80 réponses à ce sujet

[MidnightWolf]

Hello all.
This is something which has been bothering me for a while now, more so since Descent, what with the Darkspawn.
Anyway, all this Darkspawn fighting got me thinking more about Carel and her foolish plan to kill the Old Gods before they rise as Archdemons.
What bothers me about this is: 1) They aren't Archdemons yet, so what makes her believe Wardens can kill them?
2) The Wardens are Tainted....all be it slightly differently to Darkspawn.....but wouldn't they be running the risk of turning the Old Gods into Archdemons once they found them? Or was that the plan?
The Architect -whom we now know to be a Magister, and also Tainted slightly differently- tried something 'funny' with Urthemiel and look how that turned out.

This whole Warden business seems completely idiotic, and is one of the few points in the story I dislike. Because Carels logic behind her decision makes zero sense....at least to me.
Thanks for reading

[Vertrix]

I totaally agree with you.  Also, where the heck has the architect gone? I am pretty sure he would have stood against corypheus.
Also, it is pretty idiotic that hawke's brother/sister and the hero of ferelden had no part in that, since they were both (or could be both)wardens. This game is full of plot holes, in my opinion.

[Ariella]

Hello all.
This is something which has been bothering me for a while now, more so since Descent, what with the Darkspawn.
Anyway, all this Darkspawn fighting got me thinking more about Carel and her foolish plan to kill the Old Gods before they rise as Archdemons.
What bothers me about this is: 1) They aren't Archdemons yet, so what makes her believe Wardens can kill them?
2) The Wardens are Tainted....all be it slightly differently to Darkspawn.....but wouldn't they be running the risk of turning the Old Gods into Archdemons once they found them? Or was that the plan?
The Architect -whom we now know to be a Magister, and also Tainted slightly differently- tried something 'funny' with Urthemiel and look how that turned out.
This whole Warden business seems completely idiotic, and is one of the few points in the story I dislike. Because Carels logic behind her decision makes zero sense....at least to me.
Thanks for reading

The short version is that the idea of every warden dying was a trigger event. A Warden's extra special nightmare. So she wasn't rational. Add whatever suggestions the Wardens were getting from the Nightmare demon mix and you have extra special stupid.

[Vertrix]

Also, i find it extremely hard to believe that ALL the wardens, hearing the call ALL AT ONCE, didn;t think it was weird and investigated it. After all, hero of ferelden did it. Why the hell all others didn't? Were they all idiots?

[Just My Moniker]

That was kinda the point.

 

Clarel and alot of the wardens were scared out of their wits by thinking that they were hearing their Calling, so many of them decided to try and take out the Archdemons before all the Wardens got wiped out.

 

It's kind of like a Hail Mary. It was the only thing they....well Clarel...could think of doing. The idea itself isn't quite stupid, but more the way they were going to try to achieve it.

[Ariella]

Also, i find it extremely hard to believe that ALL the wardens, hearing the call ALL AT ONCE, didn;t think it was weird and investigated it. After all, hero of ferelden did it. Why the hell all others didn't? Were they all idiots?

Group think. And Stroud/Loghain/Alistair did, but from what's been said, it makes it hard to think. This song continiously in the back of your mind.

[katerinafm]

It was a decision made out of desperation because they thought they were all dying all at once. Also the majority of them was influenced by Corypheus.

 

But the Wardens have been shown under a completely different light since Origins. In Origins we were heroes, and in other games the Wardens are made out to be practically a stupid organization. Same with the elves.

[MidnightWolf]

I totaally agree with you.  Also, where the heck has the architect gone? I am pretty sure he would have stood against corypheus.
Also, it is pretty idiotic that hawke's brother/sister and the hero of ferelden had no part in that, since they were both (or could be both)wardens. This game is full of plot holes, in my opinion.

I totally agree about the Architect. I don't believe for a second that he'd go along with Corypheus' plans. Plus, unlike Corypheus, the Architect is a fascinating character.

[Vertrix]

Then why the wardens of weisshaupt didn't act the same? That was kind of nonsense.
Something that affects the wardens, affects ALL of them or NONE. Not half way.

[thats1evildude]

1) Not all the Wardens were affected. Only Wardens in Ferelden and Orlais actually heard the false Calling, and there's some indication that Nightmare exempted certain Wardens, such as King Alistair.

 

2) The plan is borne out of desperation. The affected Wardens all believe they're dying, and if they do, then who will protect southern Thedas when a new Blight inevitably occurs? And it IS inevitable, unless someone comes up with a way to stop it.

