165 réponses à ce sujet

[Bibdy]

miltos33 wrote...

I wouldn't like to get into a Bethesda vs. Bioware debate because I equally like them and I think that it is really good to have them both in the rpg market.

I would just like to say that Morrowind was released in the same year with Neverwinter Nights and Fallout 3 was released in the same year with Mass Effect PC and both games by Bethesda became extremely popular and sold more copies than their competitors, not to say that this has anything to do with the quality of the games of course.

That's not a fair comparison between Fallout 3 on multiple platforms and Neverwinter and Mass Effect on just the PC, what about the Mass Effect console sales?

Bethesda had the console advantage, which was smart. But, Bioware have obviously picked up on that and are now joining the movement of developing games on multiple platforms.

[Abriael_CG]

miltos33 wrote...
I would just like to say that Morrowind was released in the same year with Neverwinter Nights and Fallout 3 was released in the same year with Mass Effect PC and both games by Bethesda became extremely popular and sold more copies than their competitors, not to say that this has anything to do with the quality of the games of course.

Actually Neverwinter nights is much more well known to the masses that Morrowind, despite morrowind having been released on consoles while NWN didn't.

If you ask any gamer who Aribeth is, you have quite some chances to get a response. If you ask about any Morrowind character you'll most likely be met with awkward silence (part because the characters in Morrowind had nothing to romember them for, of course).

Fallout 3 got all it's popularity from the nostalgia that came with Fallout 1 and 2 (that have nothing to do with Bethesda, that actually insulted Interplay's IP with a lackluster story, compared to what came before). Mass Effect was a new IP and platform exclusive (while Fallout 3 was multiplat).
I'm ready to bet you that mass Effect 2 will obliterate Fallout 3, sales wise, despite the exclusivity.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 28 janvier 2010 - 05:51 .

[Tankkiller1337]

Abriael_CG wrote...

miltos33 wrote...

The fact that four years later people still compare every new rpg to Oblivion either in a positive or in a negative manner speaks for itself.

Actually most people compare every new RPG not to Oblivion, but to Baldur's gate. And when oblivion came out many noticed how lackluster it was compared to Baldur's. There simply wasn't much else to play in the way of fantasy RPGs.

Dragon Age is a great game and everything, but I really doubt that four
years from now people will be comparing the new rpgs to this game. By that time, the next Elder Scrolls game will most likely have become the new standard.

I seriously doubt that. Bethesda can't really compete with Bioware, not until they finally learn some storytelling (which, giving their track record, seems to be something outlandishly outside of their potential). Oblivion had it's nice convenient window of popularity because Bioware had been pretty much absent from the fantasy RPG market for a while between Neverwinter Nights and Dragon Age. Now they're back, things are different.

hmm funny. You pull the fanboy card on me, but who is bashing every other game in here in defence of Dragon Age? I know its easy to say that I am a bethesda Fanboy, but I've never said which one of the two games are better. Compare all our posts, who of us was rather subjective and defended a game with so much zeal and who said that both games have their niches?
I guess I should rather call YOU a fanboy and YES you should stay out of this thread. You aren't discussing anymore, you're just attacking everybody who criticizes Dragon Age or tries to defend Oblivion.

Why dont you just open a "Lets bash every other game who could be compared to Dragon Age, no opinions allowed"?
I think you would fit there more than here.


Maybe once again to read it out loud: I like both, Dragon Age aswell as Oblivion, Im bashing neither of them.

[Glorfindel7]

First, OB is far from perfect. In many ways MW was a better game. Many PC users (myself included) thought OB was simplified (nice) or dumb downed (less nice) for the console market. The main plot became fairly tedious (I hate those repetitive gates (well the gates are fine, it is the Oblivion side of the gates that gets repetitive)). Enhanced Daedric Invasion was a big help in adding interest to the main quest (which of course, one never has to start in a TES game). Hated the leveled enemy system; the FCOM mods took care of that. Now DA:O fans (of whom I am one) need to be careful on this one as DA:O also uses this and it provides the only hint of possible non-linearity in the game. Missed the guild rich world of MW (my character is 'good' - not a thief, certainly not an assassin (too bad, best quests in the vanilla game)). There was also a shortage of good quests, although most of the Daedra quests were good. This has been addressed, at least partially, by some excellent mods, though there is no really good Imperial Legion mod sadly. I, unlike many here, thought the scenery in vanilla OB was pretty good, although the IC and towns were too small, the province was too small and 'empty' (not enough farms, villages, etc) and climate change over the 10 miles or so of distance was, umm, not credible. Now mods have added entire additional provinces to the OB world, plus the SI expansion, and the world feels - and is - much bigger. Plus the UL and Better City projects have really improved these flaws. On the other hand, I can travel from one end of Ferelden to the other in 30 seconds which makes the area of Ferelden about 180 ft squared plus two forest paths, 2 Dalish camps, 1 ruined temple, 1 city... You get the idea. Tiny. OK, Abriael, won't get the idea but one feels he never gets an idea that is not his own. Too bad, I mostly agree with him and he is generally an intelligent poster. He just needs to look up 'fact' and 'opinion' so as to understand the difference.



