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The tale of Tyrdda Bright-Axe, Explained (comment, discuss, love it or hate it ;P)


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#1
FrankWisdom

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Let me try to break down the Tyrdda Bright-Axe Saga, then briefly explain my interpretation.

 

First stanza:

 

Tell the tale of Tyrdda Bright-Axe, mountain maker, spirit's bride: (I believe the spirit, her leaf-eared lover, is Mythal, also can be interpreted as a parallel to Andraste, the Maker's bride)

 

Free, her people, forged in fastness, made in mountains, hardy hide. (Introduction to Tyrdda's exploits,  Freed from Thelm, made strong from their journey, where they reached the mountains with hardy hides).

 

Wise in wisdom, calm in counsel, great in gifts her grateful guests, (Tyrdda as she was, wise and ready to listen and heed her auger's council when needed, her guests were well received and gave her great gifts to show how much they appreciated her hospitality).

 

Sacrificed she did to spirits, took their teachings, followed quests. (Tyrdda followed the Avvar customs and sacrficed to spirits, learned from them and was a *spirited* (couldn't help myself) adventurer).

 

Bright her axe, unbreaking crystal, stirred to flame when temper flies, (we learned that axe is actually "hafted weapon", in this case, a staff).

 

Gifted from her leaf-eared lover, laughing lady of the skies. (Lady of the skies and leaf-eared lover, both seem to indicate Mythal)

 

Bested blades of all who tried, Maiden, spurning all requests, Tyrdda Bright-Axe, Dreamer's Eyes. (I believe Dreamer's eyes is literal, meaning Tyrdda was a dreamer, which is how Mythal came to know her).

 

Avvar-Mother, of her making. (Avvar-Mother... as Mythal is proclaimed to be the All-Mother to her people, so to is Tyrdda to her tribe).

 

 

Second stanza:

 

Thelm Gold-Handed, fingers greasy, jeweled rings with glitter shone, (This describes his character, greedy, sleazy and arrogant).

 

Took in tribes in times of trouble, fed them fat to weaken bone. (This further demonstrates his character, he used hardships to win the tribes' favor, gave them what they needed and wanted in order to gain their trust and weaken their resolve).

 

Warriors great and great in number, sun-kissed swords to fight his wars, (His followers were formidable and also of great number, they fought fearless in the gleaming sun with swords of quality which reflected their Leader's wealth and pride).

 

Drake-scaled shirts their bodies covered, heart-wine stained the salty shores. (They moved closer to the northern sea, still living in debauchery, leaving a trail of bloodshed, with Thelm leading the fray).

 

Told his tribes a tale of treasure, over sea to north it gleamed, (Self-explanatory).

 

Whispered words to drive the droves to golden city where he dreamed. (It would seem Thelm was also a mage and potentially was a dreamer. The whispers he heard seem to be from the Old Gods who wanted him to breach the Golden City from the fade).

 

Counseled quick in dreams alone, Voices wiser man ignores, (Thelm let his pride cloud his judgement, careless and callous, he let himself be manipulated by those who whispered).

 

Pushed the tribes until they screamed, Heed the dreams and cross the Waking. (Thelm pushed his tribe forward, he went too far, his obsessions led to their suffering. "Heed the dreams" is self-explanatory, he listened to the whispers, "cross the waking" I believe is in reference to the waking sea, it could also allude to the fade, "The whispering entities" crossing the veil to reach the waking).

 

Interestingly enough, the war table operation "Upon the Waking Sea" describes larger islands off the northern coast of Ferelden. It says "The island is quite large and covered in dense wilderness, so searching it will be an involved process. According to the runes, however, there should be some connection to the original disciples of Andraste and the “Guardian” of the Sacred Ashes."

 

Third stanza:

 

Honey-tongued was Thelm to Tyrdda, gifts of gold and steel to start, (Thelm tried to buy Tyrdda's favor, telling her what she wanted to hear, gifting her with weapons and gold much like he did with other tribes).

 

Wanted Tyrdda's men for warriors, stolen tribe from stolen heart. (Stolen tribe from stolen heart I believe refers to Thelm wanting to take her men, whom were loyal to Tyrdda, meaning they followed her because they respected her as a warrior and leader, rather than because they were bought).

 

Cold, her tribe, the Gold-Hand counseled, lean from winter's wind-knife chill, (Again Thelm is trying to do the same as he did with the other tribes, "took in tribes in times of trouble, fed them fat to weaken bone").

 

"Be my bride and cross the Waking, eat the gilded city's fill." (Here Thelm is trying to convince Tyrdda of the riches that await them across the Waking sea telling her they'll find all they need there, together). 

 

Tyrdda Bright-Axe, fraught with fury, crystal axe-head stirred to blaze, (Tyrdda's staff blazes, channeled through her emotions)

 

Heeded well her leaf-eared lover, unabashed by lustful gaze. (Mythal counsels her against trusting Thelm, she sees right through him).

 

"None shall break my tribe apart, Not with demon-words that kill, (It would seem that Mythal also told Tyrdda that these "whispers" Thelm heard came from demons).

 

"Fear my fury's fiery rays, Dream-words lie, their thirst unslaking." (The whispers heard from the Fade were lies, from beings who's desires & thirst are unquenchable).

 

Fourth stanza:

 

Tyrdda Bright-Axe, Thelm Gold-Handed, battle brought with blade and ax, (A battle fought on all fronts, with "might and magic")

 

Thelm in mail and shields of silver, shining sheen to turn attacks. (Given Thelm heard the whispers, I'd assume he was a mage, as stated above, the shields of silver might be a reference to this since it didn't say "shield" of silver instead of "shields". Shining sheen might be an effect of a protective spell that reflected attacks, such as Tyrdda's fire spells. However, this could also allude to his soldiers protecting him, using their shining shields of silver to deflect fireballs for instance).

 

Blade of dragonbone, now blooded, warrior throats wrung raw with cheers, (The fight is over, blood has been spilled and the victors are cheering as the last of their enemies are killed)

 

Tyrdda stands, her bright ax blazing, leg still weeping battle-tears. (Trydda's leg was injured and is still bleeding yet she stood steadfast)

 

Bright the ax of leaf-eared lover, laughing lady of the skies, (Mythal was also involved in the fight, her staff still shining like Tyrdda's).

 

Fire flares as Thelm Gold-Handed, honey-tongued, repeats his lies. (Tyrdda's emotions are raw, and as Thelm speaks his lies fire emerges from her staff, whether to ready her attack or strike a final blow is undetermined).

 

"North to warmth, and golden cities, Whispers speak in Dreamers' ears!" (Thelm repeats to Tyrdda what he was promised by those who whisper).

 

Silver scorched, the liar flies On raven's beaks, to dream unwaking. (This part is very interesting. Silver scorched is probably referencing Thelm's armor, though it could also mean he was scorched by silver, perhaps a spell cast by Mythal, as her staff was also glowing. flies on raven's beak seems to simply be a reference to him dying. Given they used ravens as a symbolism for death, this could mean that Elvhen beliefs were present when this was written, as the raven (fear and deceit) could symbolize Dirthamen as well as what Thelm was experiencing when he died i.e. fear of death and deceit from the Whisperers. As Dirthamen also represents secrets and knowledge, it could imply that Thelm's whispered secrets and knowledge were carried away with him (It could also simply be a reference to The lady of The Skies, who is the goddess of the dead and who uses birds to carry souls across the veil and into The Fade). The last part "to dream unwaking" is also very interesting. Apart from the obvious (permanent death), it seems to allude to the fact that he never reached his destination and never will, but it also implies that he was sent where those who deceived him were trying to escape from, ironically, The Fade, never able to return.

 

Fifth stanza:

 

Tyrdda Bright-Axe, bold and bloodied, took her tribe from placid plains, (Tyrdda led her tribe away, far from where Thelm wanted to go, from flat terrain to mountainous terrain).

