm sure this has been discussed Immeasurably and some people might be tired of hearing theories, conjectures etc but I'm not. I want to discuss my thoughts and what I've learned with whoever is interested. I think starting a new thread might add fresh perspectives, rejuvenate interests and help craft something that's easily accessible or rather, easy to find for those who are looking to inform themselves or simply those trying to deepen their understanding of what we've established so far. It could also serve as a compendium of sorts for Major discoveries and plot points. If enough people comment I could keep updating as more content is released for Dragon Age: Inquisition or other media such as books and comics.

 

I hope I encourage others to build upon and either reinforce or contend with my theories through constructive critcism and intelligible arguments and discussions. I know I'm asking a lot from the internet, but if you share my enthusiasm, then I doubt my requests will feel like a hindrance or unreasonable in any way.

With that out of the way I will structure this with numbered bullet-points based on theme and then subsequently pair each numbered bullet-point with detailed thoughts (and theories) about what we've discovered so far. This is all taken from the diverse media that relates and details the Dragon Age lore pertaining to Ancient and Elvhen history, legends and character dialogue (mainly Solas, Flemeth and Felassan).
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Bullet-points/referenced themes

 

1. Ancient Elvhen culture

 

2. Downfall of The Elvhen Pantheon and their peoples

 

3 .Before The Veil and Great Dragons

 

4. Old Gods & The Golden City

 

5A.  Elvhen Panthen & The Forgotten Ones
  B. Imprisonment: Location & status; Creation of the Veil

  C. The Eighth Old God

 

6A. SolaFen (How he came to be)
  B. Fen'Harel's Motivations

  C. SolaFen & FleMythal End Scene

 

7. Lyrium & Dwarves

 

8. Felessan

 

9. Qunari
 

 

 

1. Ancient Elvhen culture

 

So from what Solas and Felassan have stated, Elvhen culture wasn't the idealistic, noble and respected society that the Dalish believe it to have once been. In fact, it seems it was as bad, if not worse, then what we've seen in the Tevinter Imperium and Orlais, both in terms of social classes/social status and in the liberal use and abuse of magic. examples of this are given by Solas. An example of the status quo pertaining to social classes is his explanation behind the true significance of Vallaslin (blood writing). He states that

 

"In the days of Arlathan, the tattoos were not signs of patronage to the various elven gods but, in fact, slave markings--signs of ownership--when noble elves enslaved the lower classes; they were representations of the gods that the nobles favored. Abelas and the Sentinels of the Temple of Mythal have vallaslin dedicated to Mythal, etched on their faces."

 

A text on the carved tablet found in the Temple of Mythal tells of "the eventual failing" of elven markings, that lead to "the inevitable and troubling freedom".

 

This is great exposition for Solas as a character, who effectively lacks such markings. Given the religious significance ascribed to them by the Dalish, if they actually held such humble beginnings, one would think SolaFen might sport them, or some ancient incarnation, that honored the past, seeing as he wants to restore what was lost. You could argue that this would be counterproductive to hiding his true nature or even that Fen'Harel's host (Solas) was not of the Dalish when they bonded (more on that later), though again, one could argue that once said bonding was achieved, SolaFen could have applied them afterwards. Either way, this revelation is so very ironic when you think about Dalish behvior and beliefs. They chastise City elves for basically living like slaves among the "Shems" while they wear slave "tramp stamps" upon their own faces. I feel differently now each time I look at my Dalish Inquisitor, proudly sporting his Blue tinted complex Mythal facial Tramp Stamp... facepalm.

 

Now, we also have heard that each God had imperfections and weaknesses akin to Mortal failings i.e. they were fallible like all of us. This led to many wars, injustices, revenge and misplaced reverence bringing inner strife within the Kingdom of Arlathan. The second aspect I spoke of, the "liberal use and abuse of magic" was less about magic and more about power, since for the Elvhen people, magic was "as natural as breathing" in a place where there were "spires of crystal twining through the branches, palaces floating among the clouds." (presumably before the veil, more on that later).  What I meant was that the God's often would leverage their positions in order to satisfy their fickle natures, their whims and wants at the cost of countless lives. Magic was, of course at the heart of these issues, not the cause but rather the tool wielded, twisted and repurposed by decadence and for nefarious ends (much like humanity has done countless times with technology).

 

Andruil was one such God, who slowly lost herself to the corruption suffered from entering the "Void" or "The Abyss" which supposedly is the "Forgotten Ones" realm. This corruption led to countless natural disasters in her own lands as well as the degradation of her mental health. This behavior then eventually led to a confrontation with Mythal, in which she was stripped of her newly attained magic (the corruption from "The Void", which I contend is the equivalent of what's referred to as "blight magic" in the Dragon Age) and key knowledge, namely, how to find her way into the abyss, therefore averting any other escapades that would lead her astray or more importantly, that would jeopardize the lives of the rest of her Pantheon as well as all of their servants. This is simply one legend among many that highlight such power being corrupted, but note that a lot of misgivings were wrought without the touch of these "Forgotten Ones" but rather by pride alone. From this particular tale however, we can easily allude to what The World of Thedas has been subjected to countless times, i.e. Blights, which also corrupt ancient beings to devastating effect (more on this later).
 

 

2. Downfall of The Elvhen Pantheon and their peoples

 

 

So now we've established what life could have been like for the Elvhen at the height of their power, but what of their downfall? Enter Fen'Harel... The Trickster, or was he. it is claimed Fen'Harel tricked and betrayed both the "Forgotten Ones" and the Elvhen Pantheon into being eternally imprisoned. One must ask himself however, to what end? In Mythal's Palace we uncover ancient writings that would offer another explanation. Harel was in fact misinterpreted or mistranslated. Rather than being the trickster god, he was the rebel god. If what's been said by Solas and Felassan holds any weight, then this label would make perfect sense. Given what we know of SolaFen's views and virtues (namely, his hatred towards enslavement, regimes that dissuade or prevent free-thinking and freewill etc.), then a picture can slowly start forming with a frame of reference in hand.

Fen'Harel, dissatisfied with the treatment and quality of life that the lower class Elvhen people were given, decided to rebel against his brothers, looking to right their wrongs, single-handedly, thinking perhaps, that their followers could do better without them. I'm guessing he also figured that if his brethren were to be absent, so to, would the "Forgotten Ones" have to be dealt with. An exert from the Codex entry: Geldauran's claim not only reinforces the state of affairs noted in Elvhenan, but also at "The Forgotten Ones" danger. It also gives insight into what god's actually were.

i.e. "There are no gods. There is only the subject and the object, the actor and the acted upon. Those with will to earn dominance over others gain title not by nature but by deed."

 

This would indicate that these god's were very powerful magic users or spirits (or something in-between) that assumed dominion over their (the Elvhen) peoples (akin to Pharaoh's in Ancient Egypt who were seen as favored by the god's or even physical incarnations of such beings) through their actions rather than through divine nature. The only point of contention one could make would be how Mythal and Fen'Harel are able to transfer their essence the same way Archdemons and Corypheus has.  This could be the manifestation of Ancient Elvhen magic wielded only by the most powerful, or it could have to do with how the world once was before the veil (more on that later).

 

Without the Pantheon to rival "The Forgotten Ones", a worst fate would claim the Elvhen, therefore Fen'Harel acted, taking it upon himself to stop both parties. Abelas claims the Elvhen brought destruction upon themselves, long before the Tevinter imperium came in contact with them. He also mentions Fen'Harel was not to blame for Mythal's "murder" indicating he had the best of intentions when "betraying" his brothers and sisters and wanted no harm to come to them. I believe the only betrayal that was made was by the Pantheon itself, who betrayed themselves and their very nature, to pride.