Vanilla OB was a very good game; heavily modded OB is an engrossing, challenging, beautiful, great game - which still will not to be to everyone's taste. Some people need to understand that their tastes are not the sole arbitors of excellence.



Now DA:O is an excellent game of a very different style. But there is the main quest and a few not very interesting side quests. It feels claustrophobic and totally linear to OB fans. Will mods help? Yes, of course they will. DA:O is very short on non main quest content and that can be addressed by mods. OB had a number of serious flaws, e.g., 100s of similar dungeons? Well, after 100 or so have been customized by various mods, that is no longer true. Can the forced linearity be modded out of DA:O? I don't know, but I suspect not. Now that is not a necessity for those who prefer a tight story driven game with minimal degrees of freedom. But some of us will find that absence of freedom chafing. We want to interact with items that don't sparkle, we want to be able to leave the forest path and explore, we don't want to bribe our colleagues with cheesy presents so they will like us... We can thoroughly enjoy DA:O: Bioware has done a superb job in crafting it. I get that many don't see the limits as a flaw. Great. I get that vanilla OB was a very flawed game and the style does not appeal to many. But for me, there are just too many immersion breakers in DA:O for it to be a truly great game. My heavily modded version of OB is very close to being a great game. But that is an opinion, not a fact.

[Abriael_CG]

Tankkiller1337 wrote...

hmm funny. You pull the fanboy card on me, but who is bashing every other game in here in defence of Dragon Age?

I'm not the one ranting and raving on a personal level against someone that happens to like a different game. Or, thing even more laughable, demanding people that happen to differ to stay away from the thread. That, sir, is a stunt only a fanboy will pull.

I bring my opinions, the fact that you don't like them has no bearing on my right to post on this thread, despite the fact seems to infuriate you.

Why dont you just open a "Lets bash every other game who could be compared to Dragon Age, no opinions allowed"?

I'm extremely curious to see you quote where I said people aren't allowed to post their opinion. Here it seems that the only one that thinks someone shouldn't be allowed to post his is, mind you, you.

@Glorfindel: DA:O gives you the freedom to influence the story. In my opinion that's worth tons more than the fake freedom to travel a world that is so small in scale that it looks fake and completely breaks immersion.
In Oblivion you can't influence anything. It's not random that many, many people I know didn't even finish the main quest. There's simply no reason to, whatever they do, that quest will remain a lackluster waste of time.
And an RPG without a good story is simply an aberration.
Building a world is actually very easy. You put some mountains, some lakes, some random generic dungeons. Mind you, even a computer without any artistical sence can procedurally generate something just as good with very little direction (I have tons of landscape generating programs that achieve visually stunning results).
Breathing life into that world, giving it coherence and a detailed backstory is much, much harder, and that's where Bethesda fails miserably. You can fast travel in DA:O? Sure you can. This doesn't mean that Ferelden doesn't have a realistic size and sense of distance. That every place is different and reflects the cultures that dwell on it in an impeccable way. Every place feels unique.
I'm actually pretty sure that much, much more time, effort and talent went into designing DA:O's world than Oblivion's.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 28 janvier 2010 - 06:06 .

[miltos33]

Are you really saying there isn't enough room in the rpg market for more than one developer? As customers we can only benefit from the competition between the two studios. Besides, it is always nice to have distinct styles within the same genre. The strengths of one developer appear to be the weaknesses of the other and this is exactly the reason for their distinctive styles which make the current rpg market all the better and more interesting. It is unfair to expect Bethesda to give you a top story when they make sandbox games, like it is unfair for Bioware to expect them to give you a realistic virtual world when they make story driven games. But some people like Abriael seem to be concerned only with the weaknesses of one developer and the strengths of the other and that is of course a biased opinion.

