180 réponses à ce sujet

[Saphiron123]

No, they talked about what worked, what didn't and took fan feedback.

And I'm glad neither you nor the op are in charge of human resources at Bioware.

Terribly. I mean they removed cities from the game. I didn't love spending the entire game in a city with 3 or 4 outdoor recycled environments, but it's take a bloody madman to think that meant i didn't ever want another city in dragon age.

Instead we get wilderness simulator 2.0, while my advisors tell me about the important things when i get back from mining.

[Ariella]

Terribly. I mean they removed cities from the game. I didn't love spending the entire game in a city with 3 or 4 outdoor recycled environments, but it's take a bloody madman to think that meant i didn't ever want another city in dragon age.
Instead we get wilderness simulator 2.0, while my advisors tell me about the important things when i get back from mining.

Tell me how they absolutely needed a city in this?

Denerim is in DAO because it has plot value. But you aren't going to Highever or Amaranthine. The only other 'cities' you see in DAO are Redcliff (which is in DAI), Lothering, and Orzammar.

This story doesn't require a large city to function. Would more of VR been nice? Sure, but it wasn't needed to tell the story. With the exception of the Winter Palace, none of the conflicts taking place are in the cities. VR is pretty untouched except for the emotional aspect. The battles are happening in places like The Exalted Plains, where settlements are being ripped apart. Or Emprise du Lion, where bad luck, weather and red templars have reduced the area to ruin. Or Crestwood and the horrors thst lurk there.

All these areas contribute to the story. Haven, and later Skyhold act as hubs for quests. There's no real pressing need for a city which will require numerous techinal assets that could be used elsewhere.

And it's not like there have never been rpgs that have been run out of just a small village... Nope, no such thing ever happened in the history of all rpgs. Unless you count the original Ravenloft for example....

[Koneko Koji]

I actually think they missed a big opportunity by not showing more of Val Royeaux - they could have shown the impact on the people of the civil war, the unrest of the elves in the alienage, the chantry struggling with its Templars deserting, and the White Spire could have been a prime location for looting magical items or closing a rift that actually affected people and not just random wildlife.

 

The lack of bigger locations and more NPC's made the fighting feel pointless - I don't care if a few rams get startled by wandering too close to a rift. I wish we could have done the missions on the war table and delegated the fetch quests to our minions; especially with a potential return to Denerim to fight the Venetori mages alongside Alistair.... that would have been awesome, instead I had to read about it... ¬_¬

[Morroian]

I'm a Hema(historical european martial arts)-instructor. So I think I know a litten bit about whats possible with the sword.
And beside the finishing moves against fantasy creatures like the ogre or dragon, there is nothing that is completely ridiculous in DA:O. At least you couldn't let your enemies explode with a sword. Push a button and something awesome happens. Riiiiight...


I never claimed otherwise, did I?

 

https://yourlogicalf...al-to-authority

[Morroian]

Tell me how they absolutely needed a city in this?

Denerim is in DAO because it has plot value. But you aren't going to Highever or Amaranthine. The only other 'cities' you see in DAO are Redcliff (which is in DAI), Lothering, and Orzammar.

 

Val Royeaux has plot value.

[Morroian]

No, they talked about what worked, what didn't and took fan feedback.

And I'm glad neither you nor the op are in charge of human resources at Bioware.

 

They talked about what worked in DA2 as well as DAO. I have a clear memory of what they said, the implication, if not the outright statements were clear. At that stage they hadn't completely dismissed DA2.

 

As for HR its just an opinion, the DA series has headed in a sharp downward direction since Mike Laidlaw came on IMHO. They have shown a completely inability to make iterative changes building on the strengths of previous games while making improvements. They go overboard in relation to certain feedback making unreasonable changes. I actually liked DA2 but they should have built on the strengths of both DAO and DA2 for DAI and they didn't, and in hindsight the changes they made for DA2 were a reflection the inability referred to above make reasonable iterative changes. 

