77 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

I don't see why synthesis is going to bring peace. Turians are still turian, just with some synthetic parts now. Krogan are still krogan,  just with some synthetic parts now. Humans are still human.....well you get the point.

Hell apart from adding some green glow the Reapers don't change a bit, as they always were synthetic/organic hybrids.

Why would races suddenly start trusting the Reapers who have wiped billions of them out. Because they now have a shared glow?

Unless synthesis adds a mind control element, I just don't see how it is meant to bring the peace.

It doesn't bring peace and it isn't intended to do so. It just prevents any conflicts that may break out from resulting in the exinction of one domain of life.

[dorktainian]

any decision that leaves the reapers existing is a bad decision.

[Thrombin]

I never really understood Synthesis. It sounded like the matrix of life was being changed to the extent that synthetics would forever be part organic and organics would be part synthetic but, by definition, I don't see how that could be sustainable beyond the first generation. How could babies be born with synthetic parts? Why would synthetics automatically be manufactured with organic parts unless they chose to do so? Why would they choose to do so?  I just didn't get it.

 

Having said that, I tended to work towards specific endings by making my Shepard into the type of character who would favour that ending. As such I was happy to choose all three endings depending on the Shepard and the circumstances. For example, my destroy Shepards would be anti-Geth and would generally consider synthetics, even EDI, as just being machines that simulated life without really being any more than that. That way I had no qualms wiping them out at the end.

 

My Control Shepards worked to bring the Geth and Quarians together, encouraged EDI and Jeff and couldn't possibly pick an option that would wipe them out. Nor would they consider imposing a fundamental change of the physical and emotional natures of all the Galaxy's races. The Reapers are already being controlled (by the Catalyst) and replacing that control with my own has got to be better than killing them.

 

Synthesis actually takes the biggest stretch, for me, but those Shepards are also pro-synthetics. I just allow them to be persuaded that bringing synthetics and organics closer together so that they can choose to live in harmony without being forced to do so has got to be the best way to go.

 

You can roleplay it so that all the endings (even refuse) makes sense to your Shepard and thus makes the ending satisfying within the context of that runthrough.

[Batarian Master Race]

It doesn't bring peace and it isn't intended to do so. It just prevents any conflicts that may break out from resulting in the exinction of one domain of life.

 

That's... terrifying.

 

"Synthetics will wipe out organics, so... if we make you ALL synthetic and ALL organic, no matter how many of you die, organics and synthetics will both exist! What smart Reapers we are. :D"

[dorktainian]

I never really understood Synthesis. It sounded like the matrix of life was being changed to the extent that synthetics would forever be part organic and organics would be part synthetic but, by definition, I don't see how that could be sustainable beyond the first generation. 

 

We have an example of this in game as well.....

 

 

 

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=VJIQfmWx3dI

[angol fear]

That's... terrifying.

"Synthetics will wipe out organics, so... if we make you ALL synthetic and ALL organic, no matter how many of you die, organics and synthetics will both exist! What smart Reapers we are. :D"

Mass effect logic is just the opposite. You still consider the reapers to be the enemy when they are not. The organic and synthetics problem is a problem of otherness. How it works is shown during the rannoch missions. It has nothing to do with what you wrote.

[Batarian Master Race]

You still consider the reapers to be the enemy when they are not.

 

Of all the crazy **** you've said, this is one of the craziest.

 

Who, exactly, are the enemy, if not the Reapers?

 

 

 

The organic and synthetics problem is a problem of otherness.

 

And the only way to resolve this otherness is to jam computer chips into everybody... why?

There's a difference between being different and being "other". Shepard's entire crew is a glaring example of this.

[angol fear]

Of all the crazy **** you've said, this is one of the craziest.

 

Who, exactly, are the enemy, if not the Reapers?

 

Impressive, so you never saw the Sovereign speech, never listened to Harbinger, never played the Rannoch mission and never reach the ending.

 

 

And the only way to resolve this otherness is to jam computer chips into everybody... why?

There's a difference between being different and being "other". Shepard's entire crew is a glaring example of this.

