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[In Exile]

The actual landsmeet chamber itself could easily be elsewhere, it's true. But the rest? It all ties into the story of the city. The fact that it's set their changes the story, and often bleeds out into the more open parts of it. You get at least a little taste of what it's like to be an elf in Denerim, and Howe's rule is reflected in various places through out it. And eventually you get to come back to try and save it.
 

[...]

Denerim is also a place under the rule of a tyrannical Arl, a place where restless elves fight against oppression. It's where the politics of the realm take place and the site of the final desperate battle and the death of an Archdemon.

 

The story doesn't change, and it doesn't bleed into any part of the game. Denerim is a modern day village, where there's absolutely no sign of oppression anywhere (unless you happened to pick the right elf background), where a character you've seen look vaguely evil in a cutscene vignette (Arl Howe), apparently appointeded some violent incompetents to a city guard that's so moral their Captain immediately choses treason to side with you (since he (1) knows you're a GW; and (2) actively works with you).

 

There's no story you see until the endgame. That's my point. You don't get an atmosphere of Denerim. A random sight of the medieval prison - which has absolutely no die to Denerim, beyond people saying "Fort Drakkon is in Denerim!", isn't characterizing the city. The same with the Landsmeet.

 

The Alienage, again, is phemomenal. It's very well done. Bioware hasn't really done poverty like that again. But that's not the Denerim we casually experience.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Jade Empire probably has the second (or best) villain since Irenicus, with the only (marginally sane) justification for his actions and - most of all - an actual rational plot. It's Bioware's best work in terms of the plot structure - because among other things it actually has one - their best or second best villain (again, depending on your views of Irenicus), and some of their most creative character concepts. It's also IMO their darkest game - by far - and one where the darkness isn't some crazy supernatural villain but, rather, than human evil.

 

Suffice it to say that I think you're completely wrong about what's Bioware's best work, story wise, and the only time they've come close to Obsidian's writing.

 

Scroll up a bit for my following post, but I'm not downing the writing on JE any. Not at all. I speak as someone who feels Bioware goes to the mind control/corruption well all too often (especially with ME and DA both heavily dipping in it), and I've never been quiet about that. I really wish they'd look back at JE for a villain that's actually not only doing it of his own volition but is pretty rational and (arguably) did what he did for good reasons. I don't know if it's their best writing, because BG2 did set such a high standard, but it's definitely in my top three.

[Gwydden]

Jade Empire probably has the second (or best) villain since Irenicus, with the only (marginally sane) justification for his actions and - most of all - an actual rational plot. It's Bioware's best work in terms of the plot structure - because among other things it actually has one - their best or second best villain (again, depending on your views of Irenicus), and some of their most creative character concepts. It's also IMO their darkest game - by far - and one where the darkness isn't some crazy supernatural villain but, rather, than human evil.

 

Suffice it to say that I think you're completely wrong about what's Bioware's best work, story wise, and the only time they've come close to Obsidian's writing.

JE was something else. I had issues with the short story, clumsy combat, and the fact that you couldn't be Closed Fist without being a complete and utter *******, but even with its flaws it had the best main plot of the Bioware games I've played (which includes all of ME and DA) and it was a fairly original concept. And yeah, one of the best villains. I wouldn't say no to a sequel.

[line_genrou]

"Here's an unfunny and overused reaction image; that'll teach you to have an opinion that conflicts with mine." OP was even courteous enough to avoid naming names, yet you still carry on, like clockwork. Amazing.

 

At what point did critique start warranting petulant passive-aggressiveness? I'd love to see you people in any sort of art class.

 

It's not a real critique of BioWare if we don't have our biodrones.
 

[line_genrou]

This. So much.

I hope that I never see something like this again:

 

In my opinion, a more realistic representation of combat adds a lot of immersion.

The Witcher 3 made that almost perfect. http://www.gamesrada...l-you-expected/

 

Oh come on

 

[Paul E Dangerously]

JE was something else. I had issues with the short story, clumsy combat, and the fact that you couldn't be Closed Fist without being a complete and utter *******, but even with its flaws it had the best main plot of the Bioware games I've played (which includes all of ME and DA) and it was a fairly original concept. And yeah, one of the best villains. I wouldn't say no to a sequel.

 

I actually kind of liked that. Too often the other path in a Bioware game basically amounts to being a school bully - almost literally in KOTOR, but some of those CF decisions in Jade Empire actually made me go "Oh God, did I actually just go there?".

