49 réponses à ce sujet

[Wavebend]

Bioware does change things

 

...?

[Pork]

Bioware does change things when gamers complain about something. 

 

[Sulaco_7]

There is nothing to be done for DAMP.  It is already at end-game.  But looking forward to other Bioware multiplayer games, I'd like to see these tweaks:

 

- The promotion system is good.  It encourages grind / addiction (just look at those players with 3000+ hours as an example).  If me3 had a promotion system, I think more people would still be grinding away at it.

 

- The promotion system needs soft caps.  You shouldn't be able to level up health / damage to infinity - this creates huge problems when balancing the game.  It also creates divisiveness in the player base.  Other players drop off because of the perception that all the game is about is promotions.

 

- Make the promotions less prominent and gear / kit more prominent.  Gear + kit should be giving most of your damage, health, and resistances.. like a 80% / 20% split.

 

(btw, I have about 320 promotions now, so I do actually enjoy grinding at that promotion system.. but I can also see it's negatives).

[Kissraven]

I don't think the promotion system at it's core is that bad. With changes to armor and additional difficulties I think more enemies in threatening and Perilous should be considered to help bridge the xp gap between these difficulties and NM. I also agree with Sulaco that there should have been a cap to promotions and not infinite Con and WP, but overall this does not bother me that much as people who want to grind for Prestige can do this if they want. In ME3 a lot of us just got BotB complete and stopped promoting unless we just wanted to respec without using a card.

 

I appreciate wanting to make the game better, and hopefully threads like this will help with other BioWare games, but it is getting pretty obvious that the life of DAMP is no longer than when ME3 comes out, and probably this November/December for most. If there is anything that needs to be improved at this time, it would be more maps and more characters. Still multiplayer has been a solid aspect of DA for a first run at it.

[Wavebend]

Here's another idea:

 

This game should've been stats-less. The only stats gains are the core bonuses from the characters adding to the starting 10/10/10.

 

Instead, make everything revolve around materials and crafting. Better weapons do not drop from chests and have to be crafted. Unique items as well. The quality of the crafted item is now based on the quality of your materials and the amount you have. Endgame weapons would require an insane amount of t4 material farming.

 

Store chests now award materials.

 

Promoting doesn't grant stats anymore. As a trainer, you train your character to be prepared to serve the inquisition. When your trainee reaches level 20, you have the choice to let your him follow the inquisition and you get materials as a reward.

 

I have no idea why I wrote that.

[Pork]

Promoting doesn't grant stats anymore. As a trainer, you train your character to be prepared to serve the inquisition. When your trainee reaches level 20, you have the choice to let your him follow the inquisition and you get materials as a reward.

 

I have no idea why I wrote that.

 

Better idea, when you reach level 20, you have to buy platinum to promote. Then when you promote you get banned from the servers and you no longer receive any patch support. 

[Deadarth]

Better idea, when you reach level 20, you have to buy platinum to promote. Then when you promote you get banned from the servers and you no longer receive any patch support. 

Or the just make sure the game crash to desktop with no error message most games and make it absolutely tedious and unenjoyable.

[ParthianShotX]

There is nothing to be done for DAMP.  It is already at end-game.  But looking forward to other Bioware multiplayer games, I'd like to see these tweaks:

 

- The promotion system is good.  It encourages grind / addiction (just look at those players with 3000+ hours as an example).  If me3 had a promotion system, I think more people would still be grinding away at it.

 

Probably right about that.  Miss my jiggly bum bum.  Was fun and I keep meaning to fire it up again.  If I were being rewarded, I'd not be resisting I suppose.

[MagicalMaster]

1. Promotions are not luxury, but fundamental for playing higher difficulties. You cannot tell me, that someone with (10/10/10) would survive in NM, not even in Perilous.

 

I did Perilous with like...maybe six promotions total?  Probably like 13/11/12 overall or something.  Can easily survive in Perilous with no promotions.  Nightmare is a bit trickier -- you could do it with no promotions with actual teamwork but it does mean needing top of the line gear and good group composition/play.  Your Archers are going to need Barriers, for example.  You'll need to work and move together, not Arcane Warrior solo the moon type stuff.  But I did my first Nightmares with under 20 in each stat and even now I'm only in the mid 20s for each stat.  Having like 10-15% more character power from those promotions does not change the situation from "Cannot possibly survive" to "Easy to survive."

