80 réponses à ce sujet

[ShadowLordXII]

They really don't.

Wardens are shown through all the games to be so unbelievably incompetent, it's a miracle Thedas survived 5 Blights. 

 

1. In The Calling, Senior Wardens (actually Warden-Commander and ex Warden-Commander) are manipulated like children, to betray everything their order stands for. They agreed to wiping out most of the people in Thedas, and infecting the rest with the Taint. Sure, no more Blights, because everyone is a Darkspawn or a Ghoul. Genius. 

 

2. In Origins, they agreed to a very dubious plan. Why were all the Wardens in the Cailan's part of the army? Why didn't Duncan insist on putting some of his people into Loghains troops? They should have done that, at least to protect Loghains half of the army from being ambushed by other Darkspawn. Or to have some Wardens left, in case something went wrong. Or the Archdemon appeared and attacked Loghain's army. 

 

3. In DA2, a Senior Warden get's manipulated like a child by unconscious Corypheus, despite the fact that she knew about his abilities. And believes, that despite the fact that for centuries no one was able to control him, that she will be. A. Senior. Warden.

 

4. In DA:I, Orlesian Wardens all start to hear the Calling, and instead of contacting The First Warden, they devise a possibly suicidal and incredibly risky plan of ending all Blights. A plan created together with a complete stranger, without consulting their leadership and involving sacrificing most of their members in demon-summoning rituals. They didn't even think about finding out if Wardens in other countries were also affected by the Calling. Because if not, then the entire plan was a needless risk. Other Wardens would be able to handle the situation, even if their Calling was real and deadly.

 

5. They obviously don't know what happens, after Old Gods are dead. Nobody knows. 

Most of your examples are exceptions to the rule and typically involved an outside factor beyond the Warden's knowledge or control.

 

1. Said Warden-Commanders were being manipulated by a Darkspawn Magister who was being assisted by the First Enchanter.

 

2. I like Duncan, but yeah...he made a stupid move here.

 

3. An idiot to be certain, but who really knew what was being imprisoned in that prison? Still doesn't mean that all wardens are stupid.

 

4. Corypheus was working in league with a powerful Nightmare Demon to directly control the Orlesian Warden mages and use them to manipulate the rest of the order. Clarel was being played like a fiddle against a force that she had no knowledge of or had no chance of counter-acting against. Remember that as soon as she realizes that Corypheus is beyond the plot and that there's an Archdemon flying around (it's actually a red lyrium dragon, granted), she immediately turns on Erimond and would have killed him if not for the dragon.

 

5. Also, the Wardens have stopped 5 blights. Criticize them if you want, but there's no denying that they've gotten results and these results saved Thedas at least 5 times.

[Yaroub]

They really don't.

Wardens are shown through all the games to be so unbelievably incompetent, it's a miracle Thedas survived 5 Blights. 

 

1. In The Calling, Senior Wardens (actually Warden-Commander and ex Warden-Commander) are manipulated like children, to betray everything their order stands for. They agreed to wiping out most of the people in Thedas, and infecting the rest with the Taint. Sure, no more Blights, because everyone is a Darkspawn or a Ghoul. Genius. 

 

2. In Origins, they agreed to a very dubious plan. Why were all the Wardens in the Cailan's part of the army? Why didn't Duncan insist on putting some of his people into Loghains troops? They should have done that, at least to protect Loghains half of the army from being ambushed by other Darkspawn. Or to have some Wardens left, in case something went wrong. Or the Archdemon appeared and attacked Loghain's army. 

 

3. In DA2, a Senior Warden get's manipulated like a child by unconscious Corypheus, despite the fact that she knew about his abilities. And believes, that despite the fact that for centuries no one was able to control him, that she will be. A. Senior. Warden.

 

4. In DA:I, Orlesian Wardens all start to hear the Calling, and instead of contacting The First Warden, they devise a possibly suicidal and incredibly risky plan of ending all Blights. A plan created together with a complete stranger, without consulting their leadership and involving sacrificing most of their members in demon-summoning rituals. They didn't even think about finding out if Wardens in other countries were also affected by the Calling. Because if not, then the entire plan was a needless risk. Other Wardens would be able to handle the situation, even if their Calling was real and deadly.

