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[ckriley]

Any 'why didn't time travel?' questions can be answered with "Still being experimented on, and barely barely understood, only being in action now due to very recent breakthroughs and immense pressure for the Elder One to succeed."

 

Can't go back to the Conclave because the time travel itself is connected to (see the Green???) the magic of the Breach in the first place. Can't go 'prior' to its event. At best, Alexius might be able to arrive to shortly after the Breach and kill the Inquisitor then, but it would still need an invasion of Haven so.... thus... the bait to bring the Inquisitor to Redcliffe. Yeah.

 

Alexius desperately does try to time travel to (presumably) before the Breach, but we don't see the results of that, and in the Bad Future, we see signs that it wouldn't have worked anyway. (His) Victory is impossible. The Breach 'powers' the time magic. If he was instead just trying to quickly find a time where the Inquisitor is vulnerable, that wasn't as solid a plan as just luring the Inquisitor into Redcliffe, but anyway, that's where Dorian's disruption comes in, perhaps making the 'time travel' go to a point that corresponds with Alexius' thoughts about the Elder One.

 

He's also running under orders to have the Inquisitor alive. He's not likely to go too far beyond those orders, and it doesn't seem Cory is all too versed in time magic, nor does he care to be.

Literally everything you just posted here is exactly why time travel in fiction is helplessly stupid and lazy writing.

[SwobyJ]

Literally everything you just posted here is exactly why time travel in fiction is helplessly stupid and lazy writing.

 

I think it might not have even been (strictly) time travel - I'm with Solas on this one, and I trust his little side comments more than anything the main narrative presents me for now.

 

I think its still more about the Fade/Thedas/magic/reality and its workings, than the typical time travel plot.

[Dai Grepher]

Having played through both paths a few times, I agree with the OP.  Helping the mages just makes far more sense.  Cassandra and Leliana said it best.  "There's a magister and a foreign power on our doorstep.  That cannot be allowed to stand."  I paraphrased that, but it's the gist of the response given to Cullen when he objects to going to Redcliffe.

 

Thinking that the Ferelden king or queen is going to deal with it doesn't make much sense, especially after you visit Redcliffe Village the first time and experience that time warp effect outside the gate.  So, after you visit Alexius and return to Haven, you now know that there is a Tevinter magister - not just a Tevinter mage, a magister - who has taken over Redcliffe, a very important part of Ferelden, giving a hated foreign power a foothold in your own backyard.  Not to mention a magister with the ability to time travel.

 

There is no reasonable leader anywhere that would not take swift and immediate action against that.

 

From a political standpoint, I could understand wanting to get the templars on your side.  It does add credibility to the Inquisition and helps get the nobility behind you.  But from purely an urgency and crisis management perspective, you'd almost have to deal with Alexius first.

 

Now, all the being said, from strictly a storytelling standpoint, the mage path is kind of stupid.  Time travel?  Really?  If he had that ability then why didn't he just time travel back to the conclave and prevent the PC from interrupting the ritual? Problem solved.  Corypheus takes over the world. 

 

A hostile foreign power that is no threat to Haven. So the point is more one of how people will perceive the Inquisition. Hence, "the magister..." "Has outplayed us". And going along with the plan to be the bait and walk into the trap, it just feels like Alexius has outplayed you. The only way to make his play lose, is to avoid the trap and go for the templars.

 

Ferelden is not your own backyard. It's the crown's own backyard. Let them deal with it. And who says the crown can't deal with it, or shouldn't? It's their mess, and they have the troops to clean it up, time magic or no time magic. And what can Alexius do with his time travel ability that he hasn't done already? That's the point. Any play he is going to make with time magic, has been done already. You can't stop it because it's already happened. So ignoring him and going after the templars is something he has already responded to, if he chose to respond to it. If he hasn't acted to counter you approaching the templars, then you win. If he has acted to it, then his trap at Redcliffe fails and he must come up with a new plan. A plan that you can take measures against. But as it turns out, Alexius fails to stop you if you go to the templars, either because he did not try, or anything he did try didn't work.

 

Swift and immediate action is too slow to combat time magic.

 

The only way to combat Alexius is with trickery. You must fool him into thinking that you will seek him out and walk into his trap. Then when the Ferelden crown shows up instead, that's when he must either use his time magic to change things again, or else flee. Either way, you defeat his trap. That's the only way to beat him without doing what he wants. Also don't forget that Dorian goes after Alexius himself if the Inquisition does not. So Dorian and Felix may have had something else in mind should the Inquisition refuse their primary idea.