[Wavebend]

I did Perilous with like...maybe six promotions total?  Probably like 13/11/12 overall or something.  Can easily survive in Perilous with no promotions.  Nightmare is a bit trickier -- you could do it with no promotions with actual teamwork but it does mean needing top of the line gear and good group composition/play.  Your Archers are going to need Barriers, for example.  You'll need to work and move together, not Arcane Warrior solo the moon type stuff.  But I did my first Nightmares with under 20 in each stat and even now I'm only in the mid 20s for each stat.  Having like 10-15% more character power from those promotions does not change the situation from "Cannot possibly survive" to "Easy to survive."

 

NM could be completed with a team of four 10/10/10. But for speedrunning or pugging with random people (expect to carry the team) you do need a lot of promotions. Preferably 100+/100+/100+

[DrakeHasNoFlow]

Promotions help in making runs more efficient as your stats in constitution/will power/cunning increase so does your overall survival and dmg output which translates into faster runs at higher difficulties. Nobody is saying you can't clear nightmare with low promotions, but the overall time it takes would be quite slower compared to someone with much higher stats. This is assuming best gear/accessories are equipped.

[SpaceV3gan]

 

• The promotion should be given each time, when the gamer finished the operation successfully. Nicer would be as follows:
  • 1 Promotion Point for routine
  • 2 Promotion Points for Threatening
  • 3 Promotion Points for Perilous
  • 4 Promotion Points for Nightmare
  • 5 Promotion Points for Heart Breaker

For 10 months People have earned most of their promotions by a ratio of something like 8 Perilous games per promotion. Changing to 1 Routine game per promotion is wrong at all levels I can think of.

Besides that, 5 Routine games are nowhere equivalent to 1 Heartbreaker in terms of effort and commitment to award the same amount of promotions. The gap is so monstrous that I don't think any practical number of Routine games can be comparable to 1 Heartbreaker game.

[Gya]

You were still carried, gear would minimal requirement.

Can confirm that Crituos does not get carried in NM.

[Caldyrvan]

I know many player do not see it that way but if a group with low stats, plays well and it takes long but having fun. What does it matter? Sure I do not want to get stuck in a game of several hours but besides that i am playing to have fun (yea everybody has another opinion of what "fun" is) not to say "im the big man I run through nightmare like through a wet tissue paper and got my 4th hakkon weapon

[Johnsen1972]

The promotion system is the biggest design flaw in the whole game. Its probaby one of the main reasons why not many people play this game.

 

Any suggestion would improve it. But I fear the DAIMP Team doesnt care anymore. They are not going to change anything to the system.

 

If ME Andromeda has the same promotion system Im not going to play it.

 

DAIMP is the only multiplayer game where you have to constantly reset to level 1 in order to progress.

 

Anyway I rarely play DAMP anymore. Waiting for Fallout IV.

[Silversmurf]

Probably the low promoted players that want the promotions to be attainable faster.

Go figure.

[Underpromoted]

 

1. Promotions are not luxury, but fundamental for playing higher difficulties. You cannot tell me, that someone with (10/10/10) would survive in NM, not even in Perilous.
2. It is never too late to do things different or right. Think how many changes have been made to the game, since it is started.
3. Think of gamers who just started and gamers who don't have the ability to play 8-10 hours daily.
4. Have any calculated how many hours do you need to get one promotion on difficulty such as routine or threatening?

 

However as I wrote before it is just "suggestion".

 

 

1. I'm 15/15/25 and have killed maybe 20 nightmare dragons at this point. I'll agree that at low promotions you'll be carried in most NM games. I'd put myself in the mid skill range and for the kits I play I have the unique armor and usually one of the BiS weapons, but there's just no way to keep up with someone who doubles my hp, takes a fraction of my damage in the same gear, and has a 100% crit chance all based on stats. However if you're talking about completion I think a skilled group of low promotion kits could pick classes that synergize well and clear NM without too much trouble as long as they played carefully.

 

2. I think any changes to the promotion system would alienate anyone who's been working at climbing that ladder for any length of time. If I spent hundreds of hours playing and slowly turning my tissuepaper into hardened steel I'd be pissed if they handed it out to everyone for a fraction of the effort and time commitment.

 

3. Maxing your promotions is the last thing to do in this game. After a point it's just bragging rights. I dont think the endgame should be designed based around allowing people to play at that level within a week. The people who have insane kits and can solo NM while we cry earned that **** through playing. A lot. You also cant get 450+ promotions across your classes without picking up the mechanics and strategies of the game. This is the same line of thinking that turned WoW from an MMO powerhouse into a wellfare state crapfest. The gamers insterested in endgame progression and striving to defeat chellenging bosses and getting rewarded appropriately were drowned out by the bleating 12 year olds who just wanted to throw down their $$ and be just as good as the endgame raider. Go cry to Obama if you want more wellfare.

