144 réponses à ce sujet

[Emerald]

This is not a thread about the morality of the mage templar war, nor is this me debating which too do. i have a hard time siding with the templars over the mages purely for the quest alone. Not because I like it more, but because of what is going on in each. 

templars: We need to save a historic order of knights that have been in the service of the church for hundreds of years!

 

me: ok that sounds like a good idea.

 

Mages: THERE IS A SORCERER HEAR LITERALLY TEARING TIME APART

 

me: :l

 

what bothers me most is even after you side with the templars, Alexius is not even mentioned afterward, let alone stopped. Dorian just remarks with something like "sure wish we coulda done somthing about that *glare*"

 

[Ashaantha]

Templars: we're drinking red lyrium, and have a demon in charge of our order right now!

mages: we're throwing the fabric of time into the privy!

[Emerald]

Templars: we're drinking red lyrium, and have a demon in charge of our order right now!

mages: we're throwing the fabric of time into the privy!

yes exactly, and while demons being in charge and drinking red lyrium is very bad and should be stopped, at least it is contained in the present and can be dealt with straight forwardly. With weapons.  Tearing the fabrics of space and time? Not as easy to deal with. enemies can be sent back and forth through time, can send assassins into the past, you know terminator stuff. 

[Merengues 1945]

After playing both I just sighed yet again at seeing that everyone just threw their wits into the can... Templars see their leaders go mad and force them to consume the same crap that turned Cmd Meredith crazy. And mages instead of keeping level head and play the pity card just go bananas and throw themselves into servitude of tevinter (what kind of Fereldan or Orlesian does that?)

I understand the templar position as they take hard choices to keep the populace safe... But the mages (notoriously for being educated in comparison to the common folk) taking that path is so ridiculous I know let them to their devices as they plainly asked for it.

I go for Champions of the Just because at least there are less stupid on their side... Also you can simply avoid confrontation with Calpernia instead of losing 3 valuable minutes butchering Samson.

[Korva]

Wasn't it implied that Corpyheus gets rid of Alexius if you don't walk into that trap? With Felix dead and the Breach sealed, Alexius lost both his usefulness and his reason to serve.

 

Anyway, between the more urgent premise and the fact that we get to learn more about the mage-plot before making the choice but not about what is going on with the templars, it did feel as if the game tried to push me to do In Hushed Whispers. My plan was to go to the templars, though, and I stuck with that partly out of stubborn annoyance at feeling pushed the other way, and partly because I reasoned that it would be a lot smarter to not walk blithely into such an obvious trap without any backup. At this point, the only anti-magic superweapon that the Inquisition has is Cassandra ... and the game ignores that completely. With the support of the templars, we would have been a lot better equipped to deal with Alexius.

[Nixou]

I see Champions of the Just as another closed-fist-like shoddy implementation of a moral dilemma, given the context of the game, choosing to go meet the Templars instead of the Mages is plainly stupid:

The problem lies not so much in the stakes (the PC doesn't know about time travel until after s/he's arrived in Redclife and locked out the Templars story-branch) but in the timing and geography of the quests:

 

After your first visit in post-stamp-sized-city Val Royaux, you're given the choice between:

 

• Contacting Mages who happen to be located in Redclife, on your doorstep
• Spending time and resources locating Templars gone AWOL

 

See the problem? A smart Herald, even one who's more sympathetic to Templars than to mage is going to focus first on the problem closest to home.

 

Making these two quests mutually exclusive was a major blunder: they should have been placed in a linear fashion, with the conclusion of the Mages arc deciding the tone of of Templars arc:

• Have a discussion on the war table, when it is decided that Leliana's agents will try locating the Templars while the Herald deals with the more immediate problem with the Mages in Redclife
• If the Herald allies with the Mages, the Templars are hostile when contact is established, join en masse Samson who becomes Cory's right-hand-man.
• If the Herald conscript the Mages, the Templars are more amenable to the Inquisition when contact is established, and it's Calpernia who becomes Cory's right-hand-mage.

[Knight of Dane]

Yes it is clearly states that Alexius died. Doesn't Dorian mention that when he arrives at Haven or something? I remember him at least saying "Anyway, he is dead now" when asked about him in Skyhold afterwards.

[Jester]

The impression that you are pushed to go with mage path, is the fact that you know beforehand, that Alexius is incredibly dangerous and has time magic.

Before going to the Templars, you have no idea about Red Lyrium or Envy. Just that Lord Seeker is acting a little weird. 