 

Tribes with blades by farming blunted chased and fought, their parting pains. (Tyrdda and her tribesman were chased from the land by the remnants who followed Thelm and/or who weren't involved in the struggle, people who farmed the land, who were not soldiers at heart, but farmers by trade. They were forced to part but the parting is bittersweet and felt across the tribes, I'm guessing Tyrdda was especially affected, given she led her tribesman against Thelm).

 

To the mountains, shorn of shelter, snow-slickedpeaks gave wind its bite, (As they moved forward, they reached snowy peaks and needed shelter from the cold and probably snowstorms).

 

found a cave to save her tribe, but dragonfire lit the night. (They found a place to rest, but unfortunately it was a dragon's lair).

 

Beast no blade could break came roaring, mountains slipped their winter gown, (A very powerful dragon, most likely a high dragon, who's roar created an avalanche)

 

Tyrdda shouts to leaf-eared lover, "You I chose above a crown!" (Tyrdda is asking for Mythal's help, for whom she threw away the chance to become Thelm's queen).

 

Lightning split the spitting rains, Sundered over prideful heights, (Mythal obliged, helping Tyrdda by felling the dragon with lightning)

 

Dragon fell in rubble down, Crashed and crushed in earth's mad shaking. (The dragon was big and made quite an impact as it fell from the mountains and hit the ground, causing the earth to quake).

 

 

Sixth stanza:

 

Tyrdda Bright-Axe, proud her tribe, free from fallow fat below, (Tyrdda is proud of her tribe's accomplishments. They left on their own and accompanied her through hardships, which led them away from Thelm's tribes and their ways of decadence, greed and weakness).

 

Built in battle, fed on fighting, strong from struggle did they grow. (as above, their way of life and the hardships they faced made them stronger).

 

Deep in caves, the stone-men tribe, Hendir's warriors, stout and strong, (Self-explanatory)

 

Met the tribe with axes ready, armor gleaming, sword-blades long. (Also self-explanatory)

 

Spoke with Tyrdda did her lover, gentle whispers soft she made, (Mythal spoke through Tyrdda, whispering to sooth tensions generated by the dwraves and Tyrdda's tribesman. Whether this was facilitated through a spell of some kind is debatable, Mythal might have just been a gifted diplomat, though at this point we don't know whether the Dwarves are under the Titans' influence).

 

Dwarven hearts were sundered, simple, still with honor. Thus she bade: ("hearts sundered" is what influences my statement from the above line. This could either mean that Mythal's words touched the Dwarves on an emotional level or that she somehow broke their connection to the Titan that was controlling them. the "simple, still with honor" part is what makes me suspicious. Was this a reference to how the Dwarves behaved when linked with Titans? Much like the Elvhen writing describes "pillars of the earth" and "their workers", witless and soulless.

 

"Let the tribe the dwarf-men know, In their caves, where they belong, (Mythal felt sympathy for the Dwarves and even if she told them they belonged, underground, meaning that they weren't to infringe on Tyrdda's territory, she did so with diplomacy in her heart).

 

Not with battle but with trade, Hendir's dwarves, give peace unbreaking." (As above Mythal/Tyrdda brokered a peaceful relationship with the Dwarves that was mutually beneficial. This lead to trading rather than battle).

 

Seventh stanza:

 

Tyrdda Bright-Axe, Dwarf-Friend Chieftain, with her leaf-eared lover lay, (Tyrdda slept with her lover, but this part is interesting, it's been ambiguous throughout the ballad whether the leaf-eared lover is a spirit, is bonded with Tyrdda like Flemyth and Mythal or is a separate figure, an actual elf presumably bonded to Mythal).

 

Woke she did to love-sweat morning, lover gone in light of day. (Again this brings up the same question, this seems to imply the leaf-eared lover was actually a separate person, though it could easily be interpreted as Mythal's essence leaving Tyrdda's body. Their relationship could be experienced through The Fade when Tyrdda is sleeping which would explain her surprise when she wakes up and her lover is "gone". It would be a very weird relationship to have however, if you shared the same body as your paramour physically, but experienced the relationship as separate entities when in The Fade. I guess it would be an extremely intimate relationship however and given we don't know the dynamics behind such a union I'll end my speculation on the subject here, it's getting weird again :P)

 

Dream-words whispered, spoken soft, still the silence crushed and crashing, (Here I believe Mythal is basically explaining why she can't be with Tyrdda, effectively breaking up with her, speaking to her from The Fade. Kind of a shitty move, like breaking up with someone on the phone.. but Mythal probably thought that Tyrdda would try and stop her, so I understand why she'd do it this way. Of course Tyrdda is devastated. The silence crushed and crashing could refer to Tyrdda's emotional reaction or it could also reference her feeling after losing Mythal's essence, if she was in a Flemythal type situation).

 

Dead her tribe, unless a child could keep her line in warrior fashion. (Because of their traditions, Tyrdda needs an heir for succession. Whether Mythal was a spirit or had a body, she was a women and therefore could not produce children. Tyrdda needed a man for the sake of her tribe, in order to keep them united in strength.

 

Aval'var, so named the lover, called "our journey, yours and mine," Their journey was to be the foundation of their new tribe, what had made them strong, it was fit to be named as such and so, the Avvar were born. The name could indicate the elf was in fact a physical entity who either was bonded with Mythal or was perhaps an ancient Elvhen priestess).

 

One day child of Tyrdda's blood, Morrighan'nan, in strength must shine. (Another hint that Mythal was the lover, as she wanted Tyrdda's child to be named Morrighan'nan... Morrigan.)

 

Lover's whispers to obey, Hendir, dwarf-prince, friend in passion, (Hendir, a good friend of Tyrdda's was asked to be the man to sire her child)

 

Babe produced to serve the line, The Avvar tribe, her name, our taking. (The child would be the product of a Dwarven/human union, coaxed by an Elvhen god... interesting! The tribe would hold "her" name, theirs to keep.

 

Eighth stanza:

 

Tyrdda Bright-Axe, Avvar Chieftain, strong her tribe with dwarven trade, (Self-explanatory)

 

Battles brought to men and demons, won with wisdom, fire, and blade. (Tyrdda led her people to many victories, fighting men as well as demons using her wits and the teachings imparted to her by Mythal, her magic and her warriors).

 

Then did Tyrdda look to Hendir, dwarf-prince friend, children-giver, (After a long life leading her tribe, Tyrdda asked Hendir and her children to take care of the tribe, to choose a new chieftain for the Avvar people while she left to find what she was yearning for, love).

 

Took her freedom, Hendir glad, wished her what he could not give her. (Tyrdda left, to claim what she needed, what she wanted, Hendir understood her decisions and motivations, giving her his blessings and hoping she found what she was looking for).

 

Chose her child to stand as chieftain, after all last wrongs were righted, (I'm not sure what wrongs they are talking about, maybe someone can enlighten me but the rest is self-explanatory).

 

Gifted goods of worldly want, left her tribe no more benighted. (Tyrdda is bid farewell with gifts for her journey, leaving her tribe behind without any bitterness in her heart. The weight of responsibility lifted from her mind, she was ready for her trek).

 

Skyward, one last trek she made, To her lover, dream-delivered, (Tyrdda's "trek" could also be a metaphor for her leaving for The Fade, ready for death, akin to ancient Elvhen people using Uthenera. It could also mean she actually journeyed to a secluded place to do this, either way, the result is the same. "To her lover, dream-delivered". She found her leaf-eared lover, in my opinion Mythal, in The Fade).

