79 réponses à ce sujet

[Snakebite]

Well my winters breath still says 10% and you're not going to get 12K on a lego in nightmare you sound like you're talking about threatening or perilous

 

I believe he is talking about both components of the Lunge & Slash combined hitting for 12K, which is not out of the realm of possibility.  I use Lunge & Slash without the ring and without the Winter's Breath (I still don't have it), and I can hit for around 6K or 7K when both hits are added together.  Hakkon weapon crit damage is no joke, and upgraded Lunge & Slash hits harder the farther away the target is.

 

You can also spam the ability because it has a short cooldown, and if hitting from a distance there is no cooldown.

 

P.S. I have personally seen Proto hit for over 10K with Lunge & Slash on Nightmare.

 

Edit:  Ninja'd by Proto.

[Drasca]

My L&S hit quite regularly for 5-6K per swing on low armor targets. The ability has two swings = 12K. This happens on NM. Like I mentioned, I've been using the enhanced ring as well as the Wintersbreath shield. Second ring is a SCD(Superb Crit Damage). I use the Hakkon sword.

 

That is basically what I do with shield bash unless the target is guard based, then the damage skyrockets. Both detonate of course. This is without the enhanced ring, so I might have to try it out with the ring.

 

I use March of the Everlasting. I was wondering when the winters breath shield finally worked.

 

Its fun to Leroy through HB on occasion too though. With your stats & gear I'm sure you'll steamroll through it when you want.

[TheThirdRace]

To rate characters for Nightmare, you have to take into account a couple things.

 

Considering:

1. Great equipment
2. Promotions around 50/50/50 (not including +10 base)
3. Moderately skilled players

Then I'd classify the characters like this: (Off: Offense, Def: Defense, CC: Crowd Control)

• Top Tier
  • Arcane Warrior (Off: 5/10, Def: 9/10, CC: 10/10)
    • POTA is a skill that opens up a lot of options, even Spirit Blade can become a moderately ok damaging ability with it
  • Archer (Off: 10/10, Def: 8/10, CC: 6/10)
    • Fallback Plan is more than amazing for your "defense"
    • Leaping Shot upgrade and Explosive Shots knockdowns gives you somewhat OK crowd control
  • Assassin (Off: 9/10, Def: 7/10, CC: 5/10)
    • She's the hardest character to play. She can be amazing in the right hands
    • Stealth and her offensive abilities are giving her the ability to somewhat control the battlefield by picking up the biggest threat as soon as possible
  • Elementalist (Off: 6/10, Def: 9/10, CC: 10/10)
    • The damage is not great, but his defense and crowd control make him a top addition to a team
  • Legionnaire (Off: 6/10, Def: 10/10, CC: 8/10)
    • His strong suit is by far his defense
    • The buffs to taunting are making keeping aggro a lot easier for a somewhat good crowd control
  • Reaver (Off: 15/10, Def: 9/10, CC: 8/10)
    • Except against a dragon, she's by far the character that deals the most damage and she can sustain it almost indefinitely
    • The bigger your HP pool, the better she gets because of the Heal on Hit
