115 réponses à ce sujet

[Andreas Amell]

I still think Andraste was just high on lyrium when she envisioned the Maker. 

[myahele]

I would not be too surprised if Andraste was a Dwarve or atleast half dwarf (like the progenitor/inspiration of the Ash Warriors)

[dragondreamer]

the Andrastian chantry which is the chantry of all of Thedas except the imperium is more valid than the imperial one,

 

 

I'm sure most folks outside the Imperium would say so.  But I find it interesting that for all that the Imperium is painted as terrible baddies, they might actually be right about a lot of things where the Chantry is concerned.  For instance, it seems increasingly unlikely that the magisters created the Blight or the Darkspawn.  It fits the narrative of the Southern Chantry to paint mages and magic as the root of all evil, but it's as nonsensical as the Imperial Chantry removing all mage responsibility from the chant.  The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, but I don't see either Chantry as "more valid" in any way.

 

The IC is probably more accurate in the portrayal of Andraste, because they aren't trying to prop her up as divine.  They only see her as a very important prophet.  The SC is probably more accurate where the temperance of mages is concerned, but judging by the difference between the role of mages in the early Chantry vs what came later, I have doubts Andraste would have approved of how zealously strict the Southern Chantry became in policing mages. 

 

But in any case, the Chant itself is not a reliable historical document.

 

WoTv2 pg 63 :

 

Once the war band reached northern Thedas, and began to spread their faith to the people they were rallying against Tevinter rule, variations emerged. As the Alamarri did not have a written alphabet at the time, Andraste's teachings were almost certainly spread throughout her army from one camp to another and to their new allies by word of mouth.  Unsurprisingly, even Andraste's own people had at least ten different versions of her teachings.

 

 

What was chosen for the official Chant, was selected out of a great mess of accounts, from countless individual Andrastian cults, and they selected what fit the preferred narrative.   Dissonent verses, like the Canticle of Shartan have been completely scrapped simply because they were politically inconvenient.  Just like Inquisitor Ameridan's identity in the early Chantry.

[Master Warder Z_]

Hmmm I only remember the part Maferath collected her tears in a vial when he came to comfort her as she despaired over the fate of humanity or something.
I don't remember anything about meditation.

The Guardian also references days long Mediation if you ask him about her.

[dragondreamer]

The Chantry doesn't necessarily prop her up as Divine either. She's a prophet. Not a god. 

 

Seems to be the case with the Sacred Ashes guardian too, who is probably as close to original beliefs as we'll get (i.e. before Imperial/Orlesian schism). He just calls her a messenger, that's gone back to the Maker.

 

To the Southern Chantry, she's not *just* a prophet, she's also the holy bride of the Maker, ascended to his side.  She's worshipped.  The Imperial Chantry doesn't worship her.

 

The Sacred Ashes guardian is a bit tricky, being a spirit.  It's hard to say how much is accurate and how much is playing a part.  He's also all kinds of vague. 

[dragondreamer]

Bride of the Maker still isn't Divine. The story is just that he heard her prayers, and he wanted her with him... but she pleaded that he help instead. It's a down to earth role, in a sense. She's just a human pleading for her kind. He gave a chance, and people killed her.. and then he took her with him, as the story goes. It doesn't mean she's divine herself. It just means he was impressed. 

 

As for the Guardian Spirit, I don't know what it makes it so easily dismissed than a gift book from Wynne. Why do people latch on to one theory but not that?

 

Either way, I'd rather it stay open ended. 

 

"We believe what we want to believe. It's all we ever do."

 

WoTv1 pg 111
 

 

According to the Chant of Light, the Maker emerged from his retreat after falling in love with Andraste and the beautiful song she sang for him.  The Maker came to Andraste and offered to take her away from the flawed mortal world as his divine bride.

 

 

And then he supposedly does that after all is said and done.  Andraste is cleansed of all sin and ascends to his side, watching over Thedas.  The "divine bride of the Maker" business isn't part of the Imperial Chantry's take on things.

 

As for the Guardian Spirit, there just isn't a lot to latch onto there as far as Andraste is concerned.  Like I said, he's very vague.  "Who really knew Andraste, blahblahblah..."  The gift book to Wynne is an illustration of the fact that the idea of Andraste being a mage is considered heresy in the South, to the point of censorship, which is why the book is described as appearing as though it had been rescued from a fire.  It isn't proof of being a mage, it's proof that the SC is known to violently erase things that don't fit the narrative.

