Aller au contenu

Photo

The Descent Explained (Major Spoilers)


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
28 réponses à ce sujet

#1
FrankWisdom

FrankWisdom
  • Members
  • 353 messages

 This is an exert from my Thread: (Major Spoilers) Accumulated Lore, Ancient (Elvhen), SolaFen + Theories & Discussions

 

If you like my deductions and theories on Lyrium and Dwarves check out the rest. I like discussing lore, so please feel free to comment, build upon or contend any of the points a bring up. 

 

http://forum.bioware...es-discussions/
 

Another awesome piece of lore, is something quite common, something called Lyrium. You know the thing that sings a song, almost like a calling... So we learn that Lyrium is alive, or at least is speculated to be, given it can be infected by the blight. I always thought lyrium was a product of The Fade made manifest, its physical manifestation, if you will. When Yavanna stated a time before the veil it had me think that lyrium was a product of what the world used to be. A fossil left over from an age unknown. Now that we know it's alive, it complicates things even further. The effect it has on living beings in its raw form , specifically mages (who have a strong connection to the fade) is similar to that of The Fade itself (in terms of contact with the physical realm). It is known that traveling physically to The Fade (without the Mark the Inquisitor sports) is lethal. The same way Lyrium is almost lethal on contact to beings that haven't a built up a natural resistance (such as Dwarves), specifically to mages.

It also begs the question, have Dwarves been physiologically altered by their proximity to Lyrium in more than just one way? In other words, is the fact that they have no magical affinity due to this phenomenon. In the Primeval Thaig from Dragon Age 2, Varric and Hawke discover "architecture that is very different from other thaigs and dwarf constructions. This thaig is the only known one left entirely untouched by darkspawn. It possesses great statues and temples, and also things created by magic. Both of these things are very strange, since the Dwarves worship no gods and are incapable of magic."

 This leads me to believe Ancient Dwarven culture and possibly their physiology was affected by the introduction of the veil somehow and that they once had the ability to wield magic. The obvious explanation is their exposure to lyrium, but it might be more complex, especially given they also once venerated gods, what those gods were however, is up for debate. Did Dwarves once live on the surface, were the gods they worshiped Great Dragons or is it something different entirely? The profane definitely hold a clue as to what that is, and it leads me to believe that those gods are something other than Great Dragons.

 Edit after The Descent: A bunch of awesome discoveries. Titans. Lyrium is Titan's blood. Holy crap. If Dragons ruled the sky before the veil, then Titans ruled the earth. This answers my questions about the Primeval thaig. Dwarves worshipped the Titans and the Titans in turn gave them access to magic, which explains everything about that ancient thaig. For some reason they stopped worshiping Titans and this happened before the blights. I still believe it had something to do with the creation of the veil (it is also revealed that the Titan's were disturbed by the breach, which reinforces my belief that the veil is what changed things between the Dwarves and the Titans).

 We also learn that Titan blood is different from mined Lyrium. The song emitted from lyrium originates from the Titans. It is said to be different from the Calling of The Old Gods. It is also revealed that Darkspawn avoid the Titans and where they reside. I believe the Titans' song, the song that emanates from their blood, which must be much more potent than the song from mined lyrium (the mined lyrium I'm guessing is more akin to an echo) is what drives them back. I'm guessing that Titans (and Titan blood) can't be infected by the taint the way mined Lyrium can be. If Titan blood could be infected like Red Lyrium, then I don't think darkspawn would be afraid to venture in Titan territory. In this location we also discover another race called the Sha-Brytol that not only seem to be the protectors of the Titans but also an offshoot of the Dwarven race or more likely what the Dwarves used to be before their separation. They are said to be pure. This seems to be referencing their connection with the Titans, meaning that they are interconnected somehow (maybe on a symbiotic level) through Titan blood.
 

 It also explains the current Dwarven physiology and their inherent resistance to lyrium. It is said that this resistance is only skin deep however, and that exposure to the eyes or through open wounds has the same effect on them as it does other races (which means because they don't have Titan blood flowing through their veins then the inner workings of their bodies are not protected from lyrium anymore, hence the resistance only being skin deep). Again, this is very interesting. It would explain why surface Dwarves lose their resistance to lyrium over time. At first I thought it would be explained scientifically i.e. evolution and adaptation. However if mined lyrium is less potent Titan's blood and Dwarves used to have Titan blood flowing through them and lived in a type of Symbiotic relationship with the Titans, then moving further away from the earth would explain them losing even the skin deep resistance that Dwarves living underground have retained since their split from the Titans and the Sha-Brytol.

 Valta, a temporary companion and one of the main characters in The Decent writes a journal after the events that transpired in the deep roads. In it she details that upon being struck down she "fell into a warm light's embrace", as if returning to the Stone. Now the blood of the titan flows through her, and its song tells of the times before titans fell and "the dwarven race broke in two". She doesn't sleep any more. Valta feels empowered by the gift of shaping stone and notices that the Sha-Brytol love and fear her, lost and misguided as they are. They even attempted to make an offering of their armor to her, but she recalled Renn and rejected the gift. This seems to reinforce my hypothesis about the connection between the Sha-Brythol and the Titans. It's also noted that since Valta has been connected to the Titan, her notion of time is becoming harder and harder to discern. She can't tell the difference between a moment an a day's worth of time. I think her connection is getting stronger and she's starting to experience things the way Titans do, such as the perception of time. She also finds a chamber.