 

Raven-feathered, reunited, Hearts both whole, now neither aching. (Again, the raven. This I would assume is referencing Falon'din, guiding Tyrdda to her leaf-eared lover, where they can complete each other, both loving, neither suffering a life apart. However, It could also be referencing the Lady of the Skies who rules over wind, bird and who also is the goddess of the dead (it is believed the dead's spirit is carried to The Fade by the bird). This then could be interpreted as The Lady of the Skies actually bringing Tyrdda to her in The Fade, so they can be together again. It would seem there is at least some influence from the Elvhen Pantheon found in the Avvar gods. Whether the leaf-eared lover was Mythal or a priestess of Mythal is debatable, given they found each other in The Fade and now Mythal is part of Flemeth. A lot of things like all the Elvhen legends or Avvar legends shouldn't be taken at face value because of metaphors and allegory, but it does bring up important questions).

 

So, I hope this was an interested read for anyone who took the time to do so :)

 

Let me end this with a quick recap.

 

Tyrdda was a mage and dreamer. She had a relationship with an Elvhen female mage, whether she was a spirit that embodied Tyrdda or a physical being and possible priestess of Mythal is undetermined. Tyrdda fought and killed Thelm. Thelm was presumably the king of the Alamarri, as he united many tribes under his banner. Thelm was also presumably a mage whether he knew it or not. This would seem to be the case because entities (presumably the "Old Gods") whispered to him through dreams, the same way they did the magisters, in order to manipulate him into breaching the Golden City. They seemed to be coaxing him into crossing the Waking Sea. This would imply that there was something important to the north that could maybe help someone either enter The Fade physically or find something related to the Golden City.

 

We also learn that the Elvhen culture had influence over ancient human beliefs. Tyrdda eventually left with her tribe and headed into the mountains, I'm guessing this is in the frostback basin region, where most modern Avvar now reside. It would also make sense geographically as Thelm was headed north, while the basin is located in the southwest. There Tyrdda encountered Dwarves. With her Elvhen lover's council, she brokered peace and a powerful, lasting alliance with them. Tyrdda's tribe traded with the Dwarves and both benefited from the relationship. Hendir, the prince and leader of whatever thaig the Dwarves came from, became good friends with Tyrdda. Tyrdda's Elvhen lover became aware that she could not give Tyrdda what she needed, an heir. She decided to leave Tyrdda so she could choose a man with which she could produce children. She explained this to Tyrdda through a dream after she had left.

 

Whether The Elvhen lover was a spirit or not and whether she was Mythal or not is debatable and as of yet unclear. Tyrdda did as her Elvhen lover asked, choosing Hendir as her mate and naming her first child Morrighan'nan as well as naming her tribe after her (Aval'Var). This means the Avvar as we know them today are a product of Dwarven and Human breeding. Given the amount of time that has passed and the limited amount of hybrids, it would seem most physical attributes are undetectable. Also human and Dwarven pairings might be similar to Human and Elvhen pairings, where Elvhen traits are almost always non-existent. After a long life, Tyrdda grew tired and was ready to rejoin her lover, feeling her duties as chieftain had been fulfilled.

 

She told Hendir this and he understood, hoping she would find what he couldn't give her, the love she had lost when her Elvhen lover left. Tyrdda bade her farewells, letting her children succeed her. Tyrdda then left on a trek. Whether this was a metaphor for death (perhaps taught by her lover) or whether she actually traveled to a specific location to enter a type of Uthenera is unclear. Either way, the result would be the same. She then is reunited with her lover, presumably by Falon'Din, where they complete each other.

 

That's it! Hope this generates a discussion. I'd love to hear people's thoughts. I'll probably make this a thread, as it's quite long.


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#2
Jedi Master of Orion

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I don't see any reason to think that Tyrdda's Leaf-Eared Lover was an elf or Mythal. The Lady of the Skies is a spirit, Mythal is something else.

 

And I think the phrase "Avvar-Mother" is a reference to the fact that this is a story of how the Avvar split from the Alamarri and became their own people. In that sense, Tyrdda became the mother of all Avvar.


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#3
Reznore57

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I don't see any reason to think that Tyrdda's Leaf-Eared Lover was an elf or Mythal. The Lady of the Skies is a spirit, Mythal is something else.

 

 

 

Well Leaf Ear might be a more poetic term than Knife Ear.

Usually the main difference between humans and elves , well the ears.

 

About the Lady of the Skies , if it works the same way as Korth the mountain father...well they do worship spirit but the story and personalities of those spirits is borrowed from something else.

 

Korth mythology 

Korth is the eldest and strongest god and everything found in the mountains stems from him. The Avvars believe all caves were carved by the Mountain-Father to shelter them, and that dwarves are also his creation as they live within his realm, deep underground.

 

Spoiler

 

Now Lady of the Skies , well Mythal was a Goddess who could shapeshift into a dragon and fly.

Most avaar mythology related her to birds and death ...it would fit Falon'Din more.

But Falon'Din was male and a psychopath  who like to bath in blood.

So the whole "Laughing Lady of the Skies ...." not really.


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#4
The Oracle

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I loved finding pieces of the saga throughout the Hinterlands. It really helped to show the mixed history of Ferelden. My interpretation of it was far more straightforward though. I see no reason to link it to characters that are already heavily in the game world. Thedas is a big place with millions of people in it. I'm sure Tyrdda and her lover could just be new characters all to themselves.


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#5
FrankWisdom

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I don't see any reason to think that Tyrdda's Leaf-Eared Lover was an elf or Mythal. The Lady of the Skies is a spirit, Mythal is something else.

 

And I think the phrase "Avvar-Mother" is a reference to the fact that this is a story of how the Avvar split from the Alamarri and became their own people. In that sense, Tyrdda became the mother of all Avvar.

 

Leaf-eared is descriptive enough to warrant my associating it to an Elf and as Reznore57 puts it "Leaf Ear might be a more poetic term than Knife Ear". I never ascribed the term Leaf-eared to Mythal, only pointed out that it described an elf while Mythal is an Elvhen Goddess.

 

You don't know what The Lady of The Skies is and neither do I. All we do know is what the Avvar believe and what's been recorded from the past. If you're basing your assumption on Hakkon, all we know is that his spirit was bound to a Dragon against its will. What was he before he was bound? Was he something more, did he used to have a body? From what we know and understand of spirits, they only embody one emotion one, aspect. We also know some of them try to mimic mortals and if they cross over from the The Fade they either become shades, demons, possess mortals and become abominations or somehow become mortal/spirit hybrids like Cole did, which seems to be unheard of. So if that is the case, then why did the Avvar attribute many different aspects to Hakkon (calling him the master of the two bitter colds of frost and steel for example) or The Lady of The Skies (ruling over the sky and birds as well as the dead)  for that matter. It's much more complicated then these entities simply being spirits like those we know of from The Fade.

 

The Elvhen Pantheon is thought to be either Extremely powerful mages, spirits or something in-between. That being the case, I don't see attributing similarities between The Lady of The Skies and Mythal to be far-fetched. If you read my post in its entirety, you know that Elvhen culture has influenced Avvar beliefs to some degree. Also, two seemingly Elvhen words were spoken by the Leaf-eared lover i.e. Aval'Var and Morrighan'nan.

 

As for Avvar-Mother, I wasn't disregarding the literal meaning. Clearly it was a title attributed to her because of her feats. She led her tribe with strength and distinction and even named them (incidentally that's a name given by her Leaf-eared lover Aval'Var as mentioned above, which means "our journey, yours and mine" which was in the saga). All I was doing was showcasing the parallel's with that of Mythal's title because I found the similarities interesting.



#6
FrankWisdom

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I loved finding pieces of the saga throughout the Hinterlands. It really helped to show the mixed history of Ferelden. My interpretation of it was far more straightforward though. I see no reason to link it to characters that are already heavily in the game world. Thedas is a big place with millions of people in it. I'm sure Tyrdda and her lover could just be new characters all to themselves.

