79 réponses à ce sujet

[Varbind]

I would argue that you would not have to fundamentally change the game, you would simply have to add new maps and turn on friendly fire.  I played starcraft for many years and the ability to control balance simply by putting in specific maps designs is amazing.

Someone earlier said.... use 4 assassins, cloak and then bam 4 hidden blades on one person and they are out. Lets think about how a map could address that. If the map had people spawning at opposite ends with specific choke points that you could cover with mines/caltrops etc then this tactic would be mitigated or even made obsolete.

What is great about this approach is it opens up massive potential for the game with little effort. With some additional work (I do not know enough about their map system to comment on how much this would take) they could provide a map editor like starscraft removing the need for any future development effort and putting the onus on the community.

I hate first person shooters because they are too twitch based and I am too old for that, but DAMP pvp, old hell yes please!

[Texasmotiv]

Adding PvP would create a nightmare for class balance. Not worth it at all.

[Varbind]

Texasmotiv, you are assuming it would be a nightmare. I cannot say that it would be easy, just like I feel you are not justified in saying it would be impossible. They would have to prototype it and see, I hope they do.

[Domiel Angelus]

Texasmotiv, you are assuming it would be a nightmare. I cannot say that it would be easy, just like I feel you are not justified in saying it would be impossible. They would have to prototype it and see, I hope they do.

 

Its not an assumption, Varbind. You can look at games that added PvP later and see that it sort of ruins PvE to balance it for PvP purposes. Look at WoW as the biggest reference to this, they have destroyed perfectly good PvE abilities because PvP players learned how to use them to such a great effect that they had to nerf them into the ground. You can look at various other MMOs for this, only two have gotten it right so far (Aion and FFXIV) that have strictly PvP enabled powers that turn off during PvE play. 

[Da_Noobinator]

@shackleshotgun

 

Oops I should have been more clear, when I originally said that I'd love a friendly fire toggle in the settings menu, I actually meant the multiplayer lobby settings that the host gets, not the gameplay options menu that each player gets. By default it would be turned off (so it would not require any extra clicking for the majority who aren't looking for or hosting friendly fire enabled matches), and for those interested they can turn it on. I think this would be a far more streamlined method than adding maps with friendly fire enabled, especially since you'd probably also have to add a "Random - Friendly Fire Off," "Random - Friendly Fire On," and "Random - All" options for map selection as well, which is just getting ridiculously messy. Instead a simple friendly fire toggle with "On," "Off," or "Random," would do fine. Most people searching for a game would have it on default, "Off," and they would be matched up with most hosts who also have it off.

 

This all sounds fairly straightforward to me - just steal the mechanics from single player, copy the graphics from the map or difficulty toggle and rename it to Friendly Fire, position the new graphic in a new spot on the multiplayer lobby options menu, then add the appropriate matchmaking rules (essentially the same rules currently used for difficulty searches, except adapted for friendly fire being on, off, or random, instead of routine, threatening, perilous, nightmare, heartbreaker or random). However, as I'm not a programmer, there is probably something else I'm overlooking. I could only really support something like this if it would take less than a couple of days to implement - not because I'm not enthusiastic about it (I am ), but because I'm well aware I would be in the minority of users who would actually play with friendly fire turned on.
 

[Varbind]

Its not an assumption, Varbind. You can look at games that added PvP later and see that it sort of ruins PvE to balance it for PvP purposes. Look at WoW as the biggest reference to this, they have destroyed perfectly good PvE abilities because PvP players learned how to use them to such a great effect that they had to nerf them into the ground. You can look at various other MMOs for this, only two have gotten it right so far (Aion and FFXIV) that have strictly PvP enabled powers that turn off during PvE play. 

 

I will try to paraphrase what you are saying...

 

Someone tried it before and it didn't work therefore it should never be tried again.

 

I am a software developer and all I can say is this. The bar for what people can accomplish moves incredibly quickly, more quickly than any other field. You have to learn from history while still looking at achieving what others failed at before. If you don't do that you won't have a very successful career. I will try to find examples of games that succeeded where others failed in the past, I know there are many but I will have to do a big of digging.

 

TLDR. I do not think your argument is a valid reason to not try this.

 

EDIT:

 

Additionally your cite two MMO's that tried to accomplish this, that is of course apples/oranges etc etc.

[Beerfish]

Would love to see pvp.  Not that I would play it much at all but would love to see some of the best of the best who battle in threads on here actually battle in game.  I'd actually watch those youtubes.