[Abriael_CG]

miltos33 wrote...

Are you really saying there isn't enough room in the rpg market for more than one developer? As customers we can only benefit from the competition between the two studios. Besides, it is always nice to have distinct styles within the same genre. The strengths of one developer appear to be the weaknesses of the other and this is exactly the reason for their distinctive styles which make the current rpg market all the better and more interesting. It is unfair to expect Bethesda to give you a top story when they make sandbox games, like it is unfair for Bioware to expect them to give you a realistic virtual world when they make story driven games. But some people like Abriael seem to be concerned only with the weaknesses of one developer and the strengths of the other and that is of course a biased opinion.

It depends. Personally I feel that developers that can't even get good storytelling done aren't worth the slot they occupy in the market. Maybe Bethesda should develop some FPSs, it'd probably fit their style more and leave more market shares for better RPG developers (and that doesn't include just Bioware, there are many I could name, Bioware is just the best one).
Mind you, their games ARE glorified FPSs.

There isn't much to talk about if you want me to analyze Bethesda's strenghts. Their strenght is basically only the toolset, and what's done in the toolset (hell, I've done quite a lot with it myself) isn't really something to praise Bethesda for.

Simply put, Dragon Age stands easily on it's own legs. If it didn't have the toolset it would be an awesome game on it's own right. Bethesda's games? Without their toolset and the modding community they'd be nothing more than a passing note in gaming's history.
Basically Bethesda's basking in the light of their own lazyness and our own effort. Clever, but not something I can appreciate.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 28 janvier 2010 - 06:13 .

[Tankkiller1337]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Tankkiller1337 wrote...

hmm funny. You pull the fanboy card on me, but who is bashing every other game in here in defence of Dragon Age?

I'm not the one ranting and raving on a personal level against someone that happens to like a different game. Or, thing even more laughable, demanding people that happen to differ to stay away from the thread. That, sir, is a stunt only a fanboy will pull.

I bring my opinions, the fact that you don't like them has no bearing on my right to post on this thread, despite the fact seems to infuriate you.

Why dont you just open a "Lets bash every other game who could be compared to Dragon Age, no opinions allowed"?

I'm extremely curious to see you quote where I said people aren't allowed to post their opinion. Here it seems that the only one that thinks someone shouldn't be allowed to post his is, mind you, you.

Can't you just read my post? I dont prefer either of the two games, I like them both for what they are.
So you like Dragon Age more? Ok, opinion stated, now stop being butthurt to everyone here who doesnt want to give Dragon Age a ****** right away and let their opinions be valid aswell instead of trying to refute them at every possible corner.

Elitists like you are giving the community here a really bad name.

[SleeplessInSigil]

I never got into Oblivion myself, and I loved Dragon Age, but I began playing Fallout 3 for the first time after I completed DA, and that game absolutely brutalizes DA in many aspects.

Dragon Age: Origins vs. Fallout 3, in terms of atmosphere

Dragon Age: Origins vs. Fallout 3, in terms of music

I'm not even halfway done with FO3 but I've already put more hours into it than I did over 1-and-a-half playthroughs with DA, and enjoying every minute of it. <3

[purplesunset]

I'm going to quote myself here. Partly because I can be an arrogant douchebag who loves quoting himself,  partly because it is relevant to this thread, and partly because SleeplessInSigil is about to get his liver eaten raw by the Bioware fans here:

purplesunset wrote...

Dlokir wrote...


I could be wrong but I consider your OP quite flawed because of two points:

   
* The problem with Oblivion fans is they use a poorly designed game as the comparison standard. Oblivion is a rather badly designed game, they certainly targeted a too big size and didn't polished gameplay enough. For me that makes Oblivion fans posts rather boring.

Is it a fact that Oblivion is a "badly designed" game? Is it a fact that the fans' posts are "rather  boring?" Or is that just opinion.


I personally **DO NOT**  like Oblivion, but that does not mean that I can't understand the appeal of an open-ended game world (I  prefer Gothic 1 and 2 over the newer Bethesda games for open ended gameplay). Yet I've seen many responses in this thread where people say something like "Oblivion sucks because open-endedness sucks." How is this argument any more valid than saying "DA sucks because being railroaded sucks" ?