 

This leads me to believe that Elvhen immortality being lost  was not caused by human contact, but rather because of their Gods' imprisonment. Most likely, an unforeseen consequence of Fen'Harel's actions. We can also deduce that, given the lack of their gods' presence and guidance (or rather influence and direction), the Elvhen people were driven into even heavier, civil unrest that eventually turned into all out war, probably and ironically, in the name of their respective gods, with the most powerful vying for control. This explains the fall of Arlathan. If the time-frame coincides with human contact, then the Elvhen belief that human's are to blame for their quickening (loss of immortality) would also make sense.

 

 

3 .Before The Veil and Great Dragons

 

Now that I've established my thoughts on Ancient Elvhenan and it's subsequent downfall I'd like to address another issue that immediately got my attention once I read it. This comes from the Dragon Age comics "The Silent Grove"  where Flemeth's daughter Yavana tells Alistair

 

"Your heart beats with the old blood, as well. Where do you think it comes from? It sings of a time when dragons ruled the skies. A time before the Veil, before the mysteries were forgotten. Can you hear it?"

 

This piece of information is game changing. It implies the veil was manufactured, or at least generated by specific events. Not many beings could have the power to do such a thing. It also implies that Dragons are more than just ancient, they are the product of another age, one where The Fade and Thedas were one realm. The whole concept of beings, the physics and metaphysics of the world is put into question. Were dragon's able to shape the world around them like dreamers do in The Fade? Were they able to create their own paradise or hell? What were the limitations and possibilities of such a realm?

 

I'm guessing the veil was put in place either to prevent the Elvhen Pantheon from being freed or in order to separate the Pantheon from the Elvhen people (maybe even to seperate the Pantheon into body and soul in Thedas and The Fade respectfully, but more on that later) either by Mythal and Fen'Harel or a specific event. This could be what led to human's "arriving" in Thedas and eventually encountering the Elvhen people. I'm pretty sure the lack of answers as to where human's come from has to do with this event. I also believe it is the reason Elves feel connected to The Fade more so than humans (much like they have an easier time of navigating through Eluvians). The eluvians function in the same way that The Fade does i.e. they are of a separate dimension, accessible only to those who have the keys (or talent, in the case of The Fade i.e. dreamers who enter consciously) to unlock safe passage. I wonder if the eluvians were crafted after the veil was created as a way to travel more efficiently. Given the the veil now separates Theda and The Fade, environments which could be shaped through emotion and thought no longer could be manipulated the way it used to be or with such ease, therefore magic would have been much less effective. Maybe the eluvians were crafted specifically to imprison the Elvhen Pantheon? Then, once their original purpose was forgotten (if it was known at all) they were used to travel about Thedas by the Elvhen people.   

 

The Great Dragons that Yavana mentions and wants to awaken also brings up questions about their connection to The Elvhen Pantheon and "The Forgotten Ones". This is where theorizing gets quite interesting. We know the Elvhen people practiced Uthenera ("Long Sleep" or "Endless Dream"),  the same type of practice that is said to have been given to the Neromenian's by the "Old Gods". Thalsian, first priest of Dumat, claims this knowledge was whipered to him by Dumat himself, from the "Realm of the God's. If the veil now separate's Thedas from The Fade, then we can assume the "realm of the God's refers to The Fade.

 

 

4. Old Gods & The Golden City

 

That being said, let's jump forward to the most prominent piece of human history in Thedas. The Golden city being breached by the Seven Magisters. It was said the "Old Gods", spoke to their respective High Priests and told them to breach the Golden City where they would claim Godhood for themselves. Now, it is believed that the Elvhen Pantheon was imprisoned by Fen'Harel in the Golden City. We also can assume "The Forgotten Ones" were also similarly imprisoned. Legends claim they were imprisoned in their own realm "The Void" or "The Abyss". It is also believed that "The Void" or "The Abyss" also resides in The Fade.

 

 

In the Comics, The Tevinter Magister Aurelius Titus states that "there are void places, gaps between dreams" when talking about "The Raw Fade" (places in the Fade that are not influenced by things around them such as spirits or dreamers etc.) There are verses in the Chant of Light that also speak of "The Void" as a place residing in all things, including The Fade, though I wouldn't lend much credence to it given its specific context (the absence of the Maker). This leads to my next theories. We know there were Nine Elvhen gods, Two of which are accounted for i.e. are not imprisoned in "The Eternal City" (Fen'Harel and Mythal). We also know their are seven (possibly eight, more on that later) "Old Gods".

 

If the "Old Gods" beckoned and manipulated  the Seven magisters to invade and "claim" the Golden City for their own by whispering to them the same way they did with Thelsian (first priest of Dumat) and the Neromenian's in order to give them the capacity to do so (enabling dreamer's to first explore The Fade so they could eventually reach it physically, as it was probably once possible to do so before the veil was created) then this could be explained in two different ways.  If the belief that the "Old Gods" whispered from the Golden City hold true and The Elvhen Pantheon were in fact imprisoned in the Golden City then the logical conclusion is not hard to construe.

 

 

5A.  Elvhen Panthen & The Forgotten Ones

 

Things are not always what they seem however, but let's start with the basics.  Now mathematically, this theory makes sense. Seven Elvhen gods imprisoned, Seven whispering "Old Gods". We have to go about it carefully with what we know and put everything into context. The only reason the Elvhen Pantheon would have to manipulate the Magisters (whispering deceitful promises of power by  taking their rightful place beside them) into entering the Golden City was if that would somehow lead to their freedom. If we Consider what Corypheus claims he found ("I found only chaos and corruption, dead whispers, for a thousand years I was confused, no more.") inside the Golden City and what entering it set in motion, then we have to stop and question the motive behind these actions and the final result.

 

What the Magisters found changed their very nature and sent them reeling back into Thedas. They brought something back with them, something that embodies disease, terror, spite and malevolence... Sound familiar? That's because these are aspects of "The Forgotten Ones", what they represent, yet we don't know much about them. We know they sought power and their own rivaled that of the Elvhen Pantheon. We know they resided in "The Void" in which they were able to corrupt Andruil. We don't know however, how many there were or exactly what they were. Given neither side vanquished the other, then I would assume they were evenly matched, either numerically or inherently (meaning they were antitheses of each other and so balanced each other out). This theory then brings into question something else.

 

If the blight came from Magisters physically entering the Golden City, then where was the Elvhen Pantheon when this took place? How did "The Forgotten Ones" infect the Magisters. What if "The Forgotten Ones" were the ones who whispered, what if they needed the Magisters to act as hosts in order to breach or "unlock" the Golden City, which is why they needed them to enter physically. Remember, the Golden City turned into The Blackened City right after the Magisters entered. If this was the case, then it again raises many questions. Were the Elvhen Pantheon and "The Forgotten Ones"  both imprisoned in the same place and somehow eventually became something more? Did "The Forgotten Ones" somehow find a loophole by using the Magisters to escape from their prison in "The Abyss" (which is located somewhere in The Fade) in order to enter the Golden city  and destroy the Pantheon once inside? (The Forgotten Ones could have possessed the Magisters once they entered The Fade physically to this end). Is the Elvhen Pantheon gone, have they been devoured by "The Forgotten Ones". If they were sleeping, then they'd have been easy prey (this is unlikely however,  given specific dialogue between Cole and Solas which strongly suggests the Elvhen Pantheon is still imprisoned, in a state of Uthenera, presumably in a realms reachable through eluvians).

 

If "The Forgotten Ones" act like parasites, could they have corrupted the Elvhen Pantheon's essence (much like they did Andruil in her legend). If this is the case then it would explain why the darkspawn need Great Dragon's in order to "awaken" an Archdemon. The more sensible reasoning however is that "The Forgotten Ones" could simply have been the ones imprisoned in the Golden City in the first place, their essence hitching a ride on the Magister's physical bodies and then spreading through the taint which in turn created the first blight. Instead of usurping the Elvhen gods' essence, they could simply take over the Elvhen gods' bodies i.e. The Great Dragon's sleeping (which also fits well within the boundaries of my theory, in fact that makes the most sense given what we know).