[Silversmurf]

Not that I would play it much at all

 

and there it is right there.....noone would  

 

(except a few trying it the first week)

 

Not a worthwhile investment for the team.

[Varbind]

but would love to see some of the best of the best who battle in threads on here actually battle in game.  I'd actually watch those youtubes.

 

You are forgetting this. Hell Starcraft formed professional leagues so that people could simply watch others play. I am not saying that pvp in this game could match that but if it even achieved a small percentage it would be huge.

[Beerfish]

and there it is right there.....noone would  

 

(except a few trying it the first week)

 

Not a worthwhile investment for the team.

Would have to see how it was constructed, a lot of people like pvp, I know, i know a 'non desirable' crowd but there are a lot of people that like to play that Halo thing.

[Texasmotiv]

I will try to paraphrase what you are saying...

 

Someone tried it before and it didn't work therefore it should never be tried again.

 

I am a software developer and all I can say is this. The bar for what people can accomplish moves incredibly quickly, more quickly than any other field. You have to learn from history while still looking at achieving what others failed at before. If you don't do that you won't have a very successful career. I will try to find examples of games that succeeded where others failed in the past, I know there are many but I will have to do a big of digging.

 

TLDR. I do not think your argument is a valid reason to not try this.

 

EDIT:

 

Additionally your cite two MMO's that tried to accomplish this, that is of course apples/oranges etc etc.

 

I suppose Its not so much that it's doomed to fail but that there is no point to it. The game is not balanced around players killing eachother so they would have to rebalance everything. Unless it was entirely separate this would affect the PVE aspect so THAT would have to be rebalanced.

 

For example, an auto attack crit with the hakkon valor sword is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2k, enough to one shot most players.

 

If they are going to do it, they should just do it as a different game because they would already be doing enough work to make a whole separate product anyway.

[Proto]

I suppose Its not so much that it's doomed to fail but that there is no point to it. The game is not balanced around players killing eachother so they would have to rebalance everything. Unless it was entirely separate this would affect the PVE aspect so THAT would have to be rebalanced.

 

For example, an auto attack crit with the hakkon valor sword is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2k, enough to one shot most players.

 

If they are going to do it, they should just do it as a different game because they would already be doing enough work to make a whole separate product anyway.

 

If it was PVP it would have to be something other than actual "Duels"

 

I think it would be pretty freaking fun to have a Race-like game. For example, groups each have a base. There are trebuchet's guarded by specific combinations of mobs. Teams have to compete to get to the trebuchet's and fire them. Certain trebuchet's do more damage than others to the opposing teams base(dragon HP pool). Teams have to decide which ones to bee-line for, whether they should divide and conquer(split up) or stick together. 

[Varbind]

Great idea Proto. This is what I was trying to get to, a constructive discussion on what is possible

 

If balancing existing abilities is going to be difficult create new methods (like the trebuchet in Proto's example) for the teams to fight it out. I am sure we could some up with a plethora of new/interesting ways to do this while leaving the existing PVE balance untouched.

 

The race concept is also interesting, do you guys remember in WOW where competing guilds were doing PVE raids at the exact same time? People would live stream it to see who could complete it first. Imagine if they did something that simple here? Two competing teams of 4 and you could actually watch it.

 

Some really interesting stuff finally coming out

[Proto]

Realistically, I don't think PVP will ever be introduced. But, it could be done and would probably be super fun. It would just have to be objective based. Think clearing a zone 5 encounter, first team to clear it gets to shoot a trebuchet. Then next round is a different encounter, rinse repeat until someones base(dragon HP pool) is destroyed.

 

The actual "race" can already be done by just recording runs and posting results / end screen PB time. Due to the low amount of players I don't think any investment in an option in-game to do this would be worthwhile.

[Beerfish]

I've wanted to take Proto down mano o mano for some time......yeah....for some time indeed.

[Wavebend]

Realistically, I don't think PVP will ever be introduced.

 

[Proto]

 

Couldn't help at least throwing it out there. You know you've thought about it at some point. Who doesn't have nostalgia when they think back to the WoW days before Arenas. Warsong Gulch was some great fun.

[Proto]

I've wanted to take Proto down mano o mano for some time......yeah....for some time indeed.

 

Woah. I didn't know Geezers took things so personal. You know I just tried to repost my "Not young. Not Dead. Somewhere in between." image and the forum isn't having any of it. 

 

We're still homies right?

 

[Beerfish]

Woah. I didn't know Geezers took things so personal. You know I just tried to repost my "Not young. Not Dead. Somewhere in between." image and the forum isn't having any of it. 