    • War Horn is amazing on her (full health regen when hitting 2 or more enemies)
  • Silent Sister (Off: 10/10, Def: 10/10, CC: 7/10)
    • Amazing sustainable damage
    • Amazing sustainable defense as long as you don't stop attacking
    • Great crowd control with fear effects
    • Totally screwed by enemies with shield...
  • Templar (Off: 8/10, Def: 9/10, CC: 7/10)
    • The Wombo combo can deal upward 15 to 20K to whole group, too bad she can't sustain that!
    • Not as good as a Lego for defense, but damn she's sturdy
    • With the amount of stuns and Shield Bash you dish out, you can control the battlefield with relative efficiency
• Ok Tier
  • Alchemist (Off: 7/10, Def: 6/10, CC:8/10)
    • Mines, Mines, Mines... That's all it really brings to the battle. They're as good as the player is with them, but they're still "static" which means they'll never be "incredible"
  • Duelist (Off: 8/10, Def: 7/10, CC: 5/10)
    • Her elusives are fast gone, but if you can sustain them she can be very good
    • Not much options for crowd control, but that's not where you should concentrate your efforts either...
  • Hunter (Off: 8/10, Def: 7/10, CC: 7/10)
    • What's preventing the Hunter from being a Top Tier character is his disjointed skill trees and the long cooldowns
  • Katari (Off: 5/10, Def: 7/10, CC: 9/10)
    • Deals ok damage, but it isn't amazing. The damage is also more "sustained" instead of being in burst like most of the other characters
    • He has great options for crowd control
    • His defense is on the weak side, but Guard on Hit is good enough to sustain him afloat
  • Keeper (Off: 3/10, Def: 8/10, CC: 10/10)
    • Barrier isn't what it used to be and there are now more characters that don't need Barrier to survive
    • Static Cage / Disruption Field are still top of the line crowd control
    • Don't expect a Keeper to carry you, the damage is very bad...
  • Necromancer (Off: 8/10, Def: 6/10, CC: 8/10)
    • Her recent DOT buff is helping a lot with her damage, but not enough to be considered Top Tier
    • Her defense has never been really great, better not get hit
    • I don't consider Spirit Mark being "amazing" for self-revives...
    • Walking Bomb is still an amazing crowd control ability, but she has also other options
  • Virtuoso (Off: 7/10, Def: 8/10, CC: 5/10)
    • His best ability on Nightmare is Power Chord, but the immunities can make him very bad on some situations
    • Power Chord is simply amazing for damage (on the enemies not immune to it) and for removing Barriers, too bad he doesn't really have anything else that can deal that kind of damage, that's what's holding him on the "ok" list
    • He has no crowd control per say, but some of his buffs are great so I went for a 5/10 on CC to compensate
• Meh Tier
  • Avvar (Off: 6/10, Def: 4/10, CC: 7/10)
    • Does have a couple good options for crowd control
    • His damage being Elemental is not really well suited for Nightmare with all the immunities around
    • His defenses are horrible, but I've seen great players being able to manage with that...

