144 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

It's funny how getting the help of the mages winds up being easier and more likely to succeed despite being told it is too dangerous. Apart from the time travel, the mission goes off without a hitch as you neutralize the Venatori forces, you wind up getting backup from the Ferelden army, and you are more likely to get help from mages grateful for being liberated from slavery than hoping not all Templars support the Lucius or threatening them into helping you.

 

Easier? How so? You fail to stop Alexius and get pulled into a time portal that spits you out in a bad future where everyone has been killed or worse. From there, if either you OR Dorian die, then the bad future becomes set in stone. And even if you beat Alexius when he is one year more powerful and experienced, then Dorian still might not be able to get you back to the present. He says the spell could turn you into paste. And Leliana kills Felix, thus ensuring that you must fight Alexius, and that you could possibly die because of it, or that he might smash the amulet in anger. The fact that mission can even succeed at all is a miracle.

 

You don't get backup from Ferelden. You have the situation solved by the time they get there.

 

Having nobles pressure knights who seek recognition into service is much more likely than stopping a time mage and hoping the colossal idiot Fiona is grateful to you for doing so. And to that point, you didn't know if Fiona would help Alexius in that battle or not.
 

[Dai Grepher]

 

As a matter of fact, it is indicated: the Hinterlands have become a battlefield between mages and templars, with the local civilian population being caught in the crossfire, something that neither Anora nor Alistair would tolerate unless the fereldan military was woefully undermanned

 

 

The monarch(s) act(s) as teyrn/teyrna. Which means they mobilize banns to military action. But the primary responsibility for policing lands falls to the bann of those lands. The conflict between rogue mages and rogue templars was not a dire issue for the crown since the two BAD sides were killing each other off. All the local banns had to do was station guards in the populated areas and let the two factions cancel each other out. Which is what Arl Teagan was doing. He was protecting Redcliffe, which was untouched by the conflict. The monarch(s) granted the good mages asylum in Redcliffe. When Arl Teagan was ousted, it provoked the crown to action because only the crown could legally deal with the group that it granted asylum to.

 

Just because the crown didn't bother throwing lives at two enemies that were killing each other just fine doesn't mean the crown was incapable of dealing with rebel mages in Redcliffe Castle.
 

[Dai Grepher]

He does use time magic and because you have Dorian he helps stop the spell from working fully. That right there is reason enough that as long as you get close enough Alexius can't just use the spell to full effect. And I agree it's stupid to walk right into a trap, but the Templar alternative is even more stupid. Ignoring the threat of time magic is incredibly stupid, and even if you go get the templars you can't go hunt down Alexius, you're boxed in to closing the breach.

 

You do realize thats a huge plot hole though? If you ignore Alexius and time magic and go get the Templars, why doesn't Alexius and Coryphillis just use time magic stop you? You said yourself that we don't the limitations of time magic, and Alexius can just keep using time magic to just retry a situation till he wins, so getting the Templars shouldn't work (or any victory in-game) since Alexius could just rewind time.

 

Now who is meta-gaming? You don't know that Dorian can counter the time magic. You hope he can. It is a risk. And besides, he didn't counter it well enough. You still got caught in it, the world still went to crap, and you still took an unnecessary and foolhardy risk.

 

How is the templar path more stupid than walking into a trap when the templar path is not known to be a trap? Plus, you can approach the templars on your terms. You hold the upper hand in that path. With Alexius, you just hope all these unlikely things play out in your favor.

 

Theoretically you wouldn't have to hunt down Alexius. If he wants to capture or kill you, then he will come to you, and you just have to be ready for it by taking proper precautions.

 

Theoretically, if they could use time magic to stop you, then the trap is unnecessary, as they would have used time magic already to attack you any time between you falling out of the Fade and you going for templar aid. Also, if they attack you after getting templar aid, then you are in a better position to defend yourself against them.

 

Yes, Alexius could rewind time. But if that's true in either case, and it is, then the question becomes one of which path is more likely to succeed? I will take approaching templars with plenty of guards over risking myself as bait by walking blindly into a trap any day of the week.

[themageguy]

One of the best things about siding with the Templars is the missions involving calpernia.

I so love the ribbing my mage inquisitor gets from Cory, calling me.an inferior mage lol

[ApostleinTriumph]

Templar mission is much, much more difficult. Supply caches are extremely rare. In comparison In Hushed Whispers is a joke.

[Lazarillo]

One of the best things about siding with the Templars is the missions involving calpernia.

 

Yeah, Calpernia one of the big notches in the "pick Templars" column for me, too (although that's pretty meta-game-y).  On the other hand, I do like Alexius better than Envy, though...unfortunately, it's the post-Skyhold lieutenants that get more attention, but the two almost cancel each other out.