[arelenriel]

If she was a mage, I don't know why they don't just say it.. or why everyone around her is suddenly idiotic about what magic is, when magic rules everything in the Imperium. It's less mysterious and out in the open then than it is now. And if she was a slave, it's also strange that her own Tevinter masters couldn't recognize it. Doesn't that add to the "product value" or something?

 

If they want to basically just have a story of a badass general and mage rebelling against the Imperium, then that would be fine in the first place. There's a lot of story there. Why drag it into the realm of mystery, create a religion for milennia, and perhaps finally come out with some "DLC revealing a hidden mystery" that just makes people feel like they wasted their time caring about another faction (this is sort of the case with the new state of the Dalish too.. and the Seekers). Pretty soon you have less factions and lore to even care about in the setting. Everyone's deceived and actually "something else". The version 2.0 of the faction may not get as many fans, so I'd be careful if I were them.

Remember the Magisterium controls Tevinter-Andraste and those who followed her were slaves.. they had no reason to love mages and all the reason in the world to shove the fact that she was a mage under the carpet -- just as they docked Shartans ears and swept him under the carpet after the Exalted March on the Dales. History is written by the victors and in the Andrastian after her death- mages and elves were not the victors- the human Andrastian chantry and their interpretation of what she said the Maker said were the victors

[Master Warder Z_]

Like every other faction ever

[dragonflight288]

I don't get it, are you referring to the codex entries in joh?

 

Those weren't chant texts right?

 

The dissonant verses were once part of the Chant of Light, but were removed for a variety of reasons. In Origins if you play as an elf you can talk to that one Chantry cleric who is butchering the Chant of Light in Denerim and she'll tell you all about the Canticle of Shartan, a portion of the Chant written by the elven general who supported Andraste in the war to free southern Thedas from Tevinter, but was removed from the Chant after the Exalted March on the Dales.

 

Awakening has the Cantacle of Maferath, written in the Wending Wood on 12 statues that gives the account of Maferath, the husband who betrayed Andraste to the Imperium and how he talks of how he was forgiven by the Maker and Andraste for his actions, and the quest description tells us it is a Dissonant Verse, and as such is heresy to study by the Chantry. 

 

In Inquistion, we hear an elf talking to a chantry sister in Haven and he asks about there being a canticle written by an elf and she emphatically denies such a thing ever existed, which fits the narrative of what has been established by the Dissonant Verses. We also learn about the Canticle of Silence, written by a Tevinter Magister that was taken out of the Chant. 

 

Given the evidence, I find that the Chantry changes its scripture to fit the political narrative.

[dragonflight288]

To the Southern Chantry, she's not *just* a prophet, she's also the holy bride of the Maker, ascended to his side.  She's worshipped.  The Imperial Chantry doesn't worship her.

 

The Sacred Ashes guardian is a bit tricky, being a spirit.  It's hard to say how much is accurate and how much is playing a part.  He's also all kinds of vague. 

 

I think he's a lot like that Divine we meet in the Fade. 

 

It's hard to tell where he ends and a spirit begins because he talks about knowing her personally in life if your cunning is high enough, and that he was one of the original disciples who brought her to the temple. 

[Shari'El]

The unusual phenomenons during her war against the Imperium were famines, droughts and flooding, that seems more like miracles rather than magic, it fits the description of godly punishment, the OGB possession is a far shot, very powerful spirit perhaps, but still speculations.

 

And she did beat quite the number of magisters, in the end it was her husband who betrayed her, and the archon who killed her.

 

The unusual phenomenons could be a work of a hedge mage, they are known to develop magic that is unheard of... But I think since there is evidence of darkspawn tunnels that diverted rivers around the Imperium it's safe to assume that there was no magic involved.

 

Also, I'm reminded of (has nothing to do with the above):

 

... Tevinter reversed a number of Our Lady's early victories... There a number of outright losses that history all but ignores.
If Tevinter found its full strength and its people were rallied against this heretic, Andraste, the Alamarri would be faced with the reversal of their success.

 

 

The host of the Lady

Began to falter. The legion

Turned spear and sword, fire

And ice upon them, and the warriors

Of the Prophet were scattered.

Divided from their commanders

By magic, penned like cattle for slaughter.

 

There were many defeats in the assault against Tevinter, if they would've gathered more resources to fend off this barbarian menace the Alamarri wouldn't have stood a chance. Maybe it's luck, maybe it's divine guidance, perhaps even blood magic

I tend to go with mage-vanity, the Magisters versus a horde of barbarian? They felt they are less of a threat then the idea of civil war. If they wouldn't have been so focused on the unrest inside the Imperium they would've won, so the famine and drought and flooding still didn't weaken them enough. The verse I quoted shows they [the Alamarri] were on the verge of losing entirely.