 

You have to understand it by yourself : it is said in the game (Javik and rannoch missions). As long as someone will tell you, you will deny it.

[dorktainian]

snipped.....

[dorktainian]

Impressive, so you never saw the Sovereign speech, never listened to Harbinger, never played the Rannoch mission and never reach the ending.

 

 

 

You have to understand it by yourself : it is said in the game (Javik and rannoch missions). As long as someone will tell you, you will deny it.

 

 

 

The only quotable dialogue you should be quoting is Vigils dialogue, which counters your argument totally.  You should not be seeking to understand them, you should only be looking to stop them.  Synthebodge is us understanding them.  This is exactly what Vigil warned Shepard about.  It is a bad ending.  You do not stop the reapers by choosing synthebodge, just as you do not stop the reapers by choosing to surrender (control).

 

The only way to stop the reapers is to destroy them.

[Batarian Master Race]

Impressive, so you never saw the Sovereign speech, never listened to Harbinger, never played the Rannoch mission and never reach the ending.

 

 

 

You have to understand it by yourself : it is said in the game (Javik and rannoch missions). As long as someone will tell you, you will deny it.

 

Instead of casting aspersions on what I have and haven't done, why don't you explain your reasoning?

 

And why is Synthesis the only way synthetics can understand organics? Legion certainly began to understand organics during his time on the Normandy, and Adams understood EDI's form of life in ME3. EDI learned about organics by talking to Shepard and Joker.

[voteDC]

It doesn't bring peace and it isn't intended to do so. It just prevents any conflicts that may break out from resulting in the extinction of one domain of life.

But it won't do that.

Turians are still turian even if they have synthetic elements in them. Wipe out the turians and the race is still extinct even if the same green glowy stuff exists in other races.

In fact the only thing it ensures is the survival of synthetic elements.

 

Instead of casting aspersions on what I have and haven't done, why don't you explain your reasoning?

 

And why is Synthesis the only way synthetics can understand organics? Legion certainly began to understand organics during his time on the Normandy, and Adams understood EDI's form of life in ME3. EDI learned about organics by talking to Shepard and Joker.

To me the Reapers are our enemies but they do not consider us to be theirs. We are just something that is in the way.

[Batarian Master Race]

To me the Reapers are our enemies but they do not consider us to be theirs. We are just something that is in the way.

 

That makes sense.

 

It doesn't explain angol fear's reasoning as it relates to my post, but it makes sense.

[KaiserShep]

Mass effect logic is just the opposite. You still consider the reapers to be the enemy when they are not. The organic and synthetics problem is a problem of otherness. How it works is shown during the rannoch missions. It has nothing to do with what you wrote.

Their ultimate purpose doesn't really change the effect it has on the people living in the moment. Whether it be for noble or malicious goals, and whether or not the reapers themselves intend to be, they are the enemy for one simple reason: they're trying to kill you and harvest your species against their will. Any choice you make with the Crucible is neutralizing that enemy. As for the synthetic problem, that issue is resolved for the time being, and could very well stay that way for generations after. The only pressing concern at the moment is imminent extinction resulting from the reaper assault.

[Linkenski]

If I am to understand angol fear's argument correctly, I gather it's about the lack of understanding between organics and synthetics (which is part of the writer POV) and what angol fear called otherness. I fully get that idea, and I think it's totally interesting. I just think it was wrong of the writers to look at it as a thing that needed fixing by taking what's special about synthetics (the otherness) and removing it by making them organics (the pinnochio arc or synthesis).

 

I think what ended up becoming Mass Effect's message if you have synthesis as your ending, is totally wrong in almost every sense. The thing that makes Mass Effect special as a setting IMO is that it's futuristic contemporary setting that has aliens and highly advanced synthetics that operate on a sentient level, and that it spans the galaxy. Synthesis takes the synthetics out of the equation by making the difference between organics and synthetics negate pretty much. In a hypothetical alternative version of Mass Effect 3's story where the synthetics vs organics theme was the central conflict for real, then I would've still probably thought that synthesis as a solution was like missing the point.