 

Along similar lines...I know it's possible to pick up Samson's song from the bookstore if you take the Templar route, but will the minstrel still sing it in the tavern if you acquire it?  Or can you only actually hear it if he's your enemy?

[Arvaarad]

Yep, the real deciding factor for me is the nemesis quests. Samson's is fine, but after doing Calpernia's it's hard for anything to measure up. Champions of the Just is (IMO) less exciting then In Hushed Whispers, but Under Her Skin more than makes up for it. It has more Corypheus backstory packed into it too.

[Leon481]

I can't get myself to side with the templars again. I did it once, but I just can't get over having to kill Fiona a nd potentially getting Connor killed. I worked too hard to save Connor in Origins to put him in that situation and Fiona's a long standing series character with major connections to Alistair. If those two could be spared, I'd side with the templars, but as it is,mages win.

 

It really feels like they're pushing you to side with the mages by putting those two on the chopping block. I know there are a couple of old faces on the Templar side too, but no one with the same impact.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I can't get myself to side with the templars again. I did it once, but I just can't get over having to kill Fiona a nd potentially getting Connor killed. I worked too hard to save Connor in Origins to put him in that situation and Fiona's a long standing series character with major connections to Alistair. If those two could be spared, I'd side with the templars, but as it is,mages win.

It really feels like they're pushing you to side with the mages by putting those two on the chopping block. I know there are a couple of old faces on the Templar side too, but no one with the same impact.

It probably didn't help that they made the Templars the villains in Asunder.

[LaughingWolf]

Now who is meta-gaming? You don't know that Dorian can counter the time magic. You hope he can. It is a risk. And besides, he didn't counter it well enough. You still got caught in it, the world still went to crap, and you still took an unnecessary and foolhardy risk.

 

How is the templar path more stupid than walking into a trap when the templar path is not known to be a trap? Plus, you can approach the templars on your terms. You hold the upper hand in that path. With Alexius, you just hope all these unlikely things play out in your favor.

 

Theoretically you wouldn't have to hunt down Alexius. If he wants to capture or kill you, then he will come to you, and you just have to be ready for it by taking proper precautions.

 

Theoretically, if they could use time magic to stop you, then the trap is unnecessary, as they would have used time magic already to attack you any time between you falling out of the Fade and you going for templar aid. Also, if they attack you after getting templar aid, then you are in a better position to defend yourself against them.

 

Yes, Alexius could rewind time. But if that's true in either case, and it is, then the question becomes one of which path is more likely to succeed? I will take approaching templars with plenty of guards over risking myself as bait by walking blindly into a trap any day of the week.

 

You know Dorian can help counter the time-magic because if you speak to him in the Chantry the you learn he helped develop it. Obviously he has insight to time-magic that you lack.

 

Also I have no idea why you think you're walking "blindly" into a trap? You have a plan in place to neutralize Alexius and his "trap".

You're not going in half-witted and blind. Going after the Templars is pointless once you learn of the time magic as it's more of an immediate threat and because of the massive plot hole that Alexuis could simply use time magic to stop you from helping the Templars.

[DuskWanderer]

I can't get myself to side with the templars again. I did it once, but I just can't get over having to kill Fiona a nd potentially getting Connor killed. I worked too hard to save Connor in Origins to put him in that situation and Fiona's a long standing series character with major connections to Alistair. If those two could be spared, I'd side with the templars, but as it is,mages win.

 

It really feels like they're pushing you to side with the mages by putting those two on the chopping block. I know there are a couple of old faces on the Templar side too, but no one with the same impact.

 

IF you do the Chargers mission, you capture a mage who tells you about Wulff. I headcanon that as Connor, particularly since he'd do such a thing.

 

As for Fiona, her poor judgment leads to bad choices. I encourage you to side with the templars, I think it's a better mission.

[Livi14]

It probably didn't help that they made the Templars the villains in Asunder.

Indeed, Asunder made me downright hate the templars. There are some honorable templar characters in the games and the novels, but ratio of sympathetic Templar characters were greatly out numbered by the amount of sympathetic mage characters.

[Legion of 1337]

1. I don't understand why you can't do both (the Inquisitor goes to one, sends their minions to the other).

 

2. I don't understand why Calpernia and Samson are specific to which side you pick here. Neither of them die in either quest, so it doesn't make any sense why both of them aren't present in the story.

 

3. The hand-waiving of Alexius' time magic if you go Templars is just atrocious. Even more atrocious than the narrative rules of his time magic itself.

 

4. The Mages invited you to Redcliffe, and the Templars told you to ****** off. Just from this, if forced to pick, why would you go Templar?