 

So it becomes a choice between:

1. Deal with a huge crisis at hand, which is risky because you walk right into a trap.

2. Ignore all that and get Templar support with the help of some noble delegation, which sounds way risky, but doesn't solve the issue of time magic.

 

With all this pushing for Inquisition to save the world, getting rid of Alexius seems natural. 

 

The problem lies not so much in the stakes (the PC doesn't know about time travel until after s/he's arrived in Redclife and locked out the Templars story-branch) but in the timing and geography of the quests:

 

Doesn't work like that. After you visit Redcliffe, meet with Fiona, Alexius and Dorian you can still go the Templar path.

You are locked out of it only after actually accepting the mission at War Table.

 

You can even go the Templar path, once your advisors tell you you're going into a trap.

 

Which of course only strenghtens your point.

[Al Foley]

Really though wouldn't the situation imply a certain amount of general creepyness.  Time magic?  Tevinter Mages?  An unknown situation?  My Inquisitor noped right out of there and was like 'I don't like te Templars but at least nothing weird is going on there.'  Little did she know...

 

Been in general we know that the Templars are well...pretty straightforward.  We know a lot of other weird stuff is going on at the other camp.  

[KCMeredith]

Saw a Tevinter Magister running the place, turned around to get the templars to kill the mages in Redcliffe. All worked out in the end though

 

Left Redcliffe with that look though

 

Spoiler

[adorkable-panda]

I still haven't been able to bring myself to do the templar quest becuase I always end up signing up for the Mages. I'm such mage trash. I have watched the entire templar storyline on youtube and watched the whole Calpernia arc and honestly, there are a lot of things about that line that I like more. For one. Cole gets a cooler intro instead of just poofing in out of nowhere. For two, Calpernia is a cooler nemesis as opposed to Samson plus you can avoid her fight altogether For three, the Envy demon looked ****** cool and the whole Fade sequence seemed so much cooler than the time travel involved in the other.  For four, Barris was hot (okay enough objectifying from me) and you could've made him the super leader of the templar order (which honestly was very beautiful even from me who was simply watching it and not playing it)

 

Maybe when I RP a character who just doens't give a **** about mages I'll roll the templar line. There seemed to be more detail and effort put into that quest. 

 

Overall however, I think the main problem about the templar quest not being favorable to me is because when you arrive at Val Royeaux the templars are complete assholes while Fiona genuinely wanted to meet with you peacefully. Why on earth would I want to go meet up with templars who were rude upon meeting. On that note, I don't ever feel comfortable with the idea of killing Fiona if I side with the templars becuase that's Alistair's mama and Alistair is my babe. 

 

Both have their pros and cons but I wish Bioware would've implemented something where you could meet up with the templars, meet their ranks and not commit just yet like you could do with the mages. It would've made the decision more less biased rather than the obvious, let's go take down the time manipulator right in front of us. 

[Darkly Tranquil]

Mages definitely feel like the more natural path for the storyline, even though the Templars is a somewhat better quest/sequence. While I don't mind mutually exclusive storylines, I don't feel like the choice was all that well presented in Inquisition.

[Dai Grepher]

For me it's the opposite. The templars path is too hard to ignore, and the mages path is a no-brainer pass.

 

With the mages, you learn that A. Time magic is involved. B. It's a trap. C. Ferelden's Crown is on its way to Redcliffe to solve the problem. D. The mages are perfectly free to abandon Fiona and join you RIGHT NOW. There's literally no reason for you to do anything in Redcliffe Castle. And there are many other reasons why the mages arc is bad, as in poor writing, other implications, gameplay reasons, etc.

 

With the templars, you first see Lucius and his group assault a chantry mother, then mock you in pubic. Then you run into "Fiona", who can say that she suspects Lucius of being involved in the Divine's death, and gives a pretty good reason for believing so. Which means you have a good reason to investigate Lucius. You are under no obligation to meet with Fiona in Redcliffe despite the invitation. Logically, if you recruit the templars, then the mages have nothing to fear. So the situation already favors the templars path.

 

Everything you see in Redcliffe Village is just more a deterrent, in my opinion. Fiona's stupid deal, information of a trap, time magic (which you don't know how to combat), having to trust a Tevinter mage in order to have any chance of countering Alexius' trap, risking the ire of Ferelden for involving yourself in their affairs, etc. And for what? To ally with rebels?