 

5. They obviously don't know what happens, after Old Gods are dead. Nobody knows. 

 

 

How fast folks forget.

 

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Grey_Wardens

 

Beside Hawke freeing Cory, then Quizzy causing the breach, wardens have it under control.

[Jester]

How fast folks forget.

 

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Grey_Wardens

 

Beside Hawke freeing Cory, then Quizzy causing the breach, wardens have it under control.

No, they don't. They frequently show obsession with preventing future Blights, and are willing to sacrifice far too much to achieve this goal.

Not to mention things like meddling in politics (Sophia Dryden, current First Warden). In Sophia's case it indirectly caused all the problems in DA:O, because without her stupid rebellion, Warden's would still have a place in Ferelden, and would be there in strenght, instead as a few guys recruited by Duncan. 

 

And yeah. They managed to stop 5 Blighs (in truth, more like 4, because if it wasn't for Flemeth and plot armor, Urthemiel would wreck Ferelden, and who knows if she would stop there), but they endangered the world multiple times, by toying with forces beyond their comprehension.

They should stick to waiting for a Blight, and then doing their job, because in the times of peace they are very eager to mess things up really, really badly.

 

 

Most of your examples are exceptions to the rule and typically involved an outside factor beyond the Warden's knowledge or control.

 

1. Said Warden-Commanders were being manipulated by a Darkspawn Magister who was being assisted by the First Enchanter.

 

2. I like Duncan, but yeah...he made a stupid move here.

 

3. An idiot to be certain, but who really knew what was being imprisoned in that prison? Still doesn't mean that all wardens are stupid.

 

4. Corypheus was working in league with a powerful Nightmare Demon to directly control the Orlesian Warden mages and use them to manipulate the rest of the order. Clarel was being played like a fiddle against a force that she had no knowledge of or had no chance of counter-acting against. Remember that as soon as she realizes that Corypheus is beyond the plot and that there's an Archdemon flying around (it's actually a red lyrium dragon, granted), she immediately turns on Erimond and would have killed him if not for the dragon.

 

5. Also, the Wardens have stopped 5 blights. Criticize them if you want, but there's no denying that they've gotten results and these results saved Thedas at least 5 times.

1. Yes. That's what I'm talking about. Every time Wardens try to play with forces they don't understand, something horrible is unleashed (or almost unleashed) upon the world. If Bregan didn't give the Architect maps showing Urthemiel's prison, Fifth Blight would not occur as quickly. I mean, they were manipulated by a Darkspawn. A Darkspawn. Wardens are not supposed to converse with Darkspawn and agree to their plans. They are supposed to kill them. They messed up even something that simple.

 

3. She knew. She knew it was Corypheus, that he was imprisoned because he influenced Wardens and they couldn't kill him or control him, so they built a prison overseen by mages outside of Warden ranks. She knew all that, but obsession with ending the Blights was too strong.

 

4. Warden Mages were directly controlled only because they agreed blindly to a ritual. They should have calmed down, sent to Wardens in Ferelden, Antiva, Anderfels etc. to get more info, then realize that the Calling is affecting only them, get suspicious and figure out the reason. 

Panicking in that situation was a human reaction, but it was incompetent and almost led to a catastrophy, by releasing into the world the most powerful demon in existence. And it could have gone far worse.

 

Imagine, if the demon army was not a trick. Let's assume, the Calling was real for some reason. They created an army, bound it and they found Razikale below Western Approach. At this point, if the Calling was real, it would be quite probable that Warden's would lose control of themselves completely in Razikale's presence, died there and unleashed an Archdemon on Orlais already plunged into the civil war. All Orlesian Wardens are dead. Hope you're up to the task Blackwall! Oh, wait...

 

They chose the worst possible moment to risk something like that. All of them dying would be better, than unleashing a Blight on unprepared Orlais if something backfired. And because they knew something bad was happening, they had to plan for something backfiring. All Wardens dead is not as bad as having a Blight in the middle of a civil war, with all Wardens dead.  

 

Grey Wardens need Sera in their ranks. Girl is a voice of reason. Like when she advises against drinking from the Well of Sorrows.

"It's called Well of Sorrows". SORROWS. No one should go in the Well of Sorrrows."