 

5. As soon as you do go to Redcliffe, any justification for going after the Templars evaporates because time magic crisis.

[themageguy]

1. I don't understand why you can't do both (the Inquisitor goes to one, sends their minions to the other).

2. I don't understand why Calpernia and Samson are specific to which side you pick here. Neither of them die in either quest, so it doesn't make any sense why both of them aren't present in the story.

3. The hand-waiving of Alexius' time magic if you go Templars is just atrocious. Even more atrocious than the narrative rules of his time magic itself.

4. The Mages invited you to Redcliffe, and the Templars told you to ****** off. Just from this, if forced to pick, why would you go Templar?

5. As soon as you do go to Redcliffe, any justification for going after the Templars evaporates because time magic crisis.

4. The actions of Barris indicated to my inquisitor that there was some dissension amongst their ranks, and thought he could use that to gain leverage in getting the assistance from them in closing the breach.

[Vearsin]

I always go to the templars for a few reasons. 

 

1. From a writing perspective Cole needed that introduction. Wether you've read the books or not that was a necessary introduction to the character and to have him just pop up on the mage side is a disservice to the character. 

 

2. Barris. This guy does not get enough love, but he is a shining example of what the templar order needs to be. 

 

3. Calpernia. She gives us all the nuance and moral complexity that Coryphytits didn't.  

[Lazarillo]

1. From a writing perspective Cole needed that introduction. Wether you've read the books or not that was a necessary introduction to the character and to have him just pop up on the mage side is a disservice to the character.

 

I kind of have the opposite feelings, especially because, regardless of when Cole appears, when you get to Skyhold he's portrayed as the mysterious, just-appeared enigma, which fits a little better with how he shows up if you side with the Mages.  Similarly, I feel like In Hushed Whispers is a more natural introduction for Dorian.

 

Honestly, I think the reasons to choose them are just about equal...

 

1. The story gives good reasons for them both.

 

2. As mentioned in my previous post, Calpernia is the better post-Skyhold rival, but Alexius is the best pre-Skyhold rival.  Slight advantage to the Mages, but only slight.

 

3. The Templars give a slight stat boost, but the Mages give an extra song in the tavern (unless I'm mistaken in that, but I really don't think I've ever heard the song in my Templar playthroughs).  A trade between a little bit of flavor or a little bit of power, both have their upsides, but neither is going to make a huge difference.

 

4. Finally, the Mages, as noted, are IMO a better introduction to Dorian and Cole, but the Templars leads to better options for the world state in the Epilogue, since regardless of allying or conscripting them, if you have any Divine but Leliana, they're back to the verge of civil war again during the ending (and I...dislike Leliana as a candidate for Divine).

[Dai Grepher]

I can't get myself to side with the templars again. I did it once, but I just can't get over having to kill Fiona a nd potentially getting Connor killed. I worked too hard to save Connor in Origins to put him in that situation and Fiona's a long standing series character with major connections to Alistair. If those two could be spared, I'd side with the templars, but as it is,mages win.

 

It really feels like they're pushing you to side with the mages by putting those two on the chopping block. I know there are a couple of old faces on the Templar side too, but no one with the same impact.

 

Connor most likely stayed in Redcliffe when Arl Teagan arrived with the monarch(s). I doubt he would have followed Fiona to join Tevinter, and unlike the other mages, he had options.

[draken-heart]

Honestly, I would rather RP/Headcanon the choice:

• I go mages if I play a mage or a character who finds the time magic interesting. or one who simply wants to  get rid of tevinter at all.
• I go Templars if I want a character who wants to build respect for the Inquisition (Templars have the respect of every nation in Thedas so having them and the Wardens makes sense from that point of view).

[Dai Grepher]

You know Dorian can help counter the time-magic because if you speak to him in the Chantry the you learn he helped develop it. Obviously he has insight to time-magic that you lack.

 

Also I have no idea why you think you're walking "blindly" into a trap? You have a plan in place to neutralize Alexius and his "trap".

You're not going in half-witted and blind. Going after the Templars is pointless once you learn of the time magic as it's more of an immediate threat and because of the massive plot hole that Alexuis could simply use time magic to stop you from helping the Templars.

 

Ah, but you don't know that Dorian helped Alexius develop time magic. He tells you that he did. You are merely trusting that what he tells you is the truth, which is actually just another risk.

 

Well, because you don't know the layout of the castle. You don't know what forces Alexius has waiting for you. Also, you don't know how Alexius plans to capture or kill you, or if he will even be there at all. And as I wrote, your plan may have already been compromised by Alexius' time magic.

