Aller au contenu

Photo

(WOT Volume 2 Spoilers!) Andraste, not a special snowflake?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
115 réponses à ce sujet

#51
Caddius

Caddius
  • Members
  • 2 222 messages

Shari'El basically summed up my views. :)

Just want to add that Corypheus consistently refers to 'the throne of the gods'. I'm guessing he's using that metaphorically, since I doubt seven Old Dragon Gods are going to share a single chair. And I doubt that there was a single chair.

Again, as the Inquisitor points out to Giselle, as deranged as Corypheus might be, he is an eyewitness to the Black City Assault, and his testimony is immeasurably more valuable than the Chant, which as people have been pointing out, has undergone massive revision and editing in its history, because the Chantry is an organization as human as any other.

Corypheus's line about 'walking the halls of the Golden City' seems, again, more metaphorical. It looked Golden before they got on the inside, so he's grabbing on to his great 'accomplishment' of entering Heaven, even if it turned out to be corrupted. 

I find a lot more evidence supporting Maferath betraying Andraste out of strategic importance than just 'jealousy of her popularity'. The Alamarri inflicted terrible losses on the Imperium, but they weren't going to take Minrathous. As it was, Maferath managed to walk away with half of Thedas to divide between his heirs. 

I think Black Andrastianism is probably closer to the truth than White Andrastianism, but they're right for the wrong reasons. It's probably the same whitewashing the South did, but in this case, pro-mage and trying to lessen the sin of setting the Maker's Bride on fire. But Andraste's odd episodes, meditation, and the fortuitous 

While it may just be a spirit, Cathaire in the Temple of Sacred Ashes makes mention of fire and famine devastating the Imperium, delivered by the Maker. Feynriel shows himself capable of killing a gang of thugs from the other side of the world with his Dreaming, Andraste being a Dreamer could explain a lot. 


  • Andraste_Reborn, Dirthamen, Bayonet Hipshot et 2 autres aiment ceci

#52
Master Warder Z_

Master Warder Z_
  • Members
  • 19 819 messages

Cathaire in the Temple of Sacred Ashes makes mention of fire and famine devastating the Imperium

 

The Maker kindled the sun's flame, scorching the land. Their crops failed, and their armies could not march. Then He opened the heavens and bade the waters flow, and washed away their filth.

 

That's beyond any known Mage's ability bro.

 

It's one thing to influence the world via restorative magic to revitalize a deadened patch of earth, its another to cause a drought and then a flood, as far as I know there isn't any magic that directly ties into manipulation of the heavens.

 

So I personally doubt Andraste was pulling a Ukojizai no Jutsu



#53
Dai Grepher

Dai Grepher
  • Members
  • 4 750 messages

Where?

It's an official book, kind of doubtful it's unreliable.

 

 

Ehh, these are assumptions, by the timeline Andraste married Maferath at -187 and was unable to bear him children (and that's why he had a concubine) and she started preaching of the maker a year later, at -186, so by that logic she met the Maker at that time but she still wasn't able to bear children because of her sickness. It took a decade for her to get better.

 

 

 

Okay?... The darkspawn tunnels can easily explain how drought and flooding attacked their lands, and that's circumstances, as well as the civil unrest within the empire.

 

And yeah, you say the Maker cast the magisters back to the real world, but Corypheus said the throne was empty.

The idea of the Maker planning on attacking Tevinter before Andraste started is kind of slim.

First thing first, the idea that the Maker was working on bringing floods and drought to Tevinter is unheard of, I'm pretty sure that if he was waging war against them then it would've looked different, and if not that then there at least would've been a mention of it. The Maker turned His back on Thedas the moment they forgot about Him, He didn't try to make them remember.

When Andraste first appealed to Him he asked her to join Him in heaven, Andraste had to convince Him. This kind of mindset doesn't really go along well with assaulting the empire. And, even if it did, are you suggesting the Maker can control the minds of the darkspawn to make them borrow under the empire in a manner that would cause floods etc.?

 

 

You are just using the Chantry's interpretation. The original canticle spoke nothing of jealousy (of Maferath).

 

 

 

 

What the Chantry say is that Maferath looked at the thousands of people kneeling in front of Andraste and became jealous, the canticle itself says he over the field of dead and his heart grew cold.

And it was Maferath who sent for Hessarian, not the other way around, they couldn't have predicted Maferath would show up and give the Prophet.

Hessarian was prepared for a siege, in which the defender usually have the upper hand.