 

 

5B. Imprisonment: Location & status; Creation of the Veil

 

This then becomes my next theory. We know there were seven Great Dragon's (Old Gods) imprisoned and "dreaming" in the deep roads (so too are the Elvhen gods described to be in a deep slumber). We know Corypheus claims he heard "Dead" whispers in The Golden City but only saw chaos and corruption. The Fade and Thedas, separated by the veil. Spirit separated from the physical... Uthenera. What if the veil was created specifically to keep body and spirit separate. What if those great dragon's are the physical representation of the Elvhen Pantheon. What if their spirits were locked away in The Fade, in the Golden City perhaps, or more likely with the use of eluvians somewhere else. Again, more questions.  The Great Dragons could also have been aspects of the Elvhen Pantheon, physical representations that they created either to serve them or to use as vessels the way spirits do when they possess the living.

 

If The Elvhen pantheons' spirits were split from their Great Dragon bodies, it could also explain why the dragons are now savage and unable to speak "intelligibly". If my theory is right and "The Forgotten Ones" are the ones that whispered to the Magisters and are the ones who usurp the Old God bodies, then it would make sense that only the Darkspawn and Wardens hear the Archdemon communicate through the taint. The only thing that has me perplexed is the dark ritual. If Kieran has an Old God soul, what then, does that entail? FleMythal absorbs it into herself, but when she takes it out of Kieran, clearly it is immaterial, energy. This is the one flaw in my theory that is gnawing at me. Maybe awakening an Old God breaks Uthenera (like I speculated above, which could be a way to keep the Elvhen Pantheon in The Fade) and the soul is "awakened" and therefore restored. That however, would be quite a sloppy way to have imprisoned such powerful beings. I doubt Fen'Harel went through the trouble of creating the veil with Mythal if it would have been so easy... Anyways, moving forward.

 

If your Inquisitor is Elvhen, Kieran also goes on to say that he doesn't know why the Inquisitor's people "want to look like that" and that their blood is "very old". This could be a reference to The Old Gods as well, or at the very least a hint that the Elvhen people could shapeshift at one point (perhaps in a time before the veil), the same way Flemythal and Morrigan (if you let her drink from the well of souls) did. It could also indicate an origin relating to spirits, who can also take the form of different things, based on desires of mortals as seen with the Avvar people. The fact that dragons are no more than beasts rule by instinct is what makes me most suspicious. perhaps spirits are what gave them reason i.e. consciousness. When the veil was created, this was no longer possible as the spirit realm was separated from the "physical" realm.

 

 

If dragons ruled the skies before the veil, I wonder, would they then represent the Elvhen people. Let me elaborate. If the Elvhen people were dragons, then High Dragons maybe would represent the Elvhen High priests for example. I make this comparison because of the following quote (which ironically comes from an unlikely source).

 

The Tome of Koslun, the sacred Qunari scripture explicitly says that "the Old Gods were like unto dragons, as the first human kings were like unto ordinary men".

 

So The Elvhen Pantheon=Old Gods i.e. Great Dragons, High Dragons=Elvhen High Priests, Dragons=Elvhen People... just an interesting theory.

 

 

This next  part of my theory is the hardest to determine precisely. Given Yavana's statement, I wonder when the veil was created and whether or not it had to do with the Elvhen Pantheon (though the basis of my second theory is reliant on the fact that it was indeed created to imprison and protect the Elvhen Pantheon, presumably by Fen'Harel and Mythal. If so, then they probably needed their Elvhen Orb Foci to manage such a feat, including all of the other gods' respective Foci).

 

It also has me wonder about whether the fact that the Great Dragon's are dreaming is what keeps their spirit (or consciousness) in the fade (much like Uthenera) or wherever they're spirits are imprisoned. This then also makes me wonder why Yavana specifically needed a descendant from Meric's bloodline, or rather Calenhad's bloodline to awaken the last of the Great Dragons. Calenhad, who somehow vanished without being heard of again (I'm guessing something happened to him that either involved Dragons or Mythal). Yavanna said the blood "called out" to the "Queen of Dragons" and awoke her. Could this have been in reference to Mythal, or more accurately the physical representation of Mythal as I mentioned above.
 

 

5C. The Eighth Old God

 

This is a good segue to talk about the eighth "Old God" I referred to earlier. If you've read the Draconis constellation Codex, then you know what I'm talking about. It speculates that the origin of this constellation could be based upon "an unknown eighth Old God that was stricken from historical record." Given there were Nine Elvhen gods (Eight if you don't count Fen'Harel) and we know of seven Old God's, I have to ask, who would stand to be stricken from historical record. What could cause Tevinter to completely disregard an Old God at the time. A great Betrayal perhaps or Helping a Great Betrayer? I believe this Eighth Old God to be Mythal or Fen'harel. I think it is Mythal more so than Fen'Harel however, as he is known as the Dread Wolf, though if the ELvhen gods were Great Dragons, then this could still be explained (As Fen'Harel might have preferred to shapeshift into a wolf) If that is the case then guess what, that leaves one more Great Dragon. What was that?  The Queen of Dragons you ask? Why yes, it could allude to Mythal, the All-Mother, I mean, after all, it was the daughter of Flemythal who was looking after her, was it not? So to recap, if Fen'Harel is the Eighth Old God and he shapeshifts into a Dragon and Mythal is The Great Dragon Queen (which equates to nine Great Dragons in all). If Fen'Harel was something different (as he was said to walk between the Elvhen Pantheon and The Forgotten Ones), that means the Eighth Old God was Mythal and that the Great Dragon Queen is that Eighth Old God. I think this is the likely answer rather than Fen'Harel being the Eighth Old God.

 

 

 

6A. SolaFen (How he came to be)

 

This leads me to my next topic... SolaFen. First of all, let me start by explaining what I think of his origins. I believe Solas to be a willing vessel, much like Flemeth. I also believe the stories he's told us (the inquisitor) and his humble origins are the truth, just not the whole truth.
 

Lelianna: "But he did give the name of the village where he grew up, noting that it was small, unlikely to appear on any map."

 

Lelianna: "They recently located the village... or what remains of it. It is a ruin, as it has been for centuries, its name preserved only in degraded form in Ancient Tevinter mysteries"

I believe Solas (or whatever his name was at the time) encountered Fen'Harel during his time exploring The Fade. He must have been in agreement with Fen'Harel and gave his body willingly. Given the conversation between SolaFen and FleMythal (When SolaFen explains that he didn't have enough power to unlock the Elvhen orb given his long slumber and recent awakening), I'm guessing the village he said he was born in was simply misdirection and that Solas is not in fact centuries old.  I also say this because Mythal's vessel (Flemeth) is growing quite old physically and has already lived centuries. She needs willing replacements in order to sustain herself. If centuries mean nothing to Fen'Harel and Mythal however, than a long slumber might be millenia and being awake for a few centuries might be a recent awakening. I might be stretching it, but even if that was the case then SolaFen should also look as old as FleMythal does. Since that's not the case, I'll assume Solas was lying about his birth place and he bonded with Fen'Harel recently. If I had to guess, I'd argue that the location was in fact a place he visited while in the Fade, which is probably where he found it's name.
 

 

6B. Fen'Harel's Motivations

 

Now that I've established my thoughts on his origin, I'll have to dig into his motivations. If SolaFen blames himself for the downfall of Arlathan and seeks to reclaim what was lost, than I have a few questions about how he intends to do that. We know he was seeking Corypheus' power in order to unlock the "true power" of the Elvhen Orb. Now we know Corypheus intended to use it to Enter the "Blackened City" but that does not mean this was SolaFen's goal as well.  All we know is the orb serves as a Foci and that each of the Elvhen Pantheon held one to their name. This also begs the question of whether or not the rest of the Elvhen Pantheon is still alive or imprisoned. Restoring what was lost does not necessarily mean freeing the Elvhen Pantheon, it could simply mean restoring the Elvhen race to power. We know SolaFen does not favor what the past was but rather what he wanted it to be. Bringing back his brethren could mean history repeating itself. He also declares his allegiance to the Elvhen people rather than to his brethren, claiming that this is the reason he cannot face punishment yet. Also conversations between SolaFen and Cole seem to indicate what the Elvhen Pantheon was or has become.