 

The time magic required the massive outpouring of energy from the breach in order to fuel it. So the story was that Alexius could not travel back to before the breach occurred, and of course any point after the breach occurred would be too late, since the Anchor was set into the player character's hand before or at the moment of the breach. But yes, the mages arc is stupid.

[thesuperdarkone2]

A hostile foreign power that is no threat to Haven. So the point is more one of how people will perceive the Inquisition. Hence, "the magister..." "Has outplayed us". And going along with the plan to be the bait and walk into the trap, it just feels like Alexius has outplayed you. The only way to make his play lose, is to avoid the trap and go for the templars.

Ferelden is not your own backyard. It's the crown's own backyard. Let them deal with it. And who says the crown can't deal with it, or shouldn't? It's their mess, and they have the troops to clean it up, time magic or no time magic. And what can Alexius do with his time travel ability that he hasn't done already? That's the point. Any play he is going to make with time magic, has been done already. You can't stop it because it's already happened. So ignoring him and going after the templars is something he has already responded to, if he chose to respond to it. If he hasn't acted to counter you approaching the templars, then you win. If he has acted to it, then his trap at Redcliffe fails and he must come up with a new plan. A plan that you can take measures against. But as it turns out, Alexius fails to stop you if you go to the templars, either because he did not try, or anything he did try didn't work.

Swift and immediate action is too slow to combat time magic.

The only way to combat Alexius is with trickery. You must fool him into thinking that you will seek him out and walk into his trap. Then when the Ferelden crown shows up instead, that's when he must either use his time magic to change things again, or else flee. Either way, you defeat his trap. That's the only way to beat him without doing what he wants. Also don't forget that Dorian goes after Alexius himself if the Inquisition does not. So Dorian and Felix may have had something else in mind should the Inquisition refuse their primary idea.

The time magic required the massive outpouring of energy from the breach in order to fuel it. So the story was that Alexius could not travel back to before the breach occurred, and of course any point after the breach occurred would be too late, since the Anchor was set into the player character's hand before or at the moment of the breach. But yes, the mages arc is stupid.

Considering they conscripted the rebel mages, the Venatori attacking haven bolstered by rebel mages is a pretty big threat.

[Dai Grepher]

The rebel mages were not a fighting force. They were under the impression that they would be escorted to Tevinter. And the main Venatori force was not in Redcliffe. Neither posed any threat at that time, and by the time they would pose a threat, the templars would already be recruited.

[The Oracle]

I did feel very much led down the Mage path at the beginning. It's just so much more in your face and makes far more sense for a Quizzy to go with them. First time you meet the Templars, they assault a Chantry sister in public and then call you "more than nothing" to your face, clearly expressing how little they want to do with you. Then you're approached by the rebel Mage leader who seems very interested in siding with you and asks you to come visit her.

 

From there on in, you find yourself in Redcliffe, realise that the Venatori have taken over, the citizens of Redcliffe are in danger from them, as are the hundreds of tranquil that you've found out have been slaughtered, most of the Mages have been signed over to indentured slavery against their will (Fiona taking a vote when they decided to rebel, but didn't for when she signed them over to Tevinter) and to top it all off, they're playing with time magic that'll tear the world apart and it seems like they're absolutely obsessed with you (cause that's always a great thing).

 

The reality of walking away from that in the hopes that your advisers can firstly find the Templars (that'll at least take a couple of days), gather together the Nobles (that'll take at least a couple of weeks, given you have to find them all, persuade them and then travel time from Orlais to Ferelden) all in the hopes that the w*nker you first met might be slightly less w*nk-ish when you turn up and you'll actually be able to talk with him. Sure, lets just leave Redcliffe and the nearby refugees that you've spent months helping, with a dangerous foreign power playing with world destroying time magic while you faff around with some Nobles in the rain.

 

From a gameplay stand-point however, i usually side with the Templars when I want Cole early (mostly on my Mage playthroughs, as I don't need more than two mages in my party at any given time). I find the Templar questline to be be a far longer one, given you have to go through both the initial siege, the Nightmare, then gathering the Senior Templars to finally end with the boss battle. The Mage questline is far quicker. I enjoy both quests though.