 

 

 

 

 

The throne doesn't prove the Maker existed, it is speculated that the Black City once belonged to the Elven Pantheon, the are many theories regarding that.

 

The truth is we don't have enough information to know either way, and that's on purpose. For every thing Bioware throws at us that supports the Maker there is something to dismiss him. It's not supposed to be definite.

 

That I know of, the timeframe with Bryce and Eleanor and when they get married contradict the lore presented in the game. It also seems to go against their apparent ages in the game.

 

There is a similar contradiction with the city elf's father. And I think there was something about who was an elf leader at what time and who succeeded that elf. I'm not as familiar with this one though. My main Origins character is a Cousland, not an elf, so I'm more familiar with the first example.

 

It's unknown why she didn't have kids with Maferath until later. It may have had nothing to do with her physical ability to do so.
 

No, darkspawn do not explain drought and flooding. Those are two contradicting events. If tunnels diverted water away, then they may get drought. Fine. But in that case they don't get flooding, because the water was redirected. The only way a flood occurs in that case is if it rains hard for a long period of time. Both of these are easily explained, and easily countered for mages of Tevinter. A drought is easy to explain. Either your rivers and lakes dried up, or you get no rain for long periods of time. But either way, the mages should have been able to replenish the water via magic. They couldn't. Why? The Maker. And it wasn't just lack of water. The Maker also burned the crops with intense heat. Then he sent massive rainfall to erode the soil. And this was widespread, not just in one area. So that is too much to be a coincidence or even darkspawn.

 

Assuming Corypheus isn't lying, an empty throne doesn't mean the Maker doesn't exist. It just means the Maker wasn't sitting on the throne at the exact time when the magisters invaded the Golden City.

 

Why is it slim? Tevinter attacked the Maker's house first, didn't it?

 

My point is that if the Maker were bringing the pain to Tevinter, then he started by sending their corruption back to the world with them. That was the counterattack. That's one heck of a wallop if you ask me. But then when Andraste joins the fight, then the Maker switches to other tactics so Andraste and her followers can take part as well.

 

She had to convince him not to give up on the world. Theoretically, the taint should have been enough to bring Tevinter down over time. So of course he's going to recommend she bail on that world just like he did. Then when she appealed to him, he decided to give the world another chance. Thus, the tactics changed to where Andraste would lead the charge in taking down Tevinter.

 

I think the Maker could control the minds of darkspawn sure. Not that he would need to. I'm not saying he intended to take down Tevinter with waterway diversions due to darkspawn tunneling, that was probably just how it worked out, IF the water really was diverted by the darkspawn. All I'm saying here is that the calamities that befell Tevinter, including the darkspawn, were the Maker's doing. So even these circumstances were because of the Maker.

 

I'm going by what the spirit in the temple said in DA:O. Now, if this were just a matter of strategy, I don't see why Maferath would betray Andraste. He would simply call a ceasefire, or make a deal with Hessarian to call a truce, and that would be it. But no, he gave Andraste over to Tevinter. Why? Jealousy is the only answer we have.

 

And we also learned that the elven pantheon is nothing but a bunch of spirit harboring mages.

 

The way I see it, they confirmed the Maker's existence in DA:O, and now that the series has taken off, they are trying to undo what they already proved in the first game in order to make the storyline more mysterious.


  • Yaroub et Umaya aiment ceci

#54
Yaroub

Yaroub
  • Members
  • 707 messages

I'm sure most folks outside the Imperium would say so.  But I find it interesting that for all that the Imperium is painted as terrible baddies, they might actually be right about a lot of things where the Chantry is concerned.  For instance, it seems increasingly unlikely that the magisters created the Blight or the Darkspawn.  It fits the narrative of the Southern Chantry to paint mages and magic as the root of all evil, but it's as nonsensical as the Imperial Chantry removing all mage responsibility from the chant.  The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, but I don't see either Chantry as "more valid" in any way.

 

 

The creation of the blight is still mainly the magisters doing, it's just we learn that other factors contributed in it, who leads the blight? the old gods, not the elven gods nor the titans, who worshiped the old gods? the magisters, it was through a ritual taught by Dumat that Cory managed to enter the fade and lead the other six magisters to the supposed golden city. They didn't create the darkspawn, they just unleashed it by becoming the first ones.

 

And it is not the narrative of the Andrastian chantry to paint the magic as the root of evil, it's just a fact.