 

3) Assuming it wasn't all a set-up by a servant of Corypheus, how do you know the plan wouldn't work? Do you know, with certainty, that the Old Gods can't be killed before they become Archdemons? Do you know with certainty that contact with a Warden could turn an Old God into an Archdemon? And even if it did, wouldn't it be better to be standing right by with an army ready to kill the thing?

[MidnightWolf]

Also, i find it extremely hard to believe that ALL the wardens, hearing the call ALL AT ONCE, didn;t think it was weird and investigated it. After all, hero of ferelden did it. Why the hell all others didn't? Were they all idiots?

This bothered me too., that no one thought it a tad strange that even new recruits were hearing the Calling. Except -as someone above pointed out- Hawkes Warden friend.

[Vertrix]

1) Not all the Wardens were affected. Only Wardens in Ferelden and Orlais actually heard the false Calling, and there's some indication that Nightmare exempted certain Wardens, such as King Alistair. [/quote]

well, what are those indications? I never encoutnered any that could indicates that.

 

 

 

 

2) The plan is borne out of desperation. The affected Wardens all believe they're dying, and if they do, then who will protect southern Thedas when a new Blight inevitably occurs? And it IS inevitable, unless someone comes up with a way to stop it.

Honestly, that was a cheap explanation. A VERY cheap. Wardens arent peasans. They are the best of the ebst. And being elite is not only a physical fact, but mental, too....What the game makes it seems, is that they are all scared children that at the very first hint of danger panic and do crap. Really? Those are the saviours and the protectors of the world? MEH!
As hardened fighters, they are supposed to have mental discipline, and not panicking like that. Expecially not panicking like that because of something that clearly is not meant to be. Also, you must consider that, even though they didn't know what corypheus was, they did know he existed. And thus, they just should have known his powers, since they trapped him once.

No, sorry, but that part of the game in pretty much nonsense, in my opinion
 

Looks like i suck with group quoting, lol....whatever

[Reznore57]

I just heard "army of demons " and I started to laugh.

It was all completly stupid beyond belief , and no being desperate doesn't explain it.

Only the wardens from the South were affected by the Calling , there's two archdemons left , in theory there's one in the Western Approach...but still before going all Kamikaze , you'd think they would have reached the other warden in Weisshaupt.

 

To explain the level of stupid , the warden in the South all start to hear the calling...they panic.

So far , so good.

Now instead of reaching out to Weishaupt , they get in touch with a random Tevinter magister who just happens to be there.

The dude says "let your mages kill your warriors , so you can bind demons with blood magic , go into the Deep Roads and Slay the archdemon".

.....

There's so many wrong with this plan .

First you need to dig to get to an Old God , so who's going to dig?The demons?

Then there's the darkspawn , near an old god there are legion.

Throwing demons at them is fine...but you need to keep control over those demons all the time.

Lost control of a bunch of demons , and chances are things will go downhill fast.

You'd have to fight darkspawn , demons , and abomination.

 

Then you'd have to find the other old god and do the same.

 

All those people had to do is send a courrier...

[thats1evildude]

The Wardens in The Last Flight have no idea what's going on with the southern members of their order; they just know that Wardens are mysteriously disappearing. And the Hero of Ferelden never hears the false Calling. I don't know that King Alistair isn't hearing it, but there's no indication that he is, and you'd think that would warrant a message to the Inquisition or something.

 

Also, how would you have the Wardens react to this false Calling, exactly? If not march into the Deep Roads with an army to back them up, then what? What were they supposed to do in that situation?

 

Let's assume for the sake of argument that this was a real Calling, and the Wardens were really dying. Assume that Erimond was not a servant of Corypheus, and the blood magic ritual had no side effect. Are you saying that it still would have been a stupid plan? That the Wardens should have just laid down and died, or just committed mass suicide, leaving southern Thedas defenceless against the darkspawn?

[Vertrix]

The Wardens in The Last Flight have no idea what's going on with the southern members of their order; they just know that Wardens are mysteriously disappearing. And the Hero of Ferelden never hears the false Calling. I don't know that King Alistair isn't hearing it, but there's no indication that he is, and you'd think that would warrant a message to the Inquisition or something.

 

Also, how would you have the Wardens react to this false Calling, exactly? If not march into the Deep Roads, then what? What were they supposed to do in that situation?

Listen.....honestly, i have been in the army in my country, and i assure you, a soldier might have fear, that;s right. But he will NOT panic anywhere close to what they did in this game. If soldiers are allowed to do random crap, it means that their leader is very very very very bad.
This works the other way, too, though. If a leader starts doing crazy crap, it is absurd to think that ALL of his/her subordinates will obey in silence. At the very least, 2 factions would have been formed between the wardens. And anyway, it is absurd that the best fighters in thedas panic like this anyway,  like reznore already said.

