180 réponses à ce sujet

[Paul E Dangerously]

And we are talking about one of the lead writers on Jade Empire. A game more than a few people poke Bioware about making a sequel...

If you want to make legitamate criticism, fine, but this didn't start as legitimate criticism. It started as an attack. There are a lot of other games in the world if Dragon Age is no longer to your taste.

 

To be fair, the writing on Jade Empire is much simpler. It's effectively a pastiche of kung-fu movies. It doesn't need to have the depth something like Dragon Age should. Origins wasn't anything groundbreaking, but it was solid and it did what it did well. DA2 was rushed, a lot of the story didn't make sense, and a lot of player agency got lost on the cutting floor with damn near everything else. But it had it's good points (Act 2, Legacy). DAI's just sort of there. It doesn't function as an RPG as well as Origins nor does it match the story, and it doesn't do the human element as well as DA2. It's just sort of "meh".

 

And yes, I want a sequel to JE. It's one of the things where Bioware's "let's make everything an action game" wouldn't muck it up, because JE is an action game. So it's a win-win situation.

[Wulfram]

@In Exile

Maybe we're talking at cross purposes, but I just don't see any reason to exclude the main quest. Denerim has a whole bunch more stuff happening than Val Royeaux, which help it feel more than a glorified shopping mall. The main quest is part of it, particularly since it tends to help tie things into the various side quests. And helps make visits to it feel worthwhile, rather than being a couple of conversations that aren't really worth the loading screen - or to put in more in character, worth the lengthy journey to Val Royeaux.

[Nibten]

https://yourlogicalf...al-to-authority

 

This doesn't make much sense. I'm not relying to some authority, but to my own experience, since it was claimed that I have none.

 

Not to mention the Ser Landry encounter, the various scenes in the Gnawed Noble Tavern with the nobles, Gaxkang, the den of blood mages, The Pearl, the encounter with Marjolaine, the encounter with Taleisin, Alistair's sister, Wade and Herren, etc. There are a ton more scenes and events in Denerim than there are in Val Royeaux.

 

Not only the number of events but also the actual design makes a huge difference between Denerim and Val Royeaux. Denerim has multiple districs, like the market place, the elven slums, side streets for quests, etc. it appears to be a large city.

While Val Royeax just has it's market place. And it's placed on some kind of hill surrounded by water so you don't even get the illusion of being in a large city.

 

 

[Morroian]

Why do people always hate on Mike? He was lead designer for DA:O so it's not like he's a new addition to the DA franchise.

 

He was brought on board after the PC version was finished to lead the console port. The actual lead designer Brent Knowles left (google for his reasons for leaving its quite enlightening in hindsight) and Mike was given charge of the whole shebang.

 

And we are talking about one of the lead writers on Jade Empire. A game more than a few people poke Bioware about making a sequel...

If you want to make legitamate criticism, fine, but this didn't start as legitimate criticism. It started as an attack. There are a lot of other games in the world if Dragon Age is no longer to your taste.

 

That part of the OP I don't necessarily agree with I'm sure Mike is fine as a writer.

[Ariella]

He was brought on board after the PC version was finished to lead the console port. The actual lead designer Brent Knowles left (google for his reasons for leaving its quite enlightening in hindsight) and Mike was given charge of the whole shebang.
 

 
That part of the OP I don't necessarily agree with I'm sure Mike is fine as a writer.

I'm well aware of Knowles, who hasn't done a blessed thing in the industry since leaving Bioware.

It looks like he's done short story work and some articles but nothing in the gaming industry proper. I wish everybody who invoked the name of Saint Brent would consider that for a minute.

Mike has been here, been involved and tried to do right by the fans, at times under extreme pressure. It's easy for someone to say 'oh that's not the way I would have done it' when he's not in the hot seat.

I'm surprised Mike stayed considering the crap he got, excepting the fact that leaving would be seen as surrender.

As I said, if people don't like the direction the series is going, there are other games. The way of the world.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Mike has been here, been involved and tried to do right by the fans, at times under extreme pressure. It's easy for someone to say 'oh that's not the way I would have done it' when he's not in the hot seat.