 

As for Mac Walters there was the ME3 ending fiasco which he was a large part of and I dislike the direction of Andromeda so much I doubt I will buy it.   

[Gwydden]

Denerim is in DAO because it has plot value. But you aren't going to Highever or Amaranthine. The only other 'cities' you see in DAO are Redcliff (which is in DAI), Lothering, and Orzammar.

Technically, Redcliffe and Lothering aren't cities. /pedantic

 

No, the story didn't 'absolutely need' a city. It didn't 'absolutely need' an interesting plot or compelling characters either. That's an unreasonable standard, imosho. But given the choice between spending my time in cities full of people and buildings and history and culture and just a whole bunch of interesting things and being in a huge empty countryside, well...

[The Hierophant]

Val Royeaux has plot value.

This. After the eluvian network was introduced in TME i was disappointed that any display or mention about the discovery's impact on the city elves was ignored beyond Briala's bit piece at WEAWH. 

[Lumix19]

They talked about what worked in DA2 as well as DAO. I have a clear memory of what they said, the implication, if not the outright statements were clear. At that stage they hadn't completely dismissed DA2.

As for HR its just an opinion, the DA series has headed in a sharp downward direction since Mike Laidlaw came on IMHO. They have shown a completely inability to make iterative changes building on the strengths of previous games while making improvements. They go overboard in relation to certain feedback making unreasonable changes. I actually liked DA2 but they should have built on the strengths of both DAO and DA2 for DAI and they didn't, and in hindsight the changes they made for DA2 were a reflection the inability referred to above make reasonable iterative changes.

As for Mac Walters there was the ME3 ending fiasco which he was a large part of and I dislike the direction of Andromeda so much I doubt I will buy it.

Why do people always hate on Mike? He was lead designer for DA:O so it's not like he's a new addition to the DA franchise.

[In Exile]

Terribly. I mean they removed cities from the game. I didn't love spending the entire game in a city with 3 or 4 outdoor recycled environments, but it's take a bloody madman to think that meant i didn't ever want another city in dragon age.

Instead we get wilderness simulator 2.0, while my advisors tell me about the important things when i get back from mining.

 

They didn't "remove" cities. Val Royeaux, though obviously not a city in the grand scale of video game design, has an area greater than the Denerim market in DA:O, and apart from some random alleys and a few houses, Denerim isn't bigger. Redcliffe v. 2 is as large as Redcliffe in DA:O, and Haven and Skyhold are easily a match for the # of areas we see in Orzammar. DA:O didn't have cities like, say, TW3 had Novigrad.

 

In fact, Skyhold is probably bigger (or at least comparable to!) than Amaranthine (!!!).

[Gwydden]

They didn't "remove" cities. Val Royeaux, though obviously not a city in the grand scale of video game design, has an area greater than the Denerim market in DA:O, and apart from some random alleys and a few houses, Denerim isn't bigger. Redcliffe v. 2 is as large as Redcliffe in DA:O, and Haven and Skyhold are easily a match for the # of areas we see in Orzammar. DA:O didn't have cities like, say, TW3 had Novigrad.

 

In fact, Skyhold is probably bigger (or at least comparable to!) than Amaranthine (!!!).

The way I see it, the problem is that if you're going to make ridiculously huge open areas, you should at least try to fill them with stuff. Cities in DAI feel small because they are easily dwarfed by the large stretches of countryside. A city has more potential to be interesting than a field, and as such going for making the former small but the latter very large is counter-intuitive.

 

Yes, there is in fact more rural than urban areas in the world. But I doubt the Hinterlands were supposed to be representative of the whole of southwestern Ferelden anymore than what we saw is supposed to represent the whole of Val Royeaux.

[In Exile]

The way I see it, the problem is that if you're going to make ridiculously huge open areas, you should at least try to fill them with stuff. Cities in DAI feel small because they are easily dwarfed by the large stretches of countryside. A city has more potential to be interesting than a field, and as such going for making the former small but the latter very large is counter-intuitive.