 

Remember, this is all based on my personal experience on Nightmare, what I've seen playing with good player that are or aren't on the leaderboard. Your mileage can vary as skills, equipment, play style and teammates can influence the results. Anyhow, I think my ratings are mostly accurate if you don't focus too much on the numbers, but on the idea behind the ratings.

[Wavebend]

lol @ this thread

[Headbasher]

So out of payback and shield bash which would you replace with with L&S ? prob payback since bash has the massive guard dmg bonus? 

[Yallegro]

To rate characters for Nightmare, you have to take into account a couple things.

 

Considering:

1. Great equipment
2. Promotions around 50/50/50 (not including +10 base)
3. Moderately skilled players

Then I'd classify the characters like this: (Off: Offense, Def: Defense, CC: Crowd Control)

• Top Tier
  • Arcane Warrior (Off: 5/10, Def: 9/10, CC: 10/10)
    • POTA is a skill that opens up a lot of options, even Spirit Blade can become a moderately ok damaging ability with it
  • Archer (Off: 10/10, Def: 8/10, CC: 6/10)
    • Fallback Plan is more than amazing for your "defense"
    • Leaping Shot upgrade and Explosive Shots knockdowns gives you somewhat OK crowd control
  • Assassin (Off: 9/10, Def: 7/10, CC: 5/10)
    • She's the hardest character to play. She can be amazing in the right hands
    • Stealth and her offensive abilities are giving her the ability to somewhat control the battlefield by picking up the biggest threat as soon as possible
  • Elementalist (Off: 6/10, Def: 9/10, CC: 10/10)
    • The damage is not great, but his defense and crowd control make him a top addition to a team
  • Legionnaire (Off: 6/10, Def: 10/10, CC: 8/10)
    • His strong suit is by far his defense
    • The buffs to taunting are making keeping aggro a lot easier for a somewhat good crowd control
  • Reaver (Off: 15/10, Def: 9/10, CC: 8/10)
    • Except against a dragon, she's by far the character that deals the most damage and she can sustain it almost indefinitely
    • The bigger your HP pool, the better she gets because of the Heal on Hit
    • War Horn is amazing on her (full health regen when hitting 2 or more enemies)
  • Silent Sister (Off: 10/10, Def: 10/10, CC: 7/10)
    • Amazing sustainable damage
    • Amazing sustainable defense as long as you don't stop attacking
    • Great crowd control with fear effects
    • Totally screwed by enemies with shield...
  • Templar (Off: 8/10, Def: 9/10, CC: 7/10)
    • The Wombo combo can deal upward 15 to 20K to whole group, too bad she can't sustain that!
    • Not as good as a Lego for defense, but damn she's sturdy
    • With the amount of stuns and Shield Bash you dish out, you can control the battlefield with relative efficiency
• Ok Tier
  • Alchemist (Off: 7/10, Def: 6/10, CC:8/10)
    • Mines, Mines, Mines... That's all it really brings to the battle. They're as good as the player is with them, but they're still "static" which means they'll never be "incredible"
  • Duelist (Off: 8/10, Def: 7/10, CC: 5/10)
    • Her elusives are fast gone, but if you can sustain them she can be very good
    • Not much options for crowd control, but that's not where you should concentrate your efforts either...
  • Hunter (Off: 8/10, Def: 7/10, CC: 7/10)
    • What's preventing the Hunter from being a Top Tier character is his disjointed skill trees and the long cooldowns
  • Katari (Off: 5/10, Def: 7/10, CC: 9/10)
    • Deals ok damage, but it isn't amazing. The damage is also more "sustained" instead of being in burst like most of the other characters
    • He has great options for crowd control
    • His defense is on the weak side, but Guard on Hit is good enough to sustain him afloat
  • Keeper (Off: 3/10, Def: 8/10, CC: 10/10)
    • Barrier isn't what it used to be and there are now more characters that don't need Barrier to survive
    • Static Cage / Disruption Field are still top of the line crowd control
    • Don't expect a Keeper to carry you, the damage is very bad...
  • Necromancer (Off: 8/10, Def: 6/10, CC: 8/10)
    • Her recent DOT buff is helping a lot with her damage, but not enough to be considered Top Tier
    • Her defense has never been really great, better not get hit
    • I don't consider Spirit Mark being "amazing" for self-revives...
    • Walking Bomb is still an amazing crowd control ability, but she has also other options
  • Virtuoso (Off: 7/10, Def: 8/10, CC: 5/10)
    • His best ability on Nightmare is Power Chord, but the immunities can make him very bad on some situations
    • Power Chord is simply amazing for damage (on the enemies not immune to it) and for removing Barriers, too bad he doesn't really have anything else that can deal that kind of damage, that's what's holding him on the "ok" list
    • He has no crowd control per say, but some of his buffs are great so I went for a 5/10 on CC to compensate
• Meh Tier
  • Avvar (Off: 6/10, Def: 4/10, CC: 7/10)
    • Does have a couple good options for crowd control
    • His damage being Elemental is not really well suited for Nightmare with all the immunities around
    • His defenses are horrible, but I've seen great players being able to manage with that...

 

Remember, this is all based on my personal experience on Nightmare, what I've seen playing with good player that are or aren't on the leaderboard. Your mileage can vary as skills, equipment, play style and teammates can influence the results. Anyhow, I think my ratings are mostly accurate if you don't focus too much on the numbers, but on the idea behind the ratings.

 

Learn to play Avvar

 

You give him 2 points less defense than the alchemist and 3 less than the hunter. He does easily get 60% dmg resistance or higher ya know

 

If you can hit the right enemies with the right elemental attacks you'll see that a 6 in offense is just wrong

 

[TheThirdRace]

Learn to play Avvar

Learn politeness...

If you disagree with my Avvar's rating then give him a better score yourself, no need to be a **** about it.

I for one disagree with 95% of your builds for Nightmare in your thread. I find them terribad for multiples reasons. Do you see me post it in your thread? No, I know better and let you do what works for you...