 

IMO synthesis is sugarcoating in the finest sense. If you have two distinct identities that oppose each other and make tension, the least interesting solution would be to remove their identities. That doesn't really solve the conflict IMO, it just flattens it. The interesting part IS the identities, and you'd want to explore those not discard them.

 

 

I'm being very generous just by arguing this far into ending chronology. Normally I outright reject the concept because the entire synthetics vs organics conflict at the end is an entirely different story than the rest of ME3.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Interesting. My Shepard, who was very similar in his choices, chose Destroy.

 

He was all about believing in the inherent goodness in the galaxy, and as such refused to follow the Catalyst's insistence that synthetics and organics would always conflict. He believed that our flaws made us who we our, our diversity was our greatest strength; to take that from the galaxy would be to create a bland existence.

 

The potential to prove the Catalyst wrong, to prove that the Galaxy was ready to accept a new definition of life... that potential was far greater than what would be accomplished by slotting a bunch of computer chips into everyone.

 

As for Control... That violates Shepard's belief in free will and free decisions. Even a "good" Shepard would be effectively a god, his very presence altering the way people act via fear of retribution. That would lead to a world where people did good things not out of goodness, but because the Reapers would react if they didn't.

 

In the end, Destroy was the only choice that wouldn't permanently change the universe. The Geth and EDI were the price Shepard had to pay thanks to an insane AI. It's not right to destroy an entire race like that, but it was the best of three bad options.

 

I find trying to prove some point to the Catalyst to be rather petty. It is kind of strange how to me much people want to "stick it" to him rather than just dismiss his opinion as just that -- an opinion. I do happen to agree, but that is largely irrelevant.

 

I believe in the inherent goodness competence of the galaxy, myself. That is exactly why I chose it. I think it there is great advancement potential in this if handled correctly, and since they came together and stood tall against the Reapers, I think they can do this too.

 

Also, I am pretty sure the Crucible is the reason for the geth/EDI thing, not glowboy.

[Linkenski]

A good headcanon for the destroy = kill Geth+EDI is that both run on reaper-based code or something like that, which makes sense when the crucible seemingly is targeted at reaper-tech like the Mass Relays and Reapers themselves (except if you choose Synthesis).

[dragonflight288]

OP, I disagree with something you said.

 

You say that organics have been reliant on AI's for centuries and centuries, or at least synthetics.

 

That is incorrect. AI's have been outlawed in Citadel space since the Geth were created, and only very few companies are licensed to research AI's. 

 

Rather, organics have been reliant on VI's for centuries. 

 

And a Virtual Intellgience isn't even alive, or pseudo-alive the way EDI and the Geth are. They are simply programs with pre-programmed personalities, but are incapable of deviating from programmed patterns of behaviors or forming opinions and acting on them. 

 

What organics rely on is essentially programs like Avina. 

 

Useful, but not entirely necessary. 

[Reorte]

OP, I disagree with something you said.

 

You say that organics have been reliant on AI's for centuries and centuries, or at least synthetics.

 

That is incorrect. AI's have been outlawed in Citadel space since the Geth were created, and only very few companies are licensed to research AI's. 

 

Rather, organics have been reliant on VI's for centuries. 

 

And a Virtual Intellgience isn't even alive, or pseudo-alive the way EDI and the Geth are. They are simply programs with pre-programmed personalities, but are incapable of deviating from programmed patterns of behaviors or forming opinions and acting on them. 

 

What organics rely on is essentially programs like Avina. 

 

Useful, but not entirely necessary. 

And VIs really aren't much different from what we've got now. Is Avina much more than Google with a user interface more capable of understanding exactly what you're asking it to find and using a more sophisticated engine to find the right answer?

[Monica21]

And VIs really aren't much different from what we've got now. Is Avina much more than Google with a user interface more capable of understanding exactly what you're asking it to find and using a more sophisticated engine to find the right answer?

 

Avina is Siri. Or Cortana. (hahaha! j/k about that last one.) And really, that's kind of why I hated the "they can kill you?" question you're able to ask the VI on Noveria. It's a dumb question and Shepard should be smart enough to know better. Of course, those are the questions that give expository answers for newer players.