 

Yes, there is in fact more rural than urban areas in the world. But I doubt the Hinterlands were supposed to be representative of the whole of southwestern Ferelden anymore than what we saw is supposed to represent the whole of Val Royeaux.

 

I really completely agree with you. I absolutely loathe the wilderness. If it were up to me, RPGs would only happen in cities and ruins, never in forests, plains, or anywhere near substantial quantities of nature. My point is just that it's silly to say that DA:O has "cities", given the modular style of design and how little we see of them. If imagination is enough there, it should be enough in DA:I.

[Darkly Tranquil]

They didn't "remove" cities. Val Royeaux, though obviously not a city in the grand scale of video game design, has an area greater than the Denerim market in DA:O, and apart from some random alleys and a few houses, Denerim isn't bigger. Redcliffe v. 2 is as large as Redcliffe in DA:O, and Haven and Skyhold are easily a match for the # of areas we see in Orzammar. DA:O didn't have cities like, say, TW3 had Novigrad.

Yeah, but Origins was a generation older game and didn't make any pretensions to being an open world game, so comparing Origins to TW3 isn't a fair comparison.

This was probably Bioware's one and only chance to showcase one of the most important cities in their entire setting and they just phoned it in. What they should have done is added some reasons to go to key locations like the Grand Cathedral (for the showdown with the Grand Clerics and The Lord Seeker, for instance), the Imperial Palace (quest ties to Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts), the White Spire (potential personal quests for Vivienne and Cole). They could easily have added (and justified) a better version of Val Royeaux than the paltry excuse for a city we got.

[Murdan]

The information that Inquisition was meant to be DLC of DAII is interesting and it explains a lot. 

 

Because I think that being a boss is boring - there is almost no progress and there is not much left to do. You can sit at a wartable, getting fat... So it felt strange to make a player to become a boss of Inquisition in the first part of the game. 

If it would be DLC as it was obviously meant, then it would be 1. shorter - enough not to get bored, 2. it would be logical continuing of the previous story from Kirkwall, so you would feel it was right. 

 

So I can understand why they decided that the strongest side of the game will be insteresting landscapes/interiors. It was still too big, but the game has some qualities. 

 

Maybe as someone said - if Bioware would be left alone doing their games instead at first being forced to make DAII half comics design and after EA was harmed by bad reputation they made another game that has the opposite extreme...

 

And it is really sad if DAII caused some excellent writers to leave their posts, because the franchise is a lot about the people behind... And they did very good job in DAII.

[In Exile]

Yeah, but Origins was a generation older game and didn't make any pretensions to being an open world game, so comparing Origins to TW3 isn't a fair comparison.

This was probably Bioware's one and only chance to showcase one of the most important cities in their entire setting and they just phoned it in. What they should have done is added some reasons to go to key locations like the Grand Cathedral (for the showdown with the Grand Clerics and The Lord Seeker, for instance), the Imperial Palace (quest ties to Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts), the White Spire (potential personal quests for Vivienne and Cole). They could easily have added (and justified) a better version of Val Royeaux than the paltry excuse for a city we got.

 

It doesn't matter how old DA:O is - the "cities" are a joke. There were plenty of games on the market then that had better cities. If TW1, for example, with Vizima. AC 1 and AC2 were out by that point (in fact, AC2 was out at the same time). We had several GTA games.

 

It's one thing to say that DA:I had dissapointing "cities" (we can't even call what we saw of Val Royeaux a city). But saying DA:O did anything even worthwhile, much less better, is going too far.

 

As I said before, I loathe wilderness. I just don't think DA:O is a better, or good, example.

[Wulfram]

They didn't "remove" cities. Val Royeaux, though obviously not a city in the grand scale of video game design, has an area greater than the Denerim market in DA:O, and apart from some random alleys and a few houses, Denerim isn't bigger. Redcliffe v. 2 is as large as Redcliffe in DA:O, and Haven and Skyhold are easily a match for the # of areas we see in Orzammar. DA:O didn't have cities like, say, TW3 had Novigrad.