 

"A domed, circular courtyard held a pool of the Titan's blood at its center. Empty suits of armor sat neatly in a circle around the pool. Is this where Sha-Brytol come to be entombed in their metal skins? What smith makes this armor, and where does it come from? My lost kin are hiding something. They have a Thaig somewhere. I have no interest in finding that citadel of the Sha-Brytol, but someone might."

 

This is an obvious hint at future games letting us do just that. It also peaks my interest in terms of where the Thaig is possibly situated, Perhaps close to Tevinter... Kal Sharok anyone? (I'll get into that later)

Back to my theory about the effect that the veil had on Titans. I think that it might have been what made them sleep, which would explain why the Titan was disturbed by the breach. If the Titan's slowly started "falling asleep", It might also stand to reason that the Sha Brytol seem confused because they were still connected to the Titans when the veil was created and decided not to leave them. Without the Titans"awake" to guide them, the Sha Brytol are without purpose, still connected but left without direction (only their need to protect the Titans is left, like a type of survival instinct triggered by the Titans, like antibodies. Given the symbiotic relationship it becomes in both their interests to protect each other). This could also explain why Valta isn't affected like the Sha Brytol once she is part of the Titans. Since she's part of the Dwarves who developed individuality, then I'm guessing being connected to the Titans while they're sleeping gives her the ability to retain her consciousness without being confused like the Sha-Brytol. It would also explain the quote above
 

"Valta feels empowered by the gift of shaping stone and notices that the Sha-Brytol love and fear her, lost and misguided as they are. They even attempted to make an offering of their armor to her, but she recalled Renn and rejected the gift."
 

I think the Sha-Brytol love and fear her because they recognize her individuality, they can feel it because she's connected to the Titans now, as they are. Since the Titans are asleep, I believe her mind is being heard by the Sha-Brytol. This would garner love because they finally are connected to someone who can think for themselves (and possibly for them as well) but they also fear her because it's not something their used too (individuality) as being guided by the Titan must have been vastly different. If my theory is correct I'm curious to know what effect that would have on them, if any at all.
 

It's also noted that Titan's were the "first" children of the stone and they in turn, consider Dwarves their children. This would imply that Dwarves were either a product of the Titans or simply the second creations of the Stone, the "grandchildren" really.
 

Now what Dagna talked about makes perfect sense (the conversations we have after The Arcanist and The Fade War Table Operation).

 

Dagna : (...) I've learned something. I think. I don't know.

Dagna : I got a scraping that was cleaned off you. And it's weird. And the other rift bits, they're weird. It's just... weird.

Dagna : Lyrium and the fade, linked. But Dwarves and tranquil, not linked. But they work lyrium, so they are. Somehow? (working the stone)

 (An Old Elven Writing mentions "pillars of the earth" which I'm guessing are the Titans and "their workers" which were probably the Dwarves of that age)

Dagna : There's something there. I was face-deep in a rune, and for a moment... I was tall. Really tall.

Dagna : And I thought -- I thought all the thoughts. (nervous laugh)

Inquisitor : You felt taller ? How much taller ? (She felt the connection with the Titans)

Dagna : Like, mountain-tall. Or I was the mountain. But I was moving. I felt dizzy. (She was the Titan, or rather seeing through it's "eyes" metaphorically speaking of course)

Dagna : You know what I remembered ? Watching a shaperate carve the wall of memory. Except... big. Isn't that weird ? Maybe there were fumes.

 (This makes me wonder why the Shaperate erased information on the Titans. Clearly it was a practice that was developed while the Dwarves were with the Titans. My guess is that the Dwarves who split from the Titans didn't want to go back because they enjoyed their individuality. In order to prevent that from happening or giving future Dwarves the option of going back, they struck the Titans from their records, eliminating that possibility altogether).
 

Inquisitor : What do you mean when you say "thought all the thoughts"?

Dagna : I don't know ? As if, for a moment, I was around all my people. And my thought was all of theirs ? No, no, my thought was all of our thoughts. Like parts. Ugh, words are mush.

 

(Again, that strengthens my belief that the Dwarves and the Titans used to hold a symbiotic relationship through Titan blood and the Titan song, probably on an empathic level).

Dagna : Maybe that's what the Stone feels like. Or we think it feels like. If we think it feels ? Creepy. (Same as above)

Inquisitor : So tranquil and dwarves are linked to lyrium, but also not linked ?

Dagna : Like the lyrium needs to flow, but if you're part of it, it takes you with it. so you can't be part of it. That makes me sad. I'm not sure why. It seems like we should be part of it. Whatever "it" is.
 

