144 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

Um, no. Ferelden seems hardly capable of cleaning up its own messes, considering the state of most of the country post-Blight and post-rift. If the Hero of Ferelden were involved... maybe. Otherwise, time magic at first seems like a weird and frightening result of the rift then after talking to Dorian at best it's a mad scientist experiment (Cerberus, anyone?). 

 

Still, a point could be made that upon encountering this phenomenon an Inquisitor could chase after the Templars to use them later to solve the problem. They are magic clean up wipes, after all. 

 

It is never indicated that Ferelden's crown is incapable of expelling the mages simply because there was a blight ten years prior and there are rifts appearing. And how does the Herald know the Hero isn't involved? Also, the point is that Redcliffe and the mages are Ferelden's problems. The crown is responsible for them, so let them deal with it since that is what they're traveling there to do. Even if they aren't capable, they will spring Alexius' trap at least, making him easier for you to attack later.

[NaclynE]

This is not a thread about the morality of the mage templar war, nor is this me debating which too do. i have a hard time siding with the templars over the mages purely for the quest alone. Not because I like it more, but because of what is going on in each. 

templars: We need to save a historic order of knights that have been in the service of the church for hundreds of years!

 

me: ok that sounds like a good idea.

 

Mages: THERE IS A SORCERER HEAR LITERALLY TEARING TIME APART

 

me: :l

 

what bothers me most is even after you side with the templars, Alexius is not even mentioned afterward, let alone stopped. Dorian just remarks with something like "sure wish we coulda done somthing about that *glare*"

 

The topic doesn't match the starting statement but I'll bite...

 

Honestly you are wrong. Dorian DOES mention Alexius. If you puruse him as a friend/love interest he does mention that he saw him as a mentor and good friend but in STAR WARS terms Alexius got more into the "dark side" of things regarding research and over all goals which Dorian was very meh about. However if you press the subject of his son your inquisitor thought that the son and him were intimate. Dorian angerily says no in his own polite way without making your inquisitor mad and explains that if he did this would of really really made Alexius mad and potentially would of made him a big target of Alexius as opposed to someone who he was afraid to disapoint since Alexius greatly respected Dorian despite Dorian not siding with the venetori. In the templar storyline he was apparently killed for not providing efficiant help to Corypheus and is replaced by Capernia to do everything mage oriented for Corypheus.

 

On the subject frankly I prefer the mage storyline over the templar storyline because of the Alister and/or Anora cameo. Even though the red templars are harder to beat but with the fact that some of your allies relate to some of these villains was very neat.

[Shevy]

Since the templar arc gives you 6 additional stat points and in the end none of both paths makes a difference, there isn't really a decision to make.

[Jester]

Since the templar arc gives you 6 additional stat points and in the end none of both paths makes a difference, there isn't really a decision to make.

That's metagaming.

And paths DO make a difference.

 

Choosing Templars result in an easier battle for Haven and a more interesting nemesis quest.

[c0bra951]

 

. . . A smart Herald, even one who's more sympathetic to Templars than to mage is going to focus first on the problem closest to home.

 

Making these two quests mutually exclusive was a major blunder: they should have been placed in a linear fashion, with the conclusion of the Mages arc deciding the tone of of Templars arc . . .

 

 

Good point, and it fits in well with my take on which path to choose.  Given what the inquisitor knows at the time, s/he must side with the mages.  Not until later does time magic and the demon leading the templars come to light.  And the possible abuse of magic doesn't kill my sympathy for the downtrodden mages either.  Lumping them all together with the evil and the possessed is like lumping all Muslims together with Islamic terrorists.  Templars are guards at concentration camps full of mages in this society, and it simply isn't right.

 

In short, if the path to Champions of the Just is blocked by In Hushed Whispers, there isn't anything I can do, in good conscience.  The templars will get the short end every time from me.

[Dai Grepher]

Don't forget that the Fiona in Val Royeaux can implicate Lucius in the Divine's death, and gives a decent reason for believing so. Investigating Lucius seems to take priority over talking with rebel mages. So if we're going to go by this argument of what seems more pressing, then dealing with the templars seems more important before learning about anything going on with the mages. Also, getting the templars in line effectively ends the war, since you'd be neutralizing the main aggressor. This provides better leverage in negotiating with the mages.