 

 

The IC is probably more accurate in the portrayal of Andraste, because they aren't trying to prop her up as divine.  They only see her as a very important prophet.  The SC is probably more accurate where the temperance of mages is concerned, but judging by the difference between the role of mages in the early Chantry vs what came later, I have doubts Andraste would have approved of how zealously strict the Southern Chantry became in policing mages. 

 

No the Imperial chantry is just a big scam, it serves only as the will of the Archon, in what way it is more accurate than the Andrastian one.

 

And yes i agree that Andraste will not approve of the way mages are treated in general.

 

 

But in any case, the Chant itself is not a reliable historical document.

 

WoTv2 pg 63 :

 

 

What was chosen for the official Chant, was selected out of a great mess of accounts, from countless individual Andrastian cults, and they selected what fit the preferred narrative.   Dissonent verses, like the Canticle of Shartan have been completely scrapped simply because they were politically inconvenient.  Just like Inquisitor Ameridan's identity in the early Chantry.

 

The chant still the only reliable text regarding Andraste exalted march on the Imperium, give me another one if it's more accurate i will take it.

 

The removal of THE Canticle of Shartan is wrong yes. "Those who had been slaves were now free", though the Chantry didn't alter the fact that the elves took part in Andraste campaign, they removed the Canticle based on racial interest.

 

And Ameridan isn't in any way part of the chant, so hiding his identity isn't that big deal.


  • Dai Grepher et Umaya aiment ceci

#55
Shari'El

Shari'El
  • Members
  • 1 670 messages

That I know of, the timeframe with Bryce and Eleanor and when they get married contradict the lore presented in the game. It also seems to go against their apparent ages in the game.

 

There is a similar contradiction with the city elf's father. And I think there was something about who was an elf leader at what time and who succeeded that elf. I'm not as familiar with this one though. My main Origins character is a Cousland, not an elf, so I'm more familiar with the first example.

 

It's unknown why she didn't have kids with Maferath until later. It may have had nothing to do with her physical ability to do so.

 

I've already noticed that the writers messed up a bit with the timelines, but that doesn't discredit all of the book.

Also, the idea that she was too weak to bear children is something that appeared in many texts.

 

No, darkspawn do not explain drought and flooding. Those are two contradicting events. If tunnels diverted water away, then they may get drought. Fine. But in that case they don't get flooding, because the water was redirected. The only way a flood occurs in that case is if it rains hard for a long period of time. Both of these are easily explained, and easily countered for mages of Tevinter. A drought is easy to explain. Either your rivers and lakes dried up, or you get no rain for long periods of time. But either way, the mages should have been able to replenish the water via magic. They couldn't. Why? The Maker. And it wasn't just lack of water. The Maker also burned the crops with intense heat. Then he sent massive rainfall to erode the soil. And this was widespread, not just in one area. So that is too much to be a coincidence or even darkspawn.

 

Okay, I'm not a meteorologist but I know that drought leads to favorable conditions for wildfires. Moreover, rain after drought is known to lead to floods because the parched ground is slow to absorb the rain. I don't know the exact season these events occurred but if it was winter time it's plausible to suffer from both famine & drought followed by flooding. It doesn't really prove nothing.

As said in the previous post, nothing is definite, they don't give enough evidence to prove/disprove the Maker.

 

Assuming Corypheus isn't lying, an empty throne doesn't mean the Maker doesn't exist. It just means the Maker wasn't sitting on the throne at the exact time when the magisters invaded the Golden City.

 

Caddius wrote it beautifully :)

 

Just want to add that Corypheus consistently refers to 'the throne of the gods'. I'm guessing he's using that metaphorically, since I doubt seven Old Dragon Gods are going to share a single chair. And I doubt that there was a single chair.

Again, as the Inquisitor points out to Giselle, as deranged as Corypheus might be, he is an eyewitness to the Black City Assault, and his testimony is immeasurably more valuable than the Chant, which as people have been pointing out, has undergone massive revision and editing in its history, because the Chantry is an organization as human as any other.

 

Why is it slim? Tevinter attacked the Maker's house first, didn't it?

 

My point is that if the Maker were bringing the pain to Tevinter, then he started by sending their corruption back to the world with them. That was the counterattack. That's one heck of a wallop if you ask me. But then when Andraste joins the fight, then the Maker switches to other tactics so Andraste and her followers can take part as well.

 

She had to convince him not to give up on the world. Theoretically, the taint should have been enough to bring Tevinter down over time. So of course he's going to recommend she bail on that world just like he did. Then when she appealed to him, he decided to give the world another chance. Thus, the tactics changed to where Andraste would lead the charge in taking down Tevinter.