[DrakeHasNoFlow]

Avvar isn't great in nm, and not as dominant as he once was in perilous pre patch because of faction elemental resistances to lady's wrath and crushing leap. That said, having best gear and accessories can go a long way with him. Since he does not have any armor passives, he is very squishy in nm even with a fair bit of promotions hence why there would be better choices for a player like reaver and even templar.

[Yallegro]

Learn politeness...

If you disagree with my Avvar's rating then give him a better score yourself, no need to be a **** about it.

I for one disagree with 95% of your builds for Nightmare in your thread. I find them terribad for multiples reasons. Do you see me post it in your thread? No, I know better and let you do what works for you...

 

Learn to play is a pretty neutral statement in this context

 

The fact that he is the only class on your "meh" list should be an indicator that you are not being even remotely objective

 

Last, I dare you to list those reasons right now

[Yallegro]

ROFL 'tons of damage' rofl. Yep, this is why you're in the minor leagues.

 

Firestorm does 85% mage dmg

 

Static Cage

 

 

• 1H Warrior: 37.5%
• 2H Warrior: 32.5%
• Dagger Rogue: 37.5%
• Bow Rogue: 37.5%
• Staff Mage: 50%
• Spirit Blade Mage: 50%

Per hit, combines with AoE 

 

And Static Cage has superior crowd control

 

That you would promote Firestorm and dish on Static Cage is just downright stupid

[KalGerion_Beast]

And Static Cage has superior crowd control

I disagree.  Static Cage has an up and down time.  Firestorm, with proper use of flashpoint, has no downtime at all.  

 

Plus, Firestorm is better for incapacitating enemies.  All Static Cage is really effective against are melee units.  Ranged units just sit within the cage and continue to attack.  Firestorm puts everything that it can on the ground completely incapacitated, forever.   

 

Not to say Static Cage isnt useful, but theres a reason Firestorm (theoretically) has a 60 second cooldown.  

[htisscrimbliv]

ROFL 'tons of damage' rofl. Yep, this is why you're in the minor leagues.

Are you serious? I cant help but think this is a joke but thinking back at some of your builds i guess it's possible. Static cage against any non electric resistant enemies is arguably one of the most damaging things you can do, even if your teamates are off somewhere doing there own thing. Not to mention how bad it messes up dragons. Assuming you're not soloing, they'll usually be at least one other teamate by you that can essentially double that damage. Situational, but extremely damaging when used right.

[Johnsen1972]

If you want to point out the strong and weak classes you always have to take your number of promotions into that consideration.

Because the classes change while you get more and more promotions.

 

Im at 80/82/82 and for me AW, Reaver, Archer. SilentSis are the strongest chars for NM.

Someone with for eg.10 promotions will never be able to run NM with a reaver or an archer.

 

So pretty much like the OP posted the AW wins. Because he scales with damage mostly and he is not as much promotion depened like other classes.

[Bearform]

Just the fact that one can cast firestorm indefinablely (20% of the time i got 2 going) makes it a superior crowd control skill, along with reasons kal listed. Damage wise prob better too just given opportunity cost of static cage due to cool down.

Really felt FS full brunt while playing HB against RTs. When u get firestormed.... its no fun at all....

[Yallegro]

Look, people have to stop making these statements that only apply to high cunning characters

 

On top of that, Static Cage does not have a bad cooldown time if you take into account Gathering Storm, Winter's Stillness and Clean Burn

 

Have you seen my video? Static Cage is up almost all the time.

 

It is also not true that it only applies to melee enemies, it also traps mages, Despair demons and lets not forget how often archers try and run away from you

 

Trapping by Static Cage applies to way more enemies than knockdown and it can set off combos

 

Static Cage can be auto-aimed on console, Firestorm has to be slowly dragged.

 

Static Cage is better at setting up other AoE abilities because it groups enemies in a smaller field

 

Static Cage has way better damage

[TheThirdRace]

Learn to play is a pretty neutral statement in this context
 
The fact that he is the only class on your "meh" list should be an indicator that you are not being even remotely objective
 
Last, I dare you to list those reasons right now

Learn to play is never neutral, if you don't get that then you're lacking social skills...