 

Even after learning about time magic and Alexius' trap, it is clear that the mages can no longer help you, and you must go through Alexius for help. But since he's plotting to trap you, it leaves you with only one sensible option: Avoid him. It's too risky to go up against time magic. The only plan for doing so is a bad one. Evasion is the only sensible option. I would say risking the only person who can seal the breach as bait is the worst decision in that scenario. And even if you somehow beat Alexius, there is no guarantee that the mages will support you. Bottom line, the mage situation is a mess, and it's too risky to involve yourself in it. Templars are objectively the better option because you can approach them on your terms.

[Al Foley]

Don't forget that the Fiona in Val Royeaux can implicate Lucius in the Divine's death, and gives a decent reason for believing so. Investigating Lucius seems to take priority over talking with rebel mages. So if we're going to go by this argument of what seems more pressing, then dealing with the templars seems more important before learning about anything going on with the mages. Also, getting the templars in line effectively ends the war, since you'd be neutralizing the main aggressor. This provides better leverage in negotiating with the mages.

 

Even after learning about time magic and Alexius' trap, it is clear that the mages can no longer help you, and you must go through Alexius for help. But since he's plotting to trap you, it leaves you with only one sensible option: Avoid him. It's too risky to go up against time magic. The only plan for doing so is a bad one. Evasion is the only sensible option. I would say risking the only person who can seal the breach as bait is the worst decision in that scenario. And even if you somehow beat Alexius, there is no guarantee that the mages will support you. Bottom line, the mage situation is a mess, and it's too risky to involve yourself in it. Templars are objectively the better option because you can approach them on your terms.

Surprisingly accurate descrption of what was going through my Fem Quisitor's head. 

[In Exile]

Nothing like the Breach has ever been recorded in history before. Heck, even the guy who's artifact created it seems to be unable to affect it without his orb. Saying the mages could successfully help close it is just as much speculation as saying the templars could.

Not exactly. The mages are meant to power the Mark, which is known to close the rifts. The Mark alone calmed the breach. This is a testable empirical claim, and the Inquisition does have mages to actually test it out empirically. It doesn't end up happening that way, sure. But that doesn't mean it can't happen that way.

[Dai Grepher]

Not exactly. The mages are meant to power the Mark, which is known to close the rifts. The Mark alone calmed the breach. This is a testable empirical claim, and the Inquisition does have mages to actually test it out empirically. It doesn't end up happening that way, sure. But that doesn't mean it can't happen that way.

 

There is evidence for both sides actually. Mages are shown to be able to mend the Veil, like how Avernus did in Origins. Also, spirits can, such as Justice in Awakening. But what Cullen says about templars suppressing magic is also true. They could be used to suppress the breach. Solas and Cassandra also confirm this through party banter, where Solas describes what its like when a templar suppresses magic. It's like making the world more real than malleable. Cullen knows what templars are capable of, which means templar abilities are tested as well.

 

Personally, I would trust templars to suppress the breach before I would trust mages overloading my hand.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Not exactly. The mages are meant to power the Mark, which is known to close the rifts. The Mark alone calmed the breach. This is a testable empirical claim, and the Inquisition does have mages to actually test it out empirically. It doesn't end up happening that way, sure. But that doesn't mean it can't happen that way.

 

The Mark is completely unknown magic. The question of whether the mages can power up the mark at all, or whether they could power it up enough to close the breach or whether they could do so without catastrophic consequences like Cullen fears is also all speculation. 

[Dai Grepher]

^Maybe. It's also possible that at some point off-screen the Herald allowed some of Haven's mages to test out if they could power the mark or not. Plus, Solas would have been there to observe and probably stop the attempt if he saw something going wrong.

[thesuperdarkone2]

How do you also know Templar dispelling wouldn't also affect the breach

[XEternalXDreamsX]

With closing the breach, doesn't that stop the Time travel from working? I know that sounds like meta-gaming but Dorian mentions it in the Redcliffe chantry before Hushed that the Breach is allowing it to be done. If you are assured that the Templars can weaken the Breach to be closed, you by pass walking into a trap and stop Alexis. Also, you stop the Envy demon from taking another's form.

For me, it just comes down to supporting Mage freedom or restoring the Templar Order. The rest is icing on the cake.

[Dai Grepher]

How do you also know Templar dispelling wouldn't also affect the breach

 

You mean the anchor? Because the templars wouldn't be focusing on the anchor. They would be focusing only on the breach.

[thewatcheruatu]

For me, it's about "Who is going to help me get this friggin' rift closed?" The templars, as far as I can tell, have gone totally nuts and it isn't clear to me how they would help, anyway (probably wasn't paying attention!). Also, I don't like Tevinter being in my backyard and I want to sort that out.