 

In fact, Skyhold is probably bigger (or at least comparable to!) than Amaranthine (!!!).

 

Denerim actually had stuff in it, though.  Square footage isn't really a meaningful measure.

[In Exile]

Denerim actually had stuff in it, though.  Square footage isn't really a meaningful measure.

Except that it really didn't. There were very few NPCs and scenes in Denerim, and DA:I had a generally equivalent set.

[Greetsme]

Correct me if I'm right, but there is no longer any Bioware at Bioware are there.  Those left in the building use to be caretakers, Pizza boys, EA admin, and groupies from when Bioware owned the gaff.

[Wulfram]

Except that it really didn't. There were very few NPCs and scenes in Denerim, and DA:I had a generally equivalent set.

 

Hmm

 

City Elf Origin

Arl Howe's palace (+Fort Drakon escape)

Alienage slavers

Landsmeet

Big final battle

 

Val Royeaux has nothing equivalent to any of these.  I guess its largest quest is... Sera's recruitment?  Which I think is shorter than even something basic like helping out Sergeant Kylon.  

[Das Tentakel]

Denerim actually had stuff in it, though.  Square footage isn't really a meaningful measure.

Not just that, but it was composed of multiple locations on a map that, in combination with the 'city' skyboxes, at least tried to look like a city. Sure, it couldn't stand comparison with other cRPG cities (like TW1's Vizima or Two Worlds II's Cheznaddar-Hatmandor or some of the bigger MMORPG cities) but at least it tried.

 

In the case of 'Val Royeaux', it feels like they ran out of resources for adding other locations and a 'city skybox'. Or it was a reused asset developed for the cancelled DA2 expansion or something like that...

[Ariella]

Val Royeaux has plot value.

How would Val Royeaux contribute to the plot more than it already did? The market was useful for several plot points, but what value to you get in showing huge expanses of city which have nothing to do with the story they're telling?

They talked about what worked in DA2 as well as DAO. I have a clear memory of what they said, the implication, if not the outright statements were clear. At that stage they hadn't completely dismissed DA2.
 
As for HR its just an opinion, the DA series has headed in a sharp downward direction since Mike Laidlaw came on IMHO. They have shown a completely inability to make iterative changes building on the strengths of previous games while making improvements. They go overboard in relation to certain feedback making unreasonable changes. I actually liked DA2 but they should have built on the strengths of both DAO and DA2 for DAI and they didn't, and in hindsight the changes they made for DA2 were a reflection the inability referred to above make reasonable iterative changes. 
 
As for Mac Walters there was the ME3 ending fiasco which he was a large part of and I dislike the direction of Andromeda so much I doubt I will buy it.

I happened to be here as well, and they did talk about what worked and what didn't. What fans liked and what they didn't. People complained in DAO that the color palate was too bland, combat too slow. They adjusted in DA2. Then in DA2 fans complained that the colors were too bright and the combat too anime. Despite what people think, these guys actually do pay attention. Like when people went all crazy about how Skyrim was so cool and it was going to kick DA2's butt. Of course, DA2 had been out for months by then, so it really didn't matter.

Mike was on since DAO, so will you please get over it already. And don't give me any crap about how he was a late addition. He was here, he was one of the lead designers. Period, end of story. If you don't like it, play another game, since Dragon Age doesn't seem to be to your liking.

This. After the eluvian network was introduced in TME i was disappointed that any display or mention about the discovery's impact on the city elves was ignored beyond Briala's bit piece at WEAWH.

That isn't part of THIS story. I could care less about TME, especially since I haven't read it, except for how it impacts on my story. The civil war has impact because we're traveling through those areas. Briala's shtick only kicks in at the Winter Palace. It's not as important to the story as a whole. The books and comics are nice color, but they aren't and shouldn't be a major focus in the game for the single reason that not everyone who plays the game reads the books or comics. Thus you need to spend time on exposition that would be better used elsewhere.