[Reorte]

Avina is Siri. Or Cortana. (hahaha! j/k about that last one.) And really, that's kind of why I hated the "they can kill you?" question you're able to ask the VI on Noveria. It's a dumb question and Shepard should be smart enough to know better. Of course, those are the questions that give expository answers for newer players.

Yes, those are better examples (and also examples of things I avoid).

 

Back to Synthesis, it's something I really dislike but there's a germ of a good idea in there - if it was rather less out of the blue and didn't require accepting "anything can happen no matter how ridiculous" it wouldn't have been too out of place as an option at least.

[Kynare]

Professor X, on 25 Aug 2015 - 06:44 AM, said:

I find trying to prove some point to the Catalyst to be rather petty. It is kind of strange how to me much people want to "stick it" to him rather than just dismiss his opinion as just that -- an opinion. I do happen to agree, but that is largely irrelevant.
 
I believe in the inherent goodness competence of the galaxy, myself. That is exactly why I chose it. I think it there is great advancement potential in this if handled correctly, and since they came together and stood tall against the Reapers, I think they can do this too.
 
Also, I am pretty sure the Crucible is the reason for the geth/EDI thing, not glowboy.

 
I wasn't super into the concept of Synthesis as a future at first, actually, but I read the beginning of your personal canon and it's pretty darn good. I love the concept you used where a new form of technology is made based off of the new synthetic upgrade.
 
My main problem was seeing my Shepard's LI with completely different eyes (maybe I was just feeling emotional because it was the end of the game, but something about not seeing Kaidan's beautiful brown eyes was like, HELL NAW.)

 

The thought of forcing that change wigged me out a bit. But after reading some your story, it occurred to me that the people we know as Shepard wouldn't really change, they would just have access to a whole new trove of information and technology and "level the playing field", so to say. Maybe that's the real intention of Synthesis. I'm much more open to that kind of future when I look at it that way, even if I'm not quite sure how the Catalyst did it and why Shepard was needed to do it.

[dorktainian]

 The thought of forcing that change wigged me out a bit. But after reading some your story, it occurred to me that the people we know as Shepard wouldn't really change, they would just have access to a whole new trove of information and technology and "level the playing field", so to say. Maybe that's the real intention of Synthesis. I'm much more open to that kind of future when I look at it that way, even if I'm not quite sure how the Catalyst did it and why Shepard was needed to do it.

 

so the intergalactic mind and body rape of every sentient creature and all plant life  is suddenly OK?  Jeez.  Who gave Shepard the authority to enable that?  Nobody.

[Obadiah]

One of the things I liked most about the ending was that it was a revelation of a large problem that we'd otherwise rather not address or solve. The Catalyst described a systemic flaw in the collective behavior of life on a macro scale that would lead to organic annihilation. Its the kind of thing people really don't want to think about, let alone acknowledge. As a civilization, as we grow in power and ability, these are the kinds of problems that reveal themselves to us.

As far as I can tell, Destroy and Control are attempts at ignoring/side-stepping the problem and maintaining the status quo. Synthesis is the only option that attempts to address the problem head on.

[dorktainian]

One of the things I liked most about the ending was that it was a revelation of large problem that we'd otherwise rather not address or solve. The Catalyst described a systemic flaw in the collective behavior of life on a macro scale that would lead to organic annihilation. Its the kind of thing people really don't want to think about, let alone acknowledge. As a civilization, as a we grow in power and ability, these are the kinds of problems that reveal themselves to us.

As far as I can tell, Destroy and Control are attempts at ignoring/side-stepping the problem and maintaining the status quo. Synthesis is the only option that attempts to address the problem head on.

 

as far as i can tell synthesis utterly destroys organics by forcing them to rely on synthetics. Much the same as The Protheans relied on synthetic components and over time lost everything to technology.  Control is attempting to do something that (if you believe the reaper hype) is impossible, Destroy destroys reapers.  

 

Why do you want the reapers to survive?  Honestly i'm interested how you became indoctrinated.