 

Cole: "He hurts, an old pain from before when everything sang the same" (before the veil?)

 

Cole: "You're real, and it means everyone could be real. It changes everything. But it can't."

 

(I think this is a reference to him being physically present after the veil was created, as in bonded with Solas like FleMythal. With this knowledge, he could help his brethren do the same, however, if he does, then things will become what they were and Fen'Harel can't allow that, despite the love he holds for his kin. This potentially adds weight to my theory about the spirit/physical separation of the Pantheon)

 

Cole: They sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting and to wake them... (Gasp) where did it go?

 

Solas: I apologize, Cole. That is not a pain you can heal.

 

(Cole refers to the Elvhen gods, masking or masked from their true aspects in an eluvian, sleeping and suffering. When he says where did it go, he refers to Solas' pain which Solas in turn confirms by stating that Cole cannot heal it. This is quite interesting. It would seem that the Elvhen god's might not be imprisoned in the Golden city, as I suspect, but rather in a realm reached only through an eluvian).

In my inquisition playthroughs, Flemeth always has the Old God Urthemiel's soul. I believe SolaFen absorbs Mythal's essence as well as The Old God soul in order to have enough power to activate another Elvhen orb, presumably hers, if it was not destroyed.
 

 

6C. SolaFen & FleMythal End Scene

 

I have a few questions about that scene however. Is Mythal truly dead? (her essence at least) If so then she sacrificed herself in order to power SolaFen. This tells me a couple of things. She trusts him wholly, she believes he is the one that needs to restore their people and to that end, she truly is The Great portector and the All-Mother, sacrificing herself in order to help save her people. I also wonder whether they were lovers once or whether their bond is more akin to brother and sister. Whatever the case, I believe she helped him rebel against the rest of the Pantheon. It also has me wonder who "killed her". Was it truly another member from the Elvhen Pantheon or could it have been "The Forgotten Ones" or even better, an alliance and bid for power from both. Lastly, does the fact that he absorbs her essence mean that the Geas from The Well of Sorrows was transferred to him or did it die with FleMythal. If Fen'Harel does appropriate the Geas, could that effect future playthroughs in inquisition DLC or future sequels?
 

 

7. Lyrium & Dwarves

Another awesome piece of lore, is something quite common, something called Lyrium. You know the thing that sings a song, almost like a calling... So we learn that Lyrium is alive, or at least is speculated to be, given it can be infected by the blight. I always thought lyrium was a product of The Fade made manifest, its physical manifestation, if you will. When Yavanna stated a time before the veil it had me think that lyrium was a product of what the world used to be. A fossil left over from an age unknown. Now that we know it's alive, it complicates things even further. The effect it has on living beings in its raw form , specifically mages (who have a strong connection to the fade) is similar to that of The Fade itself (in terms of contact with the physical realm). It is known that traveling physically to The Fade (without the Mark the Inquisitor sports) is lethal. The same way Lyrium is almost lethal on contact to beings that haven't a built up a natural resistance (such as Dwarves), specifically to mages.

It also begs the question, have Dwarves been physiologically altered by their proximity to Lyrium in more than just one way? In other words, is the fact that they have no magical affinity due to this phenomenon. In the Primeval Thaig from Dragon Age 2, Varric and Hawke discover "architecture that is very different from other thaigs and dwarf constructions. This thaig is the only known one left entirely untouched by darkspawn. It possesses great statues and temples, and also things created by magic. Both of these things are very strange, since the Dwarves worship no gods and are incapable of magic."

 This leads me to believe Ancient Dwarven culture and possibly their physiology was affected by the introduction of the veil somehow and that they once had the ability to wield magic. The obvious explanation is their exposure to lyrium, but it might be more complex, especially given they also once venerated gods, what those gods were however, is up for debate. Did Dwarves once live on the surface, were the gods they worshiped Great Dragons or is it something different entirely? The profane definitely hold a clue as to what that is, and it leads me to believe that those gods are something other than Great Dragons.

 Edit after The Descent: A bunch of awesome discoveries. Titans. Lyrium is Titan's blood. Holy crap. If Dragons ruled the sky before the veil, then Titans ruled the earth. This answers my questions about the Primeval thaig. Dwarves worshipped the Titans and the Titans in turn gave them access to magic, which explains everything about that ancient thaig. For some reason they stopped worshiping Titans and this happened before the blights. I still believe it had something to do with the creation of the veil (it is also revealed that the Titan's were disturbed by the breach, which reinforces my belief that the veil is what changed things between the Dwarves and the Titans).

 We also learn that Titan blood is different from mined Lyrium. The song emitted from lyrium originates from the Titans. It is said to be different from the Calling of The Old Gods. It is also revealed that Darkspawn avoid the Titans and where they reside. I believe the Titans' song, the song that emanates from their blood, which must be much more potent than the song from mined lyrium (the mined lyrium I'm guessing is more akin to an echo) is what drives them back. I'm guessing that Titans (and Titan blood) can't be infected by the taint the way mined Lyrium can be. If Titan blood could be infected like Red Lyrium, then I don't think darkspawn would be afraid to venture in Titan territory. In this location we also discover another race called the Sha-Brytol that not only seem to be the protectors of the Titans but also an offshoot of the Dwarven race or more likely what the Dwarves used to be before their separation. They are said to be pure. This seems to be referencing their connection with the Titans, meaning that they are interconnected somehow (maybe on a symbiotic level) through Titan blood.
 

 It also explains the current Dwarven physiology and their inherent resistance to lyrium. It is said that this resistance is only skin deep however, and that exposure to the eyes or through open wounds has the same effect on them as it does other races (which means because they don't have Titan blood flowing through their veins then the inner workings of their bodies are not protected from lyrium anymore, hence the resistance only being skin deep). Again, this is very interesting. It would explain why surface Dwarves lose their resistance to lyrium over time. At first I thought it would be explained scientifically i.e. evolution and adaptation. However if mined lyrium is less potent Titan's blood and Dwarves used to have Titan blood flowing through them and lived in a type of Symbiotic relationship with the Titans, then moving further away from the earth would explain them losing even the skin deep resistance that Dwarves living underground have retained since their split from the Titans and the Sha-Brytol.

 Valta, a temporary companion and one of the main characters in The Decent writes a journal after the events that transpired in the deep roads. In it she details that upon being struck down she "fell into a warm light's embrace", as if returning to the Stone. Now the blood of the titan flows through her, and its song tells of the times before titans fell and "the dwarven race broke in two". She doesn't sleep any more. Valta feels empowered by the gift of shaping stone and notices that the Sha-Brytol love and fear her, lost and misguided as they are. They even attempted to make an offering of their armor to her, but she recalled Renn and rejected the gift. This seems to reinforce my hypothesis about the connection between the Sha-Brythol and the Titans. It's also noted that since Valta has been connected to the Titan, her notion of time is becoming harder and harder to discern. She can't tell the difference between a moment an a day's worth of time. I think her connection is getting stronger and she's starting to experience things the way Titans do, such as the perception of time. She also finds a chamber.


"A domed, circular courtyard held a pool of the Titan's blood at its center. Empty suits of armor sat neatly in a circle around the pool. Is this where Sha-Brytol come to be entombed in their metal skins? What smith makes this armor, and where does it come from? My lost kin are hiding something. They have a Thaig somewhere. I have no interest in finding that citadel of the Sha-Brytol, but someone might."