 

4. I'm sure there's some numbers out there that someone has tested, I dont have 'em. This is going to change drastically based on group comp/skill but I generally find its best to play on the hardest difficulty you can clear quickly and safely. I play NM with skilled friends, perilous with bad friends, and threatening when I've smoked too many bowls to not be embarrassed by my play.

 

Promotions seem daunting but if you just play the game they add up quick. Apparently there are also x2 xp weekends sometimes, missed those myself but here's hoping.

[dryz]

The promotion system is the biggest design flaw in the whole game. Its probaby one of the main reasons why not many people play this game.

Any suggestion would improve it. But I fear the DAIMP Team doesnt care anymore. They are not going to change anything to the system.

If ME Andromeda has the same promotion system Im not going to play it.

DAIMP is the only multiplayer game where you have to constantly reset to level 1 in order to progress.

Anyway I rarely play DAMP anymore. Waiting for Fallout IV.

If ME3 had a similar promotion design people would still be playing it. By linking the players play time to achievable difficulty settings and rewards you have a system for infinite replayabilty. ME3's combat readiness have you no reason to promote unless you planned on a sp play through. With scaling stats all the developer has to do is add a new faction or map and harder difficulty every 6 months and you can give the player base something to work towards. RNG is RNG, but ME3's system of upgrading it each time you got a duplicate was also ingenious, without adding any meaningful gear you've stopped players from complaining about duplicates and multiplied the desired loot table by 10.

[TheThirdRace]

If ME3 had a similar promotion design people would still be playing it. By linking the players play time to achievable difficulty settings and rewards you have a system for infinite replayabilty. ME3's combat readiness have you no reason to promote unless you planned on a sp play through. With scaling stats all the developer has to do is add a new faction or map and harder difficulty every 6 months and you can give the player base something to work towards. RNG is RNG, but ME3's system of upgrading it each time you got a duplicate was also ingenious, without adding any meaningful gear you've stopped players from complaining about duplicates and multiplied the desired loot table by 10.

The challenges being repeatable also made it a haven for grinding. Fun grinding at least, you weren't forced to play what you didn't want to. I completed 64 times the Biotic God banners, I loved it every second. I didn't do that much on the other banners, but at least it gave me a chance to have some "prestige" without boring me to death with Soldiers...

[Caldyrvan]

It´s not that alone, besides NM & HB stuff for which you need to promote (or you should better) there are no challanges, I mean something that gives credit to the word itself Most challanges are just stuff you do by just playing nothing special (hard) to do

[Medallian]

what eve you all suggest I am betting will never happen...... but its nice to have hopes and dreams.....

 

no one wants to put in  the work to get major stats all they want is short cuts, if they change it to make promoting faster, which is basically what every suggestion is at its core... then it would be a slap in the face to ll those who spent countless hours grinding.... the game is meant o be long, stay in your lane, if perilous is were your at be the best in it, stop crying about I cant do NM or HB... its end game content you have to put in the time and effort to be able to do it , there are no short cuts.... 

[MagicalMaster]

NM could be completed with a team of four 10/10/10. But for speedrunning or pugging with random people (expect to carry the team) you do need a lot of promotions. Preferably 100+/100+/100+

 

Lemme do some rough math stuff here...

 

Let's see, 450 more HP will be a minimum of 26% more life (assuming 1700 health without Constitution promotions which is already extremely high for high health kits and impossible for lower health kits).  45% resistance to each type of damage is actually usually *more* than a 50% reduction but let's just go with that to be generous.  1.28 * 1.5 = 89% more effective life than a 10/10/10.

 

45% more attack, well, let's call it 22.5% more effective damage (less for some kits, more for others -- remember that Attack % = Damage % in the damage formula) and 45% more crit, well, we'll call it 36% more effective damage (this is assuming no Hakkon weapons and sort of "averaging" classes -- some classes will have 40% crit damage bonus but receive bonuses from crits, others will have more than 40% crit damage bonus)...that's about 66% more damage dealt.

 

Of course, both of those numbers are low estimates but we're trying to be conservative with our figures here.

So 1.89 * 1.66 = 3.13 times stronger than a 10/10/10 character.

 

Yeah, being three times as strong (or much stronger, actually) as a 10/10/10 character would help with carrying a team or speedrunning.