 

Time magic is a concerning threat. I agree. But, it is too strong of a threat to face head-on. Granted, if IHW had given us the option to say... work with Connor on learning the layout of the castle, and Felix in stalling Alexius should he try to use time magic too early, and also Sera or Varric or Leliana in assassinating Alexius from stealth while he was being stalled, THEN you argument might have a point, because you would be setting up a plan that Alexius would not have time to counter. It would still be a massive all or nothing risk, because if Alexius can counter it with his time magic you'll most likely die.

 

Basically, time magic is a major threat, but it's so major that it should be avoided. You can't handle it. Best to bypass it entirely and let Ferelden's troops take the risk. And yes, Alexius could use the time magic to stop you from approaching the templars, but in that case confronting the time magic is unavoidable, so it's a moot point. At least you TRIED to avoid it in that case. Still, it is better to have Alexius waste his time magic stopping you from going to the templars than it is to have him use it wisely to kill or capture you. If he uses it to block your approach to Therinfal, then Alexius is getting himself into a situation that he is blind to. In which case you can take precautions.

 

I'm not saying let your guard down after you decide to avoid Alexius, because he could come after you at any time on the way to Therinfal. What I am saying is that at least this way you draw him out into the open rather than walk into his domain.

[Dai Grepher]

IF you do the Chargers mission, you capture a mage who tells you about Wulff. I headcanon that as Connor, particularly since he'd do such a thing.

 

As for Fiona, her poor judgment leads to bad choices. I encourage you to side with the templars, I think it's a better mission.

 

Krem states that the one the captured fought back. Connor would not have fought. So, it wasn't Connor, who likely just stayed behind in Redcliffe while the mages left to go north toward the Ferelden border.

[Dai Grepher]

1. I don't understand why you can't do both (the Inquisitor goes to one, sends their minions to the other).

 

2. I don't understand why Calpernia and Samson are specific to which side you pick here. Neither of them die in either quest, so it doesn't make any sense why both of them aren't present in the story.

 

3. The hand-waiving of Alexius' time magic if you go Templars is just atrocious. Even more atrocious than the narrative rules of his time magic itself.

 

4. The Mages invited you to Redcliffe, and the Templars told you to ****** off. Just from this, if forced to pick, why would you go Templar?

 

5. As soon as you do go to Redcliffe, any justification for going after the Templars evaporates because time magic crisis.

 

1. Agreed. Redcliffe is on the way to Therinfal. IHW only takes about 10 minutes in real time. You should be able to go straight from Redcliffe to Therinfal with the templars being none the wiser that you already recruited the mages.

 

2. Samson I can see, because he was supposed to have been the one to lead the red templars. He wasn't there to do so (probably feeding his addiction somewhere), and left it in the incapable hands of an envy demon. So since there are so few red templars afterward, there is no need for Samson. With Calpernia, I agree with you. The Venatori did not get all that many mage recruits from the Redcliffe deal. Most fled or were killed, and I'm sure some who died took some Venatori with them. So even if you denied them all the mages, the Venatori forces should still be close to what they were anyway. In which case Calpernia is still needed.

 

3. The whole story with time magic was bad. They should have went with one where Alexius pulls everyone into the Fade, and into a world that is shaped by his wants. It's been done in Origins, but oh well.

 

4. To investigate Lucius. To gain the stronger ally. To stop the war. To get back at them for insulting you in Val Royeaux. To bring them in line. Because you want to restore the Circle. Because rebels aren't good allies. Because the rebels have asylum in Ferelden. Plenty of good reasons.

 

5. Time magic could also be seen as too dangerous to approach. Avoiding such danger could be seen as prudent.

[XEternalXDreamsX]

Connor most likely stayed in Redcliffe when Arl Teagan arrived with the monarch(s). I doubt he would have followed Fiona to join Tevinter, and unlike the other mages, he had options.

Lol. Conner had a screw loose thinking Alistair was King in one of world states where he was actually executed by Anora. ;p Who knows? Then I turn around and side with the Templars and I end up killing Fiona. Don't get me wrong, it's not why I sided with the Templars. It just added to the fact that she made a bad decision and paid for it. Like many NPCs. Alistair threatened me for not executing Loghain, even though his reasoning was valid. So, off with your head. Now, Anora, let's bang, k? ;p I feel so wrong but it was an intense PT for me.

[Mr.House]

Founhd hushed HWispers and Samson boring, Champions of the Just was far more enjoyable, Bran was waaaay better then Fiona and Calpernia

[Vearsin]

Headcanon wise, I always thought of the templar path as a good justification for my Inquisitor trusting and eventually caring for Cole. Once you go into the envy demons illusion he is your one ally, your only guiding light. That was a pretty powerful thing for me. 

[OdanUrr]

I'm playing my Dalish Elf Mage and I'm torn yet again between saving the mages or the templars!