I don't hate the Avvar at all, I thinks he's a monster on Perilous, but in Nightmare he doesn't scale well at all. Is it a "l2p"? I don't think so because the only people I've seen do remotely OK with him on Nightmare are people with twice my promotions and I am in the middle of the leaderboard so I guess it's not just me having problems with him...

Lol, are you out of your mind!?!?!? I won't waste hours to convince someone on the Internet. My opinion is most of your builds aren't efficient at all for Nightmare, you're gonna have to either ignore me or find out by yourself why, I won't put any effort into this...

[Spin-Orbit]

Learn to play is never neutral, if you don't get that then you're lacking social skills...

I don't hate the Avvar at all, I thinks he's a monster on Perilous, but in Nightmare he doesn't scale well at all. Is it a "l2p"? I don't think so because the only people I've seen do remotely OK with him on Nightmare are people with twice my promotions and I am in the middle of the leaderboard so I guess it's not just me having problems with him...

Lol, are you out of your mind!?!?!? I won't waste hours to convince someone on the Internet. My opinion is most of your builds aren't efficient at all for Nightmare, you're gonna have to either ignore me or find out by yourself why, I won't put any effort into this...

 

 

Learn to play is a pretty neutral statement in this context

 

The fact that he is the only class on your "meh" list should be an indicator that you are not being even remotely objective

 

Last, I dare you to list those reasons right now

 

Yallegro you were a Avvar when I Teabagged you in NM

[Yallegro]

Learn to play is never neutral, if you don't get that then you're lacking social skills...

I don't hate the Avvar at all, I thinks he's a monster on Perilous, but in Nightmare he doesn't scale well at all. Is it a "l2p"? I don't think so because the only people I've seen do remotely OK with him on Nightmare are people with twice my promotions and I am in the middle of the leaderboard so I guess it's not just me having problems with him...

Lol, are you out of your mind!?!?!? I won't waste hours to convince someone on the Internet. My opinion is most of your builds aren't efficient at all for Nightmare, you're gonna have to either ignore me or find out by yourself why, I won't put any effort into this...

 

Yes, hours, takes that long for you to come up with those "oh so apparent" flaws in my builds

 

You usually make sense but now you're acting like a cowardly troll. 

 

I meet a lot of people that play avvar just fine and I see way more people that can play avvar well than there are people who can play alchemist/assassin/necromancer well

 

Surviving with the avvar can be done very easily with just Korth's Might + Hakkon's Charge + Chilled Defense. If you have that you can kick ass in a multitude of ways. That you don't know this simple thing makes me conclude that you have never given the class a fair trial. And that's l2p

 

 

Yallegro you were a Avvar when I Teabagged you in NM

 

 

Credible much

[TheThirdRace]

Yes, hours, takes that long for you to come up with those "oh so apparent" flaws in my builds

Yes, you do have a lot of builds. Writing a detailed analysis of why it's not my cup of tea for each one of them will take me hours. Sorry but that's how it is, I make complete sentences with paragraphs and all, I don't write that "texting" language where every combination of 3 letters can replace any word in the dictionary...
 

You usually make sense but now you're acting like a cowardly troll.

I really don't troll often, but when I do it's obvious. This ain't trolling in case you weren't able to tell the difference.
 

I meet a lot of people that play avvar just fine and I see way more people that can play avvar well than there are people who can play alchemist/assassin/necromancer well

On that we agree, people are pretty bad with those characters.
 

Surviving with the avvar can be done very easily with just Korth's Might + Hakkon's Charge + Chilled Defense. If you have that you can kick ass in a multitude of ways. That you don't know this simple thing makes me conclude that you have never given the class a fair trial. And that's l2p

I do know that, but in my experience it simply didn't work well.

I just played a game with a friend that told me the Avvar is much better defensively than the Templar and almost as good as the Lego. He's pretty much around my position on the leaderboard, a lot of promotions and play very well. First wave he died. Second wave he died twice and had to rejoin. Third wave he died once. Fourth wave he died 4 times, had to rejoin in-between. But that %Damage Resistance! I mean, you can get almost 100%! I swear it's godly!