 

With the templars you stand to gain the respect of the Orlesian nobility, the respect of the people, the respect of the Chantry, and powerful allies who specialize in combating hostile magic. This is another reason to ally with templars. If you ally with mages, there is nothing to stop hostile templars from attacking the mages and now the Inquisition as well, because their grievances were never addressed. But if you ally with the templars, then the mages have no reason to attack them or you. And even if they were to try they would be annihilated because they're weak against templars and they were losing the war already.

 

As for time magic and traps, I say let Ferelden's monarch(s) deal with that crap. Why risk the one person who can seal the breach? And theoretically, if time magic exists and has been used already, then technically there is nothing you can do about it, because it's already happened. Think about it, if Alexius controls time, then he has already gone back in time to do whatever he could, and now there is no way to prevent what's already happened. Plus, if Alexius is setting a trap, the best idea is to avoid the trap. And if he is planning on using time magic when you arrive in Redcliffe Castle, then the best idea is to not go to Redcliffe Castle. If he is to use time magic, let him waste it on Fereldan soldiers.

[Dabrikishaw]

Both are valid paths to take, regardless of what biases and headcanon you use to justify your decision.

[Lazarillo]

Part of the reason I lean towards doing Templars is that, to my recollection, there's nothing in the game's story itself that suggests the missions are mutually exclusive.  It's stated in the briefings for the player's benefit, but as far as Quizzie and the rest know, both sides are holed up.  The Mages you know to be setting an ambush, the Templars you know nothing...but presumably if the Mages want their ambush to work, they'll keep on waiting, and in the meantime, you can get a few Templars to help you deal with dem uppity Tevinters (who, as it's established on the War Table later, aren't exactly equipped to deal with real Templars).

[thesuperdarkone2]

Part of the reason I lean towards doing Templars is that, to my recollection, there's nothing in the game's story itself that suggests the missions are mutually exclusive.  It's stated in the briefings for the player's benefit, but as far as Quizzie and the rest know, both sides are holed up.  The Mages you know to be setting an ambush, the Templars you know nothing...but presumably if the Mages want their ambush to work, they'll keep on waiting, and in the meantime, you can get a few Templars to help you deal with dem uppity Tevinters (who, as it's established on the War Table later, aren't exactly equipped to deal with real Templars).

Actually, yes your advisors straight up tell you that getting the templars means losing them mages. Choose "lets get the templars" during the IHW briefing and the Inquisitor suggests getting templars to help out the mages. Your advisors outright say that won't work since the Venator are preparing to go to war and will be attacking their target soon and by the time you get the templars, the mages and venatori will be long gone. 

 

Thus, you are straight up told that going to the templars means abandoning the mages. Yes, the game does tell you this and gives you an explanation why going to the templars means abandoning the mages. I swear, I must be the only person on this damn site that actually choose that dialogue option.

 

Not only that, but you know that the hostile foreign power is planning on attacking something soon, most likely you. Thus, it makes helping the mages even more important and gives even less reason to choose templars.

[Lazarillo]

Thus, you are straight up told that going to the templars means abandoning the mages. Yes, the game does tell you this and gives you an explanation why going to the templars means abandoning the mages. I swear, I must be the only person on this damn site that actually choose that dialogue option.

 

Not only that, but you know that the hostile foreign power is planning on attacking something soon, most likely you. Thus, it makes helping the mages even more important and gives even less reason to choose templars.

 

Fair enough, I must'a missed that bit, like you said.  But frankly, this indicates to me all the more reason to go after the Templars.  The Mages are planning to attack the Inquisition either way.  We can either walk into their trap, or they can come to us, but if there's Templars hanging out by the front door, I'd still say that's the better position to be in.

 

There's also the fact that, ultimately, the goal isn't to stop either side, but to get help dealing with the Breach, and the Templars seem the more worthy ally for that one, as well.  Lelianna suggests that the Mages could amplify the magic needed to do so, Cullen states Templars could weaken the magic holding it open in the first place...but frankly, despite Lelianna being the first to yell "speculation!", Cullen's really in the better position to know. 

 

So Templars still fit with the general strategery approach in both cases, IMO.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Fair enough, I must'a missed that bit, like you said. But frankly, this indicates to me all the more reason to go after the Templars. The Mages are planning to attack the Inquisition either way. We can either walk into their trap, or they can come to us, but if there's Templars hanging out by the front door, I'd still say that's the better position to be in.