 

I know many player do not see it that way but if a group with low stats, plays well and it takes long but having fun. What does it matter? Sure I do not want to get stuck in a game of several hours but besides that i am playing to have fun (yea everybody has another opinion of what "fun" is) not to say "im the big man I run through nightmare like through a wet tissue paper and got my 4th hakkon weapon

 

I generally agree.  I'm running Nightmare to get Hakkon weapons to make promotions faster/easier...not grinding promotions to make getting Hakkon weapons faster/easier.

 

The promotion system is the biggest design flaw in the whole game. Its probaby one of the main reasons why not many people play this game.

 

DAIMP is the only multiplayer game where you have to constantly reset to level 1 in order to progress.

 

I don't think the general *idea* is the biggest design flaw, but I do think the implementation is one of the biggest design flaws, yes.  I actually like the resetting to 1 aspect because it mixes things up and you have to play the character differently at different levels.  I'd rather level a character 10 times to 20 rather that it taking 10 times as long to hit 20 in the first place.

 

Probably the low promoted players that want the promotions to be attainable faster.

Go figure.

 

As a person who's still fairly low on promotions (28/22/28), I find it hard to blame them when you see people saying 10/10/10 players can't do Perilous or people wanting 50+/50+/50+ players for Nightmare.  Especially since promotions get exponentially better which is 100% opposite to how it should be (the way constitution health and willpower attack works is good, for example -- you always get the same exact bonus each time you promote, it just means slightly less if your stats are already super high.  But the physical resistance, magic resistance, ranged resistance, and crit chance give *increasing* returns (until you hit the caps)).  It is extremely frustrating to be a significantly better player than someone else but be significantly outperformed solely due to their promotions.

 

I don't begrudge people Hakkon weapons -- at a minimum they had to actually do a Nightmare dragon once (and, of course, most people will have to do them a ton of times for more than one weapon).  But promotions?  Someone who's never stepped beyond Routine or Threatening could have substantially better stats than me due to playing a long time and store chests only caring about gold.  It's just a pure grind.  And that grind's effect has leaked into how long term people view the game (see the examples I gave of saying 10/10/10 players can't do Perilous or wanting 50+/50+/50+ for Nightmare) -- which is the real problem.  And it's very alienating to new players.

 

This is the same line of thinking that turned WoW from an MMO powerhouse into a wellfare state crapfest. The gamers insterested in endgame progression and striving to defeat chellenging bosses and getting rewarded appropriately were drowned out by the bleating 12 year olds who just wanted to throw down their $$ and be just as good as the endgame raider. Go cry to Obama if you want more wellfare.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

 

Oh, wait, you were serious?

 

 

I'm the raid/guild leader of a two night Mythic guild racing for the top two night guild position in the United States.  Right now, even only being 9/13 bosses into the tier on Mythic, I'm at 719 ilvl.  Those "welfare people" you mentioned?  They're at about 680ish in their "end-game" gear.  Which means I'm "only" about 75% stronger due to gear (exponential, each ilvl is about a 1.45% increase).  But I'll wind up at about 731 ilvl...and compared to the "welfare" people it's really more like 740 ilvl due to unique trinkets, set bonuses, and the like.  So, y'know, just 2.37 times as powerful from gear.  Clearly I'm just not getting enough reward (oh, and this isn't even factoring in things like unique mounts, titles, etc).

 

If you want to talk smack (Bioware filters the word I want to use) about something then find another target -- because clearly you know jack about WoW.

 

Oh, and your whole "striving to defeat chellenging [sic] bosses and getting rewarded appropriately" line?  That doesn't exist in DAMP -- at least not in regards to promotions which is the subject under discussion.  There's nothing challenging about grinding XP -- you can do it on Routine.

 

its end game content you have to put in the time and effort to be able to do it , there are no short cuts.... 

 

Emphasis mine.  Because that's simply not true.  You need to put in *time* to earn promotions, could do them on Routine if you wanted.  And since we're talking about promotions..."effort" just translates into time...and you already said time.

 

If promotions were only achieved by completing Perilous six times or Nightmare/Heartbreaker once then you might have a point of sorts -- as you have to do more challenging content in the first place to earn the promotions and being able to handle Nightmare rather than Perilous would drastically speed up promotions (and thus reward the additional effort).

[Spin-Orbit]

Lemme do some rough math stuff here...

 

 

Yeah, being three times as strong (or much stronger, actually) as a 10/10/10 character would help with carrying a team or speedrunning.