It's one thing to say, "I despise first person shooters with the  passion of a thousand suns,"  (this is a perfectly valid opinion) but quite another thing  to say "first person shooters are flawed by design and are necessarily bad. and the people who enjoy them are boring" (this is flawed and is confusing fact with opinion)

The discussion will only stagnate if fact and opinion are confused.

Modifié par purplesunset, 28 janvier 2010 - 06:41 .

[RedSocialKnight]

Oh my, this thread...



Dragon Age sucks compared to Final Fantasy, and Bioware sucks compared to Square-Enix!



The characters' hair barely gets 3 inches above their head at best! What kind of an RPG is that?



PROVE ME WRONG.

[Abriael_CG]

Tankkiller1337 wrote...
Can't you just read my post? I dont prefer either of the two games, I like them both for what they are.
So you like Dragon Age more? Ok, opinion stated, now stop being butthurt to everyone here who doesnt want to give Dragon Age a ****** right away and let their opinions be valid aswell instead of trying to refute them at every possible corner.

This is a discussion forum Tankkiller. In discussion forums people "discuss". Unfortunately there seem to be some people that think discussion is a bad thing. As I said to a couple others, if discussion is a problem for you, then maybe you should look into getting a blog. There you'll be able to impose your opinion on others all you want, and prevent them from talking back. Given your attitude, you must find that the very definition of heaven.

[Dr Bawbag]

Oblivion for me is probably the game i've wasted the most hours on and so much so, i don't think any game will ever come close to it in that respect. That said, i think the Oblivion i played and the Oblivion most people talk about in these discussion are two different beasts. I can fully appreciate why so many people weren't particularly taken with Oblivion out of the box as it really isn't the greatest in many respects. Shocking scaling, worthless quests that more often than not offer nothing but generic rewards/loots and those damn green and blue arrows that hold your hand every step of the way.



The Oblivion i played was heavily modded. For starters it had a working economy, more vibrant cites, the level was scaling all but removed, more difficult and rewarding quests, huge amount of new itemsand many npcs and quests added to the mix. I can safely say on one character I managed to accumulate over 200 hours without even handing the amulet over. In fact, I think i only ever completed the main quest once.



On the flip side of the coin, i could never get into the NWN series for some reason and whilst I appreciate different strokes for different people, those particular games haven't really had any play time.

[Hexsun]

Oblivion was an awesome game, but yeah, I never finished because the main story was way too repetetive. I also have a problem dealing with a game that says the end of the world is near, but sure, you go ahead and spend 6 months doing whatever comes to mind. Same thing in Dragon Age really, except when you try to leave Redcliffe.



Dragon Age is probably the best RPG ever, but it should be less linear to be honest.

[Tankkiller1337]

Dr Bawbag wrote...

Oblivion for me is probably the game i've wasted the most hours on and so much so, i don't think any game will ever come close to it in that respect. That said, i think the Oblivion i played and the Oblivion most people talk about in these discussion are two different beasts. I can fully appreciate why so many people weren't particularly taken with Oblivion out of the box as it really isn't the greatest in many respects. Shocking scaling, worthless quests that more often than not offer nothing but generic rewards/loots and those damn green and blue arrows that hold your hand every step of the way.

The Oblivion i played was heavily modded. For starters it had a working economy, more vibrant cites, the level was scaling all but removed, more difficult and rewarding quests, huge amount of new itemsand many npcs and quests added to the mix. I can safely say on one character I managed to accumulate over 200 hours without even handing the amulet over. In fact, I think i only ever completed the main quest once.

On the flip side of the coin, i could never get into the NWN series for some reason and whilst I appreciate different strokes for different people, those particular games haven't really had any play time.

Stop baiting Abriael it's not funny anymore to watch his trolling.


Ontopic: Pretty much the same as you. Story and compelling characters are one thing, but having the world full (yes full, learn2usemods or you wont get the same experience) full of Quests, characters and Dungeons.
I am sorry, the Dragon Age fans can say what they want, but a Side-Quest Line of the Quality of the Dark Brotherhood is just not yet achieved or maybe only via payable DLC.

@DrBawBag: NVM my first sentence, I just did it myself...

Modifié par Tankkiller1337, 28 janvier 2010 - 07:20 .

[Bibdy]

Tankkiller1337 wrote...

Stop baiting Abriel it's not funny anymore to watch his trolling.


Ontopic: Pretty much the same as you. Story and compelling characters are one thing, but having the world full (yes full, learn2usemods or you wont get the same experience) full of Quests, characters and Dungeons.
I am sorry, the Dragon Age fans can say what they want, but a Side-Quest Line of the Quality of the Dark Brotherhood is just not yet achieved or maybe only via payable DLC.

