80 réponses à ce sujet

[MidnightWolf]

The wardens should have known it was a bad idea. They tried that before on a lesser scale, remember? Wardens summoning an army of demons to deal with a threat? Yeah, that worked out real well at Soldiers Peak with with how the demons killed everyone on both sides and tore the veil wide open and basically turned the castle into their own little apocalypse. A massive army of demons is definitely a great plan that can't possible go wrong . Except here, it's on a completely different scale from just enough demons to take over one castle... Enough demons to take over the entire continent, more like. It's like they decided that the only reason it went wrong at Soldier's Peak was that they didn't summon enough demons, so this time let's summon a 1000x more than last time!
 
Idiots. Fool you once, shame on you. Fool you twice, shame on you extra since you clearly didn't learn anything from the last time. It's true what they say about being doomed to repeat history if you don't care to learn from it. Even Avernus of all people would have been smacking his forehead at their stupidity, and he was the one who did it the last time.

Thank you for reminder, I'd completely forgotten about what happened at Soldiers PeAl since I haven't played through Origins for about a year.

[JadeDragon]

The wardens should have known it was a bad idea. They tried that before on a lesser scale, remember? Wardens summoning an army of demons to deal with a threat? Yeah, that worked out real well at Soldiers Peak with with how the demons killed everyone on both sides and tore the veil wide open and basically turned the castle into their own little apocalypse. A massive army of demons is definitely a great plan that can't possible go wrong . Except here, it's on a completely different scale from just enough demons to take over one castle... Enough demons to take over the entire continent, more like. It's like they decided that the only reason it went wrong at Soldier's Peak was that they didn't summon enough demons, so this time let's summon a 1000x more than last time!

 

Idiots. Fool you once, shame on you. Fool you twice, shame on you extra since you clearly didn't learn anything from the last time. It's true what they say about being doomed to repeat history if you don't care to learn from it. Even Avernus of all people would have been smacking his forehead at their stupidity, and he was the one who did it the last time.

Speaking of Avernus why did he not answer the call? and was it explained why King Alister did react to the calling at the end of the mage quest i he appears? To be honest they should have just had Anora or Teagan show up and i Alister is king be like he is forbidden to leave the castle type thing. They was better off saying only Wardens in Orlais and The Fereldan Wardens went with the HoF or Warden-Commander, including Avernus. But instead they made all the Southern Wardens who werent companions at one point foolish and just had no care for the Awakening Wardens.

[Yaroub]

Hof and Alistair managed, i don't see why they wouldn't succeed with their plan, go to the deep roads, search for the remaining two old gods, kill them, live after 30.

 

Grey ones pulled off a lot of crazy ideas, it was a brilliant idea but need more thought and strategy into it, Weisshaupt should follow suit.

[MidnightWolf]

Speaking of Avernus why did he not answer the call? and was it explained why King Alister did react to the calling at the end of the mage quest i he appears? To be honest they should have just had Anora or Teagan show up and i Alister is king be like he is forbidden to leave the castle type thing. They was better off saying only Wardens in Orlais and The Fereldan Wardens went with the HoF or Warden-Commander, including Avernus. But instead they made all the Southern Wardens who werent companions at one point foolish and just had no care for the Awakening Wardens.

It's never explained why Avernus didn't answer. My guess is, Clarel didn't know about him?.....or perhaps he's dead? It's also never mentioned if King Alistair hears this false call either.

[andy6915]

Speaking of Avernus why did he not answer the call? and was it explained why King Alister did react to the calling at the end of the mage quest i he appears? To be honest they should have just had Anora or Teagan show up and i Alister is king be like he is forbidden to leave the castle type thing. They was better off saying only Wardens in Orlais and The Fereldan Wardens went with the HoF or Warden-Commander, including Avernus. But instead they made all the Southern Wardens who werent companions at one point foolish and just had no care for the Awakening Wardens.

 
Avernus has been hearing the calling for the last century at least because of his age, he's been tuning it out the entire time. Read his journal.
 
http://dragonage.wik...Avernus's_Notes
 
"I can feel the corruption starting to take its toll on my body. I must not succumb. There is too much work to be done. Through my magic I've been able to slow its inevitable spread, but not stop it completely. I am starting to hear things, even while awake: A voice--more beautiful than any other--that calls to me from the depths. In my dreams, I see the Black City, and I am drawn towards it. There is something there, an answer to what this taint is, this taint that we share with the darkspawn..."

