180 réponses à ce sujet

[Linkenski]

I think one thing people sometimes forget is that making a sequel is not just taking the previous game and adding things to it. Almost every Bioware game is made from scratch, with the exception of Mass Effect 3 which simply tweaked things from ME2 but still ended up playing distinct.

But the problem is, and this goes for our beloved CDPR too, that they have to make every game, every level, story and etc. from the ground up and at some point you've raised the bar so high that you're gonna realize afterwards that you've created impossible to reach expectations.

However, I think with DA2 and DAI, the problem is still their focus and how they almost don't want to be like DAO which was a formula people liked. The result? First one was generally disliked, especially by the mainstream. DAI? Kind of middling, but the more time passes the more it seems to gather negative attention.

Personally I think it's as clear as day that the move from the previous director with DAO to Mike is when they started moving away from what made their games truly special and likeable. Same can't be said about Mass Effect yet, but I just fear that, that series will lose its focus under the rule of Mac, too. He did quite a lot of damage to it (as far as I'm concerned they ruined the series already) just as lead writer, but now he's in charge of all creative aspects.

I just question how decisions are made within upper ranks of Bioware. Who is it that see what these people made as promotion material? I don't think Mike ever ruined anything, but he's not really a good writer or super creative, but with Mac it might just be a downright catastrophical change of seat.

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

You can't argue with that type of people. It's best you put them on your ignore list.

 

That's a good point. I prefer to avoid doing that as much as possible, but I'll try it anyway.

 

 

@Moniker: I thought you would have learned from that time I sent you crawling away with your tail between your legs, that the tumblr images make you look really childish.

[Teddie Sage]

That's a good point. I prefer to avoid doing that as much as possible, but I'll try it anyway.
 
 
@Moniker: I thought you would have learned from that time I sent you crawling away with your tail between your legs, that the tumblr images make you look really childish.

Like I said, this dude just likes pissing off people by spamming. Don't play his game.

[bondari reloads.]

Their "worst" writer's work is still better than what passes as writing in most games these days. And there were quite a few cringeworthy parts in DAO too.

BW is the company that brought us Hespith's song and the Chant of Light as well as the infamous "I wanna be a dragon" line and Zevran's sex poetry.
It's the way of things.

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

Like I said, this dude just likes pissing off people by spamming. Don't play his game.

 

Yeah, that's enough out of me. Don't want to derail the thread again. Sorry, OP!

 

 

As for the thread topic, the only writer I don't want as head writer--so far--has already been made the new head writer. I've already expressed who it is and why I feel that way in another thread, so I don't think I'll need to repeat it here. I know Gaider will be back eventually, but I'd like him back as head writer before DA4 is in serious production.

[Linkenski]

Their "worst" writer's work is still better than what passes as writing in most games these days. And there were quite a few cringeworthy parts in DAO too.

BW is the company that brought us Hespith's song and the Chant of Light as well as the infamous "I wanna be a dragon" line and Zevran's sex poetry.
It's the way of things.

With some of the stuff from ME3 or DA:I though, I'm starting to doubt this claim. Sure, there's a lot of AAA titles that are REALLY bad and I'd never touch them with a barge-pole (such includes the Just Causes, the Resident Evils, Battlefield etc.) but some of the dialogue in DA:I and ME3 especially stood out to me because it was unusually vague and cringeworthy in a way I never felt was the same amount in ME2 or DA:O... maybe DA2, but I haven't played it in a long time.

 

In terms of plot though... sure, they are still a bit above most I guess, but my point with this topic was more than just writing though. We're talking about writers (possibly below average ones) who have to control the general direction of the entire game, and I think, since DA2 and DA:I there's been a lot less respect towards lore and realism within the game's design. You know, from Combat, to cinematics to other gameplay features, stuff like how enemies die doesn't give a damn about lore and feels too video-gamey.

 

Compare it to Witcher 3 (yeah rolleyes everybody, it's this again!) where for instance, you light or turn off torches because your main character has a magic spell called "Igni" and he actually uses that for turning on or off lights in the game. In DA:I this mechanic is there too, but you just turn on torches from nothing. In Witcher you have a horse, it even has a name and it makes sense because it's even a "character" from the books. In DA:I you have a horse but your party disappears while you ride it. When you kill enemies, they explode and disintigrate in flashy animations and particle effects, and it also happens when you just use a sword. In Witcher 3 they just die.