 

I think the Maker could control the minds of darkspawn sure. Not that he would need to. I'm not saying he intended to take down Tevinter with waterway diversions due to darkspawn tunneling, that was probably just how it worked out, IF the water really was diverted by the darkspawn. All I'm saying here is that the calamities that befell Tevinter, including the darkspawn, were the Maker's doing. So even these circumstances were because of the Maker.

 

First thing, I think it's slim because it wasn't spoken of anywhere and makes little sense with we know of the Maker.

Canticle of Silence 3 speaks of the Maker getting angry because the magisters breached the Golden City using the blood of innocence because they were power hungry. He didn't even seem to get mad that fact they entered him realm, just the way they did it and why.

The canticle didn't speak of vengeance, at the end when He throws the magisters back He was sorrowful more than angry.

"And the Maker in sorrow turned His gaze,

And no longer hoped for His children to return."

If His goal was to bring pain to Tevinter then He pretty much failed since most of the pain was felt by the poor dwarves.

The taint affects all of the Thedas, sending the magisters back with taint in hope it destroys the Imperium is pretty much giving up on His children.

 

There is another side affect to the darkspawn's tunneling:

 

As the darkspawn advances to the surface, the land around them is sucked out of moisture, bringing wasting force that blackens the earth and withers plants to dust.

 

The darkspawn resurfaced at -380 Ancient, at the edges of the Imperium, if this is really one of the side-affects of the darkspawn's presence then it compliments the drought even more.

 

I'm going by what the spirit in the temple said in DA:O. Now, if this were just a matter of strategy, I don't see why Maferath would betray Andraste. He would simply call a ceasefire, or make a deal with Hessarian to call a truce, and that would be it. But no, he gave Andraste over to Tevinter. Why? Jealousy is the only answer we have.

 

And we also learned that the elven pantheon is nothing but a bunch of spirit harboring mages.

 

If you speak about the spirit of Maferath, then know that there is more than one right answer, it could be jealousy or "I don't know".

But that's besides the point, he is a spirit, like Justinia V was a spirit in the fade, spirits are not complex beings. The spirit of Justinia just took her form and what is remembered of her, it could be the same for the spirit that imitated Maferath.

 

Maferath could've called ceasefire, sure, but then all of the sacrifices were for naught, and I doubt Andraste would've agreed for a ceasefire. Andraste was a threat, the Prophet of a new religion, for Hessarian getting rid of her is worth enough for truce.

Don't forget the two debated long and hard on the terms of their truce, perhaps it wasn't even obvious at first there was a need to sacrifice Andraste.

 

Maferath took with him his Aegis, and arrived at the appointed place
Where Hessarian waited with his guard, and the two leaders of the armies spoke,
Guarded in riddles, and came to an understanding between them

That peace bore a heavy price which must be paid in blood.

 

Also, we learned nothing of the Elven Pantheon, Solas said they could've been powerful mages, spirits or something else entirely. This doesn't negate the fact they were worshiped and were said to reside in the Beyond (which is the Fade).

 

Old elven beliefs call it "the Beyond", a holy place once home to their gods. What little of elven lore has survived speaks of Fen'Harel, a trickster god who schemed to take the Beyond for himself, imprisoning his brethren in the Eternal City at its heart. The elves believe their gods remain trapped in the prison to this day, as Fen'Harel, the Dread Wolf, gleefully patrols the Beyond to feast upon the souls of the dead.

 

We already have proof that some of the elven lore is correct, Fen'Harel exists, Mythal exists. The Golden City was thought by the elves to be the residence of their gods, we have nothing to contradict that.

 

The way I see it, they confirmed the Maker's existence in DA:O, and now that the series has taken off, they are trying to undo what they already proved in the first game in order to make the storyline more mysterious.

 

Where was it confirmed?



#56
Yaroub

Yaroub
  • Members
  • 707 messages

Okay, I'm not a meteorologist but I know that drought leads to favorable conditions for wildfires. Moreover, rain after drought is known to lead to floods because the parched ground is slow to absorb the rain. I don't know the exact season these events occurred but if it was winter time it's plausible to suffer from both famine & drought followed by flooding. It doesn't really prove nothing.

As said in the previous post, nothing is definite, they don't give enough evidence to prove/disprove the Maker.

 

It dose prove a lot of things not nothing, it proves that the maker has guide her, and watched over her during the campaign.