I feel the fact that Maferath was an excellent tactician had a lot to do with their victory as well, it is something that keeps showing in the texts, he had that advantage. In case of divine guidance I would've expected less casualties and a more definite win, since in the end, as said, it all fell on the fact the Imperium didn't see them as a threat.

 

If she were a mage, it would essentially destroy the Chantry's narrative of her, or at least be a bludgeon to the faithful as it would provide severe implications to a lot of the "divine miracles" that followed her march. 

 

If she is a mage, it could be argued that it was not the Maker that helped their armies, it was magic. But the people were rebelling against a magocracy and Tevinter. 

 

There is a book in Orzammar that can be gifted to Wynne that outright suggests Andraste was a mage, but the book survived a burning and the description says as much. 

 

She could still be a mage, but the type that would be part of the Loyalist if she were alive now XD

I don't know if a hedge mage could mistake his own magic for miracles, but perhaps her prayers and meditations led to large scale magic that could be interpreted as miracles.

 

This tattered tome explores the possibility that Andraste was a powerful mage, not the Maker's Chosen. It seems this book was saved from a fire at some point.

 

To me it seems to be more of a research/exploration of the idea, we can't know of its' content, but it makes sense a book like that would exist.

Modifié par Shari'El, 16 août 2015 - 07:45 .

[Shari'El]

I would not be too surprised if Andraste was a Dwarve or atleast half dwarf (like the progenitor/inspiration of the Ash Warriors)

 

I've never of that theory

Explain!

Please?

[Master Warder Z_]

if they would've gathered more resources to fend off this barbarian menace the Alamarri wouldn't have stood a chance.

They did, they still lost.

The largest battle of the war was outside their capital and where their armies were still shattered all the same.

[Shari'El]

They did, they still lost.

The largest battle of the war was outside their capital and where their armies were still shattered all the same.

 

Shattered is a strong word, and where does it say they gathered all of their resources? I'm interested.

"Historians" said that "If Tevinter found its full strength and its people were rallied against this heretic, Andraste, the Alamarri would be faced with the reversal of their success."

 

Also they may have been victorious at the field, but as said in the Canticle of Apotheosis

 

... for every one who stood and sang the hymn of praise,

Two lay at their feet, soul seeking the Light eternal.

Maferath's heart grew cold

As he looked upon the field of the dead...

 

So their loses were great, and the gates of Minrathous were closed and they started to prepare to lay siege to the city.

The canticle portrays Maferath's betray without using the word 'jealous' or the like.

Without the words of betrayal that usually appear whenever Maferath is spoken of, it seems that Maferath's betrayal was a tactical one and driven from the many loses of the battle. They were in a bad position and probably wouldn't have held out too good during a siege.

 

Maferath took with him his Aegis, and arrived at the appointed place

Where Hessarian waited with his guard, and the two leaders of the armies spoke,

Guarded in riddles, and came to an understanding between them

That peace bore a heavy price which must be paid in blood.

 

It's mainly my own interpretation though

[Master Warder Z_]

Shattered is a strong word, and where does it say they gathered all of their resources?

WOT's entry on the battle at Valarian Fields indicated that this was the strongest army ever assembled to combat Andraste's Invasion

[Shari'El]

WOT's entry on the battle at Valarian Fields indicated that this was the strongest army ever assembled to combat Andraste's Invasion

 

If you speak of the book of Brother Genitivi then "It is said" is kind of problematic, nothing but tall tales.

 

It is said that the Maker smiled on the world at the Battle of Valarian Fields, in which the forces of Maferath challenged and defeated the greatest army Tevinter could muster

 

If you speak of the "Battle of Valarian" paragraphs at the beginning of the second WoT, I already quoted from there.

 

We can now draw on the records that Tevinter was suffering civil unrest over the Blight and the silence of the Old Gods. The barbarian menace was a real threat. but while some magisters were committed, the full resources of the empire were not.

...

While the forces available to face to face Our Lady were considerable, they were not the full might of the empire.

 

The fact the Alamarri recount the battle as "Tevinter's best showing" is meaningless.

 

After that section there are two sections "Andraste's Unbound" & "Maferath and Doubt", the first tells of losses the history ignores and the second says that if Tevinter found its' full strength then the Alamarri would've faced with the reversal of their success.

 

Unless you speak of another entry? I've yet to finish reading the second book.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Battle of the Valerian Fields was the strongest army the Imperium was able to muster given the circumstances, but they did have the potential for more. WoT Volume 2's author suggests fear of a regrouping Imperium was the reason that Maferath betrayed Andraste. 