@DrBawBag: NVM my first sentence, I just did it myself...

So, you're comparing Oblivion + almost FOUR years of user-made content vs Dragon Age + 3 MONTHS of user made content.

Sounds fair.

[Abriael_CG]

Tankkiller1337 wrote...
Stop baiting Abriel it's not funny anymore to watch his trolling.

Funny how the only one baiting is you, since you bring up my name in relation to posts I have nothing to do with. He's actually right. Modded oblivion was a good game. The problem here is that modded oblivion is nothing to praise bethesda for. I don't think being extremely lazy so that modders have to fix the immense flaws of your games is anywhere praiseworthy.

Comparing out of the box DA:O with Oblivion with 4 years of modding over it it's laughable.
Comparing out of the box oblivion with out of the box DA:O sees Oblivion simply obliterated.

I am sorry, the Dragon Age fans can say what they want, but a Side-Quest Line of the Quality of the Dark Brotherhood is just not yet achieved or maybe only via payable DLC.

Lol. The dark brotherhood quest line is nothing short of lackluster, not to mention pretty niche.

[Tankkiller1337]

Allright, this is leading nowhere.



I am sorry Abriael if you feel attacked in any way by me, it wasn't meant so.

Let's just stop arguing we're tearing the whole thread apart. I like to be provocative from time to time so please excuse my behaviour. I just don't like to see games I've played that much and ivested so many time in them to be bashed like that, it makes me angry somehow.



Let's not derail this thread any further

[Abriael_CG]

Tankkiller1337 wrote...
Let's just stop arguing we're tearing the whole thread apart. I like to be provocative from time to time so please excuse my behaviour. I just don't like to see games I've played that much and ivested so many time in them to be bashed like that, it makes me angry somehow.

It's ok. For me it's exactly the opposite. What makes me a bit pissy is when a software house doesn't feel the need to actually deliver a decent product (or to fix it) because the modding community will do their work with them.

The appearence of most characters in Oblivion is a good example. The character designer should seriously be put against a wall and shot, but in the end it was the community to fix it. Did they learn from it and  given characters in Fallout 3 more variation in their appearence (And I mean having visually appealing people AND bad looking people, not the "everyone's an ugly mess that has been hit on his face with a ram when they were kids)?

No. No need to. There's the community that fixes it, so they didn't care.

[Bibdy]

Abriael_CG wrote...

It's ok. For me it's exactly the opposite. What makes me a bit pissy is when a software house doesn't feel the need to actually deliver a decent product (or to fix it) because the modding community will do their work with them.

The appearence of most characters in Oblivion is a good example. The character designer should seriously be put against a wall and shot, but in the end it was the community to fix it. Did they learn from it and  given characters in Fallout 3 more variation in their appearence (And I mean having visually appealing people AND bad looking people, not the "everyone's an ugly mess that has been hit on his face with a ram when they were kids)?

No. No need to. There's the community that fixes it, so they didn't care.

Give the community 4 years with any game complete with a toolset and they'll vastly improve on the thing. Its not fair to say the developers don't care about that stuff. The modding community doesn't have time constraints like developers do, and they aren't working for a paycheck - there's no motivation to have to cut corners to get things finished, even if you don't like the look of it. A modder can be as much of a perfectionist as they want. The only person they have to answer to, is themselves. A developer has to make sacrifices.

Its a shame you can't see the effort and work these companies put into these games, provide a toolset and let players dick around with it. It says to me that they care MORE about the player's experience (than developers who don't provide the toolset), because they would rather the community enjoy the game at its best potential, with extra and improved content, than try not to suffer the humility of being trumped by something the community built.

Bethesda just have their way of doing things, which appeals to a lot of people. In that process they tend to sacrifice story and substance for a big sandbox world. I prefer Bioware's method of a story-driven 'pick your path adventure' book, but I still bought both games, as did you, I imagine.

Will you look back on DA:O in 3-4 years with the same kind of scorn? That Bioware cut corners to release only 10% of the total content that will be available, because the entire modding community generated the other 90% of it, changing all kinds of things in the game from texture resolutions, combat mechanics, the UI, character faces, add tons of quests, dialogue and so on and so forth, and that players literally built the game and fixed it for them?