 

It helps that I absolutely love Dorian and I like time travel, as well, and almost never mind seeing a time travel plot in anything.

[DuskWanderer]

Not exactly. The mages are meant to power the Mark, which is known to close the rifts. The Mark alone calmed the breach. This is a testable empirical claim, and the Inquisition does have mages to actually test it out empirically. It doesn't end up happening that way, sure. But that doesn't mean it can't happen that way.

 

How does that work, exactly? Just pour magic into it like water in a bucket? 

 

One thing that people forget is that the Breach is not a completely unknown quantity. It's known to be a rip in the Fade unforseen on any scale. The templars, through the use of lyrium, reinforce the world and block the Fade from entering. It makes sense that they reinforce the world while the Anchor does what it is supposed to do. 

[LaughingWolf]

We aren't saying that at all. We're saying, if he has the power to go back in time, then he's already done it from our perspective, in which case there is no way to counter him. In other words, if we go to Redcliffe and somehow gain the upper hand, then Alexius can simply go back in time to before I arrived at Redcliffe, in which case he knows how to counter my counter of his trap. Which means, anything you do is likely to fail. so it isn't worth all the risk.

 

The only sure way to foil Alexius' trap is to let Ferelden's crown spring it for you, since the crown is not Alexius' target. Alexius will either be forced to flee or hunker down, in which case you can later crush him with the recruited templars, or Alexius goes back in time again to when he met you in the tavern for example. In which case the timeline is changed and your past self has to deal with any new scheme Alexius makes up to change the way things go. But if he shows himself as the aggressor, then it gives the Inquisition cause to put him down right there.

 

It's all about seeing it from Alexius' perspective, since he is the time traveler here. And no, this isn't meta-gaming. This is outthinking the opponent in-game. You are told that Alexius went back in time to change things and take control of the mages before the Inquisition could. So logically, Alexius could do this again at any time. In that case, it's best to avoid him and let Ferelden's monarch(s) deal with it.

 

Not knowing the limitations is reason not to attack Alexius head-on. For all you know, the time magic allows Alexius to reload his last saved game over and over until he wins the conflict. That's why it's better to take a subtle and crafty approach. Let him send his letter and let him think you are going to Redcliffe. Make him wait there while Ferelden's crown draws closer. He'll risk it if it means getting you there. Then just pass Redcliffe on by, leaving Alexius with little time to clear out of Redcliffe before the crown gets there. This causes panic, and panic leads to mistakes, and mistakes are what you want most from Alexius.

 

Ya, everything you just said assumes you're charging at the castle facing Alexius directly, and thus he can use time magic to just win the fight.

If you simply use "a subtle and crafty approach", which is EXACTLY what you do in the mission, then Alexius doesn't have the time to use the time magic spell and you can beat him. Literally what you do in the game is the exact way to beat Alexius.

 

No way you spin this, is it a good idea to ignore the time magic once you learn about it. If you however never go to Redcliffe, or even to the chantry to speak to Dorion, then you're good. (Although then the issue is raised as why doesn't Coryepshit just get Alexius to stop you from helping the Templars.)

[thesuperdarkone2]

Ya, everything you just said assumes you're charging at the castle facing Alexius directly, and thus he can use time magic to just win the fight.
If you simply use "a subtle and crafty approach", which is EXACTLY what you do in the mission, then Alexius doesn't have the time to use the time magic spell and you can beat him. Literally what you do in the game is the exact way to beat Alexius.

No way you spin this, is it a good idea to ignore the time magic once you learn about it. If you however never go to Redcliffe, or even to the chantry to speak to Dorion, then you're good. (Although then the issue is raised as why doesn't Coryepshit just get Alexius to stop you from helping the Templars.)

It's funny how getting the help of the mages winds up being easier and more likely to succeed despite being told it is too dangerous. Apart from the time travel, the mission goes off without a hitch as you neutralize the Venatori forces, you wind up getting backup from the Ferelden army, and you are more likely to get help from mages grateful for being liberated from slavery than hoping not all Templars support the Lucius or threatening them into helping you.

[AshenEndymion]

Ya, everything you just said assumes you're charging at the castle facing Alexius directly, and thus he can use time magic to just win the fight.

If you simply use "a subtle and crafty approach", which is EXACTLY what you do in the mission, then Alexius doesn't have the time to use the time magic spell and you can beat him. Literally what you do in the game is the exact way to beat Alexius.