I'm surprised Mike stayed considering the crap he got, excepting the fact that leaving would be seen as surrender.

As I said, if people don't like the direction the series is going, there are other games. The way of the world.

I'm sorry, but the "But they tried!" defense only goes so far. Everyone tries. If you release a game that's subpar - which some people do see DA2 and/or DAI as, that's what you'll be judged on. Especially when you work for a studio with a reputation like Bioware had at one point, with the resources of an EA behind it.

[Morroian]

I'm well aware of Knowles, who hasn't done a blessed thing in the industry since leaving Bioware.

It looks like he's done short story work and some articles but nothing in the gaming industry proper. I wish everybody who invoked the name of Saint Brent would consider that for a minute.

 

er he specifically left the industry after Bioware. Its not that he's tried and failed elsewhere.

[Darkly Tranquil]

er he specifically left the industry after Bioware. Its not that he's tried and failed elsewhere.

And he left because he could see the direction Bioware was heading and thought it was bad. And he was right.

[Lumix19]

To be fair, the writing on Jade Empire is much simpler. It's effectively a pastiche of kung-fu movies. It doesn't need to have the depth something like Dragon Age should. Origins wasn't anything groundbreaking, but it was solid and it did what it did well. DA2 was rushed, a lot of the story didn't make sense, and a lot of player agency got lost on the cutting floor with damn near everything else. But it had it's good points (Act 2, Legacy). DAI's just sort of there. It doesn't function as an RPG as well as Origins nor does it match the story, and it doesn't do the human element as well as DA2. It's just sort of "meh".

And yes, I want a sequel to JE. It's one of the things where Bioware's "let's make everything an action game" wouldn't muck it up, because JE is an action game. So it's a win-win situation.

I don't think JE is that much simpler. There's an interesting amount of potential with regards to the lore if you look at it. Relegating it to the realms of "an action game" is doing it a disservice if you ask me. And for all that it reminded me of DAO at least JE had a nice twist whereas DAO can be considered somewhat generic.

[Paul E Dangerously]

I don't think JE is that much simpler. There's an interesting amount of potential with regards to the lore if you look at it. Relegating it to the realms of "an action game" is doing it a disservice if you ask me. And for all that it reminded me of DAO at least JE had a nice twist whereas DAO can be considered somewhat generic.

 

Really, you shouldn't take "simple" to mean "bad". Some people may find that Bioware's a bit too cliche driven, but I tend to think they're best when they stick with what they're good at. Their best plots aren't anything out of the ordinary, but they're surrounded with enough that it generally doesn't matter. Interesting companions? Check. A plot that keeps things moving and shows you the world? Check. Deep enough lore that you want to dive more into it but not enough that it's off-putting? Check.

 

When I said "an action game" I generally meant in terms of gameplay. Bioware's got a habit of starting things out as an RPG and then sliding as things progress in order to try to appeal to mainstream gamers. ME1 to it's sequels and DAO to it's sequels. ME had a bit less of a jump, granted, but DA went from "tactical RPG" to "hack and slash" pretty damn fast. JE doesn't really have any such conflict like that. It could probably use a bit more complexity, really, but Jade Empire had a really, really good base to start from.

 

That's really why I've been boggled that there isn't a second one. You don't have to drastically simplify it to try to appeal to the masses like they have Dragon Age. They can even fit the human protagonist they love without any real complaints. There aren't a ton of alien races or fantasy ones that would make better leads like in ME or DA.

[correctamundo]

And he left because he could see the direction Bioware was heading and thought it was bad. And he was right.

 

Nope, he didn't leave because he thought it was "bad". I qoute Knowles "I was fairly certain Dragon Age would transition towards more of a Mass Effect experience, which while enjoyable is not the type of role-playing game I play."

 

Notice the enjoyable part.

[Das Tentakel]

That's really why I've been boggled that there isn't a second one. You don't have to drastically simplify it to try to appeal to the masses like they have Dragon Age. They can even fit the human protagonist they love without any real complaints. There aren't a ton of alien races or fantasy ones that would make better leads like in ME or DA.