 

I can go on and on, but I feel like for every gameplay feature for Witcher 3, some creative leads must've come in and said "keep it realistic to the Witcher vibe and lore" whereas Mike just let DA:I ship with totally insane effects that look "cool".

 

It's a stylistic choice, one probably given the thumbs up by a creative director. I'm just saying, if Bioware had better creative directors I think their games would feel more focused and captivating. I have a hard time believing in the world of DA:I because it feels very empty and inorganic... maybe a start would've been to make the combat feel more organic, and just keep going in that direction.

 

If you think these are nitpicks, remember the nitpicky subjects are the fragments that are part of the whole, and that whole is your lasting impression. DA:I did not have that lasting impression I wanted it to have.

[berelinde]

Fact: Taste is subjective.

Opinion: (Un)Deserving people were promoted.

 

It's amazing how many people confuse the two.

 

Yes, if I were lead writer, I would have done a few things differently, but that doesn't mean the game would have been better because of it. On the whole, I am satisfied with both the writing and the creative choices in Inquisition.

[In Exile]

I think one thing people sometimes forget is that making a sequel is not just taking the previous game and adding things to it. Almost every Bioware game is made from scratch, with the exception of Mass Effect 3 which simply tweaked things from ME2 but still ended up playing distinct.

But the problem is, and this goes for our beloved CDPR too, that they have to make every game, every level, story and etc. from the ground up and at some point you've raised the bar so high that you're gonna realize afterwards that you've created impossible to reach expectations.

However, I think with DA2 and DAI, the problem is still their focus and how they almost don't want to be like DAO which was a formula people liked. The result? First one was generally disliked, especially by the mainstream. DAI? Kind of middling, but the more time passes the more it seems to gather negative attention.

Personally I think it's as clear as day that the move from the previous director with DAO to Mike is when they started moving away from what made their games truly special and likeable. Same can't be said about Mass Effect yet, but I just fear that, that series will lose its focus under the rule of Mac, too. He did quite a lot of damage to it (as far as I'm concerned they ruined the series already) just as lead writer, but now he's in charge of all creative aspects.

I just question how decisions are made within upper ranks of Bioware. Who is it that see what these people made as promotion material? I don't think Mike ever ruined anything, but he's not really a good writer or super creative, but with Mac it might just be a downright catastrophical change of seat.

Bioware moved away from DAO long before DAO was even released. People need to understand this is a game that was conceived around the time KoTOR was being released and designed to ape the success of that game. Yet while DAO struggled to get off the ground and went through a number of conceptual and structural changes (not that anyone remembers concepts like the personal nemesis), Bioware released JE (to less success, despite being their IMO best written game) and ME (which was another success ala KoTOR).

After ME Bioware wanted to make ME-like games. DAO wasn't seen (internally) as the kind of game that would make it big. EA marketed it like a mix of Oblivion and Diablo. They held on to the PC release for months while Bioware tried to get the console port working well (enough to release).

By the time a decision was made to release DA2 with a design closer in kind to ME the company had almost certainly moved on from DAO. We know this because they've later confirmed they talked about converting DAO to a game with PC VO very late in the release cycle.

I get the narrative people have. But it doesn't have a basis in reality. DAO was designed to be like KoTOR. And Bioware stopped making that type of game while DAO took its obscene amount of time to get released.

[In Exile]

With some of the stuff from ME3 or DA:I though, I'm starting to doubt this claim. Sure, there's a lot of AAA titles that are REALLY bad and I'd never touch them with a barge-pole (such includes the Just Causes, the Resident Evils, Battlefield etc.) but some of the dialogue in DA:I and ME3 especially stood out to me because it was unusually vague and cringeworthy in a way I never felt was the same amount in ME2 or DA:O... maybe DA2, but I haven't played it in a long time.

In terms of plot though... sure, they are still a bit above most I guess, but my point with this topic was more than just writing though. We're talking about writers (possibly below average ones) who have to control the general direction of the entire game, and I think, since DA2 and DA:I there's been a lot less respect towards lore and realism within the game's design. You know, from Combat, to cinematics to other gameplay features, stuff like how enemies die doesn't give a damn about lore and feels too video-gamey.