 

No way you spin this, is it a good idea to ignore the time magic once you learn about it. If you however never go to Redcliffe, or even to the chantry to speak to Dorion, then you're good. (Although then the issue is raised as why doesn't Coryepshit just get Alexius to stop you from helping the Templars.)

 

... Did you even complete In Hushed Whispers?

 

You do realize that Alexius does use time magic to win the fight, and the amount of time he needed to cast the spell was less than 2 seconds(likely because he prepared it before hand because he knew the Inquisitor was coming)...  The only reason why the Inquisitor survives the ordeal is because that 2 second period was apparently enough time for Dorian to realize what was going to happen, and got himself to be targeted by the spell as well.

 

That Alexius failed doesn't change the fact that walking into the trap, on purpose, is an incredibly stupid idea.  Especially when there are other options available(like recruiting the Templars, and possibly using them to assist in taking Alexius down).

[themageguy]

I prefer siding with Templars. Even as a mage

[thesuperdarkone2]

... Did you even complete In Hushed Whispers?

You do realize that Alexius does use time magic to win the fight, and the amount of time he needed to cast the spell was less than 2 seconds(likely because he prepared it before hand because he knew the Inquisitor was coming)... The only reason why the Inquisitor survives the ordeal is because that 2 second period was apparently enough time for Dorian to realize what was going to happen, and got himself to be targeted by the spell as well.

That Alexius failed doesn't change the fact that walking into the trap, on purpose, is an incredibly stupid idea. Especially when there are other options available(like recruiting the Templars, and possibly using them to assist in taking Alexius down).

Did anyone acthally read my post where your advisors straight up say the mages will be gone by the time you get the Templars? Also apart from time magic, the plan goes off without a hitch. Heck, you get the Ferelden army as backup afterwards.

[Nixou]

It is never indicated that Ferelden's crown is incapable of expelling the mages simply because there was a blight ten years prior and there are rifts appearing

 

 

As a matter of fact, it is indicated: the Hinterlands have become a battlefield between mages and templars, with the local civilian population being caught in the crossfire, something that neither Anora nor Alistair would tolerate unless the fereldan military was woefully undermanned

[LaughingWolf]

... Did you even complete In Hushed Whispers?

 

You do realize that Alexius does use time magic to win the fight, and the amount of time he needed to cast the spell was less than 2 seconds(likely because he prepared it before hand because he knew the Inquisitor was coming)...  The only reason why the Inquisitor survives the ordeal is because that 2 second period was apparently enough time for Dorian to realize what was going to happen, and got himself to be targeted by the spell as well.

 

That Alexius failed doesn't change the fact that walking into the trap, on purpose, is an incredibly stupid idea.  Especially when there are other options available(like recruiting the Templars, and possibly using them to assist in taking Alexius down).

 

He does use time magic and because you have Dorian he helps stop the spell from working fully. That right there is reason enough that as long as you get close enough Alexius can't just use the spell to full effect. And I agree it's stupid to walk right into a trap, but the Templar alternative is even more stupid. Ignoring the threat of time magic is incredibly stupid, and even if you go get the templars you can't go hunt down Alexius, you're boxed in to closing the breach.

 

You do realize thats a huge plot hole though? If you ignore Alexius and time magic and go get the Templars, why doesn't Alexius and Coryphillis just use time magic stop you? You said yourself that we don't the limitations of time magic, and Alexius can just keep using time magic to just retry a situation till he wins, so getting the Templars shouldn't work (or any victory in-game) since Alexius could just rewind time.

[Dai Grepher]

Ya, everything you just said assumes you're charging at the castle facing Alexius directly, and thus he can use time magic to just win the fight.

If you simply use "a subtle and crafty approach", which is EXACTLY what you do in the mission, then Alexius doesn't have the time to use the time magic spell and you can beat him. Literally what you do in the game is the exact way to beat Alexius.

 

No way you spin this, is it a good idea to ignore the time magic once you learn about it. If you however never go to Redcliffe, or even to the chantry to speak to Dorion, then you're good. (Although then the issue is raised as why doesn't Coryepshit just get Alexius to stop you from helping the Templars.)

 

No. I assume nothing. Let me lay this out for you from my Herald's perspective.

 

Jonathan Trevelyan: So we are going to trust Dorian, Alexius' former apprentice, to dispel whatever barrier Alexius has protecting the castle and sneak Leliana and the scouts inside through a secret passage that might have been sealed since a decade ago or might be guarded now. If that is successful and if the scouts find their way to our location in enough time to help us, then we are going to somehow overpower a magister who uses time magic. We will do all this before Alexius can use the time magic to either kill me or go back in time, in which case he'll be able to make new plans to counter our strategy. Do I have that about right?