 

Grey Wardens needed someone to tell them, that looking for Old Gods is exactly the thing they're supposed not to do. 

[guntar74]

Meh I felt all factions kinda suffered in this one. None of the non leaders think or act for themselves while the ones in control are doing stupid ****. Only until the inquisition gets involved do they go "oh hey ya this was pretty stupid wasn't it..."

[Nixou]

Wardens are shown through all the games to be so unbelievably incompetent, it's a miracle Thedas survived 5 Blights.

 

 

 

Remember that 400 years passed between Blight number 4 & 5: centuries of vigil with no actual blight to fight would have caused institutional sclerosis.

[Aren]

The wardens should have known it was a bad idea. They tried that before on a lesser scale, remember? Wardens summoning an army of demons to deal with a threat? Yeah, that worked out real well at Soldiers Peak with with how the demons killed everyone on both sides and tore the veil wide open and basically turned the castle into their own little apocalypse. A massive army of demons is definitely a great plan that can't possible go wrong . Except here, it's on a completely different scale from just enough demons to take over one castle... Enough demons to take over the entire continent, more like. It's like they decided that the only reason it went wrong at Soldier's Peak was that they didn't summon enough demons, so this time let's summon a 1000x more than last time!

 

Idiots. Fool you once, shame on you. Fool you twice, shame on you extra since you clearly didn't learn anything from the last time. It's true what they say about being doomed to repeat history if you don't care to learn from it. Even Avernus of all people would have been smacking his forehead at their stupidity, and he was the one who did it the last time.

The soldier peak situation was completly different,Arland was the enemy not an old god,and  sophia her sister was involved it was a war for the throne,they had already lost at that point,and oh well thanks to the demons Avernus didn't get killed by Arland soldiers and my warden taken his research,so yes he did a good job,at his place i would have summoned even more demons.

It was ferelden army vs 4-5   GW so yes Avernus did a good   job.

 

Hello all.
This is something which has been bothering me for a while now, more so since Descent, what with the Darkspawn.
Anyway, all this Darkspawn fighting got me thinking more about Carel and her foolish plan to kill the Old Gods before they rise as Archdemons.
What bothers me about this is: 1) They aren't Archdemons yet, so what makes her believe Wardens can kill them?
2) The Wardens are Tainted....all be it slightly differently to Darkspawn.....but wouldn't they be running the risk of turning the Old Gods into Archdemons once they found them? Or was that the plan?
The Architect -whom we now know to be a Magister, and also Tainted slightly differently- tried something 'funny' with Urthemiel and look how that turned out.

This whole Warden business seems completely idiotic, and is one of the few points in the story I dislike. Because Carels logic behind her decision makes zero sense....at least to me.
Thanks for reading

1)Untainted old god are hibernated ,they can be killed like any other stupid Dragon it's the taint that  make them semi immortal

2)No an old god  need to be heavily damaged with the taint to become an AD,the architect feed Urthemiel with a lot of tainted blood directly ingested by the dragon before to transform him,the others were damaged by the entire horde before to become  AD.

 

btb an intelligent plan to kill the old gods is by using disciples,intelligent darkspawn who can easily reach them and that are unaffected by the calling,but oh well i guess that being brave/stupids and lost thousands of men in the blights is more romantic,less realistic but more romantic.

[Statare]

Well there are two serious things the Wardens need to consider now after DAI that I hope, but doubt, any of them are considering. The first is the Magisters. If Corypheus caused so much devastation, and they know about the Architect, some of them should be investigating the whereabouts and status of each and every magister, as they are all potentially ticking time bombs. One caused a Blight, and one nearly took over Southern Thedas and killed the Divine, caused a Civil War, caused a mind control ritual in their own ranks, and poisoned Templars and brainwashed Mages.

 

Also, Cory proves their whole concept behind how you kill an Archedemon is flawed. Their idea is that when in comes to souls 1 plus 1 equals 0, but Corypheus proves that souls are not necessarily canceled out, and that they really need to explore the nature of the Joining and how it works in regards to Archedemon and Magister souls... because now I have my doubts the Joining works like they think it does.

[Jester]

1)Untainted old god are hibernated ,they can be killed like any other stupid Dragon it's the taint that  make them semi immortal

2)No an old god  need to be heavily damaged with the taint to become an AD,the architect feed Urthemiel with a lot of tainted blood directly ingested by the dragon before to transform him,the others were damaged by the entire horde before to become  AD.