 

I'm not linking Tyrdda to a character that is already heavily in the game world, she was who she was. As for the Leaf-eared lover, I'm just entertaining the possibility that some things were influenced by other things that came before and establishing parallels with different figures given what information we have to work with.



#7
Jedi Master of Orion

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Leaf-eared is descriptive enough to warrant my associating it to an Elf and as Reznore57 puts it "Leaf Ear might be a more poetic term than Knife Ear". I never ascribed the term Leaf-eared to Mythal, only pointed out that it described an elf while Mythal is an Elvhen Goddess.

 

You don't know what The Lady of The Skies is and neither do I. All we do know is what the Avvar believe and what's been recorded from the past. If you're basing your assumption on Hakkon, all we know is that his spirit was bound to a Dragon against its will. What was he before he was bound? Was he something more, did he used to have a body? From what we know and understand of spirits, they only embody one emotion one, aspect. We also know some of them try to mimic mortals and if they cross over from the The Fade they either become shades, demons, possess mortals and become abominations or somehow become mortal/spirit hybrids like Cole did, which seems to be unheard of. So if that is the case, then why did the Avvar attribute many different aspects to Hakkon (calling him the master of the two bitter colds of frost and steel for example) or The Lady of The Skies (ruling over the sky and birds as well as the dead)  for that matter. It's much more complicated then these entities simply being spirits like those we know of from The Fade.

 

The Elvhen Pantheon is thought to be either Extremely powerful mages, spirits or something in-between. That being the case, I don't see attributing similarities between The Lady of The Skies and Mythal to be far-fetched. If you read my post in its entirety, you know that Elvhen culture has influenced Avvar beliefs to some degree. Also, two seemingly Elvhen words were spoken by the Leaf-eared lover i.e. Aval'Var and Morrighan'nan.

 

As for Avvar-Mother, I wasn't disregarding the literal meaning. Clearly it was a title attributed to her because of her feats. She led her tribe with strength and distinction and even named them (incidentally that's a name given by her Leaf-eared lover Aval'Var as mentioned above, which means "our journey, yours and mine" which was in the saga). All I was doing was showcasing the parallel's with that of Mythal's title because I found the similarities interesting.

 

Jaws of Hakkon goes into much more detail about the Avvar religion. Their gods are fade spirits and they know their gods are spirits. There is a codex entry that covers the different concepts the Avvar and Andrastians each have regarding their gods. 



#8
FrankWisdom

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Jaws of Hakkon goes into much more detail about the Avvar religion. Their gods are fade spirits and they know their gods are spirits. There is a codex entry that covers the different concepts the Avvar and Andrastians each have regarding their gods. 

 

I'm aware, that doesn't change my position on the matter. The fact remains, all we have are accounts based on Avvar beliefs. While their gods might be interchangeable spirits that take form based on their faith and desires at this point, it doesn't mean this was always the case. Perhaps  the "gods" originated from or were based on something older and used to be different than what they are now. It might have become common practice after the Elvhen Pantheon was imprisoned. Maybe the basis of these gods originate from Elvhen cutlure, maybe Elvhen people came into contact with the Alamarri tribes of old or maybe some Alamarri tribesman stumbled upon ancient Elvhen ruins which influenced their culture, which in turn influenced the Avvar. The same way Titans could have influenced the Avvar in regards to Korth the Mountain-Father.

 

What I'm saying here is that we only have accounts and beliefs. We have no universal truth. If you keep an open mind and look at real world problems, religions, language etc. then you know that a lot of things morphed throughout the ages. It's also stated by David Gaider that a lot of the Dragon Age world he created was inspired by the real world or more precisely, he describes it as fantasy grounded in reality. I'm sure you've seen the influences. Exalted marches/crusades, The Chantry/Christianity, The Chant/The Bible, the Elvhen people/Native Americans, Andraste/Joan Of Arc/Jesus, Qun/Communism etc.

 

With all that in mind, I can't help but think there's more to certain things than what we're told at face value, not hidden meanings necessarily, just the natural flow of things. How things come to be when talking about a long span of time. Just look at the past 2000 years and all the things that happened, everything being debated by experts, fanatics historians and all the artifacts we keep finding that help us build a more comprehensive narrative of how things were.

 

Anyways that's how I see it.



#9
themageguy

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Korth as a Titan? Awesome.

#10
madrar

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Most of your analysis is spot-on.  There are a few assumptions and alternate theories you might want to take a look at, though:

 

1)  The identity of the Lady of the Skies.   Between her "leaf-eared" description, powerful magic, and prophetic nudging of future events, Mythal seems like the obvious candidate for the Lady on first reading the Saga.  If you look at parallels between Dalish and Avvar lore, though, a decent chunk of evidence points to a different member of the Pantheon.

 

In the codex on Lake Calenhad, the Avvar claim the lake was formed from the Lady's tears, wept when she discovered that Belenas, sacred peak of Korth the Mountain-Father, had been destroyed in his battle with the great serpent Nathramar.  Consider the potential parallel in that primordial battle with how the Dalish remember Mythal's conflict with red lyrium Andruil:  "So Mythal spread rumors of a monstrous creature and took the form of a great serpent, waiting for Andruil at the base of a mountain.  When Andruil came, Mythal sprang on the hunter. They fought for three days and nights, Andruil slashing deep gouges in the serpent's hide. But Mythal's magic sapped Andruil's strength, and stole her knowledge of how to find the Void."  In light of the potential connection, Cullen's bizarre insistence that Lake Calenhad looks "like a bunny" may not be an entirely throwaway line either, since the rabbit, or hare, is associated with Ghilan'nain in various contexts.

 

The Avvar title "Lady of the Skies" and the Lady's lore-established relationship to birds as "her children" intersect again with Ghilan'nain's depiction in Dalish myth.  In the codex describing her ascension she's established as the creator of "monsters of the air", and when approached by Andruil with an offer to join the Pantheon, she presents those she does not strike down to Andruil as a gift- further underscoring the connection between the two.  

 

Of course, this perspective suggests that Andruil is represented in Avvar myth as Korth, Mountain-Father.  The gender switch is unusual, but not impossible, since the earliest myths of the Avvar pantheon seem to date from the era when Andruil "put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face."   So, while I suspect modern Avvar myths are likely based on an "impure" composite of original entities (events attributed to the Lady may actually have been both Mythal and Ghil, and Korth may be a composite of Andruil and June) the gender question isn't a significant strike against Andruil's possible identity as Korth.  (And if you like your tinfoil theories extra thick, my personal hunch is that the Frostback Mountains themselves may be the remains of Andruil's fallen avatar from her conflict with Mythal.) 

 

2) The identity of Thelm Gold-Handed.  Noting the way Avvar mythology mirrors real-world Norse myth is an obvious place to start.  There are significant parallels between the Norse Pantheon (an admittedly warped substitute for missing Avvar lore) and the elvish Pantheon.  Granting Odin's role to Elgar'nan "the All-Father" for simplicity's sake, consider how Fen'rir parallels Fen'Harel's threat to Elgar'nan's rule, and Tyr's role in binding the wolf.  The price in the Norse version, of course, was his hand- and this may be the hint intended by the writers.  During Falon'Din-Dirthamen's first failed rebellion, Dirthamen - ostensibly the half of Order- pays the harshest penalty for the rebellion's collective action, being cast down and imprisoned as the Dread Wolf while Falon'Din is trapped in the Fade.  The moniker "Gold-Handed" may not just be a metaphor for Thelm's wealth, but rather the intentional suggestion of a gold prosthesis, emulating Tyr's lost hand.

 

Though tenuous, this might also help explain the Lady's warnings and Tyrrda's refusal to allow her people to join Thelm's warriors in their attack on the "gilded city".  His acts of apparent kindness or charity are viewed with suspicion, since an alliance is bait in a familiar trap.   Ghilan'nain would have been painfully aware of earlier failures, having seen the consequences of taking on the Pantheon first-hand.  