Compare it to Witcher 3 (yeah rolleyes everybody, it's this again!) where for instance, you light or turn off torches because your main character has a magic spell called "Igni" and he actually uses that for turning on or off lights in the game. In DA:I this mechanic is there too, but you just turn on torches from nothing. In Witcher you have a horse, it even has a name and it makes sense because it's even a "character" from the books. In DA:I you have a horse but your party disappears while you ride it. When you kill enemies, they explode and disintigrate in flashy animations and particle effects, and it also happens when you just use a sword. In Witcher 3 they just die.

I can go on and on, but I feel like for every gameplay feature for Witcher 3, some creative leads must've come in and said "keep it realistic to the Witcher vibe and lore" whereas Mike just let DA:I ship with totally insane effects that look "cool".

It's a stylistic choice, one probably given the thumbs up by a creative director. I'm just saying, if Bioware had better creative directors I think their games would feel more focused and captivating. I have a hard time believing in the world of DA:I because it feels very empty and inorganic... maybe a start would've been to make the combat feel more organic, and just keep going in that direction.

If you think these are nitpicks, remember the nitpicky subjects are the fragments that are part of the whole, and that whole is your lasting impression. DA:I did not have that lasting impression I wanted it to have.

You're not wrong, but you're missing something here. The lore in Bioware's own IPs - and that includes DAO and ME1 - was made up for the purpose of a rule of cool just as much as the lore in ME2 and DA2/DAI. The only difference is that these games came first. That's it.

The best ME example is the total nonsense that is biotics (otherwise known as Not The Force). DAOs entire spell trees are the lore breaking rule of cool.

[Just My Moniker]

That's a good point. I prefer to avoid doing that as much as possible, but I'll try it anyway.

 

 

@Moniker: I thought you would have learned from that time I sent you crawling away with your tail between your legs, that the tumblr images make you look really childish.

 

[Zazzerka]

This is why you don't have a boyfriend, Tomoko.

[Murdan]

I'm not sure if there was a problem with writers. 

 

I think it was their assignment:

From Primaguide: "Mark Darrah, said to me: “I want the next Dragon Age to be somewhere between 20 and 200 hours. Get on that.” What he meant was that he wanted a game that would scale, that you could play the way you wanted to. "

 

I see the problem with Bioware always having a strong main story - I think it is about 50% of content of their games. The rest were always somehow easy side quests, companion quests and a bit of collectibles, but they were on the way to the main quest, so they weren't tedious to find. 

 

But if they were told to make content for 20 hours (main quest+zone quests) and 180 hours of any other content, by enlarging the small dungeons into big zones, then all the side quests from previous games are not long enough and what was OK in small dungeons started to be boring in big areas. 

 

So what is possible in Elderscrolls or Witcher 3, where a main quest is maybe 1/10 of all the game content equal to any other side quests in the game, seems to be a bit hard to make in DA concept. 

 

I'm not sure what should change, but I wouldn't blame writing quality, because it seems to me that they did what Bioware always does. Basically they just added larger zones to explore. 

 

But if they would want to have 20-200hours content, then the main story would have to be less important and all side quests would have to be the same level. But would that still be DA?

 

What I see as different from DAO is the raw atmosphere. A bit of zombie like. That is something that you will not see repeated in any sequels of DA series. So I don't miss writers, I miss designers ;-)

[Linkenski]

I think the main story in Witcher 3 takes up more than a 1/10. Sure, lots and lots of padding, but almost all of it, interactive cinematics. I still don't understand why Bioware hated their own cinematic design so much that they made 1/10 of the dialogue cinematic while the rest are these static, boring almost entirely VO based conversations with free camera that isn't even aligned properly and spins around the wrong point if focus.

Speaking if which, try panning the camera around during closing a fade rift. It'll look at nothing if you turn it all the way around, which seems like a pretty big oversight.

All around DAI just made me feel like Bioware probably knew about half of the problems they'd shipped the game with, but they didn't care. Same thing goes for the grey pyjamas, to which they simply said "well, that was kind of lame" at PAX, which seems very nonchalant to me.