 

btb an intelligent plan to kill the old gods is by using disciples,intelligent darkspawn who can easily reach them and that are unaffected by the calling,but oh well i guess that being brave/stupids and lost thousands of men in the blights is more romantic,less realistic but more romantic.

Where did you get that info?

[thats1evildude]

I dunno. I think the way the game presented the Warden's desperation is what transformed it from being, I dunno if this is the right word, but believable to being perceived as incredibly stupid and reckless. If Erimond had not been so stereotypically presented as the Mustache Twirling Villain With a Silver Tongue, and the writers could have thought of a more subtle way that the idea of a Demon army was implanted into Clarel's mind, it would have been better. But as is, you show up in the Western Approach, shortly after learning something suspicious is going on, and sure enough, Jaffar/Scar/The Wicked Witch/Ursula is there doing Blood Magic and being a tool. Pretty bad plot development.

I think the quest works better for the fact that Erimond is the mustache-twirling villain. Clarel is the anti-villain here; Erimond needed to be an actual evil person taking advantage of the Grey Wardens' desperation. And honestly, I can't think of any sympathetic reasons why someone would want to bring down the Wardens or make them slaves to Corypheus.

Also, how would you shoehorn that in? Whike at the Ritual tower, Erimond makes a sad speech about how his Warden father used to beat him, therefore he hates all Wardens? That would be very awkward.

And really, aren't there enough servants of the Elder One with sympathetic motives? What's wrong with villains acting out of honest-to-God greed or lust for power?

Calpernia- Evil, but trying to end slavery in Tevinter
Samson-Evil, but has been abused by the Chantry all his life
Alexius-Evil, but trying to save his son
The Freemen of the Dales-Evil, but tired of fighting a pointless civil war

[Jester]

And really, aren't there enough servants of the Elder One with sympathetic motives? What's wrong with villains acting out of honest-to-God greed or lust for power?

Calpernia- Evil, but trying to end slavery in Tevinter
Samson-Evil, but has been abused by the Chantry all his life
Alexius-Evil, but trying to save his son
The Freemen of the Dales-Evil, but tired of fighting a pointless civil war

Erimond? Florianne? Those two were pretty evil. 

With like... zero redeeming qualities.

[thats1evildude]

That doesn't contradict my point, which is that Corypheus already has enough well-intentioned henchmen and didn't need more.

There's also Servis, Imshael, Envy and Nightmare, but the last three are demons. They have to be evil.

[Face of Evil]

There's also Servis, Imshael and Envy, but the latter two are demons. They have to be evil.

Choice. Spirit.

[thats1evildude]

Choice. Spirit.

I WILL CUT YOU.

[Reznore57]

Calpernia and Samson also were ...not really clever at best.(and I mean stupid derp.)

 

Calpernia was a slave , against slavery who followed an ex Magisters who don't want to abolish slavery at all....he just thought she was too talented to be a slave.

Oh and this guy also butchered numerous slaves in the past for some ritual.

Calpernia "Oh noes I can't believe Corypheus (the evil looking darkspawn ) would betray me and use me as a vessel for some indoctrination soup."

 

Samson "Man the Chantry , they got me addicted to the blue stuff ...I hate them.Now I'm going to follow the Evil Darkspawn , the red stuff is knocking my socks off...oh and my soldiers turning into Behemoth?I'm sure they're fine."

[Jester]

Samson "Man the Chantry , they got me addicted to the blue stuff ...I hate them.Now I'm going to follow the Evil Darkspawn , the red stuff is knocking my socks off...oh and my soldiers turning into Behemoth?I'm sure they're fine."

Truth be told, Samson doesn't have free will. Once you get red lyrium in you, Corypheus controls you through the Taint, just like he controled the Wardens or those Carta dwarfs eating Darkspawn blood in DA2. 

He got control of his dragon this way, and that's why entire Templar Order was willing to serve him. 

 

On the other hand, Venatori serve because they believe in him, or are slaves (like Fiona and her mages). 

 

But yeah, Calpernia is stupid. At least you can make her realize her stupidity.