 

3)  "Tribes with blades by farming blunted chased and fought, their parting pains."  Not to be nitpicky, but I think this parses out to something more like "the sedentary farming tribes of Alamarri (who the Saga derisively suggests were made soft by their cushy agricultural lifestyle - literally turning their swords to plowshares) drove the Avvar out of the fertile lowlands and into the less-hospitable mountains."  

 

4)  "Sun-kissed swords to fight his wars"   I didn't notice on first reading, but this line might be intended to suggest weapons infused with red lyrium... the blood of the primordial titan Sun.   Significant, if so.



#11
Ieldra

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Let me first say how much I appreciate this tale. It gives a convincing impression of a classical epic. Whoever wrote it: great work!

 

The OP's interpretation hits a few interesting marks. However, I do not see a connection to Mythal. Tyrdda's lover is described as "laughing lady of the skies". I can't reconcile that image with what we know of Mythal. It doesn't fit with her role as protector in the early elven pantheon, and even less with her later incarnation. Tyrdda's lover was elven, so much we can infer, but anything beyond that is conjecture. She *may* have been a spirit, especially if Tyrdda was a Dreamer, but she may also have been an elven Dreamer she met in the Fade. In any case, the description doesn't fit with any of the elven gods. 



#12
leaguer of one

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Let me first say how much I appreciate this tale. It gives a convincing impression of a classical epic. Whoever wrote it: great work!

 

The OP's interpretation hits a few interesting marks. However, I do not see a connection to Mythal. Tyrdda's lover is described as "laughing lady of the skies". I can't reconcile that image with what we know of Mythal. It doesn't fit with her role as protector in the early elven pantheon, and even less with her later incarnation. Tyrdda's lover was elven, so much we can infer, but anything beyond that is conjecture. She *may* have been a spirit, especially if Tyrdda was a Dreamer, but she may also have been an elven Dreamer she met in the Fade. In any case, the description doesn't fit with any of the elven gods. 

I understand your skepticism but  "laughing Lady of the Sky" sounds alot like Flemeth who is a known body jumper and is Mythal.



#13
Shari'El

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Let me first say how much I appreciate this tale. It gives a convincing impression of a classical epic. Whoever wrote it: great work!

 

The OP's interpretation hits a few interesting marks. However, I do not see a connection to Mythal. Tyrdda's lover is described as "laughing lady of the skies". I can't reconcile that image with what we know of Mythal. It doesn't fit with her role as protector in the early elven pantheon, and even less with her later incarnation. Tyrdda's lover was elven, so much we can infer, but anything beyond that is conjecture. She *may* have been a spirit, especially if Tyrdda was a Dreamer, but she may also have been an elven Dreamer she met in the Fade. In any case, the description doesn't fit with any of the elven gods. 

 

I actually can see how Mythal fits the role.

 

Mythal is usually depicted as a dragon/having dragon features, which easily fits with the title "Lady of the Sky" (dragon are pretty much rulers of the sky, also real dragons in DA universe are only female), is a member of the pantheon who are known to reside in the Beyond (the Fade), has her name invoked by those that require protection (not far from what happened in the fifth stanza), asks the child of Tyrdda to be named Morrighan'nan...

 

The name Morrighan'nan, besides being very similar to Morrigan, is quite interesting to me, it sounds elvish (like Elgar'nan).

We don't have enough knowledge of the elven language but what I do know is that 'nan' is revenge/vengeance, and Mythal was said to be vengeful.

 

Also, in my opinion, Flemeth character fits the description "laughing lady of the skies", relying entirely on how she behaves when we encounter her in-game.

I don't know how much of that personality is Flemeth and how much is Mythal and there aren't descriptions of Mythal's sense of humor anywhere to be found (as far as I've seen  :P) so she might really not fit the description, but we can't know for sure.

 

I do agree it might be stretching it, the odds of all of what I wrote above to be true or false are about the same...

I like the idea of the Lady of the Sky to be someone else from the pantheon, but I can't fit the parts as good as I can with Mythal.



#14
Katebe94

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I'm so glad you posted this OP, I'd been thinking along similar lines. Not sure about Falon'Din - I think the last few lines could be taken as further evidence for mythal's involvement:

 

"Skyward, one last trek she made,
To her lover, dream-delivered,
Raven-feathered, reunited,
Hearts both whole, now neither aching."

 

Skyward - skyhold? And as for raven feathered - Flemeth is always depicted wearing raven feathers...

 

Also - Morrighan'nan - apparently 'nan' is vengeance in elvhen. It makes me think of when you question Flemeth in the fade and she says that Mythal "crawled her way through the ages" or something seeking her - like it wasn't an accident that Mythal finds Flemeth. And ultimately we know that Mythal is 'seeking the justice that was denied to her' and that she's kind of the dialetic of mercy/justice and vengeance. When OGB Keiran says that his mother is the 'inheritor' - could this be that Morrigan is the key to Mythal's vengeance? That this was what Flemeth was trying to do just before she was (??killed) by Solas? Argh, so many possibilities!


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#15
FrankWisdom

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Most of your analysis is spot-on.  There are a few assumptions and alternate theories you might want to take a look at, though:

 

1)  The identity of the Lady of the Skies.   Between her "leaf-eared" description, powerful magic, and prophetic nudging of future events, Mythal seems like the obvious candidate for the Lady on first reading the Saga.  If you look at parallels between Dalish and Avvar lore, though, a decent chunk of evidence points to a different member of the Pantheon.

 

In the codex on Lake Calenhad, the Avvar claim the lake was formed from the Lady's tears, wept when she discovered that Belenas, sacred peak of Korth the Mountain-Father, had been destroyed in his battle with the great serpent Nathramar.  Consider the potential parallel in that primordial battle with how the Dalish remember Mythal's conflict with red lyrium Andruil:  "So Mythal spread rumors of a monstrous creature and took the form of a great serpent, waiting for Andruil at the base of a mountain.  When Andruil came, Mythal sprang on the hunter. They fought for three days and nights, Andruil slashing deep gouges in the serpent's hide. But Mythal's magic sapped Andruil's strength, and stole her knowledge of how to find the Void."  In light of the potential connection, Cullen's bizarre insistence that Lake Calenhad looks "like a bunny" may not be an entirely throwaway line either, since the rabbit, or hare, is associated with Ghilan'nain in various contexts.

 

The Avvar title "Lady of the Skies" and the Lady's lore-established relationship to birds as "her children" intersect again with Ghilan'nain's depiction in Dalish myth.  In the codex describing her ascension she's established as the creator of "monsters of the air", and when approached by Andruil with an offer to join the Pantheon, she presents those she does not strike down to Andruil as a gift- further underscoring the connection between the two.  

 

Of course, this perspective suggests that Andruil is represented in Avvar myth as Korth, Mountain-Father.  The gender switch is unusual, but not impossible, since the earliest myths of the Avvar pantheon seem to date from the era when Andruil "put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face."   So, while I suspect modern Avvar myths are likely based on an "impure" composite of original entities (events attributed to the Lady may actually have been both Mythal and Ghil, and Korth may be a composite of Andruil and June) the gender question isn't a significant strike against Andruil's possible identity as Korth.  (And if you like your tinfoil theories extra thick, my personal hunch is that the Frostback Mountains themselves may be the remains of Andruil's fallen avatar from her conflict with Mythal.) 