 

As a person who's still fairly low on promotions (28/22/28), I find it hard to blame them when you see people saying 10/10/10 players can't do Perilous or people wanting 50+/50+/50+ players for Nightmare.  Especially since promotions get exponentially better which is 100% opposite to how it should be (the way constitution health and willpower attack works is good, for example -- you always get the same exact bonus each time you promote, it just means slightly less if your stats are already super high.  But the physical resistance, magic resistance, ranged resistance, and crit chance give *increasing* returns (until you hit the caps)).  It is extremely frustrating to be a significantly better player than someone else but be significantly outperformed solely due to their promotions.

 

I don't begrudge people Hakkon weapons -- at a minimum they had to actually do a Nightmare dragon once (and, of course, most people will have to do them a ton of times for more than one weapon).  But promotions?  Someone who's never stepped beyond Routine or Threatening could have substantially better stats than me due to playing a long time and store chests only caring about gold.  It's just a pure grind.  And that grind's effect has leaked into how long term people view the game (see the examples I gave of saying 10/10/10 players can't do Perilous or wanting 50+/50+/50+ for Nightmare) -- which is the real problem.  And it's very alienating to new players.

 

 

I'm the raid/guild leader of a two night Mythic guild racing for the top two night guild position in the United States.  Right now, even only being 9/13 bosses into the tier on Mythic, I'm at 719 ilvl.  Those "welfare people" you mentioned?  They're at about 680ish in their "end-game" gear.  Which means I'm "only" about 75% stronger due to gear (exponential, each ilvl is about a 1.45% increase).  But I'll wind up at about 731 ilvl...and compared to the "welfare" people it's really more like 740 ilvl due to unique trinkets, set bonuses, and the like.  So, y'know, just 2.37 times as powerful from gear.  Clearly I'm just not getting enough reward (oh, and this isn't even factoring in things like unique mounts, titles, etc).

 

 

Emphasis mine.  Because that's simply not true.  You need to put in *time* to earn promotions, could do them on Routine if you wanted.  And since we're talking about promotions..."effort" just translates into time...and you already said time.

 

 

 

In one hand you say as a new player it is frustrating and you don't want to put the time in, on the other hand you say your level 719 in WoW. How long did it take you to reach level 719?

 

If your complaining about people promoting through routine, have you done routine only promotion and see how long it takes? You wouldn't be complaining about that, it takes way too long. Then those player would migrate to threatening start at routine for couple runs, go to threatening. After that etc. That is the way it is designed. If your stats were 300/300/200 would you be complaining about the same thing?

[MagicalMaster]

In one hand you say as a new player it is frustrating and you don't want to put the time in, on the other hand you say your level 719 in WoW. How long did it take you to reach level 719?

 

You'll have to clarify the question.  What's the start date we're looking at here?  If you're not familiar with WoW I can give you some possibilities, but my answer would be 10 weeks of two nights of raiding at 4.5 hours per night -- so 90 hours (which is when the current raid was released and when we could start getting new and better gear -- before that point everyone was "stuck" at a lower ilvl until the next patch).  Also note that most of those 90 hours (60+ hours) involved doing nothing but dying over and over again to bosses while learning them.

 

Also, define "put the time in."  According to Origin I've put 225 hours into the game, though I know that's inflated due to AFKing or whatever while the game is running.  But even cutting out 33% is still 150 hours and I'm at 29/23/28.

 

If your complaining about people promoting through routine, have you done routine only promotion and see how long it takes? You wouldn't be complaining about that, it takes way too long. Then those player would migrate to threatening start at routine for couple runs, go to threatening. After that etc. That is the way it is designed. If your stats were 300/300/200 would you be complaining about the same thing?

 

Yes, the first time I leveled to 20 was all routine with some friends who were scared of trying Threatening.  Yes, it look a long time.  But what you're saying is still supporting my point -- people can promote and obtain high stats without ever doing content that is actually difficult for them.

 

And yes, if my stats were 300/300/200 I'd still be complaining because I work on designing games as a hobby (mostly NWN), spend time on the New Player forums for WoW to try to help beginning players, and I can recognize that the current promotion system is alienating/problematic for new players in DAMP.  And a large part of that is veteran players having no memory of what its like to start out at this point -- having 100+ in all stats gives you a very skewed idea of the game.

[Spin-Orbit]

 

And yes, if my stats were 300/300/200 I'd still be complaining because I work on designing games as a hobby (mostly NWN), spend time on the New Player forums for WoW to try to help beginning players, and I can recognize that the current promotion system is alienating/problematic for new players in DAMP.  And a large part of that is veteran players having no memory of what its like to start out at this point -- having 100+ in all stats gives you a very skewed idea of the game.

 

Perhaps you should go and design your own game. The designers of DAMP flat out stated that the promotion system will remain as they are so you can either respect that and move on or disrespect them and tell them what they should do.