 

Leliana: Yep.

 

Jonathan Trevelyan: ... How about no? Here's what I do if I'm Alexius. *Eh-hem* "Mu hu haw haw haw haw haaa! Inquisition! Welcome to DIE!" Bzzzt, time magic. I'm dead. But let's say for the sake of argument that Alexius doesn't kill me immediately and he feels the need to strike up a bit of small talk, and lets say you and the scouts make it to our location in time to help us. Now I, as Alexius, say, "Good plan Herald, having Dorian sneak your scouts in like that. I'll remember to take measures against it after I go back in time." Bzzzt, time magic. Now everyone in that timeline is erased, Alexius goes back in time, and Dorian and the scouts get a giant rock dropped on their heads as soon as they enter the castle. Then I walk before Alexius unaware that anything happened to you until Alexius tells me so himself, then he proceeds to kill me instantly.

 

Leliana: ...

 

So... have we received word from Lord Abernache yet Josephine?

 

My Herald didn't actually say all this in my headcanon, but you get the concept. Okay, back to your points. You say the plan is to beat Alexius before he uses time magic, and yet he was able to cast it within two seconds because that's what he was prepared to do. So in essence, you fail. And besides, what you're suggesting is foolhardy because you assume that the Herald will be able to stop Alexius from using time magic. You have no way of knowing if you'll be able to pull that off. You are literally risking everything on the unknown.

 

Now, to answer your excellent question about Alexius using time magic to stop you from getting the templars. First, let's leave Corypheus out of it, since it's actually more plausible that Alexius would act on his own rather than waste time asking Corypheus for help. Plus, it's more likely that Corypheus was still recovering/traveling to get into position, and thus could not be reached. So let's say going to the templars forces Alexius to use time magic to go back in time and stop you. We must look at what options Alexius would have available to him in this case. He has only a few options, and the first step is to select a proper time.

 

He can't go back to before he took the mages, because he has to take the mages and get them on his side. Otherwise, it's him vs. the Inquisition and the rebel mages. So the earliest point is probably when you meet in the tavern, since he knows you are going to travel there. Like I said before, if he attacks you in this setting then it proves him the aggressor and you are justified in taking him down right there. It would be a risky move for him. If he were to bring all his men and have them lie in wait, then it might work. BUT, he could do this anyway if you approach him in Redcliffe Castle. So this possibility exists either way. All you can do is hope that your pre-Gull and the Lantern party is able to survive whatever forces Alexius had at his disposal at the time. And also remember that the Inquisition sent scouts ahead of your party to meet with Fiona. When you cross the main gate outside the village a scout informs you of this. So, if Alexius were to set a trap in this timeframe your scouts would have discovered it before you got there. Most likely.

 

So what other timeframes could Alexius have used? Another is the point in which you leave Haven to go to Therinfal. But in this case you can be prepared for anything. In other words, you can take precautions to watch out for any signs of Alexius trying to stop you. In this case you actually have defensive measures that you can employ, and you have a much larger compliment of guards to assist you and your noble allies. From Alexius' perspective, this is also risky, as he is basically only going back in time insofar that he can attack you in the present. He doesn't know how things will go. You are on an even playing field in this case, whereas in Redcliffe Castle you are on Alexius' turf.

 

The second thing to consider is what allies Alexius has in order to stop you. He can't mobilize the mages against you at The Gull and the Lantern because the mages would not have listened to him. The deal was to protect the mages from combat and get them to Tevinter. So commanding them to attack the Inquisition when they have made no hostile moves would seriously hinder Alexius' efforts in conscripting the mages. This would be true if he were to attack you on the road to Therinfal or at Therinfal as well. So he would only have his own Venatori forces, which were still undercover at the time. He might be able to attack you while at Therinfal, but then he would risk being attacked by the templars. And if he appears at Therinfal, then you must face him. So what? That's what you would have done had you gone for the mages. So it was inevitable. Still, at least this way you are on even ground, and perhaps have templars on your side to help you. Also, a larger compliment of your own troops.

 

He can't attack you after Therinfal, because conceivably you would have convinced the templars to your side.

 

So, by thinking the situation through logically, any Herald can deduce that going after the templars carries minimal risk. One could also conclude that if Alexius were going to use time magic to kill or capture you before the trap, then he would have done it already. Logically, the trap IS his way of killing or capturing you. So best to avoid it.