While that happened, I didn't die once as a Templar and I soloed half wave 4 while the 3 others rejoined...

 

So yes, I do know that %Damage Resistance pretty well. I've seen it in action and most importantly, I've tried it myself multiple times. It doesn't work well, it simply doesn't. Being able to only die once a wave isn't what I call good... The only players I've seen being able to do well with him have about 200 promotions on each stats. Those around 110 promotions on each stats, like myself, don't do especially great with it, I've only seen 2 people being able to survive well, but then their damage is bad so why bother? There must be someone somewhere with low promotions that can use him well, I've never seen it, but I'm sure it exists... somewhere...

[LearnedHand]

So yes, I do know that %Damage Resistance pretty well. I've seen it in action and most importantly, I've tried it myself multiple times. It doesn't work well, it simply doesn't. Being able to only die once a wave isn't what I call good... The only players I've seen being able to do well with him have about 200 promotions on each stats. Those around 110 promotions on each stats, like myself, don't do especially great with it, I've only seen 2 people being able to survive well, but then their damage is bad so why bother? There must be someone somewhere with low promotions that can use him well, I've never seen it, but I'm sure it exists... somewhere...

Theoretically, the avvar should be a lot tankier given the ease with which you can activate all that damage resistance but something is clearly off. I've never seen anyone offer any insight into what that might be.

[Drasca]

Are you serious? I cant help but think this is a joke but thinking back at some of your builds i guess it's possible. Static cage against any non electric resistant enemies is arguably one of the most damaging things you can do, even if your teamates are off somewhere doing there own thing. Not to mention how bad it messes up dragons. Assuming you're not soloing, they'll usually be at least one other teamate by you that can essentially double that damage. Situational, but extremely damaging when used right.

 

Quite. I have a 3 second rule. If it isn't dead within three seconds, then you're killing too slow and something's wrong. Usually they're dead even before that. Maybe you got trolled by a dragon. Maybe the red archer fog of friendly fire doom occurred. Most likely your build/gear setup is poorly optimized or insufficient. However something is definitely wrong if you're not killing an enemy faster than 3 seconds. Enemies should be dead within 1-2 ability casts hence the 3 second rule of thumb. Twin Fangs / Deathblow , Wrath of Heaven / Spell Purge, Rampage / Dragon Rage are classic examples. After the 2 second mark, enemies become incredibly more dangerous, as they can react by then and counter your attacks and/or troll you.

 

SC does not kill fast on its own. Fadecloak even kills faster, but is insufficient for nightmare alone.

 

To judge the strongest kits, I have to assume solo'ing for judging individual kits, and / or solo-conditions because of the need for spawn camping where you defend a spot solo, or weaker teams, or pugs who die.

 

I don't need to bring the strongest kit, but it has to be able to solo for me to consider it the strongest.
 

Keepers cannot clear fast on their own, and are squishier than they need to be despite their fantastic CC. They are a force multiplier, but not a strong force alone. Thus they're mid tier instead of 'strongest' since they have a harder time solo'ing.

[Yallegro]

Yes, you do have a lot of builds. Writing a detailed analysis of why it's not my cup of tea for each one of them will take me hours. Sorry but that's how it is, I make complete sentences with paragraphs and all, I don't write that "texting" language where every combination of 3 letters can replace any word in the dictionary...
 

I really don't troll often, but when I do it's obvious. This ain't trolling in case you weren't able to tell the difference.
 

On that we agree, people are pretty bad with those characters.
 

I do know that, but in my experience it simply didn't work well.

I just played a game with a friend that told me the Avvar is much better defensively than the Templar and almost as good as the Lego. He's pretty much around my position on the leaderboard, a lot of promotions and play very well. First wave he died. Second wave he died twice and had to rejoin. Third wave he died once. Fourth wave he died 4 times, had to rejoin in-between. But that %Damage Resistance! I mean, you can get almost 100%! I swear it's godly!

While that happened, I didn't die once as a Templar and I soloed half wave 4 while the 3 others rejoined...