If I remember correctly, it didn't sell that well. Moreover, as an Xbox exclusive there was probably quite a bit of Microsoft money involved (just as with ME). Doing a second one while the first one wasn't a commercial success and without Microsoft behind their back...

I agree that Jade Empire - and the wuxia setup - are a pretty good fit for an action RPG. Moreover, while JE was pretty 'generic' (meaning a grab bag of kung fu movies - particularly the ones with strong fantasy and some mild horror elements like Chinese Ghost Story etc. - plus some vaguely Japanese stuff) it was pretty unique among western RPG’s.

To be honest, the gameworld felt pretty ‘light’, meaning not that particularly extensive or deep, a ‘one-off’ game and setting. It may be that Bio, if they ever tried a second game, would have to start almost from the ground up. Not sure if that’s worth the financial risk.

Having said that, I would totally buy JE2 provided it's a decent enough game by itself.

[Murdan]

I happened to be here as well, and they did talk about what worked and what didn't. What fans liked and what they didn't. People complained in DAO that the color palate was too bland, combat too slow. They adjusted in DA2. Then in DA2 fans complained that the colors were too bright and the combat too anime. Despite what people think, these guys actually do pay attention. Like when people went all crazy about how Skyrim was so cool and it was going to kick DA2's butt. Of course, DA2 had been out for months by then, so it really didn't matter.
 

 

 

I'm curious who was complaining about bland colors? I thought it was because of EA. But if you are saying it was Bioware who decided to listen to such complains, then they cannot tell what is actually good about a game they created. Design of DAO was great because it was connection of morbidity and something gentle. It was one of the reasons why DAO was successful even though players wouldn't focus on that. It added big immersion into the story together with music. 

And debacle of DAII was because of that has changed...

 

I would bet according to what someone said about Brent Knowles, that it was employees from another branch, not fans... 

[Das Tentakel]

I'm curious who was complaining about bland colors? I thought it was because of EA. But if you are saying it was Bioware who decided to listen to such complains, then they cannot tell what is actually good about a game they created. Design of DAO was great because it was connection of morbidity and something gentle. It was one of the reasons why DAO was successful even though players wouldn't focus on that. It added big immersion into the story together with music.
And debacle of DAII was because of that has changed...

I would bet according to what someone said about Brent Knowles, that it was employees from another branch, not fans...

‘Bland’ may not be the right description, but the colours in DA:O were sometimes a bit weird. They were a bit washed-out in the ‘normal’ outside sections, and could become blue-ish, purple-ish or orange-brownish in the interior sections. The outside sections also tended to be rather gloomy-looking.

It was all in the pursuit of creating a certain mood; I think they were at least partly successful in this, but not everybody liked it and frankly, I thought much of it was boring as well. It wasn’t just the colours, it was also the overall visual design which was in many ways a mix of the style of many of the D&D 3.0 illustrations and influences from Jackson’s LotR movies.
(not that Jackson's LotR is a bad influence, but DA:O was in this respect a washed-out poor second cousin thrice removed of LotR..)

I think they were quite right in wanting to change the visuals in DA2, unfortunately that one ended up half-baked (or fifth-baked, in my personal opinion).

[In Exile]

@In Exile

Maybe we're talking at cross purposes, but I just don't see any reason to exclude the main quest. Denerim has a whole bunch more stuff happening than Val Royeaux, which help it feel more than a glorified shopping mall. The main quest is part of it, particularly since it tends to help tie things into the various side quests. And helps make visits to it feel worthwhile, rather than being a couple of conversations that aren't really worth the loading screen - or to put in more in character, worth the lengthy journey to Val Royeaux.

 

The main quest isn't part of it, because that's not showcasing Denerim. The Landsmeet part - the actual part - is just one random room, and there's no actual connection to the "City". Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts could be set in Val Royeaux, it could be called the "whatever Palace", and suddenly would that make you say you've "seen" more of the city? That's the consequence of counting those scenarios. No character is allowed to see any of this - Arl Howe, the Landsmeet, the battle scene - until you've essentially finished the game.