 

 

For him the calling is basically just an old man ache to him, just some annoying niggling thing he has to deal with every sodding day. He didn't know of any continent-wide calling because he's already been going through his for longer than any warden has even been alive as of DAI, you can't hear 2 callings at the same time. He was already hearing it, it's not significant to him.

[Ariella]

Well, fisrt thing first, a soldier defends his country. And for him/her, his/her country actually IS the world. He doesn't care about other countries, he only cares about his own.
The wardens can be compared to a military force, because they actually ARE a military force, with a certain hierarchy. And the fact that you survive the joining does not give them a leash: Anders showed how that is wrong, to be honest. it is not like the philactery for mages. Also, the Nightmare is a demon. A powerful one, maybe, but still a demon. Not a god. And therefore his power has limits. And his whispers are only effective if you listen to them.

You're trying to compare apples and oranges.

The closest thing that world has ever had to truly deal with in the regard of a true end of the world is the Cuban Missile Crisis.

There's a huge difference psychologically between defeat and the fact that there will not BE a tomorrow.

Don' t try and compare the two, and don't get sucked in by how Blackwall romanticizes the Wardens. They're secretive, feel any end justifies the means, feel that because they are the only ones who can kill darkspawn, they know what's best. Their whole mentality is insular. Modern military isn't like that. Soldiers are more than just soldiers. They're spouses, parents, siblings, friends children. They have lives outside the military. With few exceptions the Wardens do not. It changes your whole world view when you do that. Cults do it all the time.

[Ariella]

And Vertrix, since we're using real life analogy.

Sometimes not listening to voices isn't an option. Ask anyone with a mental health issue. They can tell you how insideous 'whispers' can be.

[Nixou]

But the Wardens have been shown under a completely different light since Origins. In Origins we were heroes, and in other games the Wardens are made out to be practically a stupid organization

 

 

In Origins, the Grey Wardens were locally reduced to Alistair, who unless hardened remains a follower terrified at the prospect of taking any initiative, and the ungodlily muleheaded and protected by a very thick plot-armor Player Character.

Virtually everything learned about the Grey Wardens since Origins point toward the Hero of Ferelden being -regardless of players' choices- a very unusual Grey Warden. In fact, it's the earliest hint that something is wrong about Blackwall: he behaves to much like a Knight Errand, or like the Hero of Ferelden (when played by a completionist player hellbent on doing every sidequests), and not like a veteran Warden.

 

***

 

Then why the wardens of weisshaupt didn't act the same?

 

 

Because they were outside of Corypheus' area of influence. If the HoF survives and send a letter to the Inquisitor, s/he pretty much confirm it: "I'm far away, so nope, I'm not hearing any calling, so carry on and keep my turf safe thankyouverymuch"

 

***

 

Now instead of reaching out to Weishaupt , they get in touch with a random Tevinter magister who just happens to be there.

 

 

It's possible that they did contact Weishaupt, who decided that sending reinforcement down south where everyone was hearing the calling all at once was not a good idea.

 

***

 

The dude says "let your mages kill your warriors , so you can bind demons with blood magic , go into the Deep Roads and Slay the archdemon"

 

 

The Grey Wardens recruitment process involve ordering the new recruits to hunt down Darkspawn, take their blood, which get mixed with Archdemon blood and Maker knows what to produce a potentially lethal mixture which new recruits have to drink.

 

And the worse that is said in game about the (potentially reckless bordering on insane) decisions taken by the Hero of Ferelden come from Nathaniel if met in Dragon Age 2, who summarizes the situation by saying "Yeah, the boss took a few controversial decisions" or something along these lines.

 

Given that making people drink tainted blood is the Grey Wardens standard procedure and the HoF is at most viewed as a somewhat controversialish leader in the organization, I don't think that "making an army of demons with blood magic" registers as particularly ludicrous by Grey Wardens standards.

 

***

 

a soldier might have fear, that;s right. But he will NOT panic anywhere close to what they did in this game

 

 

Grey Wardens aren't soldiers: they are crusaders: that's a huge difference.

[MidnightWolf]

And Vertrix, since we're using real life analogy.
Sometimes not listening to voices isn't an option. Ask anyone with a mental health issue. They can tell you how insideous 'whispers' can be.

Now this I absolutely agree with. I've had Bi-polar since I was 12 years old, I'm now 33. Ignoring voices in my head, be them whispers or shouts, is sometimes impossible. All you can do is try to drown them out via other means.

[Inex]

Wardens, Mage Rebels, Templars and the Chantry... all of them are idiots in this game.