[thats1evildude]

On the other hand, what was Calpernia going to do when Corypheus freed her? "Thanks a bunch, but you seem evil, so I'm going to reject your offer of freedom and power and just remain a slave, kthnx." You can say she was stupid to follow him, but what was the alternative?

 

And she didn't completely trust the Elder One, not totally. She did try to confirm his identity and have her spies break into the Temple of Dumat.

[Ariella]

I love Erimond. He's wonderful, especially since he's actually a fanatic believer. He's not snidely following until he can backstab his boss. He drank the kool aid.

I just wish it were possible to execute him via Mark of the Rift or exile him to the Deep Roads. Much better way to deal with him than making him tranquil or lopping his head off.

[Giantdeathrobot]

It was a decision made out of desperation because they thought they were all dying all at once. Also the majority of them was influenced by Corypheus.

 

But the Wardens have been shown under a completely different light since Origins. In Origins we were heroes, and in other games the Wardens are made out to be practically a stupid organization. Same with the elves.

 

In Origins, we have Duncan killing Jory and then throwing nearly all the Wardens in Cailan's gambit, while Sophia Dryden got the Wardens exiled from Ferelden for centuries due to her antics.

 

The Wardens have not changed. They have always been headstrong, results at all costs kinda people. Our PC was potentially a hero, because he was a PC in a RPG and thus a special snowflake. But that's not how everyday Wardens roll.

 

And really, given their recruitment methods and tendency for the elders to hear voices from an evil dragon god thing, it makes more sense that they would have leadership problems rather than be shining beacons of Aragorn-esque heroism.

 

About the plan, yes it was foolish. The bit about blighted creatures (the Wardens) turning an Old God into an Archdemon in particular is very possible, and may be why Solas was so upset. In the same way he went bersek when the mages turned his friend in a demon.

[Jester]

On the other hand, what was Calpernia going to do when Corypheus freed her? "Thanks a bunch, but you seem evil, so I'm going to reject your offer of freedom and power and just remain a slave, kthnx." You can say she was stupid to follow him, but what was the alternative?

 

And she didn't completely trust the Elder One, not totally. She did try to confirm his identity and have her spies break into the Temple of Dumat.

True. I'm half convinced she died anyway. I mean, after you convince her to rebel, she was planning on confronting Corypheus, right?

I don't think we've heard from her since...

[Ariella]

True. I'm half convinced she died anyway. I mean, after you convince her to rebel, she was planning on confronting Corypheus, right?
I don't think we've heard from her since...

I thought she was heading back to Tevinter to find another way to achieve her ends. Or that was the impression that I got. Since she'd probably know about the jumping bodies thing, she'd know confronting him would be futile.

[Reznore57]

On the other hand, what was Calpernia going to do when Corypheus freed her? "Thanks a bunch, but you seem evil, so I'm going to reject your offer of freedom and power and just remain a slave, kthnx." You can say she was stupid to follow him, but what was the alternative?

 

And she didn't completely trust the Elder One, not totally. She did try to confirm his identity and have her spies break into the Temple of Dumat.

 

Well she was free , no?

I think her old master disappears or something?

She is a powerful mage , with a bit of wits , she could have a chance in Tevinter .

I imagine Corypheus never did free her , as in nobody went to a tribunal and made some official paper.

But I guess it could be possible to bribe people .

 

Anyway once she is in the South she's not legally a slave anymore , slavery is forbidden in Andrastian lands .

Being an apostate isn't great but with the mage rebellion there was a chance for lands where mages are free and no slavery...

 

Anyway the problem at its core , is not even Calpernia or Samson , the main problem is Corypheus.

There really isn't any reason to follow him , first he's darkspawn , unless your brain dead the first thing you do is Not Trust Darkspawn.

But let's say you talk with him...because well curiosity and he's one of a kind .

He's a darkspawn whose plan is to go back to the Golden City to make himself a God.

He doesn't even know what happened the first time he went there , except well he got the Blight and brought it back to the world...He destroyed the Imperium in the first place.It was him and his friends.

 

I mean if Cory went "Look I was tricked to go in there , something wanted the Blight to corrupt the world , we need to find out who it was." Fair enough.

"Look I'm blighted , The Blight is bad , I need to go back to the City and figure out if I can find a solution" Bad plan , but good intention.