[bEVEsthda]

I've just noticed that at Bioware there seems to be weird stuff going on within the company's infrastructure, and while I don't have any real insight, I am looking on it from afar and wondering "this seems weird to me".

In not one, but two cases has it happened now, that Bioware has promoted people of different developer backgrounds into positions that basically rank higher tha. Where they used to be, and in both cases it's weird since said people were not exactly amazing at what they did when they were in an inferior position.

A lot if the criticisms you see in various forum threads nowadays towards Bioware has been comments like "their writers can't write" or "Bioware don't know what they're doing anymore" and unfortunately I sometimes agree.

On the two leading franchises they've taken, arguably one of their worst writers and put them into position if Creative Director. How is a person who lacks the capability to write and 'get' narrative supposed to keep track of the big picture, and give guidance to programmers, art designers, writers, sound staff etc. if the game is totally relying in the artistic aspects and especially lore and world building, when said person wasn't even capable to write as well as the rest of his team?

I'm not gonna call anyone by name even if it's sort of obvious, but I find one of these Creative Directors to be a guy who always throws big and empty buzzwords around when he's interviewed and give off the impression that he doesn't understand his own work very well, while the other guy seems to want his game to be like every other game he's played and basically be anything but how it was in DA:O, which even some critics agree was when the series was at its best. (that's important stuff, since critics have louder voices than fans, but they tend to like dumbed down stuff better)

Basically... what the heck, Bioware?

 

So, so simple:

One of these unnamed guys is probably a very competent person. So competent, in fact, that it makes a hell of lot of sense to try to make use of that competence. Particularly, when he's willing to do the kind of game that the collective leadership is convinced they should make.

 

That conviction about the "kind of game" being mindblowingly, double-face-palmly, tear-hair-in-despairly wrong, is a completely different issue. That would be the influence and fruit of the same nucleous of EA people - that never really change, even as the individuals do - that have been destroying most of the things that EA have been trying to do, for decades. Don't get these things mixed up.

[Linkenski]

Correct me if I'm right, but there is no longer any Bioware at Bioware are there. Those left in the building use to be caretakers, Pizza boys, EA admin, and groupies from when Bioware owned the gaff.

Despite of the departures, there's actually still much of the old talent remaining. Luke Kristjanson for instance, was a lead writer way back when they made Baldurs Gate 2, and he wrote IMO the most redeemable parts of both DA2 and DAI.

I didn't actually know that Mike was lead designer on DAO. I just heard he used to be a writer but according to himself David Gaider is leagues ahead of him and it's not like I think Gaider is really that good either. He writes like it's Saturday AM cartoon

[Murdan]

More than a few people here were complaining about the bland color palette and when I say bland I mean faded into almost nothing colors. The browns and somewhat swampy greens, plus the kind of purplish colors of any ruin. Yes, there were a lot of complains about DAO's color palette. It wasn't EA that mandated it.

DAO's design was okay. The story was what sold it, and unfortunately the engine hasn't aged well. Combat was slow, clunky in its animation, and yes, the colors were just God awful. Arms and armor were generic except for coloring. And as I said, hasn't aged well. And it's not like Bioware has ever really been known for their graphics.
 

 

 

I love it both - the palette and design. For me it works great together with the RPG title. 

 

Maybe if they would choose to create Jade Empire II instead with that new design, nobody would complain and it would be different now. Well it is all the past now.

[Morroian]

This is just more of the same from the DA2 days. Mike Laidlaw has made a good scapegoat for everything people don't like about the series. They're more interested in placing "blame" for why they don't like the game, rather than giving feedback.

 

IMHO the failures in the DA series are due to poor overall design and project management therefore I hold Mike Laidlaw and Mark Darrah accountable.

[In Exile]

IMHO the failures in the DA series are due to poor overall design and project management therefore I hold Mike Laidlaw and Mark Darrah accountable.

 

Design is not the same as project management, and I'm a bit perplexed as to why you think DA was poorly managed (rather than poorly designed, which we can argue).

 

I love it both - the palette and design. For me it works great together with the RPG title. 

 

Maybe if they would choose to create Jade Empire II instead with that new design, nobody would complain and it would be different now. Well it is all the past now.

 

Dreary and brown "works" with an RPG? That's silly.