 

Clarel took the worst path possible. The calling affecting so many wardens at the same time and they didn't bother investigating? Army of demons? too dangerous and i doubt it would be enough to kill the Old Gods. No one even knows what happens to the darkspawn when all the old gods are dead or what happens if a warden finds an old god... it's possible the warden's taint could corrupt the old god, turning it into an Archdemon, thus starting another blight. Some wardens even noticed their mages were acting weird and they didn't do anything.

 

Seriously, if i was Clarel i would do what Stroud/Alistair/Loghain did. The investigation would eventually lead to Corypheus. The Wardens imprisoned him once why not do it again? I bet they have a lot of useful intel on Corypheus, plus the Inquisition would be there to help.

[ThePhoenixKing]

And that's why it's an awful storyline, because it depends on the characters involved holding the Idiot Ball in a death-grip in order to make it work.

[MidnightWolf]

And that's why it's an awful storyline, because it depends on the characters involved holding the Idiot Ball in a death-grip in order to make it work.

I don't think the storyline is awful pe say, it's just not very well thought?.....I suppose. And could have been a Hell of a lot better.
The part which sticks in my mind the most about the Adament quest is Clarel: " Corypheus? But he's dead".....I'm all: "Oh is he really? So it's just a coincidence that you failed to recover his body, and your new advice is a Tevinter Magister?" So glad she got Killed. Idiotic Woman.

[Ariella]

Now this I absolutely agree with. I've had Bi-polar since I was 12 years old, I'm now 33. Ignoring voices in my head, be them whispers or shouts, is sometimes impossible. All you can do is try to drown them out via other means.

Been there, have several tee shirts I'd rather not. So I'm right there with you.

And what's worse for the Wardens is that they're told to listen for the whispers because before the Calling gets a Warden, it's their way of knowing the spawn are around. Of course, the spawn can hear them too.

And that's why it's an awful storyline, because it depends on the characters involved holding the Idiot Ball in a death-grip in order to make it work.

No, just insular group who were willing to drink the kool aid because they thought they were the only ones who could save the world.

The wardens have a horribly warped view of the world with the blights at the center. They aren't going to be rational.

[Ariella]

I don't think the storyline is awful pe say, it's just not very well thought?.....I suppose. And could have been a Hell of a lot better.
The part which sticks in my mind the most about the Adament quest is Clarel: " Corypheus? But he's dead".....I'm all: "Oh is he really? So it's just a coincidence that you failed to recover his body, and your new advice is a Tevinter Magister?" So glad she got Killed. Idiotic Woman.

Remember, his body was dead. He did the whole jump thing so...

[ThePhoenixKing]

I don't think the storyline is awful pe say, it's just not very well thought?.....I suppose. And could have been a Hell of a lot better.
The part which sticks in my mind the most about the Adament quest is Clarel: " Corypheus? But he's dead".....I'm all: "Oh is he really? So it's just a coincidence that you failed to recover his body, and your new advice is a Tevinter Magister?" So glad she got Killed. Idiotic Woman.

 

It's not Cassandra Cain as written by Adam Beechan levels of derailment, I'll admit, but it's still pretty terrible. And what's worse is that this is a constant thing throughout the game. From the Wardens to the Mage Rebellion to the Dalish to Ferelden and beyond, it feels like everyone outside of the Inquisition has randomly become stupid/corrupt/self-absorbed/evil/incompetent in order to facilitate its rise. It makes all the conflicts feel really hollow, and the Inquisition's successes feel unearned and ungrounded. It's just bad writing, and no amount of LGBT characters or beautiful environments can make up for that.

[MidnightWolf]

It's not Cassandra Cain as written by Adam Beechan levels of derailment, I'll admit, but it's still pretty terrible. And what's worse is that this is a constant thing throughout the game. From the Wardens to the Mage Rebellion to the Dalish to Ferelden and beyond, it feels like everyone outside of the Inquisition has randomly become stupid/corrupt/self-absorbed/evil/incompetent in order to facilitate its rise. It makes all the conflicts feel really hollow, and the Inquisition's successes feel unearned and ungrounded. It's just bad writing, and no amount of LGBT characters or beautiful environments can make up for that.

Do you think this is a deliberate trend Bioware are now setting for future games? The writing and story in Origins was so fantastic it made me -a grown Woman- cry. Then along came DA2....which got me all tearie when Hawkes Mother died. And now instead of that, we're getting idiot NPC's and a story which, while I enjoyed it, could easily forget about if I played Origins again?......oh dear maker let it not be so.