 

Caddius wrote it beautifully :)

 

The maker has left this entire world and departed the golden city during the events. it's the lore, he wasn't meant to be there.

 

Canticle of Silence 3 speaks of the Maker getting angry because the magisters breached the Golden City using the blood of innocence because they were power hungry. He didn't even seem to get mad that fact they entered him realm, just the way they did it and why.

The canticle didn't speak of vengeance, at the end when He throws the magisters back He was sorrowful more than angry.

"And the Maker in sorrow turned His gaze,

And no longer hoped for His children to return."

If His goal was to bring pain to Tevinter then He pretty much failed since most of the pain was felt by the poor dwarves.

The taint affects all of the Thedas, sending the magisters back with taint in hope it destroys the Imperium is pretty much giving up on His children.

 

The Canticle of Silence is no Canticle or whatsoever, it's writing by a freaking magister who fought against Andraste, and give a whole different perspective than the Andrastian one. And it speaks of the maker way way before Andraste campaign, when she appailed to him he answered her, your timing isn't accurate.

 

Where was it confirmed?

 

It was conformed through the whole game and especially Origins, there's a whole tons of lore support his existence, it's not like the DA:I revealing of the elven gods contradict his existence, because...well them and the old gods are not actually gods, they're just powerful spirits, dragons whatever, i bet the elven ones weaker than the old gods.

As for the maker he is represented as an absolute being, making him to appear in game not likely.


  • Umaya aime ceci

#57
Drasanil

Drasanil
  • Members
  • 2 378 messages

It dose prove a lot of things not nothing, it proves that the maker has guide her, and watched over her during the campaign.

 

It proves she invaded during a drought that was followed by a flood. Could be the Maker, or just be a mix of savvy and luck attributed to Divine Guidance in hindsight. It really doesn't prove anything.

 

If she was really favoured by the Maker and had one of the best generals of her age as a husband, why did the battle at the Gates of Minrathous leave 2/3rds of her army dead (which are catastrophic casualty figures) and leave her in a position where she was unable to accomplish her ultimate goal when it was just in reach?

 

If the Maker moved mountains and valleys for her, why didn't he pull a number on the walls of Minrathous Jericho style? A trivially minor feat compared to rearranging the landscape of a country. 


  • Dirthamen et Shari'El aiment ceci

#58
Shari'El

Shari'El
  • Members
  • 1 670 messages

It dose prove a lot of things not nothing, it proves that the maker has guide her, and watched over her during the campaign.

 

The maker has left this entire world and departed the golden city during the events. it's the lore, he wasn't meant to be there.

 

The Canticle of Silence is no Canticle or whatsoever, it's writing by a freaking magister who fought against Andraste, and give a whole different perspective than the Andrastian one. And it speaks of the maker way way before Andraste campaign, when she appailed to him he answered her, your timing isn't accurate.

 

It was conformed through the whole game and especially Origins, there's a whole tons of lore support his existence, it's not like the DA:I revealing of the elven gods contradict his existence, because...well them and the old gods are not actually gods, they're just powerful spirits, dragons whatever, i bet the elven ones weaker than the old gods.

As for the maker he is represented as an absolute being, making him to appear in game not likely.

 

No, it doesn't prove the Maker guided her. As I wrote many times before, if you look at the things objectively then it looked like circumstances, the only thing to contradict that is what Andraste herself said. The WoT 2 adds to what we know and tells us that darkspawn dug beneath Tevinter, diverting rivers and creating caverns, which in time caused drought and famine. Their taint also spoils the land and sips out its moisture.

I'm not saying it disproves the Maker's existence but it doesn't support it at all.

 

If the Maker departed from the Golden City before the magisters stepped inside then it means he didn't cast them back with anger etc.

The fact that Corypheus says the throne of gods was empty contradicts what we know from the Chant of Light.

 

It is a canticle, even if you don't approve of who wrote it or the Chantry doesn't. I find the Dissonant Verses far more interesting then the rest, the Canticle of Silence 3 was written by Hessarian who claims to have heard the Maker's voice when he struck Andraste with his sword, just because he was an enemy one point doesn't mean his word is not to be trusted, especially since he brought the Chantry to Tevinter afterwards. That part of the Chant of Light is in the book for a reason, different perspectives is a good thing when you try to view a topic in an objective manner.

I'm aware that the Canticle of Silence speaks of a time before Andraste, I don't understand what it has to do with what I wrote? I brought it as an example for why I find it unlikely he would just decide to destroy the empire. 