[Reznore57]

The Wardens in The Last Flight have no idea what's going on with the southern members of their order; they just know that Wardens are mysteriously disappearing. And the Hero of Ferelden never hears the false Calling. I don't know that King Alistair isn't hearing it, but there's no indication that he is, and you'd think that would warrant a message to the Inquisition or something.

 

Also, how would you have the Wardens react to this false Calling, exactly? If not march into the Deep Roads, then what? What were they supposed to do in that situation?

 

I don't know warn every human nation something fishy is going on first?

I mean what's the point of a mass suicide who has close to zero chance of sucess without any back up plan.

No one knew what they were doing .

Imagine if it was really an archdemon and something terrible was about to happen , chances are  most of the wardens would be dead with an archdemons , darkspawn , and an army of demons on the loose....

[Ariella]

Listen.....honestly, i have been in the army in my country, and i assure you, a soldier might have fear, that;s right. But he will NOT panic anywhere close to what they did in this game.

Real world soldiers aren't conditioned to think that when they hear whispers in their head, the Blight is starting to take them. Real World soldiers aren't told they are the only thing standing between Thedas and the End Times.

Real world soldiers aren't cut off from friends and family which keeps them from being grounded in the world.

The Wardens could be seen as a cult as much as anything else.

[Vertrix]

Real world soldiers aren't conditioned to think that when they hear whispers in their head, the Blight is starting to take them. Real World soldiers aren't told they are the only thing standing between Thedas and the End Times.

Real world soldiers aren't cut off from friends and family which keeps them from being grounded in the world.

The Wardens could be seen as a cult as much as anything else.

Actually, they are, in a certain measure. But that is not the point, anyway.....The point is that whoever serves in a whatever army, is trained not to give in to fear. If you are in special forces, and Grey Wardens can be considered that way, panicking is NOT an option. You will do what you must do, no matter what.
And even if you give in to fear, anywya, you are trained not to do it like normal people. So you won't start screaming and running in circles (and in this game, i swear, it looks like they did), but you act more carefully. Maybe, you will flee. But you DON'T give in to desperation.

[MidnightWolf]

I don't know warn every human nation something fishy is going on first?
I mean what's the point of a mass suicide who has close to zero chance of sucess without any back up plan.
No one knew what they were doing .
Imagine if it was really an archdemon and something terrible was about to happen , chances are  most of the wardens would be dead with an archdemons , darkspawn , and an army of demons on the loose....

This.
They warned -as far as we know- no one what was happening, nor asked for help from other nations. I absolutely LOVE Adament and the Fade quests......but come on? The whole "Let's dig us an Old God so we can kill it with Demons" is just plain stupid. Makes me wonder what the writers were sniffing when they wrote this.

[Jester]

I totally agree about the Architect. I don't believe for a second that he'd go along with Corypheus' plans. Plus, unlike Corypheus, the Architect is a fascinating character.

Architect wanted to unleash to Taint upon ALL people of Thedas, turning those who survive into ghoulified Wardens, resembling Darkspawn, and killing the rest, so the Darkspawn can coexist with them without aggression after Old Gods are slained.

 

I'd rather have Corypheus succeed, than Architect. 

 

I'm also quite sure, that while Architect cannot directly control tainted creatures like Corypheus can, he can make them more vulnerable to his machinations and suggestions - Wardens close to their Calling, like Bregan and Genevieve are easily swayed by his persuasion, while recently Joined Wardens, like Duncan were not conviced by him. 

Bregan, after Architect accelerated the Taint in him (fully ghoulifying him), even agreed to his plan of exposing every person to the Blight, even though hundreds of thousands would die. 

Similarly, Utha obeys him till the very end, even attacking other Wardens in his service.

 

Architect would probably support Corypheus, if he would agree to solve the issue with the Blights, once he becomes a god.

He supported him once before after all, even if he doesn't remember (or pretends, that he doesn't remember). 

[thats1evildude]

This works the other way, too, though. If a leader starts doing crazy crap, it is absurd to think that ALL of his/her subordinates will obey in silence. At the very least, 2 factions would have been formed between the wardens. And anyway, it is absurd that the best fighters in thedas panic like this anyway,  like reznore already said.

 

They didn't all obey. Stroud/Alistair/Loghain didn't. And some of the other Wardens did try to resist, notably Warden Chernoff and his subordinates.

 

I don't know warn every human nation something fishy is going on first?

I mean what's the point of a mass suicide who has close to zero chance of sucess without any back up plan.

 

That would involve telling the other nations about the Joining, which is supposed to be a secret.