This is an obvious hint at future games letting us do just that. It also peaks my interest in terms of where the Thaig is possibly situated, Perhaps close to Tevinter... Kal Sharok anyone? (I'll get into that later)


Back to my theory about the effect that the veil had on Titans. I think that it might have been what made them sleep, which would explain why the Titan was disturbed by the breach. If the Titan's slowly started "falling asleep", It might also stand to reason that the Sha Brytol seem confused because they were still connected to the Titans when the veil was created and decided not to leave them. Without the Titans"awake" to guide them, the Sha Brytol are without purpose, still connected but left without direction (only their need to protect the Titans is left, like a type of survival instinct triggered by the Titans, like antibodies. Given the symbiotic relationship it becomes in both their interests to protect each other). This could also explain why Valta isn't affected like the Sha Brytol once she is part of the Titans. Since she's part of the Dwarves who developed individuality, then I'm guessing being connected to the Titans while they're sleeping gives her the ability to retain her consciousness without being confused like the Sha-Brytol. It would also explain the quote above
 

"Valta feels empowered by the gift of shaping stone and notices that the Sha-Brytol love and fear her, lost and misguided as they are. They even attempted to make an offering of their armor to her, but she recalled Renn and rejected the gift."
 

I think the Sha-Brytol love and fear her because they recognize her individuality, they can feel it because she's connected to the Titans now, as they are. Since the Titans are asleep, I believe her mind is being heard by the Sha-Brytol. This would garner love because they finally are connected to someone who can think for themselves (and possibly for them as well) but they also fear her because it's not something their used too (individuality) as being guided by the Titan must have been vastly different. If my theory is correct I'm curious to know what effect that would have on them, if any at all.
 

It's also noted that Titan's were the "first" children of the stone and they in turn, consider Dwarves their children. This would imply that Dwarves were either a product of the Titans or simply the second creations of the Stone, the "grandchildren" really.
 

Now what Dagna talked about makes perfect sense (the conversations we have after The Arcanist and The Fade War Table Operation).

 

Dagna : (...) I've learned something. I think. I don't know.

Dagna : I got a scraping that was cleaned off you. And it's weird. And the other rift bits, they're weird. It's just... weird.

Dagna : Lyrium and the fade, linked. But Dwarves and tranquil, not linked. But they work lyrium, so they are. Somehow? (working the stone)

 (An Old Elven Writing mentions "pillars of the earth" which I'm guessing are the Titans and "their workers" which were probably the Dwarves of that age)

Dagna : There's something there. I was face-deep in a rune, and for a moment... I was tall. Really tall.

Dagna : And I thought -- I thought all the thoughts. (nervous laugh)

Inquisitor : You felt taller ? How much taller ? (She felt the connection with the Titans)

Dagna : Like, mountain-tall. Or I was the mountain. But I was moving. I felt dizzy. (She was the Titan, or rather seeing through it's "eyes" metaphorically speaking of course)

Dagna : You know what I remembered ? Watching a shaperate carve the wall of memory. Except... big. Isn't that weird ? Maybe there were fumes.

 (This makes me wonder why the Shaperate erased information on the Titans. Clearly it was a practice that was developed while the Dwarves were with the Titans. My guess is that the Dwarves who split from the Titans didn't want to go back because they enjoyed their individuality. In order to prevent that from happening or giving future Dwarves the option of going back, they struck the Titans from their records, eliminating that possibility altogether).
 

Inquisitor : What do you mean when you say "thought all the thoughts"?

Dagna : I don't know ? As if, for a moment, I was around all my people. And my thought was all of theirs ? No, no, my thought was all of our thoughts. Like parts. Ugh, words are mush.

 

(Again, that strengthens my belief that the Dwarves and the Titans used to hold a symbiotic relationship through Titan blood and the Titan song, probably on an empathic level).

Dagna : Maybe that's what the Stone feels like. Or we think it feels like. If we think it feels ? Creepy. (Same as above)

Inquisitor : So tranquil and dwarves are linked to lyrium, but also not linked ?

Dagna : Like the lyrium needs to flow, but if you're part of it, it takes you with it. so you can't be part of it. That makes me sad. I'm not sure why. It seems like we should be part of it. Whatever "it" is.
 

(This again seems to reference Titan blood, needs to flow, circulate i.e. if your part of it, it takes you with it, so you can't be part of it. Could she be referring to individuality? Again this would imply either a hive mind or symbiotic relationship of sorts. This also might explain why the Dwarves decided to split off from the Titans. Maybe it was more than just because of the veil. Maybe the veil cutting off The Fade is what "woke" the Dwarves up, or maybe the Titans had less control. If The Fade functions like a mirror for your will and emotions then shaping things becomes fluid, easy. If that is how the Stone shaped the Titans and how the Titans shaped Dwarves, perhaps it could explain the Titans' waning powers once the veil was introduced and contact with The Fade was impossible. I'm guessing because of this, Titans can no longer create other Dwarves the way they could before.)
 

Dagna : Or maybe we're the ones who make it happen ? Whatever "it" is?
 

(This might be the same thing as accepting to be a vessel for Elvhen gods, like Flemeth with Mythal. Maybe the Dwarves have to embrace the song and TItans for them to be joined again. I'm guessing that is what happened to Valta when she "fell into a warm light's embrace", as if returning to the Stone.)

Dagna : You know what's frustrating ? Answers that aren't answers. Bleah.

Dagna : I tried to make it happen again, but it wouldn't. Then I had a headache. And cocoa. And a lie-down.

 

 

8. Felessan

 

I'd also like to mention Felassan and his last moments. This character knew much, the same way SolaFen knows much. He speaks of the ancient past as if he has lived it and he knows things about the Elvhen culture long lost. You could argue that he learnt these things the way Solas did, from The Fade, though not many are gifted enough to do so consciously, let alone survive there untouched and unharmed.

 

"Alone, Felassan enters the somniari trance to speak with a mysterious entity in the Fade. With a sense of prescient doom, he informs the entity that he did not get the passphrase from Briala, and suggests that she be given a chance to try using the eluvians. He remarks that "they" are stronger than the being thinks and attempts to tell the entity that Briala reminds him of something, or someone, else, but is killed before he can do so. His last thoughts are of Briala, alone and in search of her people."

 

Who was this mysterious being he was speaking to and who are the enigmatic "they" he spoke of. Could the mysterious being be one of "The Forgotten Ones"? Was the "They" Felassan was referring to the Elvhen Pantheon, was he in fact Fen'Harel, before SolaFen was born or a priest of Fen'Harel like Abelas was to Mythal? Was the mysterious being simply Corypheus and the "They" another faction of ancient Elvhen "guardians" like those seen in the temple of Mythal, of which Felassan was also part of? The only known entities who can kill from within The Fade are powerful Dreamers and Demons (though Demons usually possess Mages rather than kill them). Not many could accomplish such a feat, especially when talking about someone as powerful as Felassan. Clearly Felassan knew he was a dead man and could not defeat who ever had enlisted or enslaved him, maybe through a Geas, therefore insuring his compliance? This would then reinforce the notion of hum being a high priest and that whoever was talking to him was an Elvhen god (somehow free?) or perhaps a "Forgotten One" (also somehow free?). So many questions!
 

 

9. Qunari

 

Lastly, I wanted to touch on the Qunari, apart from looking really awesome, they also have very interesting roots and origins to explore. What Iron Bull speculated about the Qunari resembling dragons is quite interesting. He thinks the fact that they hold dragons as "sacred", apart from them being physically similar (horns mass etc.), might be due to the fact that the Tamassaran's somehow mixed dragon blood within their race, the same way Qunari are carefully bred for specific roles, in order to make them more formidable (physically). This is also speculated to be the cause of their violent and savage nature (the same way Koslun perceived the Kossith to be),  left without the Qun to "guide" them. This also seems to be the way they perceive Dragon's, ironically.

 

As Iron Bull sees it "Dragons are the embodiment of raw power. But it's all uncontrolled, savage... So they need to be destroyed. Taming the wild. Order out of chaos. Have another drink." He also goes on to say " But something in that Dragon we killed... Spoke to me."

 

The comments stated to a Qunari (Vashoth) inquisitor by Corypheus during their final confrontation also implies the race isn't pure.
Corypheus: "Your blood is engorged with decay. You race isn't a race, it is a mistake."