 

Just because the world must have been created, the Maker exists? Who decided there has to be a god who created this world? Unless you have actual proof from the game he exists I don't see how your case is valid.

 

Yes, Solas says the Elven Pantheon were no gods, the Old Gods are most likely not real gods as well since a god is an entity who is far more than just really powerful. Why does it matter if the Elven Pantheon are weaker than the Old Gods? There are speculations they are the same, or that the Old Gods are The Forgotten Ones, etc., it has little to do with this debate.


  • Drasanil et Dirthamen aiment ceci

#59
Master Warder Z_

Master Warder Z_
  • Members
  • 19 819 messages

(which are catastrophic casualty figures)


Tevinter had worse.

For the immediate future they had no resistance against Andraste, the capital simply waiting there to be claimed.

It was the final push.

#60
Guest_StreetMagic_*

Guest_StreetMagic_*
  • Guests

If the Maker exists, he still doesn't give a ****. That's all I really need to know about him. Everything else can be debated a thousand ways.

 

He lets not only the blights happen, but even dumb stories like Inquisition. I COULD believe in this god, but at the same time, it doesn't matter either. At best, he's standing back laughing his ass off.

 

Now I'm left wondering how you solve any problems the normal way... the gods won't help. But how do I do it without causing too much damage myself. All I can believe in in "this world". But yet they gave me a character that ruins it, if indirectly.



#61
Itkovian

Itkovian
  • Members
  • 970 messages

I COULD believe in this god, but at the same time, it doesn't matter either. At best, he's standing back laughing his ass off.

 

Actually, the Maker not intervening is precisely part of Chantry dogma: after Andraste was burned at the stake the Maker turned his back on the world, and will only turn back should the whole world sing the Chant.

 

Of course, that's wonderfully convenient for a religious meme ("Convert everyone or God will never come back!"), but the fact remains that the Maker not interfering is precisely what the Chantry is all about. It's Andraste, who now sits at the Maker's side, who gets to play an active part (just like the Inquisitor is the Herald of Andraste, and not of the Maker).


  • Shari'El aime ceci

#62
Shari'El

Shari'El
  • Members
  • 1 670 messages

Tevinter had worse.

For the immediate future they had no resistance against Andraste, the capital simply waiting there to be claimed.

It was the final push.

 

The capital didn't wait to be claimed, they closed Minrathous' gates and Andraste had to lay a siege over it.

Siege usually works in benefit of the defenders, and, as Drasanil said - 66% of the Alamarri were wiped out.

By the Canticle of Apotheosis 2 Minrathous still had enough archers to create a "storm of arrows" and down a hundred of elves.

 

The Liberator [assumed Shartan] drew the blade at his side

And charged the pyre, the freedom of the Prophet before his eyes,

But from the legion came a storm of arrows

Blacker than night. And the disciple who had fought side by side

With the Lady fell, along with a hundred of his People

And among the Alamarri ten thousand swords fell to the ground in a chorus of defeat.

 

Actually, the Maker not intervening is precisely part of Chantry dogma: after Andraste was burned at the stake the Maker turned his back on the world, and will only turn back should the whole world sing the Chant.

 

Of course, that's wonderfully convenient for a religious meme ("Convert everyone or God will never come back!"), but the fact remains that the Maker not interfering is precisely what the Chantry is all about. It's Andraste, who now sits at the Maker's side, who gets to play an active part (just like the Inquisitor is the Herald of Andraste, and not of the Maker).

 

It's kind of interesting, it seems the Maker not intervening is a pattern that existed even before Thedas forgot his name, at least if you believe the Chant of Light.

It's kind of long so I'll quote the relevant parts, but be aware - it is still veryyyy long.

 

(2) Antoridus demanded victory, so his many Oracles

Consulted the stars and drank the blood of unclean beasts [most likely wyverns],

Seeking counsel from the Maker that they might deliver

To their king the lands of the Inghirsh people.

And the Maker gave them signs and portents

That no victory was theirs to claim.

 

(3) But among the king's Oracles was one, Thalsian, who sought counsel

Not from the Maker of the World, but from a demon of the Fade.

And her returned to his king with its tidings.

 

(4) If Antoridus would make burned offerings of oxen and horses

And swear that he would follow the Maker no more,

The demon would grant him the lands of all the Inghirsh people.

So Antoridus sought the best oxen and horses

And made up burned offerings to the demon. And he turned his back

Upon the Maker of the World.

 

(5) So did the demon gift to Antoridus victory

Over the mighty Inghirsh, and they who had held forth

Against ten thousands spears were laid low.