(This again seems to reference Titan blood, needs to flow, circulate i.e. if your part of it, it takes you with it, so you can't be part of it. Could she be referring to individuality? Again this would imply either a hive mind or symbiotic relationship of sorts. This also might explain why the Dwarves decided to split off from the Titans. Maybe it was more than just because of the veil. Maybe the veil cutting off The Fade is what "woke" the Dwarves up, or maybe the Titans had less control. If The Fade functions like a mirror for your will and emotions then shaping things becomes fluid, easy. If that is how the Stone shaped the Titans and how the Titans shaped Dwarves, perhaps it could explain the Titans' waning powers once the veil was introduced and contact with The Fade was impossible. I'm guessing because of this, Titans can no longer create other Dwarves the way they could before.)
 

Dagna : Or maybe we're the ones who make it happen ? Whatever "it" is?
 

(This might be the same thing as accepting to be a vessel for Elvhen gods, like Flemeth with Mythal. Maybe the Dwarves have to embrace the song and TItans for them to be joined again. I'm guessing that is what happened to Valta when she "fell into a warm light's embrace", as if returning to the Stone.)

Dagna : You know what's frustrating ? Answers that aren't answers. Bleah.

Dagna : I tried to make it happen again, but it wouldn't. Then I had a headache. And cocoa. And a lie-down.


  • Cespar, Akkos, mikeyhaha1 et 6 autres aiment ceci

#2
myahele

myahele
  • Members
  • 2 728 messages

According to Cole, Dwarves are also reaching out to something - a lost connection- that a song was somehow sundered. I do believe that Dwarves subconsciously are trying to connect to The Stone. And that the Stone is also trying to reconnect with her Children (dwarves)


  • FrankWisdom aime ceci

#3
themageguy

themageguy
  • Members
  • 3 176 messages
I approve :)
  • FrankWisdom aime ceci

#4
FrankWisdom

FrankWisdom
  • Members
  • 353 messages

According to Cole, Dwarves are also reaching out to something - a lost connection- that a song was somehow sundered. I do believe that Dwarves subconsciously are trying to connect to The Stone. And that the Stone is also trying to reconnect with her Children (dwarves)

That's great information. I didn't hear that, but Cole is someone I always bring in my party for exactly those types of comments, in this regard he is much like Kieran, very insightful, but very cryptic. Thanks for sharing :)



#5
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 989 messages

FWIW I've been throwing some of my theories out there as well in the Dwarf Support Thread for a while now, so I recommend checking it out OP. Most recent one is on page 269. Would be interesting to hear thoughts on the matter, because I think our thoughts might mesh together.



#6
pepper

pepper
  • Members
  • 21 messages

Greatly Approve


  • FrankWisdom aime ceci

#7
themageguy

themageguy
  • Members
  • 3 176 messages
I really hope we get to play as an dwarf that is connected to a titan in the future games.

force and stone magic FTW
  • Paragon Aeducan aime ceci

#8
helpthisguyplease

helpthisguyplease
  • Members
  • 809 messages

 I wanna kill a titan. I just hate god like creatures like the titans the world should be ruled by mortals not gods. 



#9
FrankWisdom

FrankWisdom
  • Members
  • 353 messages

 I wanna kill a titan. I just hate god like creatures like the titans the world should be ruled by mortals not gods. 

lol, you sound like Geldauran. As for the Titans, just because they're extremely powerful, doesn't make them gods. As for them ruling, well again debatable, they might have rule the earth before, shaping it as the pleased, but now they are dormant, so you're in luck.



#10
helpthisguyplease

helpthisguyplease
  • Members
  • 809 messages

They are immortal as far I know being made of stone and they probably created the dwarves they are very powerful so pretty much gods. I have no idea what makes a god or nor. Why are are the old gods well gods?

The problem with them is simple they can well destroy the world and that is something that can not be they should all be killed and mined of course.

I dislike them not for what they did but they are and they are something to dangerous to live.



#11
JJDXB

JJDXB
  • Members
  • 253 messages

They are immortal as far I know being made of stone and they probably created the dwarves they are very powerful so pretty much gods. I have no idea what makes a god or nor. Why are are the old gods well gods?

The problem with them is simple they can well destroy the world and that is something that can not be they should all be killed and mined of course.

I dislike them not for what they did but they are and they are something to dangerous to live.

 

 I wanna kill a titan. I just hate god like creatures like the titans the world should be ruled by mortals not gods. 

 

 

Just remember, what you are to them, ants are to you.  No, that does not mean ants, were they sentient and sapient, are allowed to kill all humans/dwarves/elves/qunari.  They are too dangerous to live?  They haven't exactly done anything of note since the veil tore and Arlathan fell.  You can make a point of the possible link between Mythal and Andraste, but the choice to go Andrastrian was entirely the decision of mortal men.  I can make the argument that the mortal races are also dangerous and should be destroyed, because have you seen what we've done to this planet?  The hubris of mortals in Thedas could have lead to the sundering of the veil, the enslavement of entire races and extinction of civilisations.