 

Kieran also will declare (if your Inquisitor is Qunari or rather "Vashoth") that their blood "doesn't belong" to the Inquisitor's people and express his sorrow at what happened to the people.

 

The sorrow at what happened to the people comment, I'm guessing, has to do with what went down between the Kossith and the Qunari while his comment about their blood "not belonging" further reinforces the Dragon blood theory.

 

Whether this is something known to ancient Tevinter Magisters or whether it's simply the product of lingering racism based on Corypheus' arrogance and pride is unclear. Given the phrasing however, I would guess that it is in fact referring to something more tangible than simple slurs. It would make sense from a storytelling perspective at the very least. This prospect peaks my interest quite a bit. I'd love to see the ramifications of such a development and practical applications from the narrative perspective. It also brings into question the Kossith. Were they the ones that experimented on the Qunari, rather than the Tamassaran?

 

Bull states that the Qunari "Came to Thedas because the Kossith were... I don't know, we had to leave. The stories aren't clear. But I don't expect they look much like us... Whatever they are."  (However in the official timeline, it is specifically stated that "A Kossith colony of *horned* humanoids settles in the Korcari Wilds in -410 ancient and is later obliterated by darkspawn")

 

The fact that the Qun has no mention of the Kossith or what they embodied or even why they left for Thedas makes Koslun's journey seem... more involved than just searching for a new way of life, which was what birthed the philosophy that became the Qun. The fact that the Kossith came to Thedas in ancient times and were attacked by The Blight makes me wonder if the encounter is what changed them (fundamentally and culturally, not physically) once they (if any survivors) returned with word of their traumatic experiences in Thedas involving darkspawn. This could be the basis of the fracture, between the Kossith and the Qunari (who returned to Thedas suspiciously armed and ready for conquest, with many dreadnaught's to boot) many centuries (in preperation?)  later. I hope this is also something the Dragon Age creative team fleshes out and builds upon. It could make for many interesting possibilities.

 

So that's it for now. I hope it was made in a way that was easy to navigate and clear enough for anyone to understand easily. I hope people discuss and comment so I can have feedback and converse with people about more theories and information they have. Thanks for reading!


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#2
Master Warder Z_

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I would guess that it is in fact referring to something more tangible than simple slurs. 

 

Actually he racially or culturally insults every PC in the final battle. Calling Human PC's that aren't mages a commoner or Soporati.

 

He actually broke out a short joke for a dwarf.

 

So it really could have been him just poking at your race with no deeper meaning behind it. If you want something odd about Qunari though, talk to the freaky half human abomination that is Kieran, he's full of all sorts of oddball freak show statements.



#3
FrankWisdom

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Actually he racially or culturally insults every PC in the final battle. Calling Human PC's that aren't mages a commoner or Soporati.

 

He actually broke out a short joke for a dwarf.

 

So it really could have been him just poking at your race with no deeper meaning behind it. If you want something odd about Qunari though, talk to the freaky half human abomination that is Kieran, he's full of all sorts of oddball freak show statements.

 

Yeah I've played with a human mage and an Elvhen Inquisitor. I'm playing devils advocate here, considering all possibilities. What convinces me that more is implied in Corypheus' slurs is all the other information I've gathered that's in the same vein i.e. (their blood is not pure). I've added the Kieran quotes and yes, I agree, he adds great details (although in a very cryptic manner) about ancient mysteries. I didn't think of adding them in, so thanks for reminding me to do so :)



#4
Reznore57

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                                                                      1. Ancient Elvhen culture

 


Given the religious significance ascribed to them by the Dalish, if they actually held such humble beginnings, one would think SolaFen might sport them, or some ancient incarnation, that honored the past, seeing as he wants to restore what was lost. You could argue that this would be counterproductive to hiding his true nature or even that Fen'Harel's host (Solas) was not of the Dalish when they bonded (more on that later), though again, one could argue that once said bonding was achieved, SolaFen could have applied them afterwards. (...)I feel differently now each time I look at my Dalish Inquisitor, proudly sporting his Blue tinted complex Mythal facial Tramp Stamp... facepalm.

 

Thing is being a God , Fen'Harel would have been in a slave master position , so no reason to have the markings.And him being anti slavery he probably despise the practise with a burning passion and probably wanted valaslin to be forever forgotten .

He probably facepalm the first time he saw some Dalish too.

 

                                                                2. Downfall of The Elvhen Pantheon and their peoples

 

   Fen'Harel, dissatisfied with the treatment and quality of life that the lower class Elvhen people were given, decided to rebel against his brothers, looking to right their wrongs, single-handedly, thinking perhaps, that their followers could do better without them. I'm guessing he also figured that if his brethren were to be absent, so to, would the "Forgotten Ones" have to be dealt with. An exert from the Codex entry: Geldauran's claim not only reinforces the state of affairs noted in Elvhenan, but also at "The Forgotten Ones" danger. It also gives insight into what god's actually were.

 

I doubt he was all by himself , I think the Forgotten Ones were also rebels.

Solas was the one  able to inflitrate the main Pantheon.Perhaps at first he thought he could enact change using diplomacy and court intrigue.

At the very least , he was close to Mythal , (probably the most beloved Goddess and the one in charge) but from what I can tell those two had different ideology.

She was pro "We are Gods" (but it probably didn't went overboard ,she tells Merrill in DA2 to not bow without reason.I think "The People bow down too quickly") , Fen Harel wasn't in the Godhood propaganda ...but he was also probably malleable in his views.

(cf At first at Haven he tells you to not dismiss the whole "Herald of Andraste"..."posturing is necessary." later when you have enough power if you keep on with the Herald stuff he doesn't like it)

 

On the other hand , you have looneys like Falon'din who was killing people because he felt they didn't worship him enough...

Andruil who was killing elves for sports.

Those two were causing problems , and they were close to Dirthamen and Ghilan'nain.

Solas doesn't like them (cf temple of Mythal ) Mythal was busy keeping them in check , showing who's boss.

Elgar'nan seems to have been a beast on Mythal 's leash .

So chances are the Pantheon was already falling apart from inner conflict.

 

Then someone murdered Mythal , the one who was probably keeping the balance.

Chances are all hell broke loose after that.

 

Fen'Harel probably decided the Creators needed to be killed ASAP , so he rallied the Forgotten Ones.

I imagine both group did stupid things to assure victory , probably messing big time with the Blight.

For reasons unknown it seems the Creators (who were only 7 left at this point ) weren't killed , at least the story says they were tricked and trapped.

Lore says the Forgotten ones were many...they also vanished.

 

He also mentions Fen'Harel was not to blame for Mythal's "murder" indicating he had the best of intentions when "betraying" his brothers and sisters and wanted no harm to come to them. 

 

I don't think this is the case.Fen'Harel is fond of Mythal...he doesn't show the same feeling towards the rest of the Pantheon.

I assume she was killed by a Creator , they were probably tired of her being the boss .

I think Solas would probably kill Andruil and Falon'din without a second thought , those were bloodthirsty tyrants.



#5
FrankWisdom

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                                                                      1. Ancient Elvhen culture

 

 

 

Thing is being a God , Fen'Harel would have been in a slave master position , so no reason to have the markings.And him being anti slavery he probably despise the practise with a burning passion and probably wanted valaslin to be forever forgotten .

He probably facepalm the first time he saw some Dalish too.                                                        

 

"Fen'Harel would have been in a slave master position" You mean. master/slave relationship.

 

All we know is "he was kin" to the Pantheon and "The Forgotten Ones" saw him as one of their own because of his "cunning ways". That aside,  my comments however were more a commentary on Dalish beliefs compared to how things actually were as well as Solas' origins, rather than about Fen'Harel. I was trying to demonstrate how the revelation can be taken at face value (pun intended), meaning that what SolaFen said was actually the truth and what the Dalish believed was false given the Fen'Harel did not add markings on his "host" once he was "possessed". as for the

 

"This is great exposition for Solas as a character, who effectively lacks such marking's"

 

I was speaking of the "Solas" before he met Fen'Harel. I wrote that before I saw the romance cutscene where SolaFen shows he can actually remove such markings though, so I'll have to update that part. Thanks for making me aware of it.