 

2) The identity of Thelm Gold-Handed.  Noting the way Avvar mythology mirrors real-world Norse myth is an obvious place to start.  There are significant parallels between the Norse Pantheon (an admittedly warped substitute for missing Avvar lore) and the elvish Pantheon.  Granting Odin's role to Elgar'nan "the All-Father" for simplicity's sake, consider how Fen'rir parallels Fen'Harel's threat to Elgar'nan's rule, and Tyr's role in binding the wolf.  The price in the Norse version, of course, was his hand- and this may be the hint intended by the writers.  During Falon'Din-Dirthamen's first failed rebellion, Dirthamen - ostensibly the half of Order- pays the harshest penalty for the rebellion's collective action, being cast down and imprisoned as the Dread Wolf while Falon'Din is trapped in the Fade.  The moniker "Gold-Handed" may not just be a metaphor for Thelm's wealth, but rather the intentional suggestion of a gold prosthesis, emulating Tyr's lost hand.

 

Though tenuous, this might also help explain the Lady's warnings and Tyrrda's refusal to allow her people to join Thelm's warriors in their attack on the "gilded city".  His acts of apparent kindness or charity are viewed with suspicion, since an alliance is bait in a familiar trap.   Ghilan'nain would have been painfully aware of earlier failures, having seen the consequences of taking on the Pantheon first-hand.  

 

3)  "Tribes with blades by farming blunted chased and fought, their parting pains."  Not to be nitpicky, but I think this parses out to something more like "the sedentary farming tribes of Alamarri (who the Saga derisively suggests were made soft by their cushy agricultural lifestyle - literally turning their swords to plowshares) drove the Avvar out of the fertile lowlands and into the less-hospitable mountains."  

 

4)  "Sun-kissed swords to fight his wars"   I didn't notice on first reading, but this line might be intended to suggest weapons infused with red lyrium... the blood of the primordial titan Sun.   Significant, if so.

1) The Lady of the Skies could have been another god from the Elvhen Pantheon, but Mythal seems like the most likely candidate. As for the serpent. The Avvar legends could have been in reference to Mythal's battle with Andruil, though I'd see it as influence, rather than a parallel. The Lady of the Skies shedding tears for the destruction caused because of a battle between other gods warring is one thing. Mythal however was the one who turned into a serpent and fought to stop Andruil. If Mythal was the one to cause such destruction and if she is The Lady of The Skies, to cry over the same battle happening between other gods just doesn't make sense. Why would the tale morph so much as to portray her as a mourning observer rather than protector. The only similarity here is the serpent. I think it's more than a stretch, given the context. Remember that a lot of these tales are only legends told to explain natural disasters and the like. The representations sometimes hold significance but always in the right context. I also don't believe that the void is synonymous with red lyrium. I believe it to be the blight, not infected lyrium.

 

"She put on armor made of the Void, and all forgot her true face. She made weapons of darkness, and plague ate her lands."

 

If you're thinking of what Meredith did with the red lyrium Idol, I don't see it fit. I believe this to have happened much earlier than when lyrium was first infected. Also, this is a legend, so interpret the with a grain of salt. If she visited "The Forgotten Ones" realm, then I believe she was eventually infected by the blight, which in my opinion is synonymous with the void. The descent into madness, blight magic, all of it seems more likely. Spreading plague through her land, all forgot her true face. It all seems like allegory for blight infection. The armor could easily be a metaphoric representation of a transformation due to the blight. it also stands to reason that her "weapons fashioned from darkness" could simply be her using blight magic. Also Mythal turned into a great serpent and sapped Andruil's strength with her magic. It doesn't talk about destroying anything, rather it almost sounds like Mythal drained the blight from her, the same way someone sucks poison out of a wound. No matter how much is truly metaphoric, I don't see red lyrium being involved.

 

2) I don't think everyone from the saga has to be a god or something other than mortal. I see Thelm as a ruler and a despicable one at that. His, is a cautionary tale. I believe he is like the Magisters, Meghren, Calenhad (in terms of a leader and mortal, not his persona or honor) etc. Corrupt with power, pride and greed. Always wanting more. Also I believe those who whisper, the "Old Gods" are in fact "The Forgotten Ones". I think this is why The Leaf-eared lover (Mythal) would know of their corrupting influence. It also stands to reason that she probably was involved with their imprisonment, alongside Fen'Harel, which is why the Mention of the Golden City disturbed and informed her of the danger.

 

3) I'd agree with you there. I probably misinterpreted that one

 

4) Again, I doubt red lyrium was discovered at this time, let alone created. If it was the case, I believe the ramifications would have been felt on a much wider scale. Given its effects due to prolonged exposure. All of the tribes would eventually have gone mad, betraying and killing each other. The Red Templars were being directed by a self-proclaimed god. Without Coypheus and Samson to lead the fray, they would've toppled over each other like Meredith eventually did. Thelm never would've been able to lead them effectively, especially given his manipulative ways. his tribesman would always have wanted more. Eventually they would have betrayed and murdered each other. Fereldan probably wouldn't have been formed and I doubt history would have been the same.

 

Anyways, you seem very passionate about the lore, like I am. I'm glad you enjoyed the Saga deconstruction and thanks for posting your thoughts.


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#16
Aulis Vaara

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My pet theory is that humans are an intermixing of dwarves and elves. If Tyrrda's lover was an elf, then maybe Tyrrda was an elf as well, and together with her dwarven mate created one of the races of man.



#17
leaguer of one

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My pet theory is that humans are an intermixing of dwarves and elves. If Tyrrda's lover was an elf, then maybe Tyrrda was an elf as well, and together with her dwarven mate created one of the races of man.

Bright Axe is not an elf.



#18
Shari'El

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My pet theory is that humans are an intermixing of dwarves and elves. If Tyrrda's lover was an elf, then maybe Tyrrda was an elf as well, and together with her dwarven mate created one of the races of man.

 

There aren't any hint that Tyrdda is an elf, if she were her lover ears wouldn't have mattered and I don't think it would've been mentioned in the saga.

Also, Elf + Dwarf = Dwarf, like Elf + Human = Human. Elf genes are fickle like that, there aren't Half-Elves like in other fantasy worlds.

I don't know what happens when a human & dwarf mate though, it hasn't been addressed anywhere.


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#19
Yaroub

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I don't know what happens when a human & dwarf mate though, it hasn't been addressed anywhere.

 

Human+dwarf= short human, as humans have the dominant gene.

 

And a Dwarf warden could always produce a kid with Morrigan.

 

Sandal being half dwarf/human could explain his unusual abilities.

 

Also Blackwall probably half human half dwarf, That glorious beard of his is definitely dwarf material.



#20
Heimdall

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I actually think elves are descendants of spirits that became something more, like Cole becoming more human, and the reason children of elves and other races aren't elves is because the other races are "more real" as Cole would put it.
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#21
Reznore57

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I actually think elves are descendants of spirits that became something more, like Cole becoming more human, and the reason children of elves and other races aren't elves is because the other races are "more real" as Cole would put it.

 

It's possible something like that happened.

When you meet the OGB as an elf he asks you "Why did you choose to look like that?"...Well err...

It makes more sense if you think about the fact elves were shapeshifters .In DAO , Morrigan and a Dalish can talk about this , because some Dalish knows about shapeshifting...Morrigan points out it's strange.

And who can "shapeshift " too , spirits...like the spirit of faith taking the form of Divine Justinia.

 

The only flaw in the theory is...to shapeshift you need to study a soul , so you need an example.



#22
madrar

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1) The Lady of the Skies could have been another god from the Elvhen Pantheon, but Mythal seems like the most likely candidate. As for the serpent. The Avvar legends could have been in reference to Mythal's battle with Andruil, though I'd see it as influence, rather than a parallel. The Lady of the Skies shedding tears for the destruction caused because of a battle between other gods warring is one thing. Mythal however was the one who turned into a serpent and fought to stop Andruil. If Mythal was the one to cause such destruction and if she is The Lady of The Skies, to cry over the same battle happening between other gods just doesn't make sense. Why would the tale morph so much as to portray her as a mourning observer rather than protector. The only similarity here is the serpent. I think it's more than a stretch, given the context. Remember that a lot of these tales are only legends told to explain natural disasters and the like. The representations sometimes hold significance but always in the right context. I also don't believe that the void is synonymous with red lyrium. I believe it to be the blight, not infected lyrium.