[Augustei]

I never liked the idea of mages making up the majority of my initial army though. Sure they can be useful in combat but I'm forming an army, They lack equipment, discipline, combat and formation knowledge, Heck i'm worried they'll break upon impact. 
Not something that instills confidence when going to lay siege to a fortress full of people regarded as "excellent strategists and peerless warriors"

So from the recruiting an army perspective I prefer the templars 

[BansheeOwnage]

At this point, the only anti-magic superweapon that the Inquisition has is Cassandra ... and the game ignores that completely.

She's also a superweapon against templars... which the game forgets as well. That really should have come up during gameplay or in the story at least once.

[Korva]

Literally everything you just posted here is exactly why time travel in fiction is helplessly stupid and lazy writing.

 

Agreed. I dislike time travel pretty much on principle.

 

She's also a superweapon against templars... which the game forgets as well. That really should have come up during gameplay or in the story at least once.

 

Good point! I wish she was more active during Champions of the Just (and in the main story in general, but especially during this mission), was allowed to say and do more, was recognized by the templars with a mix of both respect and worry. At this point, we're not the leader yet, and "Herald" or no, IMO Cass as a Seeker, Right Hand, Hero of Orlais and one of the two founders of the reborn Inquisition should have been given much more "weight" overall this early on.

 

I never liked the idea of mages making up the majority of my initial army though. Sure they can be useful in combat but I'm forming an army, They lack equipment, discipline, combat and formation knowledge, Heck i'm worried they'll break upon impact.

 

The majority of the army is made up of the Inquisition's own soldiers, and the main point of recuiting the templars/mages is to help with the Breach -- but as "special forces" I too prefer the templars. Even if we were to ignore matters like physical and mental fitness, discipline, experience in combat and with keeping your cool under fire, survival skills in the field ... there's still the fact that the templars are supposed be not just any warriors but elite warriors, while the rebel mages are a random hodgepodge of people with wildly varying degrees of power. There might be a few strong and battle-ready "artillery monsters" in the mix, but also many folks like Minaeve, mages whose skills are below average or plain weak as water, who would be totally useless on the battlefield in a magical capacity even if they could hack it physically and mentally.

 

Of course, that's not to say that the mages can't also be very valuable, especially as healers or in similar support capacities ... or that there are no other concerns like wanting to save the kids, Tranquil and other hapless noncombatants who might only have gone with the rebels because they saw little choice in the matter when their Circles were disbanded. But from an army-building POV, I think going with the templars definitely has the upper hand.

[Catche Jagger]

Both choices have their pros:

 

Mages-You actually have a good reason to seek them out.

Templars- The set up for the quest isn't nonsense.

 

It really comes down to personal biases and taste. Most will find some reason why their chosen path is in fact the "right one" when they are most likely rationalizing a choice that they made purely due to their pre-existing beliefs about the mages and templars.

[SwobyJ]

Both choices have their pros:

 

Mages-You actually have a good reason to seek them out.

Templars- The set up for the quest isn't nonsense.

 

It really comes down to personal biases and taste. Most will find some reason why their chosen path is in fact the "right one" when they are most likely rationalizing a choice that they made purely due to their pre-existing beliefs about the mages and templars.

 

I want to pick the Templar quest and think I'll enjoy it more but I'm a mage so MAGE POWER. Also time travel in Dragon Age lolwut?

[BloodyTalon]

I want to pick the Templar quest and think I'll enjoy it more but I'm a mage so MAGE POWER. Also time travel in Dragon Age lolwut?

The templars accept a mage quite well, given there quest it makes sense and no time travel none sense

[Dai Grepher]

Both choices have their pros:

 

Mages-You actually have a good reason to seek them out.

Templars- The set up for the quest isn't nonsense.

 

It really comes down to personal biases and taste. Most will find some reason why their chosen path is in fact the "right one" when they are most likely rationalizing a choice that they made purely due to their pre-existing beliefs about the mages and templars.

 

That would actually require them to care about the mage/templar war in the first place.

 

I was actually leaning pro-mage going into it, and so was my male human mage. But everything in Redcliffe was just such a huge mess that templars were the only valid and rational option.
 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think either quest can be justified on the basis of what is the "right" decision in the story. In terms of the narrative flow, I think I slightly prefer Champions of the Just, mainly because it feels like Dorian showing at Haven up feels a lot more natural and less random than Cole doing so. That and the envy demon showing you a vision is a little less outlandish than time travel (which probably wasn't even written well with Fiona's part).

[Vilio1]

Story-wise, I think both missions make the same amount of sense.