 

 

                                                                      1. Ancient Elvhen culture

 

 

 

                                                                2. Downfall of The Elvhen Pantheon and their peoples

 

 

 

 

I doubt he was all by himself , I think the Forgotten Ones were also rebels.

Solas was the one  able to inflitrate the main Pantheon.Perhaps at first he thought he could enact change using diplomacy and court intrigue.

At the very least , he was close to Mythal , (probably the most beloved Goddess and the one in charge) but from what I can tell those two had different ideology.

She was pro "We are Gods" (but it probably didn't went overboard ,she tells Merrill in DA2 to not bow without reason.I think "The People bow down too quickly") , Fen Harel wasn't in the Godhood propaganda ...but he was also probably malleable in his views.

(cf At first at Haven he tells you to not dismiss the whole "Herald of Andraste"..."posturing is necessary." later when you have enough power if you keep on with the Herald stuff he doesn't like it)

 

On the other hand , you have looneys like Falon'din who was killing people because he felt they didn't worship him enough...

Andruil who was killing elves for sports.

Those two were causing problems , and they were close to Dirthamen and Ghilan'nain.

Solas doesn't like them (cf temple of Mythal ) Mythal was busy keeping them in check , showing who's boss.

Elgar'nan seems to have been a beast on Mythal 's leash .

So chances are the Pantheon was already falling apart from inner conflict.

 

Then someone murdered Mythal , the one who was probably keeping the balance.

Chances are all hell broke loose after that.

 

Fen'Harel probably decided the Creators needed to be killed ASAP , so he rallied the Forgotten Ones.

I imagine both group did stupid things to assure victory , probably messing big time with the Blight.

For reasons unknown it seems the Creators (who were only 7 left at this point ) weren't killed , at least the story says they were tricked and trapped.

Lore says the Forgotten ones were many...they also vanished.

 

 

When I say single-handedly, I mean he was "supposedly" able to manipulate both sides into imprisonment. I'll rework this though, it's in need of a major re-haul. He most likely had help from Mythal, who probably was "killed" because of it. I don't think infiltrate is the right word, he was considered the Pantheon's kin. 

 

"The Creators looked after the People. The Forgotten Ones preyed upon us. And one god who was neither. Fen'Harel, the Dread Wolf. He was kin to the Creators, and in the old days, often helped them in their endless war against the Forgotten Ones. We barely even remember all their names, let alone who struck the first blow, who was wrong"..

 

Also "his supposed betrayal of both clans of gods by sealing them away in their respective realms, never again to interact with the mortal world, is sometimes used to explain why the elven gods--particularly the benevolent Creators--did not intervene to prevent the fall of Arlathan."

 

 

 Again we don't know exactly how he managed to imprison them. He seems to have started a revolution, whether he was a figurehead or played from the shadows is the real question, though some legends claim he led the rebellion as a trickster warrior with bow and arrow. The most important detail to understand is whether he imprisoned them before he started the revolution as suggested in the above quote, as that would change our understanding of the whole conflict.

 

 

                                                               

I don't think this is the case.Fen'Harel is fond of Mythal...he doesn't show the same feeling towards the rest of the Pantheon.

I assume she was killed by a Creator , they were probably tired of her being the boss .

I think Solas would probably kill Andruil and Falon'din without a second thought , those were bloodthirsty tyrants.

 

Yes, he is fond of Mythal. She willingly gave up her essence to empower him, which shows they have a very trusting relationship. Whether she was an old flame or the relationship was fraternal remains to be seen, what is clear is that they have great respect for each other and want the same things for their people.

 

As for the Elvhen Pantheon:

 

"Some evidence suggests the Betrayal was a much more complicated situation than originally believed. Cryptic conversations between Cole and Solas do not deny that Fen'Harel sealed away the other gods. However, they seem to imply that the Dread Wolf may have felt he had no choice in doing so, that in fact it was a decision made with great regret in order to save them and the elven people from internal war and civil strife, and that he expected the future to be better for the elves and was shocked to find it otherwise".

 

See that's why I disagree, if you look further down in the 6B. Fen'Harel's Motivations section I use Cole and Solas dialogue to explain my reasoning. Check it out and then come back to me. I think their imprisonment was done begrudgingly and out of necessity, because he thought it would be best for The Elvhen people, but he underestimated the influence the Elvhen Pantheon had upon them and the far-reaching consequences their pride had wrought ;)


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#6
Reznore57

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"Fen'Harel would have been in a slave master position" You mean. master/slave relationship.

 

I meant being part of the pantheon , he could have own slaves , or other people would mark their slaves  face in his honor.But there's no reason for him to have vallaslin.

 

I was speaking of the "Solas" before he met Fen'Harel. I wrote that before I saw the romance cutscene where SolaFen shows he can actually remove such markings though, so I'll have to update that part 

 

I know there's some debate about Solas possessing someone , or not.

I'm on the Solas is Fen Harel , and that's it.

There's no talk of Fen'Harel getting killed , and an ancient elf could , in theory , stay in uthenera forever...if they aged  while they were doing it...well you'd end up like Xenon, a living mummy.

Abelas wouldn't have his own thread in the BSN right now.

 

  When I say single-handedly, I mean he was "supposedly" able to manipulate both sides into imprisonment. I'll rework this though, it's in need of a major re-haul. He most likely had help from Mythal, who probably was "killed" because of it. I don't think infiltrate is the right word, he was considered the Pantheon's kin.

 

Yeah I said "inflitrate" ...thing is I'm just scratching my head about Fen Harel and his place among the Pantheon.I think it's possible he was promoted to Godhood at one point like Ghilan'nain (my whole theory is Solas was the sinner who shapeshifted into some divine form causing scandal...)

But he could have been a God all along and had a change of hear after years and years of abuse around him.

I mean having a God of rebellion , who doesn't believe he is a God , doesn't like religious propaganda , doesn't like slavery ,like free thinking , doesn't like the Well of Sorrow effect...

I mean!

He's standing against the ideologies the Creators were promoting ...you'd think after 20 years or so  , someone would stab him so he doesn't start giving ideas to his followers.

 

Again we don't know exactly how he managed to imprison them. He seems to have started a revolution, whether he was a figurehead or played from the shadows is the real question, though some legends claim he led the rebellion as a trickster warrior with bow and arrow. The most important detail to understand is whether he imprisoned them before he started the revolution as suggested in the above quote, as that would change our understanding of the whole conflict. 

 

Well from some banter with Blackwall , it seems he was fighting during a war.

And yeah he probably started the revolution before he tricked them all , I mean after they were all gone ...no more leaders to rebel against.

 

   See I disagree, if you look further down in the 6B. Fen'Harel's Motivations section I use Cole and Solas dialogue to explain my reasoning

 

Oki.I'm just trying to take it one step at a time because you wrote a lot , and like I said before I'm not the best when it comes to keeping on track.

 

 

Cole: They sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting and to wake them... (Gasp) where did it go?

 

Solas: I apologize, Cole. That is not a pain you can heal.

 

(Cole refers to the Elvhen gods, masking or masked from their true aspects in an eluvian, sleeping and suffering. When he says where did it go, he refers to Solas' pain which Solas in turn confirms by stating that Cole cannot heal it. This is quite interesting. It would seem that the Elvhen god's might not be imprisoned in the Golden city, as I suspect, but rather in a realm reached only through an eluvian).

 

Yeah , we disagree.

I think he locked the Forgotten Ones behind an Eluvian , and he's sad about it.

You think it's the Creators.

 

So my point of view is...most of the Creators are a bunch of bloodthirsty tyrants , Godhood is great , slavery is fine ..."Hey people don't worship me enough I'm going to kill them" Falon'din.

Maybe some of them were fine , I mean Sylaise and what's his name June...