And their people were made chattel, and their lands claimed

In the name of Neromenian.

 

[Antoridus conquered the Inghirsh and decides to wage war against Planasene]

 

(13) On the eve of battle, the armies of Antoridus raised their voices

In praise to their demon gods for the victory to come,

While the armies of the Damertes [the king of Planasene] called out in supplication to the Maker.

No darkness could hide the fears of Planasene,

No stars could outshine the sureness of Neromenian.

 

[Planasene is overwhelmed by the army of Antoridus and a lot of blood was shed]

 

(18) The righteous stood before the armies

As a boulder stands before a tide:

Unshaken, rooted there by the Maker's hand.

And the demon's soldiers broke upon their shields

As a wave breaks upon the shore.

 

[King Damertes' army dies in hundreds]

 

(20) In the deep hours of the night, King Damertes sought

Counsel from his sages, for he knew

His army could not withstand another day against the dragons' children.

And the wisest sages of Planasene consulted the stars

And found nothing.

 

[King Damertes turns to a demon to ask for strength and curses the Maker's name]

 

(23) And as the sun rose upon the fields of Planasene,

The armies of Antoridus fell to the ground

Afflicted with the boils and racked with pain.

And they cried out in fear, and fled back to their own lands.

And from that day forth, the Maker's name was spoken no more

In the lands of the sacred Pnemoix.

 

So while there is mention of the Maker's guiding hand in the 18th verse, he was gone by the 20th verse.

It's not very obvious whether his assumed support helped the Planasene but if he did indeed support them it means he is weaker than the demons [/Old Gods], either way he didn't answer them when they searched the stars (which is shown in the 2nd verse to be a legit way of communicating with the Maker).


  • Drasanil et Dirthamen aiment ceci

#63
Reznore57

Reznore57
  • Members
  • 6 144 messages

The only really fishy thing going on with Andraste...well it's not her directly ...is a vision Drakon got from her.

He saw what could be Titans waking up .(He could have knows about  ancient dwarven lore ,but it seems unlikely)

And some scene really close to what happened in Haven with the Breach.

 

Now I've read somewhere that past and future have no meaning in the Fade , and In Hushed Whisper is also a case of the fade used to mess up time.

So  possible some spirits could get information about the future and share it with mortals.

 

Still , it's creepy.



#64
Shari'El

Shari'El
  • Members
  • 1 670 messages

The only really fishy thing going on with Andraste...well it's not her directly ...is a vision Drakon got from her.

He saw what could be Titans waking up .(He could have knows about  ancient dwarven lore ,but it seems unlikely)

And some scene really close to what happened in Haven with the Breach.

 

Now I've read somewhere that past and future have no meaning in the Fade , and In Hushed Whisper is also a case of the fade used to mess up time.

So  possible some spirits could get information about the future and share it with mortals.

 

Still , it's creepy.

 

Yeah I saw that, the Canticle of Exaltations, it is said somniari can see the future because Fade spirits are timeless.

It's a pretty cool concept.

Drakon is no Dreamer, but it was said a few can still see the future aside from Dreamers.

Who knows, perhaps some Dreamer met Drakon in his dream and masked himself as Andraste, that could be pretty interesting! I tend to blame Solas for everything, so if that's a theory I'll just blame Solas here as well :P



#65
BansheeOwnage

BansheeOwnage
  • Members
  • 11 273 messages

Andraste was showing signs of being a Dreamer.  The section in WoTv2 about Feynriel describes how he would "freeze", it sounds similar to Andraste's symptoms.  Everything is pointing towards Andraste being a mage.

I'd love for the Tevinters to be right about that. I'd much rather she had been influenced by something in the fade from being a Dreamer and/or to an elven god than the Maker.



#66
Master Warder Z_

Master Warder Z_
  • Members
  • 19 819 messages

Of course you would, Maker forbid something be holy in manner rather then mystical.

 

*snorts* These forums.



#67
Illegitimus

Illegitimus
  • Members
  • 1 245 messages

The Maker kindled the sun's flame, scorching the land. Their crops failed, and their armies could not march. Then He opened the heavens and bade the waters flow, and washed away their filth.

 

That's beyond any known Mage's ability bro.

 

It's one thing to influence the world via restorative magic to revitalize a deadened patch of earth, its another to cause a drought and then a flood, as far as I know there isn't any magic that directly ties into manipulation of the heavens.