But I did play the templar quest only once, and probably won't do it again. I think "In Hushed Wispers" is more exciting and emotional - altough I must admit I'm a bit biased because the templars pretty much epitomize everything I despise.

[LaughingWolf]

In terms of narrative, Hushed Whispers > Champions of the Just. The Templar quest-line just makes no sense for the narrative.

 

Before you go the Val Royeaux, Leliana and Cassandra tell you that the mages would be able to power-up your anchor to seal the breach. Cullen says the Templars could suppress the breach but Leliana even states thats purely speculation.

 

You go the Val Royeaux and meet the leader of the Templars who tells you to ****** off. Then the leader of the mages invite you for negotiations.

Right off the bat, the mage side makes more sense. Why would you chase after the Templars (costing both time and resources) when the mages are welcoming negotiations. Rationally, you should at least hear the mages out.

 

Then you find a magister, cult obsessed with you, and time magic. You have no way of knowing about the Templar's issue with red lyric and the Envy demon. So the choice is basically Evil cult with time magic, or chase after the Templars who said "no" to you in Val Royreaux.

 

I personally like the Templar quest line better in terms of gameplay, but it just makes no sense why you'd go after them unless your character is highly prejudice against mages and never bothers to negotiate with them.

[chrstnmonks]

I go with the templars because I just like the quest better. Also, I can't stand the fact you can't punish Fiona for her part in the mess. 

[Vicious]

In terms of narrative, Hushed Whispers > Champions of the Just. The Templar quest-line just makes no sense for the narrative.

 

Before you go the Val Royeaux, Leliana and Cassandra tell you that the mages would be able to power-up your anchor to seal the breach. Cullen says the Templars could suppress the breach but Leliana even states thats purely speculation.

 

You go the Val Royeaux and meet the leader of the Templars who tells you to ****** off. Then the leader of the mages invite you for negotiations.

Right off the bat, the mage side makes more sense. Why would you chase after the Templars (costing both time and resources) when the mages are welcoming negotiations. Rationally, you should at least hear the mages out.

 

Then you find a magister, cult obsessed with you, and time magic. You have no way of knowing about the Templar's issue with red lyric and the Envy demon. So the choice is basically Evil cult with time magic, or chase after the Templars who said "no" to you in Val Royreaux.

 

I personally like the Templar quest line better in terms of gameplay, but it just makes no sense why you'd go after them unless your character is highly prejudice against mages and never bothers to negotiate with them.

 

 

 

Your reasoning is confusing. All you know is the leader of the Templars was a dick and now he's inviting you with open arms, things don't get really weird till you get there.

 

 

Meanwhile Redcliffe is a fortress and you simply can't take it down. Stated multiple times.

 

 

In-world, makes more sense to me that Templars first is a better choice since the Templars can give you a force capable of breaking Alexius and his cohorts via disrupting the magic that makes them a huge threat in the first place, thus giving you a victory with a minimal loss of life and dislodging them from Redcliffe. Thus you are victorious from a position of strength rather than take an implied massive risk by going to the Mages first.

 

 

that said this thread noticably lacks objectivity and is MAGE POWER. And thus cowing the rebellious Mages and Alexius himself (as Vint mages don't really have experience dealing with them) with the power of the Templars would irk almost everyone posting.

 

 

ideally my perfect playthrough is go to the Mages first, meet Dorian and co. then have the roundtable about the Mages and cancel the mission and pick the Templars instead.

 

Thus you meet Dorian AND Cole (non weirdly) get clued in to Corypheus' plan (without time travel) and get the sweet counter quests against Calpernia who is a far better character than Samson.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The problem with that is that doing Champions of the Just basically assumes that Dorian never barges into your war room. He had to run straight from Redcliffe to warn you about Corypheus so recently that he's exhausted in the templar version of In Your Heart Shall Burn.

[AshenEndymion]

The problem with that is that doing Champions of the Just basically assumes that Dorian never barges into your war room. He had to run straight from Redcliffe to warn you about Corypheus so recently that he's exhausted in the templar version of In Your Heart Shall Burn.

 

There's two parts to it.  After meeting with Dorian in the Chantry in Redcliffe, when you return to Haven and select In Hushed Whispers, a scene plays with the War Council, then you have to choose In Hushed Whispers again(this time getting a warning about being unable to recruit the Templars if continuing), and after saying yes that point, Dorian shows up in the War Room for the briefing...

