62 réponses à ce sujet

[morreski]

I've never played on a console, so what follows is a guess.

 

This may be old news to everyone but me - did the bottom line types at EA demand that DA:I be designed for ease of use on consoles, because you can't handle more than 8 skill slots with a joystick?  Or at least not without a lot of bother?  With the result that once you get to high level it no longer matters if you level up or not, there's no place to put a new skill.   Or you reorganize your skill selection, and that of each companion, for every new encounter - Let me see, those things are resistant to fire, so I need to move a cold spell into an active slot.  Etc.  

 

And then Bioware did the best they could with this marching order, and relied on skill trees with lots of passive skills, and on players exploiting combos.  Personally I find combos a pain in the @.  Well, you may say, that's why they have the casual setting.   Except it's boring. 

 

In the previous two instalments we could just keep adding skills in a row across the bottom of the screen. Firestorm! Deathcloud! Mass paralysis! (or pick your character class.) Part of the satisfaction in levelling up is gaining new power. Now it's meaningless, and combat is mostly a matter of holding down the left mouse button until one of the two or three spells that are effective in a given combat become active again.  

 

Bioware does good, engaging story lines, and believable characters with great dialogue. Some of the character cutscenes are terrific.  But this style of combat is a bore.  I've started Descent, and I should be looking forward to fighting new monsters with new powers.  As it is I'll probably continue, but only out of habit.

 

Edit: I should add that i posted the above tirade in the hopes that Bioware can find a way to recreate the kind of more engaging style they had in episodes 1 and 2.  And my apologies to the console world, if necessary.  Aside from DA and the Witcher series, i can't think of another RPG series of this quality.

[BansheeOwnage]

I've never played on a console, so what follows is a guess.

 

This may be old news to everyone but me - did the bottom line types at EA demand that DA:I be designed for ease of use on consoles, because you can't handle more than 8 skill slots with a joystick?  Or at least not without a lot of bother?

No, consoles are not the reason. Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 both had only 6 hotkeys for controllers, but we also had access to all skills via the radial menu. Arguably less convenient than PC, but still infinitely better than what DA:I does. There is no reason they couldn't have simply done the same thing in DA:I, but for some terrible reason or other, they elected to limit everyone to 8. It's terrible, and there was really no reason to do that. Did I mention I think it's terrible?

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Multiplayer. That's why. You have 4 abilities + 4 commands in multiplayer.  4+4 = 8.

[Darkly Tranquil]

The devs spouted some nonsense about it being "tactical" to only have 8 skill slots and to have to choose which ones to use, but that reeks of after the fact justification. I suspect the multiplayer had a fairly major role to play in shaping the way the game plays.

[morreski]

Multiplayer. That's why. You have 4 abilities + 4 commands in multiplayer.  4+4 = 8.

I see.  thanks.

bad motivation in either case, i take it?

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Yes it was designed as a multiplayer game first.

[devSin]

Yes it was designed as a multiplayer game first.

I wouldn't go quite that far, but the multiplayer very clearly impacted design.

[BansheeOwnage]

Multiplayer. That's why. You have 4 abilities + 4 commands in multiplayer.  4+4 = 8.

I don't think multiplayer is the cause. If you could use 8 slots plus the radial menu in singleplayer, you would still only get 4 abilities +4 potions in multiplayer. Conversely, if you're going to only have 4 abilities in MP, why limit singleplayer to 8? The two are unrelated.

 

Furthermore, ME3 MP had only 3 abilities, because there were 3 hotkeys, and because you can't use the radial menu in MP. In SP, however, you still had 3 hotkeys and access to all abilities from the radial menu. So limiting abilities in MP is clearly not the reason. I think it was just a silly move by the devs, which leads me to the following:

 

The devs spouted some nonsense about it being "tactical" to only have 8 skill slots and to have to choose which ones to use, but that reeks of after the fact justification.

Not the first poor decision the devs made to "evolve" DA:I combat. They thought removing healing spells would make the game more tactical too, but now we can just use Barrier, which is much easier than managing your party's health and mana. Similarly, limiting active skills does not make the game more tactical, because most of the time you have no idea what kind of enemies you'll face.

 

For instance, I could approach a rift with a fire mage, and devastate Despair Demons that spawn. Or, I could go to the same rift, since demons are randomly spawned, and end up against Rage Demons, and be killed. There is no strategy involved because you can't choose the appropriate abilities; you don't know which you need! This also results in being encouraged to use only spells that are useful in general, and skip useful, but more specialized abilities, because you won't need them often enough to justify wasting a slot (the same applies to focus abilities).

 

In any event, choosing which abilities to use in combat from your full list is more tactical than blindly guessing which ones to make available to yourself before a fight.