And Fen Harel did have some common ground with Mythal.

 

But I think he would root for the underdogs , the Forgotten Ones.

I know we don't know much about them.

But some of them didn't believe in the whole "Gods" stuff , they show sign of free thinking , they were rebels etc...They sound more like the Dread Wolf crew.

 

So I think they are the ones he had to trap behind a Eluvian for X reasons , and he may be sad because they were his true peers .Powerful freethinker elves who wanted to take a stand and change things.



#7
FrankWisdom

FrankWisdom
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I meant being part of the pantheon , he could have own slaves , or other people would mark their slaves  face in his honor.But there's no reason for him to have vallaslin.

 

Ok I misread that.

 

 


I know there's some debate about Solas possessing someone , or not.

I'm on the Solas is Fen Harel , and that's it.

There's no talk of Fen'Harel getting killed , and an ancient elf could , in theory , stay in uthenera forever...if they aged  while they were doing it...well you'd end up like Xenon, a living mummy.

Abelas wouldn't have his own thread in the BSN right now.

 

That could be the case, but then why didn't Abelas recognize Fen'Harel while they were speaking, If Fen'Harel was a figurehead during the rebellion. Clearly Abelas was around during the time of the Elvhen Pantheon given his statements about Mythal and her "murder". For that to be explained, then no matter what, the physical body (Solas) would've had to be altered somehow. Either Fen'Harel can shapeshift into another humanoid being (unseen so far) or he can create illusions of some kind. Then there's also the why and how Fen'Harel "woke up". Also, we don't really know what the Elvhen Pantheon really were, the same way we know nothing about "The Forgotten Ones" (though Geldauran's claim could imply they were of the Elvhen people). They could have been similar to spirits (Elvhen Pantheon) and demons (The Forgotten Ones) who become something similar to Cole. Anyways a lot of ifs in here, so I'll stick to SolaFen for the time being.

 

 

Yeah I said "inflitrate" ...thing is I'm just scratching my head about Fen Harel and his place among the Pantheon.I think it's possible he was promoted to Godhood at one point like Ghilan'nain (my whole theory is Solas was the sinner who shapeshifted into some divine form causing scandal...)

But he could have been a God all along and had a change of hear after years and years of abuse around him.

I mean having a God of rebellion , who doesn't believe he is a God , doesn't like religious propaganda , doesn't like slavery ,like free thinking , doesn't like the Well of Sorrow effect...

I mean!

He's standing against the ideologies the Creators were promoting ...you'd think after 20 years or so  , someone would stab him so he doesn't start giving ideas to his followers.

 

Well, I'm using direct quotes from legends and codices. I like basing my theories on information we have and taking logical steps forward from there until the information we're given is proven to be false. So far they seem to imply that he was their kin and regarded as a brother. Which would mean he is of them while "The Forgotten Ones" see his attitude and rather than judging him by his "nature" they accept him through his "deeds" i.e. cunning ways

 

exert from Geldauran's claim: "There are no gods. There is only the subject and the object, the actor and the acted upon. Those with will to earn dominance over others gain title not by nature but by deed"

 

Being of the god's does not mean he is like them. I think he saw both sides of the coin and realized those who truly suffered were the Elvhen people, thus he decided to rebel against those who would ignore the "little people" as Sera would so simply put it. The warring lead to casualties and he knew that eliminating one side wasn't enough, the shift of power would destroy the people, he had to stop the warring but also had to deal with both sides as they were keeping each other in check.

 

 

Well from some banter with Blackwall , it seems he was fighting during a war.

And yeah he probably started the revolution before he tricked them all , I mean after they were all gone ...no more leaders to rebel against.

 

I disagree. The problem wasn't just the gods. It had become more than that. It was the system. The warring was said to be a constant, made worse when the pantheon had to fight against "The Forgotten Ones". Fen'Harel saw that the lower class Elvhen people were casualties of their (the Pantheon's and The Forgotten Ones') war and as such needed to seal both parties away. Once that was done there were still the High Keepers and Highborn Elvhen people to take care of. How do you think they would have reacted. They obviously liked their own luxuries. They were on top of the fallacies perpetuated by such a broken system, never feeling the negative effects. They lived like kings and were devout to their gods. What do you think spurred the fall of Arlathan, what caused the continued conflict? It was the fact that the system had been implanted deep within the people. Even without the Gods present,  nobles and priests would still fight and die in their names to keep the status quo. Meanwhile, the slaves that could, would rebel seeing as the gods were gone. Internal strife, civil war. With no one to rule over them, to stem the chaos, then it would consume them. Besides, how could Fen'Harel have stood against both "The Forgotten Ones" and the Pantheon without subterfuge. If he was leading a rebellion, you'd think he would've waited to show himself until he found a way to stop those in power before they found out about his plans.

 

Given his conversation with Sera,

 

  • Solas: I heard about your organization, Sera. I am impressed.
  • Sera: Is this a trick?
  • Solas: Hardly. But it is an opportunity. You have already divided your group's membership. That is wise. No one cell can betray all your secrets. The next step is to establish a rhythm. When your enemies pursue, you vanish. When they become complacent, you harass them. When they are weak, you strike in earnest.

 

I'd say he was a very strategic man as well as being known for his cunning. He would've used the war between both the Pantheon and "The Forgotten Ones" to manipulate them to his ends. Otherwise, he surely would've failed, even with Mythal's help.

 

 


Yeah , we disagree.

I think he locked the Forgotten Ones behind an Eluvian , and he's sad about it.

You think it's the Creators.

 

So my point of view is...most of the Creators are a bunch of bloodthirsty tyrants , Godhood is great , slavery is fine ..."Hey people don't worship me enough I'm going to kill them" Falon'din.

Maybe some of them were fine , I mean Sylaise and what's his name June...

And Fen Harel did have some common ground with Mythal.

 

But I think he would root for the underdogs , the Forgotten Ones.

I know we don't know much about them.

But some of them didn't believe in the whole "Gods" stuff , they show sign of free thinking , they were rebels etc...They sound more like the Dread Wolf crew.

 

So I think they are the ones he had to trap behind a Eluvian for X reasons , and he may be sad because they were his true peers .Powerful freethinker elves who wanted to take a stand and change things.

 

 

They might have opposed the Pantheon but that doesn't make them freedom fighters. From what we can gather of Geldauran's claim

 

"There are no gods. There is only the subject and the object, the actor and the acted upon. Those with will to earn dominance over others gain title not by nature but by deed. I am Geldauran, and I refuse those who would exert will upon me. Let Andruil's bow crack, let June's fire grow cold. Let them build temples and lure the faithful with promises. Their pride will consume them, and I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery."

 

He couldn't have cared less about the Elvhen people.

 

"Those with will to earn dominance over others gain title not by nature but by deed". I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery"

 

Does this sound any better than the Elvhen Pantheon? Given Mythal was also part of the Elvhen Pantheon and how she acts, I believe that they (The Elvhen Pantheon) became corrupted by their own pride and power and this is why Fen'Harel was forced to act.

 

I believe "The Forgotten Ones" were fighting for their own power, they were jealous of the Pantheon and ambitious. I rather think they couldn't stand to be ruled over and were disillusioned with what the Pantheon stood for and claimed to be. So how would Fen'Harel relate to them as brothers then? I don't see it. I believe Fen'Harel saw how low his kin had fallen and decided to act, imprisoning both parties in order to save his people, unfortunately, his faith was misplaced

 

As for who is where. I think they were imprisoned in the Golden City because of the legends that tie them to the void and the abyss i.e. The taint, the blight etc. You could argue it was propaganda, but to use these extremes as a smear campaign seems unlikely. The Andruil legend specifically is way to reminiscent of the blight to discount completely. Seeing as how the Golden City blackened right after it was opened (literally being corrupted from the inside out) I believe it's likely connected to "The Forgotten Ones". That's why I think it's much more likely that the Elvhen Pantheon is trapped in the eluvians.


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