 

You, also have no idea what killing them would do.  Killing Mythal did... nothing really.  Sealing away the other elvhen gods resulted in the fall of Elvhen civilisation and enslavement lasting thousands of years.  Killing the titans could cause earthquakes to level all civilisation above ground, not to mention all dwarves to suddenly drop dead.


  • Paragon Aeducan aime ceci

#12
helpthisguyplease

helpthisguyplease
  • Members
  • 809 messages

My theory go inside them find their heart or their brain and destroy it then you mine him for its worth. It will still be there but like a mountain. Its one thing to destory entire races and civilization but not all and another thing to destroy every single living being on the planet. And I believe ants will kill us if they will become sentient as they have the numbers and assets to do it. Lucky they are not.

Do you know that we humans do not have the means to eliminate all ants? 



#13
FrankWisdom

FrankWisdom
  • Members
  • 353 messages

My theory go inside them find their heart or their brain and destroy it then you mine him for its worth. It will still be there but like a mountain. Its one thing to destory entire races and civilization but not all and another thing to destroy every single living being on the planet. And I believe ants will kill us if they will become sentient as they have the numbers and assets to do it. Lucky they are not.

Do you know that we humans do not have the means to eliminate all ants? 

 

Whose to say killing them won't destroy the world of Thedas? They are of the stone and they shape it. They obviously have a reason for being like The Fade and Dragons. They seem to live in a symbiotic relationship with Thedas, caretakers of the world. Besides they strike a balance with Dragons and The Fade, what happens when you disrupt that balance? Killing them might end up dooming Thedas and in turn, dooming you. Better check yourself, lest you betray the world with foolish actions.


  • Paragon Aeducan aime ceci

#14
helpthisguyplease

helpthisguyplease
  • Members
  • 809 messages

What is the role Dragons and the fade have that is so critical to the world?



#15
FrankWisdom

FrankWisdom
  • Members
  • 353 messages

What is the role Dragons and the fade have that is so critical to the world?

Don't know yet. All we know is there was a time before the veil when dragons ruled the skies. We also know that The Fade is somehow connected to the unconscious minds of humans, Elvhen and Qunari. Although it is noted to be very rare to see Qunari in the fade. Their culture seems to be the root cause as they believe The Fade to be sacred and reserved for their dead (like heaven or Valhalla). Dwarves don't dream because of their connection with Titans. Valta is proof of this as she "doesn't sleep" anymore when she becomes connected to the titan once again, which explains why they wouldn't have a natural connection to the Fade. The balance I was talking about is referring to Lyrium (Titan's blood) and the effect it has on magic. As I state in this thread, I believe Fade magic and Titan ("Primal" magic for lack of a better term) are two parts of the same coin like yin and yang or positve and negative. That's why they cancel each other out. I believe that in a time before the veil, Titans kept The Fade "grounded" so someone's "will" wouldn't override the "laws of physics" found in Thedas (the way it does when in The Fade). I think the veil is what made them "fall asleep" as they no longer need to be awake to do their job, for the time being anyways. This is only my theory based on what we know. So take it with a grain of salt.



#16
Sifr

Sifr
  • Members
  • 6 796 messages

According to Cole, Dwarves are also reaching out to something - a lost connection- that a song was somehow sundered. I do believe that Dwarves subconsciously are trying to connect to The Stone. And that the Stone is also trying to reconnect with her Children (dwarves)

 

In other words... the Dwarves are trying to reconnect to the Titans, but can't because someone or something changed the wi-fi password?

 

So maybe Valta getting hit by the lyrium was like using an ethernet cable to re-establish a manual connection to the router, to allow her to finally get online and able to access all the information they have floating in their world wide web?

 

:huh:


  • SandiKay0 et Avejajed aiment ceci

#17
Ulv Elskeren

Ulv Elskeren
  • Members
  • 211 messages

Kudos for having the stamina to try to lead people through your thoughts.   ^_^   I know how daunting it is to try to shape hunches and vague brain-stuff into a coherent argument.  I'm iffy on a few points, though:

 

First, one of us is confused about the nature of the change that surface dwarves undergo- and since I'm not the most grizzled of loremasters, it could definitely be me. What's your reason for believing that surface dwarves lose their ability to work lyrium?   From what I can recall, the primary distinction between the two is the loss of Stone Sense, a hunch-like sensation that influences the actions of sensitive dwarves (hypothesized to be a faint connection to the Stone) as well as an infallible (magnetic) sense of direction.  The reasons why the loss would be a natural consequence of moving toward the surface is explored in madrar's post here.  I'm not sure I follow your argument for surface dwarves' re-sensitivity to lyrium- both that it happens, and why.

 

Also, Cole's dialogue with Varric hints pretty strongly that dwarves carry a trace of lyrium inside them:  "You're quiet, but the old song still echoes inside, almost like templars."  His observation, though not ironclad proof , does point toward the song of blue lyrium being the original "song of creation" as distinct from the "sundered song" of red lyrium.   Whether the two respectively map to the Call of the Old Gods and Archdemons is less clear.   On the one hand, it would seem a bit counterintuitive if they were completely unrelated.   Still, if significant similarity existed between the song of blue lyrium and either Call, we'd assume mage Wardens would have been quick to note it- and they haven't.  Also, though Valta detects a pattern within the tremors, the Titan doesn't seem to be calling in any fashion. Its "voice" has rhythm, but no compelling melody.  All said, I'm not sure we can come to any definite conclusions yet. 