 

Yes, they probably should have tried to do more research, but the plan wasn't a bad one. If it hadn't all been a set-up, it could very well have worked.

 

The only reason the Wardens haven't tried to kill the Old Gods is because of the army of darkspawn blocking the way. But if you could counter that with an army of demons, then maybe the plan would work.

[Ariella]

Actually, they are, in a certain measure. But that is not the point, anyway.....The point is that whoever serves in a whatever army, is trained not to give in to fear. If you are in special forces, and Grey Wardens can be considered that way, panicking is NOT an option. You will do what you must do, no matter what.
And even if you give in to fear, anywya, you are trained not to do it like normal people. So you won't start screaming and running in circles (and in this game, i swear, it looks like they did), but you act more carefully. Maybe, you will flee. But you DON'T give in to desperation.

I have doubts any military officer is told over and over that you are the last defense versus the end of the world.

Trying to compare the Wardens to any regular military is futile, don't bother. These people aren't heroes, they aren't picked to be the best of the best, many are conscripted, a lot are criminals. The only thing that matters is that you survive the joining, and then they have a leash on you.

Listen to Hawke and the Warden companion's talk. The Wardens can't concieve of a world that could do without them. They've spent a good portion of their lives being told it's all on them. And that is all they have.

Add to that whatever else the Nightmare might be whispering, and the fact they've been indulged by everyone for so long...boom.

[MidnightWolf]

Architect wanted to unleash to Taint upon ALL people of Thedas, turning those who survive into ghoulified Wardens, resembling Darkspawn, and killing the rest, so the Darkspawn can coexist with them without aggression after Old Gods are slained.
 
I'd rather have Corypheus succeed, than Architect. 
 
I'm also quite sure, that while Architect cannot directly control tainted creatures like Corypheus can, he can make them more vulnerable to his machinations and suggestions - Wardens close to their Calling, like Bregan and Genevieve are easily swayed by his persuasion, while recently Joined Wardens, like Duncan were not conviced by him. 
Bregan, after Architect accelerated the Taint in him (fully ghoulifying him), even agreed to his plan of exposing every person to the Blight, even though hundreds of thousands would die. 
Similarly, Utha obeys him till the very end, even attacking other Wardens in his service.
 
Architect would probably support Corypheus, if he would agree to solve the issue with the Blights, once he becomes a god.
He supported him once before after all, even if he doesn't remember (or pretends, that he doesn't remember).

Oh, I'm aware of what the Architect wanted to do.....I've read The Calling too. However, The Architect seems to be the exact opposite of Corypheus. For starters, Corypheus refuses to believe he's a Darkspawn, while the Architect admits that he is. I honestly couldn't see them being buddy's.....not now.

[andy6915]

The wardens should have known it was a bad idea. They tried that before on a lesser scale, remember? Wardens summoning an army of demons to deal with a threat? Yeah, that worked out real well at Soldiers Peak with with how the demons killed everyone on both sides and tore the veil wide open and basically turned the castle into their own little apocalypse. A massive army of demons is definitely a great plan that can't possible go wrong . Except here, it's on a completely different scale from just enough demons to take over one castle... Enough demons to take over the entire continent, more like. It's like they decided that the only reason it went wrong at Soldier's Peak was that they didn't summon enough demons, so this time let's summon a 1000x more than last time!

 

Idiots. Fool you once, shame on you. Fool you twice, shame on you extra since you clearly didn't learn anything from the last time. It's true what they say about being doomed to repeat history if you don't care to learn from it. Even Avernus of all people would have been smacking his forehead at their stupidity, and he was the one who did it the last time.

[Vertrix]

I have doubts any military officer is told over and over that you are the last defense versus the end of the world.

Trying to compare the Wardens to any regular military is futile, don't bother. These people aren't heroes, they aren't picked to be the best of the best, many are conscripted, a lot are criminals. The only thing that matters is that you survive the joining, and then they have a leash on you.

Listen to Hawke and the Warden companion's talk. The Wardens can't concieve of a world that could do without them. They've spent a good portion of their lives being told it's all on them. And that is all they have.

Add to that whatever else the Nightmare might be whispering, and the fact they've been indulged by everyone for so long...boom.

Well, fisrt thing first, a soldier defends his country. And for him/her, his/her country actually IS the world. He doesn't care about other countries, he only cares about his own.
The wardens can be compared to a military force, because they actually ARE a military force, with a certain hierarchy. And the fact that you survive the joining does not give them a leash: Anders showed how that is wrong, to be honest. it is not like the philactery for mages. Also, the Nightmare is a demon. A powerful one, maybe, but still a demon. Not a god. And therefore his power has limits. And his whispers are only effective if you listen to them.