[SolNebula]

I just think having more Templars in my fighting force is better since I disband their order and take all their forces. This way the Inquisition has more infantry and brute force. Also Calpernia is so much better as a villain than Samson. I also like the Temple of Dumat quest as done in the Templar way because it gives more insight on Cory motives.

[Kakistos_]

Choosing to help the Mages first was an easy choice for me. First of all the Templars show up and insult/threaten you while in contrast Fiona politely invites you to Redcliffe. There is also the fact that the Templars started this whole mess in the first place. Besides that In Hushed Whispers is by far the superior story. You go into the future and see first had the consequences should you fail. Leliana's Sacrifice is one of the best moments in the game. The antagonist is very compelling and you feel for him as he is not just the stereotypical evil Tevinter Magister but a parent doing whatever he must for his child. And there is also the Ferelden Monarch cameo. Champions of the Just offers nothing that compares.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Your reasoning is confusing. All you know is the leader of the Templars was a dick and now he's inviting you with open arms, things don't get really weird till you get there.
 
Meanwhile Redcliffe is a fortress and you simply can't take it down. Stated multiple times.
 
In-world, makes more sense to me that Templars first is a better choice since the Templars can give you a force capable of breaking Alexius and his cohorts via disrupting the magic that makes them a huge threat in the first place, thus giving you a victory with a minimal loss of life and dislodging them from Redcliffe. Thus you are victorious from a position of strength rather than take an implied massive risk by going to the Mages first.

Going to the Templars makes no sense if your plan is to use them to take out Alexius, because as you said, Redcliffe is a nigh impregnable fortress. Going in through the secret door with a small team of your best fighters is the only viable option of actually entering and dealing with the Venetori, and a horde of Templars isn't going to be useful for that.

That's quite beside the fact that it remains highly speculative that the Templars actually can do anything to the Breach. Based on what the characters in game know, the mages are the far more viable option for actually sealing the Breach.

[Korva]

A small team of your best fighters who are also anti-magic special forces would be even more viable, though. And Leliana is neither a mage nor a templar, so I'd trust the opinion of an actual templar (Cullen) over hers on this matter. Really, anything related to the Breach is speculation at this point in the game -- the only one who might have a halfway informed opinion is Solas, and he isn't inclined to reveal more than he absolutely has to.

 

As Catche Jagger said, it really boils down to personal opinion. My impression was that I'd much rather have a bunch of people who can reinforce reality push back against the Breach with me, than have those whose machinations often weaken the Veil somehow pour power into me.

[ckriley]

Your reasoning is confusing. All you know is the leader of the Templars was a dick and now he's inviting you with open arms, things don't get really weird till you get there.
 
 
Meanwhile Redcliffe is a fortress and you simply can't take it down. Stated multiple times.
 
 
In-world, makes more sense to me that Templars first is a better choice since the Templars can give you a force capable of breaking Alexius and his cohorts via disrupting the magic that makes them a huge threat in the first place, thus giving you a victory with a minimal loss of life and dislodging them from Redcliffe. Thus you are victorious from a position of strength rather than take an implied massive risk by going to the Mages first.
 

 
that said this thread noticably lacks objectivity and is MAGE POWER. And thus cowing the rebellious Mages and Alexius himself (as Vint mages don't really have experience dealing with them) with the power of the Templars would irk almost everyone posting.
 
 
ideally my perfect playthrough is go to the Mages first, meet Dorian and co. then have the roundtable about the Mages and cancel the mission and pick the Templars instead.
 
Thus you meet Dorian AND Cole (non weirdly) get clued in to Corypheus' plan (without time travel) and get the sweet counter quests against Calpernia who is a far better character than Samson.

There is some serious meta-gaming going on in this post.

As the person playing the game we know that no matter which side we choose, the breach is going to be closed. Whether that's Templars or mages doesn't matter in the least as far as the game is concerned. Both will do the job nicely. This is almost an RP choice with minor impact on everything that happens afterward.

But from an in-game perspective the PC (being in character so to speak) would have no idea that the Templars could close the breach. Everything Cullen says is pure speculation, as Leliana points out. Even Cassandra, who has zero love for mages and is mistrustful of magic, says that the magister must be dealt with at once.

As I said earlier there is no good leader anywhere that would leave a dangerous foreign power with time travel magic alone so that they could go off and gather nobles to go see an order of knights that just publicly told them to eff off.

You would have to deal with the situation in Redcliffe first. Because that is the known threat. You already know things are messed up there. You don't know there's anything wrong with the Templars until you show up at Therinfal Redoubt.