 

Finally, the idea that dwarven resistance is only skin-deep is something I hadn't come across myself, but definitely has interesting and potentially creepy implications in terms of the leather base for the Sha-Brytol envirosuits.  Can you point me to the lore behind that bit?



#18
TK514

TK514
  • Members
  • 3 794 messages

Since the Sha-Brytol didn't start getting pissy with us until we'd actually entered the Titan's body, I assumed they were the Titan's version of antibodies dealing with the infection of the Inquisitor.


  • Hellion Rex et FrankWisdom aiment ceci

#19
FrankWisdom

FrankWisdom
  • Members
  • 353 messages

Kudos for having the stamina to try to lead people through your thoughts.   ^_^   I know how daunting it is to try to shape hunches and vague brain-stuff into a coherent argument.  I'm iffy on a few points, though:

 

First, one of us is confused about the nature of the change that surface dwarves undergo- and since I'm not the most grizzled of loremasters, it very well could be me. What's your source for believing that surface dwarves lose their ability to work lyrium?   From what I can recall, the primary distinction between the two is the loss of Stone Sense, a "hunch"-like sensation that influences the actions of sensitive dwarves (hypothesized to be a faint connection to the Stone) as well as an infallible (magnetic) sense of direction.  The reasons why the loss would be a natural consequence of moving toward the surface is explored in madrar's post here.  I'm not sure I follow your argument for surface dwarves' re-sensitivity to lyrium- both that it happens, and why.

 

 

This is reflected in their resistance to magic, and accounts for their high tolerance to lyrium exposure.[5] Dwarves who live on the surface for a long time (or who were born there) appear to gradually lose this resistance - however, there is still no recorded exception to their inability to learn spellcasting.[6]

 

↑ 6.0 6.1 6.2 6.3 Dragon Age: Origins: Prima Official Game Guide

 

(that is apart from their stone sense)

 

"A unique dwarven ability is "Stone sense",[7] a talent for subterranean navigation derived from the race's progenitor, the Stone. Stone sense is described as the ability to hear the distant song of lyrium. This connection allows dwarves to sense a passageway before reaching it and can navigate the Deep Roads without getting hopelessly lost. The stone sense of dwarves as well as their magic resistance is slowly lost the longer they are on the surface."

 

I don't base my theories on suppositions, i base them on the information we're given in all the media surrounding Dragon Age.

 

 


Also, Cole's dialogue with Varric hints pretty strongly that dwarves carry a trace of lyrium inside them:  "You're quiet, but the old song still echoes inside, almost like templars."  His observation, though not ironclad proof , does point toward the song of blue lyrium being the original "song of creation" as distinct from the "sundered song" of red lyrium.   Whether the two respectively map to the Call of the Old Gods and Archdemons is less clear.   On the one hand, it would seem a bit counterintuitive if they were completely unrelated.   Still, if significant similarity existed between the song of blue lyrium and either Call, we'd assume mage Wardens would have been quick to note it- and they haven't.  Also, though Valta detects a pattern within the tremors, the Titan doesn't seem to be calling in any fashion. Its "voice" has rhythm, but no compelling melody.  All said, I'm not sure we can come to any definite conclusions yet.

 

"The stone sense of dwarves as well as their magic resistance is slowly lost the longer they are on the surface"

 

If their descendants were once connected to the Titans, then it would make sense wouldn't it?

 

"Still, if significant similarity existed between the song of blue lyrium and either Call, we'd assume mage Wardens would have been quick to note it- and they haven't."

 

mage wardens don't have stone sense, I'd see a dwarf warden being able to pick up on that more so than a mage warden.

 

The point is moot though as the song emitted by lyrium is said to be different than the calling. red lyrium doesn't have the same effects as the calling, yet is still affected by the taint.

 

the song seems to interfere with the calling, especially when emitted from Titan's blood as I mentioned above. Lyrium, which I believe to contain only an echo of the song would still interfere with the calling, but wouldn't be strong enough to counter it. I believe this twists the lyrium song, making the main compulsion to spread and also enhancing the negative effects, the madness and loss of personality (memories) from normal lyrium exposure.

 

 "the Titan doesn't seem to be calling in any fashion. Its "voice" has rhythm, but no compelling melody".

 

Who said the Titan was "calling" or described it as such?

 

 

 Finally, the idea that dwarven resistance is only skin-deep is something I hadn't come across myself, but definitely has interesting and potentially creepy implications in terms of the leather base for the Sha-Brytol envirosuits.  Can you point me to the lore behind that bit?