 

So yes, I do know that %Damage Resistance pretty well. I've seen it in action and most importantly, I've tried it myself multiple times. It doesn't work well, it simply doesn't. Being able to only die once a wave isn't what I call good... The only players I've seen being able to do well with him have about 200 promotions on each stats. Those around 110 promotions on each stats, like myself, don't do especially great with it, I've only seen 2 people being able to survive well, but then their damage is bad so why bother? There must be someone somewhere with low promotions that can use him well, I've never seen it, but I'm sure it exists... somewhere...

 

Oh no you're not getting off that easily

 

Give me ONE, the worst build I have and tell me why it is bad (the build not the class)

 

(not the duelist, still working on improving that one)

 

I have nothing to do with your friend stating that the avvar has the defenses of the templar or the lego, because he doesn't.

What I have a problem with is that you state that his defenses are worse than that of the squishiest rogues.

I don't care how many times you and your friend have died, that simply isn't true.

 

Here are some vids. My con is around 110, my cunning way lower at 90 or so, willpower is high at 180 or so

 

Don't tell me he's not good

 

Avvar

 

Spoiler 

Ice Giant 

 

Son of Korth Part 1 

Son of Korth Part 2 https://youtu.be/7Cl0DYKwhpo

[Yallegro]

Quite. I have a 3 second rule. If it isn't dead within three seconds, then you're killing too slow and something's wrong. Usually they're dead even before that. Maybe you got trolled by a dragon. Maybe the red archer fog of friendly fire doom occurred. Most likely your build/gear setup is poorly optimized or insufficient. However something is definitely wrong if you're not killing an enemy faster than 3 seconds. Enemies should be dead within 1-2 ability casts hence the 3 second rule of thumb. Twin Fangs / Deathblow , Wrath of Heaven / Spell Purge, Rampage / Dragon Rage are classic examples. After the 2 second mark, enemies become incredibly more dangerous, as they can react by then and counter your attacks and/or troll you.

 

SC does not kill fast on its own. Fadecloak even kills faster, but is insufficient for nightmare alone.

 

To judge the strongest kits, I have to assume solo'ing for judging individual kits, and / or solo-conditions because of the need for spawn camping where you defend a spot solo, or weaker teams, or pugs who die.

 

I don't need to bring the strongest kit, but it has to be able to solo for me to consider it the strongest.
 

Keepers cannot clear fast on their own, and are squishier than they need to be despite their fantastic CC. They are a force multiplier, but not a strong force alone. Thus they're mid tier instead of 'strongest' since they have a harder time solo'ing.

 

Make a co-op game

 

characters get rated on how well they solo

 

[Proto]

Drasca, no point arguing whether the Keeper is a good class for NM. Quite obvious its fantastic when you have enough DPS around you. Not so great if you don't. 

 

Simple as that. 

 

Keeper is in the "great" tier for me. HB viable forsure.

 

P.S. I'll take the crickets from Yallegro about L&S as a victory. Didn't even have to Thunderdome. Threatening...c'mooon.

[Drasca]

Drasca, no point arguing whether the Keeper is a good class for NM. Quite obvious its fantastic when you have enough DPS around you. Not so great if you don't. 

 

Simple as that. 

 

Keeper is in the "great" tier for me. HB viable forsure.

 

P.S. I'll take the crickets from Yallegro about L&S as a victory. Didn't even have to Thunderdome. Threatening...c'mooon.

 

 

LOL Proto, the question framed the answer. It asked for 'strongest' and 'weakest' not in between. I like the keeper, but it is not the 'strongest' since it cannot solo. Anyone that that argues solo isn't important is in denial or is being carried all the time, because pugs will die more often than not (just look at all the L2P / your last pug threads) and private teams can do whatever they like.

 

Its not that I wouldn't want a keeper around or keepers (or legos or other team based build kits) aren't nice to have, its that the question demands a certain answer and I must answer accordingly.

 

As I said, team builds don't apply to this question, and keeper falls under the team build category (same with lego). Some people have trouble understanding this.