"This City is a pit of hell , I want to destroy it." Again crazy plan but I can understand the anger.

 

No Cory go there , finds nothing but corruption , no power of the Gods except maybe the Blight...and he wants to go there thinking the Godhood he wanted in the first place just ....will appear this time...because?

 

I mean in DA Awakening , the Architect wasn't the most trustworthy type (and also had bad plans ) but wardens can find a common ground with him because he sees Blights as a problem.

In Corypheus case , he's just so demented , you have to create characters just busy throwing the idiot ball around , his followers are either corrupted (and have no free will ) so desperate they run around like headless chicken and the couple of ambitious evilz rejected by the system.

[Merengues 1945]

Listen.....honestly, i have been in the army in my country, and i assure you, a soldier might have fear, that;s right. But he will NOT panic anywhere close to what they did in this game. If soldiers are allowed to do random crap, it means that their leader is very very very very bad.
This works the other way, too, though. If a leader starts doing crazy crap, it is absurd to think that ALL of his/her subordinates will obey in silence. At the very least, 2 factions would have been formed between the wardens. And anyway, it is absurd that the best fighters in thedas panic like this anyway, like reznore already said.

Exactly my toughts, in Origins we're told Wardens are the best of the best... And for what we see up to DA2 there's no reason to doubt they are badass... But after probably seeing Uthemiel in dreams, hearing the voices and overall years and years of training they lose all sense.

Not only that... They forget about the Warden Commander of Ferelden, the Weisshaupt branch, the wardens in the Free Marches, Nevarra, Antiva and Rivain... And instead they go to a nefarious tevinter magister... Of course his solution was blood magic, but no one ever considered gathering all the badass warriors and join Orzammar and Ferelden (both rulers owing much to the wardens) in a raid to the deep roads.

Overall this game only muddied the name of the wardens, suddenly everyone forgot about their sacrifice, they all became dummies that couldn't even handle the puny inquisition, and why did they broke off from weisshaupt? That makes no sense. Also, how comes many know about the calling if it's secret like the joining?

Anyway, when the next blight comes everyone will again be asking to be saved by the wardens and all this nonsense will be forgotten, unless they retcon origins and suddenly anyone could kill the archdemon.

[thats1evildude]

Well she was free , no?

I think her old master disappears or something?

She is a powerful mage , with a bit of wits , she could have a chance in Tevinter .

I imagine Corypheus never did free her , as in nobody went to a tribunal and made some official paper.

But I guess it could be possible to bribe people .

 

Corypheus essentially defeated her old master and used him to practice the enchantment he intended to eventually use on her.

 

And yes, she was a mage, but Erasthenes had only taught her enough to keep her from being possessed by demons. Corypheus actually taught Calpernia most of her skills. She would still be a slave without him.

 

No Cory go there , finds nothing but corruption , no power of the Gods except maybe the Blight...and he wants to go there thinking the Godhood he wanted in the first place just ....will appear this time...because?

 

I think Morrigan said it best: "Some might think Corypheus a madman for seeking godhood. Yet one must ask: what were the Old Gods? What secrets of theirs did the ancient magisters know? What I fear, what all should fear, is not that Corypheus believes he can succeed, but that he actually may."

[Reznore57]

 

I think Morrigan said it best: "Some might think Corypheus a madman for seeking godhood. Yet one must ask: what were the Old Gods? What secrets of theirs did the ancient magisters know? What I fear, what all should fear, is not that Corypheus believes he can succeed, but that he actually may."

 

But thing is he already suceeded , he went there and got the power of the Gods ...He's not a normal darkspawn , he's not a ghoul , he got almost the same power as an Archdemon.
He's immortal too.

 

I mean it went wrong the first time , there's nothing new since then .Corypheus doesn't claim he has some new information about the Golden City , he doesn't say he understands what happened to him back then.

What we learn is he can't contact Dumat anymore , and everything point out at him being trolled hard in the first place.

 

Whatever was locked in the Golden City , the corruption/dead whispers didn't have ultimate Godhood over everything , it had to be released to be dangerous.

[Aren]

 

 Quizzy causing the breach, 

This,people are always blaming only Corypheus and Solas,sorry but Inq is to blame as well.