There's also the fact that, ultimately, the goal isn't to stop either side, but to get help dealing with the Breach, and the Templars seem the more worthy ally for that one, as well. Lelianna suggests that the Mages could amplify the magic needed to do so, Cullen states Templars could weaken the magic holding it open in the first place...but frankly, despite Lelianna being the first to yell "speculation!", Cullen's really in the better position to know.

So Templars still fit with the general strategery approach in both cases, IMO.

And how do you know Templar abilities won't also affect the mark given that the dispel ability hasn't been known to be targetable. Also, look at where Redcliffe and Therinfal are. The Venatori are right and your doorstep and could destroy Haven while you are gone.

Also the Templar mission starts with you hoping not all Templars are douchebags like Lucius. Sorry, but hoping people help us seems less likely than assuredly getting help from the mages by freeing them from slavery. Also, you are abandoning children to slavery or worse if you side with the Templars. More and more evidence leans toward a neutral inquisitor helping the mages

[SwobyJ]

Time magic is generally more urgent to deal with.

 

But that's why the game presents you with and pushes the idea of going for the Templars first, before even reaching Redcliffe.

 

A very valid option, as you don't even see your first time-fade rift until about to enter Redcliffe.

 

"I need help now"

"Okay, there's the Templars, they suppress magic"

"No silly, there's also the Mages, we could go meet them, make your magic stronger"

"Or we could go for the Templars like initially suggested, and not bother with Redcliffe"

"Alright, Templars it is"

*picks Templars*

 

 

If you did go to Redcliffe, reasons smack you in the face to "Just don't do this, go for the Templars instead and leave this mess of a situation behind". The only things opposing that is narrative continuity (just leaving Redcliffe wouldn't normally happen in a story), and personal concern about time magic. Aside from these things, the mages made their own mess and won't do anything about it so why not go for the Templars and see what is even up with them? (as opposed to seeing what is up with the mages, then having the choice to stick with it or disregard it and leave)

 

 

BTW I go Mage path. But I have my own reasons:

1)I'm a mage who does care about the fate of mages more than templars in the end

2)I have personal fascination with whatever I can learn about time magic

3)I want Redcliffe safe, caring more for towns than fortresses

 

Time magic is an unknown. Its not a given that it destroys the fabric of reality - this is only speculation and theory. Believe it or not, there are people who don't care about dabbling into that sort of stuff, and prefer something that (at least initially) seems more reliable and true - help of Templars (which only up until very recently have rarely had rebellion or weirdness).

[Dai Grepher]

Part of the reason I lean towards doing Templars is that, to my recollection, there's nothing in the game's story itself that suggests the missions are mutually exclusive.  It's stated in the briefings for the player's benefit, but as far as Quizzie and the rest know, both sides are holed up.  The Mages you know to be setting an ambush, the Templars you know nothing...but presumably if the Mages want their ambush to work, they'll keep on waiting, and in the meantime, you can get a few Templars to help you deal with dem uppity Tevinters (who, as it's established on the War Table later, aren't exactly equipped to deal with real Templars).

 

I played it to where I go through the lead up to IHW, but then I cancel out of it and go after the templars. The dialogue choices I picked were to go after the templars, and from my best recollection all that is said is that going after the templars means you leave a hostile foreign power on your doorstep.

 

But, there is indeed a sense of exclusivity given in the following dialogue choice of contacting Arl Teagan. I think it's Josephine who confirms that Arl Teagan is riding to Denerim to get the crown involved. And in this case it is implied that there is indeed a time limit to going after the mages. So if you go to Therinfall, the crown is in Redcliffe evicting Alexius and Fiona. In fact, I would say that the Inquisition and its noble allies pass by the crown near Redcliffe on their way to Therinfall.

 

But I still agree with your reasoning of going after templars first. In my opinion, leashing the templars should send the signal to the mages that they have nothing to fear from the Inquisition or the templars.

 

But in fairness, based on location, I can also see how going after mages first fits the idea of getting both sides. Redcliffe is closer, and you would have to get them first before the Ferelden crown shows up to evict them. If you don't, then it's too late, and the mages go elsewhere.

[Dai Grepher]

Actually, yes your advisors straight up tell you that getting the templars means losing them mages. Choose "lets get the templars" during the IHW briefing and the Inquisitor suggests getting templars to help out the mages. Your advisors outright say that won't work since the Venator are preparing to go to war and will be attacking their target soon and by the time you get the templars, the mages and venatori will be long gone. 

 

Thus, you are straight up told that going to the templars means abandoning the mages. Yes, the game does tell you this and gives you an explanation why going to the templars means abandoning the mages. I swear, I must be the only person on this damn site that actually choose that dialogue option.