I can guarantee you that no software developer has ever been 100% satisfied with their product the day it goes gold, so they try to improve on it the next time around. But, the next time around they're still subject to the same kind of time constraints.

Its disheartening to see someone act so callously towards the effort these guys put into the game. If they never released the game in the first place, complete with a usable toolset, there would never be any modding content at all, and you wouldn't be enjoying either game at all, let alone to the same degree.

Modifié par Bibdy, 28 janvier 2010 - 07:46 .

[hazelrock]

I LOVE Oblivion(360 Un-modded) and have played for over 400 hrs. and will play lots more. I actually broke out my old PS1 and started level grinding on Final Fantasy Tactics again this week. I like DA:Origins and the depth of story & characters are rich, almost to the point that I think it is more of an interactive book than a game. Each game has it's own strengths and weaknesses as all games do. Both games out of the box there seems like much more to do in Oblivion in my opinion.

[Tankkiller1337]

Bibdy wrote...

Abriael_CG wrote...

It's ok. For me it's exactly the opposite. What makes me a bit pissy is when a software house doesn't feel the need to actually deliver a decent product (or to fix it) because the modding community will do their work with them.

The appearence of most characters in Oblivion is a good example. The character designer should seriously be put against a wall and shot, but in the end it was the community to fix it. Did they learn from it and  given characters in Fallout 3 more variation in their appearence (And I mean having visually appealing people AND bad looking people, not the "everyone's an ugly mess that has been hit on his face with a ram when they were kids)?

No. No need to. There's the community that fixes it, so they didn't care.

Give the community 4 years with any game complete with a toolset and they'll vastly improve on the thing. Its not fair to say the developers don't care about that stuff. The modding community doesn't have time constraints like developers do, and they aren't working for a paycheck - there's no motivation to have to cut corners to get things finished, even if you don't like the look of it. A modder can be as much of a perfectionist as they want. The only person they have to answer to, is themselves. A developer has to make sacrifices.

Its a shame you can't see the effort and work these companies put into these games, provide a toolset and let players dick around with it. It says to me that they care MORE about the player's experience (than developers who don't provide the toolset), because they would rather the community enjoy the game at its best potential, with extra and improved content, than try not to suffer the humility of being trumped by something the community built.

Bethesda just have their way of doing things, which appeals to a lot of people. In that process they tend to sacrifice story and substance for a big sandbox world. I prefer Bioware's method of a story-driven 'pick your path adventure' book, but I still bought both games, as did you, I imagine.

Will you look back on DA:O in 3-4 years with the same kind of scorn? That Bioware cut corners to release only 10% of the total content that will be available, because the entire modding community generated the other 90% of it, changing all kinds of things in the game from texture resolutions, combat mechanics, the UI, character faces, add tons of quests, dialogue and so on and so forth, and that players literally built the game and fixed it for them?

I can guarantee you that no software developer has ever been 100% satisfied with their product the day it goes gold, so they try to improve on it the next time around. But, the next time around they're still subject to the same kind of time constraints.

Its disheartening to see someone act so callously towards the effort these guys put into the game. If they never released the game in the first place, complete with a usable toolset, there would never be any modding content at all, and you wouldn't be enjoying either game at all, let alone to the same degree.

I couldn't have it said better tbh.

[Wesley Wyndam Price]

You all are wasting your time arguing with him. Just ignore him and move on, otherwise he will start stalking you in other threads.

I LOVE Oblivion(360 Un-modded) and have played for over 400 hrs. and will play lots more. I actually broke out my old PS1 and started level grinding on Final Fantasy Tactics again this week. I like DA:Origins and the depth of story & characters are rich, almost to the point that I think it is more of an interactive book than a game. Each game has it's own strengths and weaknesses as all games do. Both games out of the box there seems like much more to do in Oblivion in my opinion

I agree.  Oblivion is like an open ended book where you write your own story.  Dragon Age is a set book, sort of choose-your-own-adventure type.  Both are great in their own right and have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Modifié par Wesley Wyndam Price, 28 janvier 2010 - 08:12 .

[bconk55]

Monica21 wrote...

illerianna wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

DOHdragon2009 wrote...
You can find the right spot and just watch the sun come up if you like.

I'm sorry to single out this quote, but what purpose does my character have in watching the sun come up? Why would she care? This is too reminiscent of people who made up "routines" for their character, like making the PC go to sleep every night, eating three solid meals a day and having a bath in the morning. It's not driven by the game, it's driven by the player's need to have something to do.