[bondari reloads.]

The bad camera didn't lessen the impression that the features that ultimately make up Inquisition's experience kind of lack cohesion, I agree. But that's a different issue than bad writing, unless you mean storytelling, which is far more than just words and altogether very difficult to get right.

DA2 was deemed to be too cinematic by many when it came out, yet they are now praised for doing what TW3 did years later.

That said, I don't think they promote any of their writers, they leave that to the fanbase.

Of course there are developers on par with or arguably superior to Bioware when it comes to writing, they are just few and far between. I didn't think TW2 had good writing, and Origins told a run-of-the-mill story about a tolkienesque fight against evil.

[Ariella]

Descent is mostly Bioware Austin's work, I believe.

It was. Not that anyone will listen

[thewatcheruatu]

Over time it has developed a very bad reputation (disproportionately so) for being an awful game in online gamer communities . It regularly features in "Worst games you ever played" lists (mostly of people who never played it but want to fit in). The DA2 hate train has taken on a life of its own, becoming something of a meme to the extent that DA2=bad is now a widely held belief.

 

I didn't play Dragon Age II for /years/, because everybody everywhere seemed to be so up in arms about it. I finally played it recently--loved it to death. Loved Hawke. Loved the combat. Loved the increased focus on tactics. Loved the variety of available skills and combination powers. Loved the companions. Loved the friendship/rivalry system. Loved the tight, if small-scale, narrative. Loved the framing sequence and Varric as a possibly unreliable narrator. 

 

Yes, the game has flaws, but I'll never understand the preponderance of hate heaped against it. It's just a game. 

[cdizzle2k3]

 

Then DAI forgets what DA2 did well, and here we are.

 

I honestly think that DAI was originally supposed to be with Hawke as protagonist. Everything is set up perfectly for him/her to pick up where DA2 left off. Mage/Templar war getting out of hand(which was started with Hawke's companion. DA 2 was told from Varric's POV while being interrogated by Cassandra so there are those 2 characters that already exist with Cassandra trying to locate Hawke. It would have made sense for DAI to begin with Hawke finally being caught by Cassandra, Leiliana, and company rather than a random prisoner from the temple accident. Also, Cullen and Hawke already know each other from Kirkwall, so the trust between the 2 would have made sense... Corypheus was already acquainted with Hawke with the DA 2: Legacy so it would have been set up as kind of a rematch between the 2...

 

I think they did a late change because people were disappointed with DA2, so they thought people would write off DA:I if it was marketed as a continuation of Hawke's story...  And Hawke's "cameo" in DAI seems pretty forced and ends abruptly. Why wouldn't he want to join and attempt to take care of Corypheus once and for all(if he didn't stay behind in the Fade)? Did he have some errands to run instead of saving Thedas? 

[Ariella]

Over time it has developed a very bad reputation (disproportionately so) for being an awful game in online gamer communities . It regularly features in "Worst games you ever played" lists (mostly of people who never played it but want to fit in). The DA2 hate train has taken on a life of its own, becoming something of a meme to the extent that DA2=bad is now a widely held belief.

To the point of calls for Mike Laidlaw to be fired and death threats to Jen Hepler for 'ruining' the game. BSN was a toxic soup back in the day.

 Then DAI forgets what DA2 did well, and here we are.

They didn't forget. But DA2 is tainted in so many minds that any word they were attempting anything related would have set off a storm.

With time and distance, of course, things have calmed down somewhat, but if you want to place blame, place it on the people who started the virtual lynch mobs. And they truly were lynch mobs.

[Nibten]

When you kill enemies, they explode and disintigrate in flashy animations and particle effects, and it also happens when you just use a sword. In Witcher 3 they just die.

 

I can go on and on, but I feel like for every gameplay feature for Witcher 3, some creative leads must've come in and said "keep it realistic to the Witcher vibe and lore" whereas Mike just let DA:I ship with totally insane effects that look "cool".

 

 

This. So much.

I hope that I never see something like this again:

 

In my opinion, a more realistic representation of combat adds a lot of immersion.