 

Check out the dragon age wikia on dwarves, it has it's sources listed as well as most accumulated knowledge. http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Dwarf

 

As for the Sha-Brytol I'm assuming you've read all of my thread so you know what I think of their situation. I believe the difference between them and Valta has to do with her individuality vs. the Sha-Brytol who are still connected to a "sleeping" Titan, which can't effectively guide them anymore. I believe this changed much of the dynamic between them and the Titan, explaining their instinctual behaviour (protecting the Titan) but also their reverence and fear of Valta once she is connected to the Titan. It could also explain them having to feed on lyrium and their physiological demeanor.

 

Thanks for reading! :)



#20
Ulv Elskeren

Ulv Elskeren
  • Members
  • 211 messages

Let me back up a bit.

 

"The song emitted from lyrium originates from the Titans.  It is said to be different from the Calling of The Old Gods."

 

It's the "it is said" bit that I'm trying to track down here.  I know you're not spinning theory out of thin air, and agree that this may be the case, but I was curious whether this point was built from circumstantial evidence or firmly established in a context I wasn't familiar with.   

 

The reason this is a concern is the lingering question about the nature of the Shimmer Stone Mine in the Western Approach: whether the entity the Wardens were seeking was in fact a dormant Old God or a Titan- and whether there is, fundamentally, a difference.  

 

"So close. We nearly reached him. Made it down to what looked like a dwarven thaig where the song was actually audible, real and thrumming through the air, not just in our heads. It rattled through the lyrium pillars and shook the earth beneath our feet to its dreadful tempo. We lost thirty men in the last cave-in, and the Warden-Commander is abandoning the mission. I tried to argue for one last push, but the rock is too unstable down there. We'll have to find another Archdemon somewhere more solid."

 

Quakes, cave-ins, ancient dwarven thaigs and pillars of raw lyrium.  The scenario is a suspiciously close match for what we find in Descent.  Yet the Wardens recognize the song as being the same as the Calling they hear in their minds.   

 

You seem very certain that Titans and the Old Gods / Pantheon are distinctly different kinds of entities.  To me, it seems possible the song of blue lyrium is the "old" song of the Earth and Stone, that the titan we encountered in Descent was a single Pillar of Earth, and that other titans (the Sun, the Darkness) sing a different song whose volume and reach is proportionate to their power.   I would love to be certain either way, but haven't encountered the lore "it is said" is based on.

 

The same holds for "It is said that this resistance is only skin deep".  It's a really interesting point with some bizarre implications and a whole set of new questions about why and how, but I can't seem to track down the actual source.   



#21
TeffexPope

TeffexPope
  • Members
  • 736 messages

Characters like Dagna are annoying...they speak gibberish or in half-riddles, and then try to explain complex concepts. I just glaze over the words, they become meaningless to me.



#22
FrankWisdom

FrankWisdom
  • Members
  • 353 messages

Let me back up a bit.

 

"The song emitted from lyrium originates from the Titans.  It is said to be different from the Calling of The Old Gods."

 

It's the "it is said" bit that I'm trying to track down here.  I know you're not spinning theory out of thin air, and agree that this may be the case, but I was curious whether this point was built from circumstantial evidence or firmly established in a context I wasn't familiar with.   

 

The reason this is a concern is the lingering question about the nature of the Shimmer Stone Mine in the Western Approach: whether the entity the Wardens were seeking was in fact a dormant Old God or a Titan- and whether there is, fundamentally, a difference.  

 

"So close. We nearly reached him. Made it down to what looked like a dwarven thaig where the song was actually audible, real and thrumming through the air, not just in our heads. It rattled through the lyrium pillars and shook the earth beneath our feet to its dreadful tempo. We lost thirty men in the last cave-in, and the Warden-Commander is abandoning the mission. I tried to argue for one last push, but the rock is too unstable down there. We'll have to find another Archdemon somewhere more solid."

 

Quakes, cave-ins, ancient dwarven thaigs and pillars of raw lyrium.  The scenario is a suspiciously close match for what we find in Descent.  Yet the Wardens recognize the song as being the same as the Calling they hear in their minds.   

 

You seem very certain that Titans and the Old Gods / Pantheon are distinctly different kinds of entities.  To me, it seems possible the song of blue lyrium is the "old" song of the Earth and Stone, that the titan we encountered in Descent was a single Pillar of Earth, and that other titans (the Sun, the Darkness) sing a different song whose volume and reach is proportionate to their power.   I would love to be certain either way, but haven't encountered the lore "it is said" is based on.

 

The same holds for "It is said that this resistance is only skin deep".  It's a really interesting point with some bizarre implications and a whole set of new questions about why and how, but I can't seem to track down the actual source.   

 

 

"It is said that this resistance is only skin deep"

 

"made dwarves naturally resistant, though not completely immune, to its effects. Even their resistance is only skin deep, as open cuts and direct exposure to the eyes leaves them vulnerable. Surface dwarves lose this resistance over time."

 

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Lyrium

 

 

"You seem very certain that Titans and the Old Gods / Pantheon are distinctly different kinds of entities.  To me, it seems possible the song of blue lyrium is the "old" song of the Earth and Stone"

 

The song of the earth and stone is the song of blue lyrium, but not the calling. If you're insinuating the "old" is in reference to the old gods then I disagree.