 

Let me put it another way: if Bioware set some massive battle in Val Royeaux, so instead of Adamant it was some fortress in that city, again I would take the position that they have illustrated a city.

When we're talking about how well they execute a city, we have to talk about the actual city parts of it, i.e., using Novigrad as an example.

 

Denerim is a glorified shopping mall. We have the markets, and we have a few brothels. Two inns. And a few stores.

[Ariella]

I'm curious who was complaining about bland colors? I thought it was because of EA. But if you are saying it was Bioware who decided to listen to such complains, then they cannot tell what is actually good about a game they created. Design of DAO was great because it was connection of morbidity and something gentle. It was one of the reasons why DAO was successful even though players wouldn't focus on that. It added big immersion into the story together with music. 
And debacle of DAII was because of that has changed...
 
I would bet according to what someone said about Brent Knowles, that it was employees from another branch, not fans...

More than a few people here were complaining about the bland color palette and when I say bland I mean faded into almost nothing colors. The browns and somewhat swampy greens, plus the kind of purplish colors of any ruin. Yes, there were a lot of complains about DAO's color palette. It wasn't EA that mandated it.

DAO's design was okay. The story was what sold it, and unfortunately the engine hasn't aged well. Combat was slow, clunky in its animation, and yes, the colors were just God awful. Arms and armor were generic except for coloring. And as I said, hasn't aged well. And it's not like Bioware has ever really been known for their graphics.

As for Knowles, I really don't give much of a damn. He hasn't done anything in the industry since DAO, he was active on JE, and on one of Bioware's actually BAD titles: Neverwinter Nights OC, the one that had the fetch four things main quest for each of the chapters. The NWN team redeemed themselves on NWN SoU and HotU, but the OC was just awful. Much worse than DA 2, even with all the complaints.

Brent Knowles is one person, and no one has any real idea how things would have worked out if he'd stayed. He might have steered in in a direction people liked and he might have not. It's possible he would have alienated a completely different segment of the fan base with what he wanted to do. But let's not pretend he's the second coming of Dragon Age.

[Darkly Tranquil]

The story was what sold it, and unfortunately the engine hasn't aged well. Combat was slow, clunky in its animation, and yes, the colors were just God awful. Arms and armor were generic except for coloring. And as I said, hasn't aged well.

DAO's engine did exactly what it was supposed to - replicate the Infinity engine's core gameplay, while offering a more modern third person view. It seems "slow and clunky" because while it looks like a third person game, it's not operating as one, and it was never meant to.

[Das Tentakel]

DAO's engine did exactly what it was supposed to - replicate the Infinity engine's core gameplay, while offering a more modern third person view. It seems "slow and clunky" because while it looks like a third person game, it's not operating as one, and it was never meant to.

 

My first thoughts playing it was 'Hello Neverwinter Nights 3'...

[Wulfram]

The main quest isn't part of it, because that's not showcasing Denerim. The Landsmeet part - the actual part - is just one random room, and there's no actual connection to the "City". Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts could be set in Val Royeaux, it could be called the "whatever Palace", and suddenly would that make you say you've "seen" more of the city? That's the consequence of counting those scenarios.

The actual landsmeet chamber itself could easily be elsewhere, it's true. But the rest? It all ties into the story of the city. The fact that it's set their changes the story, and often bleeds out into the more open parts of it. You get at least a little taste of what it's like to be an elf in Denerim, and Howe's rule is reflected in various places through out it. And eventually you get to come back to try and save it.
 
 
 

No character is allowed to see any of this - Arl Howe, the Landsmeet, the battle scene - until you've essentially finished the game.

I don't see why that's relevant
 
 
 

Let me put it another way: if Bioware set some massive battle in Val Royeaux, so instead of Adamant it was some fortress in that city, again I would take the position that they have illustrated a city.
When we're talking about how well they execute a city, we have to talk about the actual city parts of it, i.e., using Novigrad as an example.

How are they not "actual" parts of the city? They are parts of the city. Just because they're not part of some open area doesn't make them not part of the city.
 