[MidnightWolf]

Remember, his body was dead. He did the whole jump thing so...

Ha.....that's a good point. I take back some of what I wrote before. Thank you

[Statare]

I dunno. I think the way the game presented the Warden's desperation is what transformed it from being, I dunno if this is the right word, but believable to being perceived as incredibly stupid and reckless. If Erimond had not been so stereotypically presented as the Mustache Twirling Villain With a Silver Tongue, and the writers could have thought of a more subtle way that the idea of a Demon army was implanted into Clarel's mind, it would have been better. But as is, you show up in the Western Approach, shortly after learning something suspicious is going on, and sure enough, Jaffar/Scar/The Wicked Witch/Ursula is there doing Blood Magic and being a tool. Pretty bad plot development.

[MidnightWolf]

I dunno. I think the way the game presented the Warden's desperation is what transformed it from being, I dunno if this is the right word, but believable to being perceived as incredibly stupid and reckless. If Erimond had not been so stereotypically presented as the Mustache Twirling Villain With a Silver Tongue, and the writers could have thought of a more subtle way that the idea of a Demon army was implanted into Clarel's mind, it would have been better. But as is, you show up in the Western Approach, shortly after learning something suspicious is going on, and sure enough, Jaffar/Scar/The Wicked Witch/Ursula is there doing Blood Magic and being a tool. Pretty bad plot development.

LOL. So true. Erimond.....he's such a cliche a of character. The writers really let themselves down here, hence this thread. So sad.
I hope, assuming DA4 is on the cards, the writing goes back to how it was in Origins. And we have no more of these stupid "let's kill ourselves in hopes of saving everyone, only to hugely potentially FAIL" storylines.

[Gold Dragon]

One thing to remember:  Everyone in Thedas is most concerned with their own problems, and therefore have blinded themselves (sometimes fatally) to things outside those deeply set priorities.

 

Take Roderick for example.  He was dead set that everyone wait until a new Divine was elected.  To do otherwise was heresy.  It wasn't until the attack on Haven that he realised otherwise (and it killed him when he tried to correct his mistake).

 

It's still the idiot ball, but it's not being held BY idiots.  Just by the simple-minded and frightened.

[Vigilance97]

Hello all.
This is something which has been bothering me for a while now, more so since Descent, what with the Darkspawn.
Anyway, all this Darkspawn fighting got me thinking more about Carel and her foolish plan to kill the Old Gods before they rise as Archdemons.
What bothers me about this is: 1) They aren't Archdemons yet, so what makes her believe Wardens can kill them?
2) The Wardens are Tainted....all be it slightly differently to Darkspawn.....but wouldn't they be running the risk of turning the Old Gods into Archdemons once they found them? Or was that the plan?
The Architect -whom we now know to be a Magister, and also Tainted slightly differently- tried something 'funny' with Urthemiel and look how that turned out.

This whole Warden business seems completely idiotic, and is one of the few points in the story I dislike. Because Carels logic behind her decision makes zero sense....at least to me.
Thanks for reading

1) The only reason Archdemons can't be killed normally is because they are Archdemons. Their power over the blight is what allows them to respawn. There's no reason to think uncorrupted Old Gods can't be killed by Wardens(or anyone).

 

2) That could have happened, yes. But with a demon army standing by, it's not a big problem(as someone else here already pointed out).

 

The Wardens in The Last Flight have no idea what's going on with the southern members of their order; they just know that Wardens are mysteriously disappearing. And the Hero of Ferelden never hears the false Calling. I don't know that King Alistair isn't hearing it, but there's no indication that he is, and you'd think that would warrant a message to the Inquisition or something.

 

Also, how would you have the Wardens react to this false Calling, exactly? If not march into the Deep Roads with an army to back them up, then what? What were they supposed to do in that situation?

 

Let's assume for the sake of argument that this was a real Calling, and the Wardens were really dying. Assume that Erimond was not a servant of Corypheus, and the blood magic ritual had no side effect. Are you saying that it still would have been a stupid plan? That the Wardens should have just laid down and died, or just committed mass suicide, leaving southern Thedas defenceless against the darkspawn?

It's still a stupid plan because killing all the Old Gods would most likely just make the darkspawn more intelligent and take away their reason for staying underground, potentially starting a Blight that could not be stopped(since there'd be no Archdemon controlling the darkspawn). Unless their plan was to actually kill all the darkspawn, I only played that mission once back when the game came out so I don't remember. At any rate, they should have contacted Weisshaupt first to make sure the calling was really affecting all Wardens.