[Master Warder Z_]

The Battle of the Valerian Fields was the strongest army the Imperium was able to muster given the circumstances, but they did have the potential for more. WoT Volume 2's author suggests fear of a regrouping Imperium was the reason that Maferath betrayed Andraste.

It devolved into a siege true but the point being they took the best shot Tevinter had and came up standing.

It's like the battle of Yavin in Starwars, the loss of the Death Star and its personal was a grevious blow but not a mortal one.

They won a victory that forced the greatest empire in history to the bargaining table.

So I'd cede just from that perspective it was an event that left Tevinter twisting in the wind. They couldn't defeat Andraste but Andraste couldn't breach their city and sieges favor the defenders usually.

[Dai Grepher]

*Sigh*

 

First, World of Thedas is garbage. It gets a lot of things wrong, as has been proven to be unreliable elsewhere.

 

Second, Andraste was probably hexed by a demon or mage as a child. Which explains the vulnerabilities and abnormalities. She was likely cured when she met the Maker, who could remove any afflictions easily. This also explains how people could follow her then. Who would follow the ramblings of a sick woman? She must have proven to those around her, who knew her, that she was cured by the Maker.

 

Third, "circumstances" do not explain all that happened to bring Tevinter to the brink of destruction. All those things happening at just the right times are beyond coincidence. Also recall that the old gods being imprisoned and the darkspawn magisters being cast back to the real world were the Maker's doing. So if you look at it another way, the Maker was attacking Tevinter long before Andraste started. She was just joining his cause, basically.

 

Fourth, the text says that it did give the barbarians an advantage because those passes had been known as legendarily fortified. It doesn't matter that nearby Tevinter defenses weren't crushed, what mattered is that natural barriers were broken down to give them a clear path. It would have been pointless if the Maker did everything for the army. The point was to show the army the way, encourage them, and have them decimate Tevinter's defenses to send the message that ordinary people could topple an empire.

 

Fifth, you forget that Maferath was not victorious. He betrayed Andraste because he was jealous of the Maker. When she died, so did any hope of taking Tevinter down. The fact is, Tevinter did see the barbarians as a threat, but they also knew the threat could be eliminated through bribery and by destroying the source of morale. With Andraste burned at the stake, Tevinter hoped to prove that her Maker was no true god. Because what god could let that happen to her? And this is the same reason why Tevinter still tries in the present to lie about Andraste with tales that she was a mage, that circumstances like overextension and poor crop management caused Tevinter to wither. They don't want to admit that they murdered the Maker's chosen. They don't want to admit they were wrong. But Hesserian knew. When he saw Andraste burning he knew that she was right all along. So he did what he could to give her mercy, and then took up her cause by converting and setting out to champion her word above those of the false dragon gods that had only brought lies, ruin, and death. But of course the magisters couldn't be bothered to entertain Hessarian's ideals. They didn't spend all that time, resources, and effort trying to destroy the Chant just to have it adopted in their own home. So they corrupted Hessarian's dream and turned it into the Imperial Chantry. And that's how they continue to be. Still trying to kill Andraste. Still practicing slavery even after she liberated the elves from them. Still ruling over man with magic.

 

Sixth, what Corypheus said in Haven is contradicted by what he said right before he died, which is that he walked the halls of the Golden City. So Corypheus was either lying to the Herald at Haven in order to sew doubt, or he was lying to himself because, like the rest of Tevinter, he didn't want to admit he was wrong. But he did say he saw the throne of the gods and that it was empty. Like Sera said in more colorful terms, a throne means a Maker to sit on it.

[Master Warder Z_]

 

First, World of Thedas is garbage. It gets a lot of things wrong, as has been proven to be unreliable elsewhere.

 

That would be the second one, the first one was golden because they actually paid attention for the most part...I think I found maybe four errors in the entire text.

[Shari'El]

*Sigh*

 

First, World of Thedas is garbage. It gets a lot of things wrong, as has been proven to be unreliable elsewhere.

 

Where?

It's an official book, kind of doubtful it's unreliable.

 

Second, Andraste was probably hexed by a demon or mage as a child. Which explains the vulnerabilities and abnormalities. She was likely cured when she met the Maker, who could remove any afflictions easily. This also explains how people could follow her then. Who would follow the ramblings of a sick woman? She must have proven to those around her, who knew her, that she was cured by the Maker.