Good RPGs are not about the player, they're about the character.

And must everything be action-packed, "OHS NOEZ! TEH WURLD IS ENDING ASDFGHJKL;'"?

No. I guess your character is a "I must haves blud and guts AHMAHGAWD action", and that's fine, but none of mine are. Watching the sunset with a favourite companion is something meaningful to me. Much like Alistair said with his rose, "It's good to find something beautiful amidst all this darkness". It is not always "because the player needs something to do", not at all. It IS a Role-Playing Game, and in MY role, amidst all the blood and the impending doom, I'd much rather be able to sit back and connect with my character or companions. So please, don't generalize all the "fluff" as something because a player is bored.

At least for me, it's something I enjoy doing, and your post just came off as "If you don't play like I do, you're an idiot and a fail gamer".

Wow, that's exactly what I said! No, wait, it isn't. The difference with Alistair's rose is that it has a context and it's part of the story. It creates emotional attachment to that character and to your PC meaning that it will color your responses and how you handle certain situations. There's a difference between your character connecting with companions and the player connecting with an unresponsive world.

Sure, there are tons of differences. Probably some similarities too. But the only one thing that really matters is this: if the person playing enjoys it.. Some people find enjoyment in an "unresponsive world", just as others do in a completely scripted character.

[illerianna]

Tankkiller1337 wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

Abriael_CG wrote...

It's ok. For me it's exactly the opposite. What makes me a bit pissy is when a software house doesn't feel the need to actually deliver a decent product (or to fix it) because the modding community will do their work with them.

The appearence of most characters in Oblivion is a good example. The character designer should seriously be put against a wall and shot, but in the end it was the community to fix it. Did they learn from it and  given characters in Fallout 3 more variation in their appearence (And I mean having visually appealing people AND bad looking people, not the "everyone's an ugly mess that has been hit on his face with a ram when they were kids)?

No. No need to. There's the community that fixes it, so they didn't care.

Give the community 4 years with any game complete with a toolset and they'll vastly improve on the thing. Its not fair to say the developers don't care about that stuff. The modding community doesn't have time constraints like developers do, and they aren't working for a paycheck - there's no motivation to have to cut corners to get things finished, even if you don't like the look of it. A modder can be as much of a perfectionist as they want. The only person they have to answer to, is themselves. A developer has to make sacrifices.

Its a shame you can't see the effort and work these companies put into these games, provide a toolset and let players dick around with it. It says to me that they care MORE about the player's experience (than developers who don't provide the toolset), because they would rather the community enjoy the game at its best potential, with extra and improved content, than try not to suffer the humility of being trumped by something the community built.

Bethesda just have their way of doing things, which appeals to a lot of people. In that process they tend to sacrifice story and substance for a big sandbox world. I prefer Bioware's method of a story-driven 'pick your path adventure' book, but I still bought both games, as did you, I imagine.

Will you look back on DA:O in 3-4 years with the same kind of scorn? That Bioware cut corners to release only 10% of the total content that will be available, because the entire modding community generated the other 90% of it, changing all kinds of things in the game from texture resolutions, combat mechanics, the UI, character faces, add tons of quests, dialogue and so on and so forth, and that players literally built the game and fixed it for them?

I can guarantee you that no software developer has ever been 100% satisfied with their product the day it goes gold, so they try to improve on it the next time around. But, the next time around they're still subject to the same kind of time constraints.

Its disheartening to see someone act so callously towards the effort these guys put into the game. If they never released the game in the first place, complete with a usable toolset, there would never be any modding content at all, and you wouldn't be enjoying either game at all, let alone to the same degree.

I couldn't have it said better tbh.

Re-QFT

The DA toolset has been out for, what, 3 months? And the community has already polished up MANY, MANY areas of the game. More quests, better character faces, more character customization options, more skills, dialogue fixes, tactics upgrades, harder difficulties, more icons, better looking textures, a plethora of better body options, Blender scripts... The list goes on and on and on and on.

But, I guess because it's a BioWare game, they can do no wrong and you still ****** to it at night? I can't play the game without some mods, and I know others can't (Even something as simple as the More Hairstyles mod by kzelsama already has 95,000 or so downloads, and that's on one modding site alone!). Because people want more hair, does that mean the game is a failing POS? Because that is the logic you apply to Bethesda games.

They are both amazing, well-selling game developers. I think that speaks for itself.

Bibdy, I think I'm in love with you.