[Wavebend]

Couldn't help at least throwing it out there. You know you've thought about it at some point. Who doesn't have nostalgia when they think back to the WoW days before Arenas. Warsong Gulch was some great fun.

 

Runescape wilderness made me cry a few times

[Proto]

Link

 

I really need to watch some of these older sitcoms. Yes, I'm aware Seinfeld is a classic. That clip was greatness.

[Beerfish]

I really need to watch some of these older sitcoms. Yes, I'm aware Seinfeld is a classic. That clip was greatness.

He thinks Seinfeld is an old sitcom....

 

Mary Tyler Moore, WKRP, Barney Miller.....now those are old sitcoms  (And each one a total classic imo)

[Kalas Magnus]

Would love to see pvp.  Not that I would play it much at all but would love to see some of the best of the best who battle in threads on here actually battle in game.  I'd actually watch those youtubes.

make it cross platform and we'd have a good show.

[Domiel Angelus]

I will try to paraphrase what you are saying...

 

Someone tried it before and it didn't work therefore it should never be tried again.

 

I am a software developer and all I can say is this. The bar for what people can accomplish moves incredibly quickly, more quickly than any other field. You have to learn from history while still looking at achieving what others failed at before. If you don't do that you won't have a very successful career. I will try to find examples of games that succeeded where others failed in the past, I know there are many but I will have to do a big of digging.

 

TLDR. I do not think your argument is a valid reason to not try this.

 

EDIT:

 

Additionally your cite two MMO's that tried to accomplish this, that is of course apples/oranges etc etc.

 

I cited one that brought PvP in after it had an already set PvE base, which in my example was WoW. It is constantly having to rebalance PvE mechanics to a lot for PvP, in most cases crippling an ability for PvE because said ability could be exploited in the PvP environment. Many people forget that WoW didn't have PvP until many patches in, and it still forces balance changes that change the fundamental use of character abilities due to the possible exploitation in a PvP setting. I used WoW as my prime example for failing because I had played end game raids and PvP in it until Cataclysm (only leveled in Pandaria and couldn't stand another Orc-centric expansion with WoD) and every single time something 'broke' PvP the loud majority on the forums would whine and it would get nerfed 'to the ground'. 

 

The two that were successful in my example, Aion and Final Fantasy XIV, both started their games with PvP already worked in to their base mechanics and both have powers such as different attacks and healing abilities that don't work in PvE and thus don't need to be re-balanced unless they prove to be overpowered in PvP.  Aion at a certain point is almost strictly about PvP because the large middle area of the world is a PvP flagged zone and there's no avoiding it, FFXIV however has strict areas for PvP in the same way WoW has arenas and battlegrounds. 

 

Changing DA:I multiplayer that has not been built around any kind of PvP in the first place will change the game far more than people wanting PvP are expecting. Its the same reason when people kept bringing up a PvP environment in ME3MP they got shot down. Some people already find the balance changes being made (such as the Spirit Blade) being unreasonable because in the current scheme of things in a strictly PvE environment it wasn't hurting anyone to be 'overpowered'. There are many abilities that would have to be reworked entirely for them to work in PvP such as the fact that you can currently see player characters in stealth or as some other people have brought up the damage values on certain weapons would have to be reduced drastically, or the base hit points of each character would need to be brought up to compensate for that kind of damage. Some abilities would probably even have to be replaced for a PvP environment due to the sheer amount of whining you'd receive from people having to fight against certain kits all the time. 

 

Also the balance changes involved in changing the game to PvP wouldn't just affect those playing MP, they spill over into the SP campaign and there are many people that don't play MP at all that these changes would affect. In MMOs there isn't a single player experience at stake, where as with both the current Dragon Age and Mass Effect 3 with its Multiplayer many changes in Multiplayer had to be changed for Single Player as well. 

 

I don't see PvP in the future of DA:I but I could see it in later Bioware titles such as their still un-named new IP, Mass Effect: Andromeda or if/when there's a new Dragon Age. 

 

 

TL:DR The game isn't made to be a PvP experience and doesn't really have a basing in it. Adding PvP would force changes upon the Single Player portion of the game and affect people that don't play MP (which the balance changes affect now anyhow) and those that want to play MP but don't want anything to do with PvP. Most likely not going to happen for this game but maybe in a different Bioware title. 

[StUnNeR H2K]

They will have to fix the connections before adding PvP.

Also don't think they balanced the game for PvP, and don't want PvP to change the multiplayer characters abilities.