Technically, Redcliffe and Lothering aren't cities. /pedantic
 
No, the story didn't 'absolutely need' a city. It didn't 'absolutely need' an interesting plot or compelling characters either. That's an unreasonable standard, imosho. But given the choice between spending my time in cities full of people and buildings and history and culture and just a whole bunch of interesting things and being in a huge empty countryside, well...

Thus the 'cities'.

Unreasonable standard how? A good portion of the original Baldur's Gate actually takes place in "empty countryside" for example.

I say again, if you don't like it, there are other games you can go play. The Dragon Age team made a decision to focus on a story that spanned southern Thedas. They decided to show the effect of the Mage Templar conflict and the War of the Lions on places like the Exalted Plains because that's where people were hit the hardest. VR is pretty well removed from this, if you hadn't noticed.

There's only so much budget, and they made a choice of where to focus. Villages and crofts rather than the big cities. Again, if you don't like that, there are other games.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Hmm

City Elf Origin
Arl Howe's palace (+Fort Drakon escape)
Alienage slavers
Landsmeet
Big final battle

Val Royeaux has nothing equivalent to any of these. I guess its largest quest is... Sera's recruitment? Which I think is shorter than even something basic like helping out Sergeant Kylon.

Not to mention the Ser Landry encounter, the various scenes in the Gnawed Noble Tavern with the nobles, Gaxkang, the den of blood mages, The Pearl, the encounter with Marjolaine, the encounter with Taleisin, Alistair's sister, Wade and Herren, etc. There are a ton more scenes and events in Denerim than there are in Val Royeaux.

[In Exile]

Hmm

 

City Elf Origin

Arl Howe's palace (+Fort Drakon escape)

Alienage slavers

Landsmeet

Big final battle

 

Val Royeaux has nothing equivalent to any of these.  I guess its largest quest is... Sera's recruitment?  Which I think is shorter than even something basic like helping out Sergeant Kylon.  

 

You're counting Arl Howe's palace (a main quest), the City Elf Origin (a main quest), the Landsmeet (a main quest, with an inaccessible area) and the final battle (a main quest). Val Royeaux has lots of moments like these (except that it so happens the main quest isn't set there):

 

The showdown with the templars, including where you meet Sera, run into Fionna and get stopped by Viviene.

Calpernia's lead in for Under Her Skin.

Blackwall's entire scene in Revelations, including the prison.

Josephine's entire personal quest, including:

    Meeting her for the House of Repose.

    Meeting with a particular noble in the quest for the Du Paraquettes.

    Meeting another noble outside of her mansion.

    The conclusion, overlooking the water.

    The romance scene duel.

Cole's cafee scene.

 

So, yes, the main quest isn't set in Val Royeaux, but that's an absurd argument for the size of Denerim as a city, giving a list of inaccessible areas that the player doesn't visit except during the main quest (including the Alienage, because remember, you don't get to return until the main quest demands it).

 

There's stuff I'm missing, I'm sure. But the ultimate point is that you're wrong about the amount of content being put in there, unless you count the main quest, and then your argument isn't that Val Royeaux was too small but that the main quest wasn't set there and Bioware didn't design a huge number of areas we could never visit except when the main plot triggered it.

 

Not to mention the Ser Landry encounter, the various scenes in the Gnawed Noble Tavern with the nobles, Gaxkang, the den of blood mages, The Pearl, the encounter with Marjolaine, the encounter with Taleisin, Alistair's sister, Wade and Herren, etc. There are a ton more scenes and events in Denerim than there are in Val Royeaux.

 

All of the above scenes I've listed - from memory, mind you - count. But again, the main quest isn't set in Denerim. It's beyond absurd to count those scenes.

[Ariella]

And we are talking about one of the lead writers on Jade Empire. A game more than a few people poke Bioware about making a sequel...

If you want to make legitamate criticism, fine, but this didn't start as legitimate criticism. It started as an attack. There are a lot of other games in the world if Dragon Age is no longer to your taste.