 

Whoa, you lost me.  The point of presenting the two myths wasn't to suggest that Mythal created Lake Calenhad- just the opposite.  The correlation would make her the "great serpent" in each, identifiable as Nathramar in the Avvar version, which suggests Ghilan'nain (again) fills the role of the Lady in mourning Andruil's defeat.  (Reading between the lines of Dalish myth suggests Ghil and Andruil were... close.   Also, Ghil's inferred interest/skill with genetic manipulation could help explain her purpose in setting up the Avvar bloodline.)  

 

Mythal feels like a clunky fit in other ways as well.  Her domain is primarily associated with water (Fade) rather than air, she's never been known to have a phenotypically elven avatar, almost always fills the role of wife/possibility in a magic Fission Triad, and is generally quite a bit less "hands-on" in shaping events than the Saga suggests the Lady to be.   It's not impossible, but seems less likely than the alternative.

 

As for things being "only legend":  historic facts may be warped in the retelling, but the myths and stories that endure are rarely made from whole cloth.  Metaphors and allegories also seem to translate as literal fact more often than not.  Consider how the Jungian personal unconscious maps to a dreamer's fade, how a shared collective unconscious translates into the raw "true" Fade, and how each is populated by literal neurological "daemons", to be understood and used to personal advantage or feared and suppressed to the detriment of the conscious mind- the "real world" on the other side of the veil.  Examples of real-world concepts made literal are everywhere in Thedas.  Given that, I'd be reluctant to attribute much of anything to natural causes, the laws of physics, geology, biology, etc.

 

That aside, I agree that there's a difference between red lyrium and "the darkness".  Blight is absolutely distinct from red lyrium, though red lyrium seems to be blighted.  Still, sometimes the line seems to blur.   Consider Andruil.  The ToM codex describes her corruption in terms we instinctively associate with blight:  she crafted armor "made of the Void" and "weapons of darkness", while "plague ate her lands".  All descriptions that prime us for blight, not red lyrium.  Still, the visual cues in her ToM mosaic are suggestive of flame / red lyrium growth, a la Corypheus:

 

Spoiler

 

And Corypheus' connection to each isn't straightforward either, though I already touched on that mess over on the Solas thread.  The two are almost like the Abyss and the Void: not at all the same thing, but still... somehow linked.

 

2) I don't think everyone from the saga has to be a god or something other than mortal. I see Thelm as a ruler and a despicable one at that. His, is a cautionary tale. I believe he is like the Magisters, Meghren, Calenhad (in terms of a leader and mortal, not his persona or honor) etc. Corrupt with power, pride and greed. Always wanting more. Also I believe those who whisper, the "Old Gods" are in fact "The Forgotten Ones". I think this is why The Leaf-eared lover (Mythal) would know of their corrupting influence. It also stands to reason that she probably was involved with their imprisonment, alongside Fen'Harel, which is why the Mention of the Golden City disturbed and informed her of the danger.

 

True, not every notable figure has to be a God.  Thelm may have been a mortal mouthpiece, but without a direct connection to the Pantheon, it's tough to explain the interest of a random Alamarri tribe in attacking the "gilded city" to the north.  (A single band of tribal humans taking on Arlathan at the height of its power?  owO   Good luck to them.) 

 

4) Again, I doubt red lyrium was discovered at this time, let alone created. If it was the case, I believe the ramifications would have been felt on a much wider scale. Given its effects due to prolonged exposure. All of the tribes would eventually have gone mad, betraying and killing each other. The Red Templars were being directed by a self-proclaimed god. Without Coypheus and Samson to lead the fray, they would've toppled over each other like Meredith eventually did. Thelm never would've been able to lead them effectively, especially given his manipulative ways. his tribesman would always have wanted more. Eventually they would have betrayed and murdered each other. Fereldan probably wouldn't have been formed and I doubt history would have been the same.

 

Mmm.  I'm not convinced red lyrium is all that new.   Petroglyphs that seem to date to the fall of Arlathan suggest it may have been the "terrible weapon" sought and used by both sides of the elvhen civil war, and the red lyrium idol itself (theorized to have been Elgar'nan's focus) is likely far older than that.

 

Still more gaps than evidence at this point, though.  ^w^  We'll have to wait and see. 



#23
Shari'El

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Human+dwarf= short human, as humans have the dominant gene.

 

And a Dwarf warden could always produce a kid with Morrigan.

 

Sandal being half dwarf/human could explain his unusual abilities.

 

Also Blackwall probably half human half dwarf, That glorious beard of his is definitely dwarf material.

 

1) Blackwall XD

2) Yeah, I'm pretty sure most species can intermix.

3) Do we know for sure that humans have the dominant gene? Or is this based on Kieran existence?



#24
FrankWisdom

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Whoa, you lost me.  The point of presenting the two myths wasn't to suggest that Mythal created Lake Calenhad- just the opposite.  The correlation would make her the "great serpent" in each, identifiable as Nathramar in the Avvar version, which suggests Ghilan'nain (again) fills the role of the Lady in mourning Andruil's defeat.  (Reading between the lines of Dalish myth suggests Ghil and Andruil were... close.   Also, Ghil's inferred interest/skill with genetic manipulation could help explain her purpose in setting up the Avvar bloodline.)  

 

Mythal feels like a clunky fit in other ways as well.  Her domain is primarily associated with water (Fade) rather than air, she's never been known to have a phenotypically elven avatar, almost always fills the role of wife/possibility in a magic Fission Triad, and is generally quite a bit less "hands-on" in shaping events than the Saga suggests the Lady to be.   It's not impossible, but seems less likely than the alternative.

 

As for things being "only legend":  historic facts may be warped in the retelling, but the myths and stories that endure are rarely made from whole cloth.  Metaphors and allegories also seem to translate as literal fact more often than not.  Consider how the Jungian personal unconscious maps to a dreamer's fade, how a shared collective unconscious translates into the raw "true" Fade, and how each is populated by literal neurological "daemons", to be understood and used to personal advantage or feared and suppressed to the detriment of the conscious mind- the "real world" on the other side of the veil.  Examples of real-world concepts made literal are everywhere in Thedas.  Given that, I'd be reluctant to attribute much of anything to natural causes, the laws of physics, geology, biology, etc.

 

That aside, I agree that there's a difference between red lyrium and "the darkness".  Blight is absolutely distinct from red lyrium, though red lyrium seems to be blighted.  Still, sometimes the line seems to blur.   Consider Andruil.  The ToM codex describes her corruption in terms we instinctively associate with blight:  she crafted armor "made of the Void" and "weapons of darkness", while "plague ate her lands".  All descriptions that prime us for blight, not red lyrium.  Still, the visual cues in her ToM mosaic are suggestive of flame / red lyrium growth, a la Corypheus:

 

Spoiler

 

And Corypheus' connection to each isn't straightforward either, though I already touched on that mess over on the Solas thread.  The two are almost like the Abyss and the Void: not at all the same thing, but still... somehow linked.

 

 

True, not every notable figure has to be a God.  Thelm may have been a mortal mouthpiece, but without a direct connection to the Pantheon, it's tough to explain the interest of a random Alamarri tribe in attacking the "gilded city" to the north.  (A single band of tribal humans taking on Arlathan at the height of its power?  owO   Good luck to them.) 

 

 

Mmm.  I'm not convinced red lyrium is all that new.   Petroglyphs that seem to date to the fall of Arlathan suggest it may have been the "terrible weapon" sought and used by both sides of the elvhen civil war, and the red lyrium idol itself (theorized to have been Elgar'nan's focus) is likely far older than that.