 
 

Denerim is a glorified shopping mall. We have the markets, and we have a few brothels. Two inns. And a few stores.

Denerim is also a place under the rule of a tyrannical Arl, a place where restless elves fight against oppression. It's where the politics of the realm take place and the site of the final desperate battle and the death of an Archdemon.

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

Good narratives and writing in AAA games are not easy. Best described as shuffle-what-wasn't-cut-until-it-doesn't-suck-completely.

Sometimes the writers don't produce their best, that's just an inescapable reality, but overall nothing is ever one person's fault.

OP is misinformed.

[Ariella]

DAO's engine did exactly what it was supposed to - replicate the Infinity engine's core gameplay, while offering a more modern third person view. It seems "slow and clunky" because while it looks like a third person game, it's not operating as one, and it was never meant to.

I realize the engine was a transitional one, both from their experience with NWN and BG, but it tried to be all things to everybody, and it ended up clunky. People complained it was slow, people complained the combat animation was lousy (the hunched over walk comes to mind). And as for being a third person game, DA was going to go that way no matter what. Bioware had already stuck a toe in with NWN.

Yes, it did what it was supposed to do, but there were a number of issues that people commented on after the game was released, so lets not pretend that Dragon Age Origin is the be all end all. It wasn't. It was a starting point, something people seem to forget.

[Ariella]

Good narratives and writing in AAA games are not easy. Best described as shuffle-what-wasn't-cut-until-it-doesn't-suck-completely.

Sometimes the writers don't produce their best, that's just an inescapable reality, but overall nothing is ever one person's fault.

OP is misinformed.

Jazz,

This is just more of the same from the DA2 days. Mike Laidlaw has made a good scapegoat for everything people don't like about the series. They're more interested in placing "blame" for why they don't like the game, rather than giving feedback.

[CuriousArtemis]

Story and roleplaying are the selling points of the series for me. 90% of DAI's content is mindless MMO style grinding. The story is very, very short and not all that great. DAO had a crappy main story, but great subplots, while DA2 had a great concept even if the execution was a bit lackluster. DAI doesn't have any of that, and it's quite ironic when the stuff you read about in the war table sounds way more interesting than what you're doing.

 

THIIIIIS  Really sad how true this. "Hey guys let's write all sorts of cool adventures and discoveries but make it so the PC can't actually do them!" *meanwhile the PC is busy picking the 100000000th lotus flower and adding it to their collection*

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

Jazz,

This is just more of the same from the DA2 days. Mike Laidlaw has made a good scapegoat for everything people don't like about the series. They're more interested in placing "blame" for why they don't like the game, rather than giving feedback.

You're right. I've seen it with other series. Developer X spoke at a convention, thus everything wrong is blamed on that face. Very unfortunate.

I loved Dragon Age II, despite its flaws.

[In Exile]

To be fair, the writing on Jade Empire is much simpler. It's effectively a pastiche of kung-fu movies. It doesn't need to have the depth something like Dragon Age should. Origins wasn't anything groundbreaking, but it was solid and it did what it did well. DA2 was rushed, a lot of the story didn't make sense, and a lot of player agency got lost on the cutting floor with damn near everything else. But it had it's good points (Act 2, Legacy). DAI's just sort of there. It doesn't function as an RPG as well as Origins nor does it match the story, and it doesn't do the human element as well as DA2. It's just sort of "meh".

 

And yes, I want a sequel to JE. It's one of the things where Bioware's "let's make everything an action game" wouldn't muck it up, because JE is an action game. So it's a win-win situation.

 

Jade Empire probably has the second (or best) villain since Irenicus, with the only (marginally sane) justification for his actions and - most of all - an actual rational plot. It's Bioware's best work in terms of the plot structure - because among other things it actually has one - their best or second best villain (again, depending on your views of Irenicus), and some of their most creative character concepts. It's also IMO their darkest game - by far - and one where the darkness isn't some crazy supernatural villain but, rather, than human evil.

 

Suffice it to say that I think you're completely wrong about what's Bioware's best work, story wise, and the only time they've come close to Obsidian's writing.