[Saphiron123]

The devs spouted some nonsense about it being "tactical" to only have 8 skill slots and to have to choose which ones to use, but that reeks of after the fact justification. I suspect the multiplayer had a fairly major role to play in shaping the way the game plays.

Healing magic would agree with you.

[Paul E Dangerously]

I don't think multiplayer is the cause. If you could use 8 slots plus the radial menu in singleplayer, you would still only get 4 abilities +4 potions in multiplayer. Conversely, if you're going to only have 4 abilities in MP, why limit singleplayer to 8? The two are unrelated.

 

Furthermore, ME3 MP had only 3 abilities, because there were 3 hotkeys, and because you can't use the radial menu in MP. In SP, however, you still had 3 hotkeys and access to all abilities from the radial menu. So limiting abilities in MP is clearly not the reason. I think it was just a silly move by the devs, which leads me to the following:

 

 

Actually, don't write it off. I think it is related to that, because Bioware didn't want to make different UIs for MP (limited slots) and DAO/DA2 style SP (unlimited slots/radial menu).

 

A lot of the game feels designed backwards, and the fact it was originally an MP title concept does lend credence to a lot of "Why would you do that?" questions about DAI.

[BansheeOwnage]

Actually, don't write it off. I think it is related to that, because Bioware didn't want to make different UIs for MP (limited slots) and DAO/DA2 style SP (unlimited slots/radial menu).

 

A lot of the game feels designed backwards, and the fact it was originally an MP title concept does lend credence to a lot of "Why would you do that?" questions about DAI.

Like I said in my post though, ME3 had no trouble having a radial menu in SP and limited slots on MP. There was no need for a different UI per se. The radial menu just ceased to exist in MP.

[Rawgrim]

Its because a dev thought "every ability" should be 1 quick button press away. Because of More action, more awesome, more responsiveness, etc. The 8 button ability is there because of the game being designed around a controller.

[Bioware-Critic]

In my opinion ...

... the devs simply did what EA wanted them to do ...

 

... and that is:

"To dumb-down the franchise as hard as possible without loosing everything!"

 

EA demanded and BioWare responded: "Cool! No problem, man. We can do that."

"... Ho, ho, ho ... dumbing-it-down, dumbing-itdown ... ho, ho, what a fun" "Let's gut the content and leave enough ashes in the ruins of a supposed to be really good RPG created by really talented people ... so that a new phoenix can arise from this ashes, named:

Single-Player-MMO!"

 

Simple as that. EAWare succeded on all fronts - Including in getting me to write here and cry my heart out

 

And none of us will ever get back what we once had (the complexity and depth we hoped to grow and to develop) in DA:O.

Never, never, never, N-E-V-E-R!

If EA wants to make aggressive PR for their products, the game they wanna sell needs to be able to be accessible for RPG-beginners. For people who don't play RPG's but racing games and shooters. For people who played Skyrim, or God of War ...

... but never one lousy RPG before.

 

Hard to swallow I know.

But that is exactly why I will stop right here.

 

 

For everybody who thinks my opinion is to negative ... just ignore me!

If what I writre is not interresting to you, just forget it. I am not gonna write much more in here anyway.

[coldflame]

Because bioware wanted to streamline everyhing, as they think us gamers are too dumb to use anything with more than 8 buttons.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Because bioware wanted to streamline everyhing, as they think us gamers are too dumb to use anything with more than 8 buttons.

EA agrees.

http://www.gamespot....n/1100-6425141/

[Xetykins]

EA agrees. http://www.gamespot....n/1100-6425141/

2 hrs?

[Kantr]

I don't think multiplayer is the cause. If you could use 8 slots plus the radial menu in singleplayer, you would still only get 4 abilities +4 potions in multiplayer. Conversely, if you're going to only have 4 abilities in MP, why limit singleplayer to 8? The two are unrelated.

 

Furthermore, ME3 MP had only 3 abilities, because there were 3 hotkeys, and because you can't use the radial menu in MP. In SP, however, you still had 3 hotkeys and access to all abilities from the radial menu. So limiting abilities in MP is clearly not the reason. I think it was just a silly move by the devs, which leads me to the following:

 

Not the first poor decision the devs made to "evolve" DA:I combat. They thought removing healing spells would make the game more tactical too, but now we can just use Barrier, which is much easier than managing your party's health and mana. Similarly, limiting active skills would does not make the game more tactical, because most of the time you have no idea what kind of enemies you'll face.

 

For instance, I could approach a rift with a fire mage, and devastate Despair Demons that spawn. Or, I could go to the same rift, since demons are randomly spawned, and end up against Rage Demons, and be killed. There is no strategy involved because you can't choose the appropriate abilities; you don't know which you need! This also results in being encouraged to use only spells that are useful in general, and skip useful, but more specialized abilities, because you won't need them often enough to justify wasting a slot (the same applies to focus abilities).