 

Given Yavana said that there was a time before the veil where dragon ruled the skies and the fact that Titans shape the stone, I would assume that both fill an equally important role. One that consists maintaining balance. Therefore no, I do not equate them to the same thing. Part of the same coin, but on different sides.

 

"So close. We nearly reached him. Made it down to what looked like a dwarven thaig where the song was actually audible, real and thrumming through the air, not just in our heads. It rattled through the lyrium pillars and shook the earth beneath our feet to its dreadful tempo. We lost thirty men in the last cave-in, and the Warden-Commander is abandoning the mission. I tried to argue for one last push, but the rock is too unstable down there. We'll have to find another Archdemon somewhere more solid."

 

This codex entry has peaked my interest before, but we don't know the context. People surmise there is an infected Titan. So far I don't believe this to be the case, given the negative effect Titans seem to have on darkspawn and the calling. The only way I'd see a Titan becoming infected, is if something that wasn't infected by the taint willingly brought something that was in the Titan.

 

Example: Dwarves who believed in individuality and felt Titans needed to be destroyed, or changed. Better yet. You know what I think of the veil and how I think it is what sundered the connection between Dwarves and Titans, or at least, what weakened it or made it possible for Dwarves to experience individuality?

 

Well I also think it made the Titans dormant, because their role was to "ground and enforce" reality while The Fade was "creation made manifest" and now that the veil was present, this wasn't necessary. The Titans needed The Fade in order to have a "constant" function (which is why the breach disturbed the Titan).

 

So, what if some Dwarves decided to leave the Titans but then felt like they were missing a part of themselves because they couldn't take the silence? What if they turned to something else that was "calling" some noise to fill that silence. We saw Dragon statues in the primeval thaig. I believe some of these Dwarves decided to serve whoever was "calling" in order to fill that "void", which led them to take desperate measures, including eventually infecting lyrium. Well, maybe they bring that into the heart of a sleeping Titan, mix it in with Titan blood and start infecting it that way.

 

I'm less inclined to believe this, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me (in terms of a Titan being tainted) and that I'd accept as an explanation given what we know so far.

 

Though there is no mention of red lyrium by the wardens in the codex you quoted. So I'm guessing this was not a blighted Titan.

 

Someone also pointed out that Titans could in fact be the prisons of the old gods. This could make sense but again, given how darkspawn stay away from Titans as we see in the descent, it seems highly unlikely.

 

Now your theory. They (Titans and Archdemons) are one in the same. The only thing we have to go on is that for some reason, the Wardens describe hearing a song that they believe is emanating from an Archdemon. However, everything they describe seems to point to a Titan. So what does this mean? Well, honestly it doesn't mean anything for the time being. This is too little information coming from only one source.

 

Could the lyrium have intensified the "calling" of the Archdemon... Maybe

 

Could the strength of the song be determined by the power of the Archdemon as you suggest? Maybe, but unlikely given that Dumat was supposedly the eldest and most powerful of the old gods. Nothing has been indicated in the past that the calling had different intensities depending on the Archdemon, even when Wardens fought near them during blights. We've had five blights. Nothing of that nature has been hinted at or mentioned in any media so far. Does it disprove your theory? No. But There hasn't been any evidence to back it up.

 

Could the Titan song and the Archdemon song be the same song? No, it's clearly been distinguished, both are fundamentally different.

 

"Rhys hears a faint song when Wynne pulls out a large bottle of lyrium. When they proceed with the ritual to enter the Fade, the song gets louder and more insistent until Rhys feels as if he is "about to vibrate out of existence". The strange music so different from the call of the Old Gods also "invades" and "fills up" Cole who witnesses the ritual, while Adrian is "swept away" by it when they awaken, leaving the Fade."

 

Dragon Age: Asunder

 

We also know that "Justice says that his lyrium ring, a gift from the Warden-Commander, has a beautiful song that summons an ache he didn't know he had. He also states that lyrium doesn't sing in the Fade and regrets his inability to bring the music there for the other spirits to hear."

 

This would also help reinforce (in my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt) my theory about Titans and their role when The Fade was not separated from the "physical" world by the veil.

 

"Cole tells that the song of red lyrium is different from the song of regular lyrium.[13] Whether it is also different from the call of the Old Gods is unclear.

 

In his party banters Cole remarks that once "everything sang the same"[14] and then "the song was sundered"[15], even though "the old song still echoes" inside dwarves, almost like templars"

 

My interpretation is:

 

"everything sang the same" (before the veil)

 

"the song was sundered" (because of the veil)

 

"the old song still echoes" (echoes of the past, sleeping Titans)

 

Think of this what you will. Check out the link dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Lyrium At the top. It's at the end of the Introductory paragraph to the Lyrium page. They don't give the source for this information, but I believe it was stated in Origins. I found it in other forums and wikis however, so it seems like established knowledge. Given that it is in the "official" dragon age wikia, I don't doubt its authenticity. If you're still not satisfied, then be my guest and dig deeper. Again, thanks for the discussion. I always like someone who challenges my theories and makes me think, just don't ask me to do your homework for you ;).