 

Listen.....honestly, i have been in the army in my country, and i assure you, a soldier might have fear, that;s right. But he will NOT panic anywhere close to what they did in this game. If soldiers are allowed to do random crap, it means that their leader is very very very very bad.
This works the other way, too, though. If a leader starts doing crazy crap, it is absurd to think that ALL of his/her subordinates will obey in silence. At the very least, 2 factions would have been formed between the wardens. And anyway, it is absurd that the best fighters in thedas panic like this anyway,  like reznore already said.

The Wardens were driven mad by the Calling. They weren't thinking straight. They weren't able to.

 

 

Hof and Alistair managed, i don't see why they wouldn't succeed with their plan, go to the deep roads, search for the remaining two old gods, kill them, live after 30.

 

Grey ones pulled off a lot of crazy ideas, it was a brilliant idea but need more thought and strategy into it, Weisshaupt should follow suit.

Again, killing the remaining Old Gods isn't necessarily a good idea.

 

 

 

As I said, I don't remember this quest very well. I'm on my second playthrough right now, just reached Skyhold, so maybe once all the details are fresh in my mind again I'll come back to this thread with my judgement of Clarel's actions.

[Yaroub]

Again, killing the remaining Old Gods isn't necessarily a good idea.

 

Don't let that egg head get into your head , grey ones know their game.

 

 

As I said, I don't remember this quest very well. I'm on my second playthrough right now, just reached Skyhold, so maybe once all the details are fresh in my mind again I'll come back to this thread with my judgement of Clarel's actions.

 

You do that and we'll discuss it, if not here I'll check you at Morrigan's.

[MidnightWolf]

Don't let that egg head get into your head , grey ones know their game.




You do that and we'll discuss it, if not here I'll check you at Morrigan's.

I assume by 'egg head' You mean Solas? Yeah.....I'm not sure of his opinion when it comes to Wardens too. Elf Wolfy guy, hes definitely hiding more from us that just being.....*sniffs*......Elfy and Wolfy. PS, I have finished the main story over 20 times. BUT his opinions of the Wardens seem.......extreme.

[Yaroub]

I assume by 'egg head' You mean Solas? Yeah.....I'm not sure of his opinion when it comes to Wardens too. Elf Wolfy guy, hes definitely hiding more from us that just being.....*sniffs*......Elfy and Wolfy. PS, I have finished the main story over 20 times. BUT his opinions of the Wardens seem.......extreme.

 

Yeah that wisp of a man, he is arrogant knife ear who can't see past his nose, his only method of reason is to put two and two together and come up with an answer that suits him, i just wish that my hof turn up and wipe the floor with his face and show him what kind of metal wardens are made of.

 

May the forces of evil become confused on the way to his house(if he has one). CURSE HIM!

[Jester]

Don't let that egg head get into your head , grey ones know their game.

They really don't.

Wardens are shown through all the games to be so unbelievably incompetent, it's a miracle Thedas survived 5 Blights. 

 

1. In The Calling, Senior Wardens (actually Warden-Commander and ex Warden-Commander) are manipulated like children, to betray everything their order stands for. They agreed to wiping out most of the people in Thedas, and infecting the rest with the Taint. Sure, no more Blights, because everyone is a Darkspawn or a Ghoul. Genius. 

 

2. In Origins, they agreed to a very dubious plan. Why were all the Wardens in the Cailan's part of the army? Why didn't Duncan insist on putting some of his people into Loghains troops? They should have done that, at least to protect Loghains half of the army from being ambushed by other Darkspawn. Or to have some Wardens left, in case something went wrong. Or the Archdemon appeared and attacked Loghain's army. 

 

3. In DA2, a Senior Warden get's manipulated like a child by unconscious Corypheus, despite the fact that she knew about his abilities. And believes, that despite the fact that for centuries no one was able to control him, that she will be. A. Senior. Warden.

 

4. In DA:I, Orlesian Wardens all start to hear the Calling, and instead of contacting The First Warden, they devise a possibly suicidal and incredibly risky plan of ending all Blights. A plan created together with a complete stranger, without consulting their leadership and involving sacrificing most of their members in demon-summoning rituals. They didn't even think about finding out if Wardens in other countries were also affected by the Calling. Because if not, then the entire plan was a needless risk. Other Wardens would be able to handle the situation, even if their Calling was real and deadly.

 

5. They obviously don't know what happens, after Old Gods are dead. Nobody knows.