[Saphiron123]

The story doesn't change, and it doesn't bleed into any part of the game. Denerim is a modern day village, where there's absolutely no sign of oppression anywhere (unless you happened to pick the right elf background), where a character you've seen look vaguely evil in a cutscene vignette (Arl Howe), apparently appointeded some violent incompetents to a city guard that's so moral their Captain immediately choses treason to side with you (since he (1) knows you're a GW; and (2) actively works with you).

 

There's no story you see until the endgame. That's my point. You don't get an atmosphere of Denerim. A random sight of the medieval prison - which has absolutely no die to Denerim, beyond people saying "Fort Drakkon is in Denerim!", isn't characterizing the city. The same with the Landsmeet.

 

The Alienage, again, is phemomenal. It's very well done. Bioware hasn't really done poverty like that again. But that's not the Denerim we casually experience.

I disagree with so much of what you say. Denerim had a lot of stories. Though I know you're not an origins fan since you hated the idea of being a warden. I mean it's basic for today's agmes, but it's a damned old game and in it's time it was as good a city experience as you could get in any title.

Meanwhile DAI offered so little in the way of city atmosphere that they didn't actually include any cities, aside from a one screen marketplace and a version of redcliff that has neither red nor cliffs.

Say what you want about lothering or denerim, they both blow val royeaux out of the water seeing as how, like all things inquisition, you don't get to experience it (you just hear about it).

[Saphiron123]

Tell me how they absolutely needed a city in this?

Denerim is in DAO because it has plot value. But you aren't going to Highever or Amaranthine. The only other 'cities' you see in DAO are Redcliff (which is in DAI), Lothering, and Orzammar.

This story doesn't require a large city to function. Would more of VR been nice? Sure, but it wasn't needed to tell the story. With the exception of the Winter Palace, none of the conflicts taking place are in the cities. VR is pretty untouched except for the emotional aspect. The battles are happening in places like The Exalted Plains, where settlements are being ripped apart. Or Emprise du Lion, where bad luck, weather and red templars have reduced the area to ruin. Or Crestwood and the horrors thst lurk there.

All these areas contribute to the story. Haven, and later Skyhold act as hubs for quests. There's no real pressing need for a city which will require numerous techinal assets that could be used elsewhere.

And it's not like there have never been rpgs that have been run out of just a small village... Nope, no such thing ever happened in the history of all rpgs. Unless you count the original Ravenloft for example....

It SHOULD have cities, and people, and elements to add to the story and they should be incorporated. All they agve us was big empty wilderness with zero story significance.

Sure, they could tell the story without cities, and they did, and all we have to do is mine rocks and interact with a population of maybe 100 people.

I think if anything they proved that deciding cities and NPCs were unecessary doesn't make for a great narrative...

Now contrast that with the witcher, which gave us just as much wilderness, and big cities with tons of fully voiced npcs and complicated quests in the vein of origins. And sure, the original ravenoft was run out of one village, but I also don't recall it promising massive living open environments the way dai did.

I don't care if they run it out of a shoebox, but the reason I miss cities is because I want some actual meaty quests and more variety, DAI did not deliver anything close to that. If the game was excellent and filled with interesting characters and complex quests, i wouldn't miss them... but it wasn't, outside of your companions most of the npcs might as well be made of wood.

[Das Tentakel]

...I mean it's basic for today's age, but it's a damned old game and in it's time it was as good a city experience as you could get in any title.

Meanwhile DAI offered so little in the way of city atmosphere that they didn't actually include any cities, aside from a one screen marketplace and a version of redcliff that has neither red nor cliffs.

While I sympathize and basically agree, Denerim and Ironfo..,erm, Orgrimm… blast! I mean, Orzammar were pretty much ‘behind the times’ in 2009. They were very traditional BioWarian ‘3D-ish stage background’ style of places; a whole bunch of games throughout the 2000’s (or even, given the state of technology, back in the late 90’s) had better cities.

Anyway, Denerim and Orgrimm… rats! Orzammar were still a lot better than Val Royeaux. Moreover, the fact that we had two very different-looking ‘cities’ partly compensated for the fact that they weren’t that great or large.