 

Ehh, these are assumptions, by the timeline Andraste married Maferath at -187 and was unable to bear him children (and that's why he had a concubine) and she started preaching of the maker a year later, at -186, so by that logic she met the Maker at that time but she still wasn't able to bear children because of her sickness. It took a decade for her to get better.

 

 

Third, "circumstances" do not explain all that happened to bring Tevinter to the brink of destruction. All those things happening at just the right times are beyond coincidence. Also recall that the old gods being imprisoned and the darkspawn magisters being cast back to the real world were the Maker's doing. So if you look at it another way, the Maker was attacking Tevinter long before Andraste started. She was just joining his cause, basically.

 

Fourth, the text says that it did give the barbarians an advantage because those passes had been known as legendarily fortified. It doesn't matter that nearby Tevinter defenses weren't crushed, what mattered is that natural barriers were broken down to give them a clear path. It would have been pointless if the Maker did everything for the army. The point was to show the army the way, encourage them, and have them decimate Tevinter's defenses to send the message that ordinary people could topple an empire.

 

Okay?... The darkspawn tunnels can easily explain how drought and flooding attacked their lands, and that's circumstances, as well as the civil unrest within the empire.

 

And yeah, you say the Maker cast the magisters back to the real world, but Corypheus said the throne was empty.

The idea of the Maker planning on attacking Tevinter before Andraste started is kind of slim.

First thing first, the idea that the Maker was working on bringing floods and drought to Tevinter is unheard of, I'm pretty sure that if he was waging war against them then it would've looked different, and if not that then there at least would've been a mention of it. The Maker turned His back on Thedas the moment they forgot about Him, He didn't try to make them remember.

When Andraste first appealed to Him he asked her to join Him in heaven, Andraste had to convince Him. This kind of mindset doesn't really go along well with assaulting the empire. And, even if it did, are you suggesting the Maker can control the minds of the darkspawn to make them borrow under the empire in a manner that would cause floods etc.?

 

Fifth, you forget that Maferath was not victorious. He betrayed Andraste because he was jealous of the Maker. When she died, so did any hope of taking Tevinter down. The fact is, Tevinter did see the barbarians as a threat, but they also knew the threat could be eliminated through bribery and by destroying the source of morale. With Andraste burned at the stake, Tevinter hoped to prove that her Maker was no true god. Because what god could let that happen to her? And this is the same reason why Tevinter still tries in the present to lie about Andraste with tales that she was a mage, that circumstances like overextension and poor crop management caused Tevinter to wither. They don't want to admit that they murdered the Maker's chosen. They don't want to admit they were wrong. But Hesserian knew. When he saw Andraste burning he knew that she was right all along. So he did what he could to give her mercy, and then took up her cause by converting and setting out to champion her word above those of the false dragon gods that had only brought lies, ruin, and death. But of course the magisters couldn't be bothered to entertain Hessarian's ideals. They didn't spend all that time, resources, and effort trying to destroy the Chant just to have it adopted in their own home. So they corrupted Hessarian's dream and turned it into the Imperial Chantry. And that's how they continue to be. Still trying to kill Andraste. Still practicing slavery even after she liberated the elves from them. Still ruling over man with magic.

 

You are just using the Chantry's interpretation. The original canticle spoke nothing of jealousy (of Maferath).

 

... for every one who stood and sang the hymn of praise,

Two lay at their feet, soul seeking the Light eternal.

Maferath's heart grew cold

As he looked upon the field of the dead...

 

What the Chantry says is that Maferath looked at the thousands of people kneeling in front of Andraste and became jealous, the canticle itself says he looked over the field of dead and his heart grew cold.

And it was Maferath who sent for Hessarian, not the other way around, they couldn't have predicted Maferath would show up and give the Prophet.

Hessarian was prepared for a siege, in which the defender usually has the upper hand.

 

The lord of Alamarri sent forth his most trusted runner

To the gates of Minrathous itself, to call the Archon to parley,

That like the leaves after a long winter, a peace too might return to land...

 

Sixth, what Corypheus said in Haven is contradicted by what he said right before he died, which is that he walked the halls of the Golden City. So Corypheus was either lying to the Herald at Haven in order to sew doubt, or he was lying to himself because, like the rest of Tevinter, he didn't want to admit he was wrong. But he did say he saw the throne of the gods and that it was empty. Like Sera said in more colorful terms, a throne means a Maker to sit on it.

 

The throne doesn't prove the Maker existed, it is speculated that the Black City once belonged to the Elven Pantheon, the are many theories regarding that.

 

The truth is we don't have enough information to know either way, and that's on purpose. For every thing Bioware throws at us that supports the Maker there is something to dismiss him. It's not supposed to be definite.