The Witcher 3 made that almost perfect. http://www.gamesrada...l-you-expected/

[Ariella]

This. So much.
I hope that I never see something like this again:

In my opinion, a more realistic representation of combat adds a lot of immersion.
The Witcher 3 made that almost perfect.

Excuse me while I laugh myself sick. Did you guys not pay attention to the kill moves in DAO? So many people loved those things. The double sword removing the head, the jump on the chest of the ogre and stab them, jump onto the head of the dragon. All in slow motion no less.

And there's been a persistent gore switch since the very beginning.

This isn't The Witcher. It's Dragon Age, and it's been like this for awhile. Deal with it.

[Apollexander]

"One of the worst writers" was put into the position of creative director and produced the Game of the Year. How funny!

[Darkly Tranquil]

"One of the worst writers" was put into the position of creative director and produced the Game of the Year. How funny!

Sure, but look what it was up against for GotY - Bayonetta 2, Shadow of Mordor, Dark Souls 2, and Hearthstone. Nothing truly outstanding in that lot. If it came out in 2013 as original intended, it would have gotten rolled over by The Last of Us hype juggernaut just like everything else did. If it came out in 2015, it would be up against Witcher 3, Arkham Knight, MGS5, and Fallout 4; do you honestly see it beating those? Fact is, DAI won 2014 GotY because it had sod all competition; it was the best game of a dreadful year in gaming.

[Apollexander]

Sure, but look what it was up against for GotY - Bayonetta 2, Shadow of Mordor, Dark Souls 2, and Hearthstone. Nothing truly outstanding in that lot. If it came out in 2013 as original intended, it would have gotten rolled over by The Last of Us hype juggernaut just like everything else did. If it came out in 2015, it would be up against Witcher 3, Arkham Knight, MGS5, and Fallout 4; do you honestly see it beating those? Fact is, DAI won 2014 GotY because it had sod all competition; it was the best game of a dreadful year in gaming.

Ah, this again. Let me remind you that Bayonetta 2, Shadow of Mordor, Dark Souls 2 are all solid and outstanding games, though I cannot judge Hearthstone, which is more a phone-game. Please don't deny the success of these games. And the real juggernaut in 2013 is GTAV, which is phenomenal in history.

Even if you try to fade the glory of GotY 2014, DAI was still a breakthrough in Bioware history. Keep in mind that ME3 was beaten by the Walking dead, and DAO was not even a nominee of the GotY.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Excuse me while I laugh myself sick. Did you guys not pay attention to the kill moves in DAO? So many people loved those things. The double sword removing the head, the jump on the chest of the ogre and stab them, jump onto the head of the dragon. All in slow motion no less.

And there's been a persistent gore switch since the very beginning.

This isn't The Witcher. It's Dragon Age, and it's been like this for awhile. Deal with it.

 

DA2's were way, way more over the top. Kind of like everything in DA2, really.

 

In DAO, you'd lop off a guy's head. In DA2, you'd blast him into a thousand gibbering chunks with one swing. Not entirely the same thing, really.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Ah, this again. Let me remind you that Bayonetta 2, Shadow of Mordor, Dark Souls 2 are all solid and outstanding games, though I cannot judge Hearthstone, which is more a phone-game. Please don't deny the success of these games. And the real juggernaut in 2013 is GTAV, which is phenomenal in history.
Even if you try to fade the glory of GotY 2014, DAI was still a breakthrough in Bioware history. Keep in mind that ME3 was beaten by the Walking dead, and DAO was not even a nominee of the GotY.

Solid, yes, outstanding, no. Mordor was an Assassin's Creed knock off with a novel boss mechanic, Bayonetta 2 was an eccentric Japanese game exclusive to a dying system no-one cares other than Nintendo fanboys cares about, and DS2 was widely regarded as an inferior repeat of its predecessors. Hearthstone probably should have won if commercial success and popularity as a tournament and streaming game was a factor, although it is a pretty simple game from a technological standpoint. But in any case, none of them was especially noteworthy, or serve as benchmarks of game design excellence. A few years from now, people will look back and wonder why DAI won GotY, then they will look at what it was up against and see why.

Btw, TLoU won far more GotY awards than GTA5, even if GTA was the big commercial success. (Source: http://gotypicks.blo...me-of-year.html ;TLoU - 249, GTA5 - 159)