One thing though: If Val Royeaux had a nice ‘big city’ skybox and a handful of modest-sized additional locations – a slum, a posh neighbourhood, a piece of alienage and a luxury brothel – that would have been better. But…. people (including me) would still complain aloud that even such an expanded Val Royeaux would be faaaaaaar behind other videogame cities from the last several years in terms of size and liveliness.
We’ve reached a point where ‘selling’ a traditional BioWarian 'city' has become increasingly difficult and maybe even impossible. At the same time, implementing a ‘true’ city may not only be very expensive, there’s the major technological problem of pathfinding in such a place with a party of companions. If Bio can’t or doesn’t want to solve that problem, they would either have to design a believable city (plus mechanics) that circumvents it, or avoiding it altogether as they did in DA:I.

[In Exile]

I disagree with so much of what you say. Denerim had a lot of stories. Though I know you're not an origins fan since you hated the idea of being a warden. I mean it's basic for today's agmes, but it's a damned old game and in it's time it was as good a city experience as you could get in any title.

Meanwhile DAI offered so little in the way of city atmosphere that they didn't actually include any cities, aside from a one screen marketplace and a version of redcliff that has neither red nor cliffs.

Say what you want about lothering or denerim, they both blow val royeaux out of the water seeing as how, like all things inquisition, you don't get to experience it (you just hear about it).

You're very confused. Just because I don't like the premise of DAO doesn't mean I don't like a lot of DAOs design. I just think the cities in DAO were bad both relative to their contemporary RPG comparison (e.g. NWN2s Neverwinter and TW1s Vizima), much less games focused on illustrating cities (like Assassin's Creed). They were also very inferior to cities Bioware had already designed: Baldur's Gate, etc.

As I said from the start: DAI did an awful job. I hate wilderness. I just don't think DAO did a better job. They had a few more sidequests set in the city - but some of them were total trash like the blood mage hut and the various fetch quests like stuffing corpses down a well and painting doors - but none of those made a truly "atmospheric" city by the contemporary standards or by older RPG standards like PS:T or BG1/BG2.

Lothering is totally different. It's much more in the vein of an "old school" isomeric RPG village. It was a better done version of the DAI Crossroads because (by scale) it has more atmospheric content (not just well fed refugees sitting around, but more visible interaction). The Crossroads isn't well done in terms of conveying content and it's too small relative to the Hinterlands.

[Enigmatick]

Frankly, if I was on the dev team I would be pretty embarrassed and ashamed. You take the player to the biggest city in the game's world and you only let them explore a small market square?

 

On top of that you do this in the franchise's first open world game? Yeesh. I wish the gaming press was a little bit more well versed in the setting so they could actually inquire as to why all that potential was squandered.

 

EDIT: Wish I was discussing this in a thread with a better topic though.

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

Frankly, if I was on the dev team I would be pretty embarrassed and ashamed. You take the player to the biggest city in the game's world and you only let them explore a small market square?
 
On top of that you do this in the franchise's first open world game? Yeesh. I wish the gaming press was a little bit more well versed in the setting so they could actually inquire as to why all that potential was squandered.
 
EDIT: Wish I was discussing this in a thread with a better topic though.

From what I've observed, the original vision for Inquisition was, how to say... more grand?

So much of the game's early press material and concept art suggested a long journey of gaining power, asking question, and making decisions--the village or the castle in Crestwood, for example. Almost all the trailers are littered with scenes/content that didn't make it into the final game.

I would imagine a large part of it is because the game was sliced up for last-gen hardware. That and just the general troubles that come with changing engines mid-development. To put it bluntly, while I do like the game, it is substantially less impressive than the game I thought I was buying.

[Saphiron123]

While I sympathize and basically agree, Denerim and Ironfo..,erm, Orgrimm… blast! I mean, Orzammar were pretty much ‘behind the times’ in 2009. They were very traditional BioWarian ‘3D-ish stage background’ style of places; a whole bunch of games throughout the 2000’s (or even, given the state of technology, back in the late 90’s) had better cities.

Anyway, Denerim and Orgrimm… rats! Orzammar were still a lot better than Val Royeaux. Moreover, the fact that we had two very different-looking ‘cities’ partly compensated for the fact that they weren’t that great or large.

One thing though: If Val Royeaux had a nice ‘big city’ skybox and a handful of modest-sized additional locations – a slum, a posh neighbourhood, a piece of alienage and a luxury brothel – that would have been better. But…. people (including me) would still complain aloud that even such an expanded Val Royeaux would be faaaaaaar behind other videogame cities from the last several years in terms of size and liveliness.
We’ve reached a point where ‘selling’ a traditional BioWarian 'city' has become increasingly difficult and maybe even impossible. At the same time, implementing a ‘true’ city may not only be very expensive, there’s the major technological problem of pathfinding in such a place with a party of companions. If Bio can’t or doesn’t want to solve that problem, they would either have to design a believable city (plus mechanics) that circumvents it, or avoiding it altogether as they did in DA:I.