 

So I personally doubt Andraste was pulling a Ukojizai no Jutsu

 

Well you know some things just happen for "natural" reasons.  I have always surmised that the Empire was weakened by a series of catastrophes that happened because sooner or later there's gonna be a bunch of catastrophes and this vulnerability caused the invaders and rebels to see an opportunity when it was right before them.  If Andraste was a mage though she'd probably be a phenomenal powerhouse since she and those dissident mages who followed her were doubtless considerably outnumbered by the Empire's mages.  


  • Shari'El aime ceci

#68
Master Warder Z_

Master Warder Z_
  • Members
  • 19 819 messages

If Andraste was a mage though she'd probably be a phenomenal powerhouse

 

Why assume that?



#69
Shari'El

Shari'El
  • Members
  • 1 670 messages

Of course you would, Maker forbid something be holy in manner rather then mystical.

 

*snorts* These forums.

 

Although this comment isn't directed to me (I think) I feel compelled to respond, your comment is kind of disrespectful.

Please sustain from doing that, every opinion is valid, it's not nice to dismiss other people's opinions.

I personally agree with that, it would be cooler for Andraste to be influenced by something from the Fade since I think it makes for a better story.



#70
Master Warder Z_

Master Warder Z_
  • Members
  • 19 819 messages

I give no respect nor disrespect besides where it is due, casual dismissal of ideas is hardly either. In fact that hardly to my eye even warranted a response its another "Oh I dislike the idea of a religion being actually based upon reality."  Stance...very original here.

 

In truth I replied more because that stance is starting to grate the nerves more then anything else because its so common, but that's the fad these days I guess: hate religion, hate the idea of it, dislike the belief it could be real, cast doubt and suspicion upon it.

 

Although I will point out the idea that all opinions are valid is ludicrous. I have encountered those who believe the most baseless, tasteless, inane things upon these boards, lack of respect for their position is often a forgone conclusion.

 

Honestly its like asking me to take ancient alien theorists seriously.



#71
BansheeOwnage

BansheeOwnage
  • Members
  • 11 273 messages

Of course you would, Maker forbid something be holy in manner rather then mystical.

 

*snorts* These forums.

There's no need to insult me just because I think the story would be better one way and not another. I wasn't insulting anyone myself, after all.

 

Although this comment isn't directed to me (I think) I feel compelled to respond, your comment is kind of disrespectful.

Please sustain from doing that, every opinion is valid, it's not nice to dismiss other people's opinions.

I personally agree with that, it would be cooler for Andraste to be influenced by something from the Fade since I think it makes for a better story.

Thanks. :)



#72
Master Warder Z_

Master Warder Z_
  • Members
  • 19 819 messages

There's no need to insult me

 

Please point where I did so boyo.

 

I'd be positively intrigued, I expressed disdain for the position, there was no personal attack.

 

Feel free to prove me wrong though.



#73
BansheeOwnage

BansheeOwnage
  • Members
  • 11 273 messages

I give no respect nor disrespect besides where it is due, casual dismissal of ideas is hardly either. In fact that hardly to my eye even warranted a response its another "Oh I dislike the idea of a religion being actually based upon reality."  Stance...very original here.

 

In truth I replied more because that stance is starting to grate the nerves more then anything else because its so common, but that's the fad these days I guess: hate religion, hate the idea of it, dislike the belief it could be real, cast doubt and suspicion upon it.

 

Although I will point out the idea that all opinions are valid is ludicrous. I have encountered those who believe the most baseless, tasteless, inane things upon these boards, lack of respect for their position is often a forgone conclusion.

 

Honestly its like asking me to take ancient alien theorists seriously.

You're assuming a lot just from me saying I'd like the Dragon Age backstory more if Andraste wasn't guided by something divine. Please don't assume my real life opinions, and let's not start a debate about real life religion, please. Also, I wasn't trying to be original. Why must my opinion be original? Why mustn't it overlap with other people's opinions?



#74
BansheeOwnage

BansheeOwnage
  • Members
  • 11 273 messages

Please point where I did so boyo.

 

I'd be positively intrigued, I expressed disdain for the position, there was no personal attack.

 

Feel free to prove me wrong though.

Generally speaking snorting at someone is considered insulting. Besides, your tone was enough. You don't have to use ad hominem attacks to be insulting.



#75
Master Warder Z_

Master Warder Z_
  • Members
  • 19 819 messages

I'd disagree given I explained my motivation for it, but believe what you want-it doesn't make it anymore accurate.

 

:)

 

I do believe this conversation has reached its conclusion.