 

Still more gaps than evidence at this point, though.  ^w^  We'll have to wait and see. 

 

If I misinterpreted your meaning about Mythal being The Lady in The Skies than I apologize. Apart from Ghilan'nain having once been a mortal Elvhen woman and having said to be Andruil's lover, I don't see her fitting any other facet of the LoTS, especially given she is the mother of all Halla, an earthbound animal, hardly a fitting representation of a goddess who is supposed to rule the skies (and the dead). Also I don't see Andruil being represented as Belenas, sacred peak of Korth the Mountain-Father. I feel like you're looking way to closely at the picture without considering the whole.

 

For example. If you want to use this Avvar Myth as an inspired tale from another legend how about this one:

 

Beast no blade could break came roaring, mountains slipped their winter gown,

 

Tyrdda shouts to leaf-eared lover, "You I chose above a crown!"

 Lightning split the spitting rains, Sundered over prideful heights, 

Dragon fell in rubble down, Crashed and crushed in earth's mad shaking.

 

"But it was destroyed in the battle between Korth and the serpent Nathramar, leaving only a vast crater behind."

 

These verses seem to fit more with what happened in the "Codex entry: Lake Calenhad" then it does with the battle between Mythal and Andruil.

 

When you start looking hard enough, you can make parallels with many things. The lines start to blur when them fitting and you trying to make them fit both become synonymous with one another.

 

You use the unconscious collective as an example of real-world influence as a way to explain The Fade for example. I admit there are many parallels. Manifestations of fears through Demons, the "primordial images" and instinctive shaping of reactive and fluid space around you into things that influence us in minor and major ways (Codex entry: The Laws of Nature in the Fade). This is however, also easily described simply as dreaming, which is associated to the collective unconscious (or the objective psyche as it's now called) but not it's whole. Just because the writers took an aspect of a real-world concept, it doesn't mean the rest of that concept holds true in the universe they've created i.e. Everyone that dreams manifests through The Fade. This doesn't automatically mean that The Fade is then their collective unconscious. If The Fade and Thedas are separated by the veil, then how does one explain The Fade when it was part of Thedas, before the veil. The point I'm trying to make here, is that parallels aren't "proof of concept". You seem to delve into a concept and create a narrative of your own around it.

 

"As for things being "only legend":  historic facts may be warped in the retelling, but the myths and stories that endure are rarely made from whole cloth.  Metaphors and allegories also seem to translate as literal fact more often than not."

 

I disagree. Read any poem or interpret any piece of art and tell me it will invoke in you the exact same emotions and images it does in someone else. Solas makes it a point to explain to us that events he experiences in The Fade are often hard to describe accurately, as they are viewed from different perspectives, experienced in a different way. When asked which is real, he points out that both are real, as they are felt on equal footing, just felt differently. The same is true with legend and myth. Culture, politics the need for grandeur and over-exaggeration, translation, memory, all of it can lead to massive misinterpretation, sometimes simply because of perspective. One word is all it takes, then Metaphors and allegory can easily become a caricature of events that were first described. Not to say it's always the case, but as I stated before, just put it in context while trying to stay objective.

 

You say the Mosaics are "suggestive of flame / red lyrium growth". Really? See my interpretation is different, not better, not right, different. I see a bald, Elvhen Archer with a gauntlet & spaulder akin to what Abelas wears drawing its bow, surrounded by a shroud, representative of magic or more likely, tree branches? Seeing as she is the creator of the "Way of Three Trees" i.e. The arrow, The Bow and The Forest, wouldn't that make more sense? If flames were what was surrounding her I'd see them as less rounded near the ends, rather more jagged like. Do you see where I'm getting at? What is the basis for these "visual cues"? Which other Elvhen works of art that we've seen can you compare this to? We don't Even know what the Elvhen Pantheon truly were. I always try to theorize within what we are given, the frame of reference, if not, you get lost in what you see rather than what is shown.

 

Examples of real-world concepts made literal are everywhere in Thedas. Given that, I'd be reluctant to attribute much of anything to natural causes, the laws of physics, geology, biology, etc.

 

Why? Just because the writers are inspired by real-world concepts to create their fantastic elements? (Even if it is by making these real-world elements literally come to life). They used fantasy tropes and combined them with real-world concepts to make something original. That doesn't stop them from being mutually exclusive. Good writing is about being able to tip the balance when it serves the story. David Gaider stated himself that he wanted the world of Dragon Age to feel like fantasy grounded in reality. How people would react if magic actually existed, if other fantastical races existed etc. Basically what I'm trying to say is he wants to keep reactions and societal behaviors grounded in reality while still exploring and developing the fantastic elements, which is why so many themes are inspired by real world events, cultures history as well as societal issues.

 

To address your response though. The point I was trying to make when I said ("Remember that a lot of these tales are only legends told to explain natural disasters and the like. The representations sometimes hold significance but always in the right context.") was that the cause i.e. ( I'd be reluctant to attribute much of anything to natural causes, the laws of physics, geology, biology, etc.") is not the issue, it's about the perception of those who create the narrative, who tell the story. I was simply using a real-world example of how things become skewed due to very colorful descriptions based on cultural context (as mentioned above).

 

As for Corypheus, what he had was power, position, pride and most of all, willingness. He was ready to do what most would not. He was a mortal who wished to be a god. Who's greed and arrogance made him easy to manipulate even if everyone else had to pay the price. That you don't see the parallel between him and Thelm is what intrigues me, rather than looking towards gods. This is about mortals reaching above their stations and what we define ourselves as. His was the same tale, albeit one told with more humble beginnings. As for the whisperers finding him. It doesn't always have to be about pre-established dealings or worship. Remember, it's said that spirits can feel strong emotions from within The Fade as well as "mine a Fade visitor's mind for their thoughts and memories". If "The Forgotten Ones" were those who whispered (what I believe anyways) and they wanted out of The Golden City, then they'd probably be searching for dreamers with the same characteristics that Corypheus had (I'm also guessing they'd have the ability to sense someone given they could whisper from across The Fade). Position, power, pride, greed etc. this would logically explain the circumstances. Also, there aren't any specific details in the Saga, especially when talking about the villain, who was only present through half of it. 

"Mmm.  I'm not convinced red lyrium is all that new. Petroglyphs that seem to date to the fall of Arlathan suggest it may have been the "terrible weapon" sought and used by both sides of the elvhen civil war, and the red lyrium idol itself (theorized to have been Elgar'nan's focus) is likely far older than that."

 

Again, this is conjecture based on interpretation of "art". The "terrible weapon" could've been a person, the Elvhen orbs, an event. It's not enough to use as a viable argument in my opinion. Themes paint too broad a picture, especially given what we have to work with at this point.

 

 

Anyways that's just the way I see it. I Enjoy theorizing and exploring lore but I think we all need to approach it from an objective stance, balancing what fits and what doesn't while keeping an open mind but most importantly considering the context. That's why I like discussing, sharing and debating. When people point out legitimate flaws in my theories, or bring new information from their own that either adds to or changes the concept entirely we can keep perspective all the while constantly improving on our puzzles until the picture is framed and set.

 

Nothing I say by the way is meant as an insult or said in a condescending tone. I enjoy reading your theories. It's just that sometimes it feels far-removed from the subject matter the farther down the rabbit hole you go.


  • Shari'El et Abelis aiment ceci

#25
Aulis Vaara

Aulis Vaara
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I actually think elves are descendants of spirits that became something more, like Cole becoming more human, and the reason children of elves and other races aren't elves is because the other races are "more real" as Cole would put it.

 

Spirits feed off of the emotions of living being. Without any living beings, it is impossible for them to even have the power to become human like Cole. No, spirits did not "evolve" into Elves. No living beings means no emotions/ideas, means no spirits.