 

In any event, choosing which abilities to use in combat from your full list is more tactical than blindly guessing which ones to make available to yourself before a fight.

I dont think the rifts are random in what they spawn (certainly the one with the level 12 despair demon near druffy isn't)

[BansheeOwnage]

Its because a dev thought "every ability" should be 1 quick button press away. Because of More action, more awesome, more responsiveness, etc. The 8 button ability is there because of the game being designed around a controller.

Because bioware wanted to streamline everyhing, as they think us gamers are too dumb to use anything with more than 8 buttons.

It's very possible that was actually their reasoning, but I feel obligated to repeat how dumb it is. It's the same as removing tactics. There is no advantage whatsoever in removing them. Players could always ignore them or turn them off. Similarly, there is no advantage in removing the skills from the radial menu. Those players that are too dumb to use more than 8 buttons (technically 5) of which EA thinks are the majority can simply ignore the radial menu and use the hotkeys.

 

If they didn't want the average player to use a radial menu, why not remove the whole thing instead of just the abilities? And if they're going to leave things in for non-average players, why not tactics and the radial menu skills? There is no way you can look at this so that it makes sense.

 

Edit: I also realized this applies to attribute distribution. There was always an auto level-up option. There is no advantage in removing attributes if you always had the option to skip them anyway.

 

I dont think the rifts are random in what they spawn (certainly the one with the level 12 despair demon near druffy isn't)

I know they're somewhat random, or some of them are random. Sometimes if you die at a rift, you'll be fighting different demons if you try again. But sometimes, like you said, there are set demons. Either way though, it doesn't change my point about setting abilities beforehand, because even if some rifts are set, you can't put that to use on your first playthrough, and they shouldn't design tactics around metagaming.

[Wolven_Soul]

Healing magic would agree with you.

 

I am one of the few that didn't mind the lack of healing magic so much I think.  For me, it meant that the mage in my group could use the cool attack spells rather than just load them up with healing abilities.  Before if I wanted an attack mage I would have to have two mages in the group and I never cared for that idea.  It was probably the only change in combat that they made in this game that I didn't absolutely loathe.

[Wolven_Soul]

EA agrees.

http://www.gamespot....n/1100-6425141/

 

Wow...seriously?  2 hours?  I cannot think of a single game that I have ever played in my entire life that took two hours to learn.  What the heck where they talking about?

[Darkly Tranquil]

Wow...seriously?  2 hours?  I cannot think of a single game that I have ever played in my entire life that took two hours to learn.  What the heck where they talking about?

No idea. I think they are confusing learn with master. Basically they want the barrier of entry to be as low as possible so that even the most inexperienced and unskilled can play; sort of like Angry Birds.

I've come to the conclusion that many in the gaming industry have realised that there is far more money to be made (for far less effort) by creating super easy casual games for the non-gamer public, hence the explosive growth of trashy mobile games. Making games for gamers is too much effort for the return on investment; they cost far more to develop, and we're too demanding.

[Wolven_Soul]

No idea. I think they are confusing learn with master. Basically they want the barrier of entry to be as low as possible so that even the most inexperienced and unskilled can play; sort of like Angry Birds.

I've come to the conclusion that many in the gaming industry have realised that there is far more money to be made (for far less effort) by creating super easy casual games for the non-gamer public, hence the explosive growth of trashy mobile games. Making games for gamers is too much effort for the return on investment; they cost far more to develop, and we're too demanding.

 

I think your right, sadly enough.  Because I had absolutely no trouble at all learning DA:O.  I mean...it really was not complicated at all.  Like you said, it took some tinkering and effort to master the tactics, but even that wasn't hard.  It's common sense.  This button does this and that button does that.  

 

I pray to whatever gaming Gods might be listening that developers like CDPR and Bethesda never, ever get bought out by greedy soul destroying publishers like EA.

[thewatcheruatu]

This limitation was seriously vexing me toward the end of my playthrough. Once you get to, say, level 13 or so, you've upgraded most of your skills already, and gotten all the passives you want, and the only thing really left is to get more abilities. But because you can't even put them on your action bar, it just makes you angry. Well, anyway...it makes me angry. 

 

Was the idea that our characters would be too overpowered if we could use them all? Because I don't think that makes sense, since I'm pretty sure the AI could make use of all abilities in every fight, right? 

[9TailsFox]

I wouldn't go quite that far, but the multiplayer very clearly impacted design.

I would.

http://www.gamespot....y/1100-6423362/

[devSin]

You would be wrong.

That project was not Inquisition. It was simply the first thing to use Frostbite.