If they can't solve that problem, they don't belong in gaming anymore. Pathfinding on that level has existed for a long time... and hey, a few scenes can work, it doesn't have to be Novigrad... but if CDPR can do it with their limited size and budget and bioware can't even produce A city? I'd say Bioware is already pretty done.

Dai gave us pretty but empty environments with nothing to do, if it wasn't for the dragon age name, it would have been okay at best.

 

[FKA_Servo]

If they can't solve that problem, they don't belong in gaming anymore. Pathfinding on that level has existed for a long time... and hey, a few scenes can work, it doesn't have to be Novigrad... but if CDPR can do it with their limited size and budget and bioware can't even produce A city? I'd say Bioware is already pretty done.

 

CDPR is owned and funded by one of the largest video game distributors in the world. Not that it invalidates their accomplishments or their laudable practices, but they're not exactly a scrappy underdog, cobbling together their games in their basement with a team of 3 (although based on TW1, you could be forgiven for thinking that).

 

End of the day, CDPR has about as much indie cred as EA does.

[Dread-Reaper]

CDPR is owned and funded by one of the largest video game distributors in the world. Not that it invalidates their accomplishments or their laudable practices, but they're not exactly a scrappy underdog, cobbling together their games in their basement with a team of 3 (although based on TW1, you could be forgiven for thinking that).

 

End of the day, CDPR has about as much indie cred as EA does.

If someone could ever think TW1 was made by three guys in their basement, then they must think that Bioware games were made by untalented chumps.

[FKA_Servo]

If someone could ever think TW1 was made by three guys in their basement, then they must think that Bioware games were made by untalented chumps.

Well, chumps who can generally craft gameplay mechanics that don't lose friends and alienate people.

CDPR has certainly shown the ability to improve, though it did take them two more games to nail it.

[Dread-Reaper]

Well, chumps who can generally craft gameplay mechanics that don't lose friends and alienate people.

CDPR has certainly shown the ability to improve, though it did take them two more games to nail it.

So Dragon Age's gameplay never alienated people? Hm, not sure about that one.

[FKA_Servo]

So Dragon Age's gameplay never alienated people? Hm, not sure about that one.

Well, that's obviously not true, since it takes all kinds. Though I think that all three games are pretty solid in that respect.

But I'm not the only person to regard TW1 as the middle child of that series either. Frankly, it was one of the most unpleasant gameplay experiences I think I've ever had, and TW2 improves on it in nearly every aspect I can name.

Of course, I also think that TW3 sits them both in the corner, with the exception of Gwent. Gwent can go die in a fire.

[Dread-Reaper]

Well, that's obviously not true, since it takes all kinds. Though I think that all three games are pretty solid in that respect.

But I'm not the only person to regard TW1 as the middle child of that series either. Frankly, it was one of the most unpleasant gameplay experiences I think I've ever had, and TW2 improves on it in nearly every aspect I can think of.

Of course, I also think that TW3 sits them both in the corner, with the exception of Gwent. Gwent can go die in a fire.

Dragon Age's combat was always a mixed bag for me, I liked the gameplay in DAO but it was way too slow to be interesting, had to get a mod to make the game playable. There was also the problem of the specializations being extremely underwhelming and plain not fun to use. DA2's ridiculous enemies from the sky, neutered enemy mages, over inflated HP enemies and ridiculous gore also made the game a slog to get through. Now we have DAI where enemies spawn on top of you, have too much HP, 8 quick bars and the 4th July fireworks effects on every skill. Not to mention the retarded AI that kept jumping and charging of cliffs, casting barrier every chance they got and that abomination that was suppose to pass as tactics.

 

I also consider  The Witcher 1 to be least impressive of the trilogy as well, but that's only because the games got better and better, not because it was just bad. However, there are people who consider it the best of the series and would never touch the sequels because they consider them to be 'consolized'.

[cJohnOne]

I disagree that combat on DA2 was a slog.  I enjoyed the battles in DA2 much more than the ones in DAI and in places better than DAO.

 

Reinforcements doesn't have much to do with the combat but in the realism.