 

Not only that, but you know that the hostile foreign power is planning on attacking something soon, most likely you. Thus, it makes helping the mages even more important and gives even less reason to choose templars.

 

I don't remember it being said like that, but I agree that the storyline at least implies that you can't do both, if nothing else than for the fact that Arl Teagan is riding to get help from the crown.

 

But I disagree about the hostile foreign power thing. Yes, there is a hostile foreign power on your doorstep as Leliana says, but the main Venatori force was not in Redcliffe. At that point in time, it was only Alexius and a few Venatori. The main army was still north of Gherlen's Pass, and the Venatori army was led by Calpernia, not Alexius. And I agree with Laz that this is just more reason to get the templars on your side.

[Shya]

I like the Samson hunt better than the Calpernia one which is why I side with mages the most in my playthurs. Truthfully in my opinion the only thing choosing one side or the other effects is the epilogue slide at the end. Choosing the mages so I can do the Samson stuff and give Cullen extra screen time has nothing to do with it....I SWEAR...          

[BloodyTalon]

My theory is Alexius most likely attempted his time spell reguardless of weather the inquestior came to him or not and something went wrong all signs point to that.

But feel you get more helpful people siding with the templars really

[ckriley]

Having played through both paths a few times, I agree with the OP.  Helping the mages just makes far more sense.  Cassandra and Leliana said it best.  "There's a magister and a foreign power on our doorstep.  That cannot be allowed to stand."  I paraphrased that, but it's the gist of the response given to Cullen when he objects to going to Redcliffe.

 

Thinking that the Ferelden king or queen is going to deal with it doesn't make much sense, especially after you visit Redcliffe Village the first time and experience that time warp effect outside the gate.  So, after you visit Alexius and return to Haven, you now know that there is a Tevinter magister - not just a Tevinter mage, a magister - who has taken over Redcliffe, a very important part of Ferelden, giving a hated foreign power a foothold in your own backyard.  Not to mention a magister with the ability to time travel.

 

There is no reasonable leader anywhere that would not take swift and immediate action against that.

 

From a political standpoint, I could understand wanting to get the templars on your side.  It does add credibility to the Inquisition and helps get the nobility behind you.  But from purely an urgency and crisis management perspective, you'd almost have to deal with Alexius first.

 

Now, all the being said, from strictly a storytelling standpoint, the mage path is kind of stupid.  Time travel?  Really?  If he had that ability then why didn't he just time travel back to the conclave and prevent the PC from interrupting the ritual? Problem solved.  Corypheus takes over the world. 

[SwobyJ]

Any 'why didn't time travel?' questions can be answered with "Still being experimented on, and barely barely understood, only being in action now due to very recent breakthroughs and immense pressure for the Elder One to succeed."

 

Can't go back to the Conclave because the time travel itself is connected to (see the Green???) the magic of the Breach in the first place. Can't go 'prior' to its event. At best, Alexius might be able to arrive to shortly after the Breach and kill the Inquisitor then, but it would still need an invasion of Haven so.... thus... the bait to bring the Inquisitor to Redcliffe. Yeah.

 

Alexius desperately does try to time travel to (presumably) before the Breach, but we don't see the results of that, and in the Bad Future, we see signs that it wouldn't have worked anyway. (His) Victory is impossible. The Breach 'powers' the time magic. If he was instead just trying to quickly find a time where the Inquisitor is vulnerable, that wasn't as solid a plan as just luring the Inquisitor into Redcliffe, but anyway, that's where Dorian's disruption comes in, perhaps making the 'time travel' go to a point that corresponds with Alexius' thoughts about the Elder One.

 

He's also running under orders to have the Inquisitor alive. He's not likely to go too far beyond those orders, and it doesn't seem Cory is all too versed in time magic, nor does he care to be.

 

 

Alexius is dealing with something highly imperfect, experimental, and he's under various constraints. This was likely all set up this way in the writing, in order to introduce time travel (in a game not about time travel) while not making it toooo much of a confusing mess. (Now why Bioware brought in time travel in the first place, you'd have to ask them.. and probably not get a good answer yet.)

 

If the time magic was perfect, understood, and there were not constraints, then sure, Cory wins. But that wasn't how things were written. Alexius is tampering with matters far beyond him, serving a man/demon/darkspawn who considers himself a god already. Its a contained story environment, not one where you actually can easily go "Well why didn't they just time travel to stop the Inquisitor from taking the Anchor!?"