#23
Tony208

Tony208
  • Members
  • 1 378 messages

Would be cool if titans were leviathans from ME. 

 

Think about it...

 

The stone = appearance

 

The song = indoctrination



#24
Ulv Elskeren

Ulv Elskeren
  • Members
  • 211 messages

Yikes- I didn't notice you'd responded to this.  Sorry for the late reply!

 

Quick explanatory note: I didn't expect you to go out of your way to dig up the source if it wasn't on hand-  I was just hoping you had a reference other than the wikia.  The place is great for codex lookups, but at the end of the day, it's still fan-made content. I've stumbled over some seriously weak interpretations of lore presented as 'fact', particularly on summary pages where people don't bother annotating.

 

Moving on, though:

 

The song of the earth and stone is the song of blue lyrium, but not the calling. If you're insinuating the "old" is in reference to the old gods then I disagree.

 

Not at all.  I meant "old song" as in Cole's inferred description of lyrium:

 

"I heard the old songs of the templars at Val Royeaux and followed them." 

"Digging and delving like dwarves. Do they hear the old song, too?"

"You're quiet, but the old song still echoes inside, almost like templars."

 

But just so we can't get too comfortable in our theories, he also seems to describe the fade as being a connection to the "old song":

 

"I thought I had to [eat], but I don't. The old songs can pull me."

 

And worse, what seems to be a reference to red lyrium:

 

"He heard the old songs call. Special, pretty, perfect for him. Then red all over, inside and out."

 

...which we might be able to shove into place if we assume an intended temporal progression in there?  [Templar reference to old song], [time passes],[red lyrium templar].  Still, it's odd that the actual text is "old songs call"- he uses the plural, not the possessive.   Proofreading typo? Maybe.  Unfortunate that it's one that changes the quote's meaning in theory-torturing ways.   

 

And another one to mess with theorycrafting:

 

[in the Fallow Mire] "So many old songs under the water."

 

Dead... Templar?  That would create a dangling thread history-wise, but I can't think of a plausible alternative that lines up with our understanding of "old song" = blue lyrium.  

 

I agree that it seems likely the Titans (beneath the ground) went dormant when the veil went up.  This gets a bit into the theoretical cosmology of Thedas, but I believe these would have been forces of Order, willingly giving up their former lives to hold reality in place.  (Pillars of the Earth, pinning the veil and holding Chaos at bay)   And though I'm painfully aware that it makes little sense for Maryden to be singing a song of ancient entities, it's hard not to read parallels in the lyrics of Once We Were.   For example:

 

We held the Fade (Pinned the veil)
And the demon's flight  (the Darkness trapped at the heart of the physical world)
So far from our children (obvious)
And from our lives. (their prior lives, as the Titans seem to 'sleep' in a form of Uthenera)
 
To clarify another point, my hunch is that two sets of Titans preceded the Elvhen pantheon: a faction of Order (currently trapped in the Abyss), and a faction of Chaos (currently trapped in the Void).  The blood of each 'sings' a different song.   Order sings the original Song of Creation (blue lyrium) while Chaos sings the Sundered Song (red lyrium.)   I'm not convinced a Titan of Order was purposefully infected, but it's possible?   It's not necessary to explain its presence in Thedas, though- in theory (assuming Dalish myth holds a fragment of truth) some of the wounded Sun's "blood" would have lingered underground after Elgar'nan released him from the Abyss.
 
Anyway, that was the uncertainty I was trying to point out: that the call of the Archdemon could be related to the Sundered Song of red lyrium.  I can't think of any other way to make the pieces fit, since we know for certain an Archdemon's Call doesn't mimic the song of blue lyrium, yet the digging Wardens recognized the song they heard as being the same.  And yet... as you said, no mention of red lyrium in the codex.  You'd assume they'd have made a note.  
 
Something about the whole thing just doesn't sit right.  Is there an alternate solution I'm not seeing?
 
As for your interpretation of Song's evolution, that's an entirely valid take.   Personally, I flip back and forth between that perspective and this:
 
"When everything sang the same"  - The age of Order's dominion. The deterministic universe, original "song of creation", governed by a single Will.
"The Song was sundered" - Chaos emerged.  The fixed path of the universe splintered into quantum indeterminism.   Start of the war between Order and Chaos.
"The old song still echoes" - the blood of the titans of Order (and their children) continues to sing the original song.
 
And on that point, consider how unsettling Valta's final conversation is.  She still appears to be in control, but her new perspective is distinctly fatalistic.  "I have changed because the Titan willed it.  The mine's collapse, Renn's death- it all happened to bring me here."   It was 'fate'.  A predetermined end.  I can't shake the feeling that she's once again a thrall of Order, and that the Sha-Brytol suits are actually intended to protect them from the Titan's influence as they keep guard, rather than vice-versa... but cutting myself off here, because that's way off-topic.

  • FrankWisdom aime ceci

#25
Nashina

Nashina
  • Members
  • 54 messages

Do you think then, that Sandal also has some titan blood in him? That is why he can mysteriously do weird things? Same as Valta.