361 réponses à ce sujet

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

That's a trope, not merely a stereotype. Lee Everett has plenty of the same.

Seriously, you're going by that but you chose a black man who murdered the man who slept with his wife in a jealous rage as a non-stereotype black character? Because 'black man, murder, and homicidal jealousy' is definitely a racially-tinged stereotype in parts of the US.

Angry aggressive black woman Michone? Stereotypical with backstory to justify the stereotype (which doesn't reduce the stereotype).

And Derek Morgan? You chose Derek Morgan as a stereotype-free person? Let's count the American black stereotype tropes involved- raised by mother, youth gangs and crime, played football, and that's just the backstory.

Yes but they balanced it out without making them all violent, evil, and hostile and they write them to be an inspiration to prove that anyone could overcome their hardships and to seek redemption. Vivienne in the other hand doesn't have a backstory. I really want to know what happened to her before she became the Grand Enchanter and to have a relationship with her to know her better.

[straykat]

Yes but they balanced it out without making them all violent, evil, and hostile and they write them to be an inspiration to prove that anyone could overcome their hardships and to seek redemption. Vivienne in the other hand doesn't have a backstory. I really want to know what happened to her before she became the Grand Enchanter and to have a relationship with her to know her better.

 

I'll agree with that at least. There could have been more done with her. But this points to my general gripe on the direction of the whole game. It doesn't emphasize many things I was looking forward to.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

You keep trying to explain what "angry black woman is." We understand what it is. Vivienne just doesn't fit it, in any sense, at all.

If you're curious look real close at her next time you play the game, and you will get the same answer.

[straykat]

You can stare at her for days... she's still not "angry". She's an Ice Queen. Mean, but not angry.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

You can stare at her for days... she's still not "angry". She's an Ice Queen. Mean, but not angry.

If she starts off as a snotty, ******, rude, and hostile on a constant level that is considered that she has anger issues. But if you believe otherwise that's cool.

[straykat]

If she starts off as a snotty, ******, rude, and hostile on a constant level that is considered that she has anger issues. But if you believe otherwise that's cool.

 

She may very well be hiding anger, but that's still an emotion I don't see. I think she may act that way, as a means of survival too. Much like Morrigan.

 

And if she was angry, I wish they had delved into it. Like you said, I wish we knew more before she became Grand Enchanter.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lee did killed a man but he emerged as a hero of the story and he loved Clementine and will do anything for her and his character has no stereotypical traits at all.

 

 

Being the hero and loving Clementine is irrelevant to whether he fits a stereotype elsewhere... and is, itself, a separate stereotype.

 

So now we have two stereotypes. Angry black man, and zealous father figure.

 

 

 

Morgan is far from a stereotype as a black man can be. He's a good guy and his heart is in the right place by helping people.

 

 

What makes you think those can't be stereotypes?
 

 

He started off bad, but all that he been through made him stronger as a black man not lesser.

 

 

Gee, because there have never been any violent black man redemption stories or tropes before, right?

 

 

But it still doesn't change the fact that Vivienne is all rights and purposes is a sapphire stereotype.

 

 

Disputed, nor have you shown how that's all she is. Vivienne, after all, is a hero in the story, and she does demonstrate selfless love and faithfulness (for Bastion). Those are two of your three mitigating factors for Lee, and your third is directly contested.

[Dean_the_Young]

Yes but they balanced it out without making them all violent, evil, and hostile and they write them to be an inspiration to prove that anyone could overcome their hardships and to seek redemption.

 

 

Ah, so they are stereotypical characters! Glad we agree on that.

 

Good to see you're progressive enough to enjoy black stereotypes. Now we'll work on which black stereotypes are acceptable and even laudable in building a character. Vivienne seems to have a leg up on them, since she not only overcame hardships but she's done nothing (to our knowledge) to really need rememption for- unless you mean having political views that some oppose, but that's really not a redemption scenario unless you're really into paternalism.
 

 

Vivienne in the other hand doesn't have a backstory. I really want to know what happened to her before she became the Grand Enchanter and to have a relationship with her to know her better.

 

 

Have you tried talking? She'll tell you quite a bit, and you can find more by listening to her companion dialogue with others.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

She may very well be hiding anger, but that's still an emotion I don't see. I think she may act that way, as a means of survival too. Much like Morrigan.

And if she was angry, I wish they had delved into it. Like you said, I wish we knew more before she became Grand Enchanter.

She's not about survival per se, but they made her as an intolerable and constantly a hostile yet emotionless character with no backstory and no character depth whatsoever which I find that suspicious also.

[Dean_the_Young]

She's not about survival per se, but they made her as an intolerable and constantly a hostile yet emotionless character with no backstory and no character depth whatsoever which I find that suspicious also.

 

How can Vivienne be both emotionless and an angry black woman?

 

And where does all that snark come from, anyway? And the approval/disapproval metrics? And Cole's insights?

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Ah, so they are stereotypical characters! Glad we agree on that.

Good to see you're progressive enough to enjoy black stereotypes. Now we'll work on which black stereotypes are acceptable and even laudable in building a character.


Have you tried talking? She'll tell you quite a bit, and you can find more by listening to her companion dialogue with others.

But they're not stereotypes either they just flawed people who started off a bad place before they become heroes of the story, and as a black man in America they inspired me. And the whole Vivienne backstory was weak. Cassandra tells you about herself. Lace tell about herself too. Even Morrigan tells about herself of where she come from and her mother raised her. But Vivienne is the only female character who doesn't have a background which I find it odd.

[Donk]

But they're not stereotypes either they just flawed people who started off a bad place before they become heroes of the story, and as a black man in America they inspired me. And the whole Vivienne backstory was weak. Cassandra tells you about herself. Lace tell about herself too. Even Morrigan tells about herself of where she come from and her mother raised her. But Vivienne is the only female character who doesn't have a background which I find it odd.

Wrong. Sera wasn't clear about her background either.

I think it's time you took that tinfoil hat off. You're literally delusional. You are seeing things that aren't there.

We live in a sick society and I understand why you're like this, too much exposure to the internet and too much time on your hands.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Truth's a ****** ain't it?

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

How can Vivienne be both emotionless and an angry black woman?

And where does all that snark come from, anyway? And the approval/disapproval metrics? And Cole's insights?

Why are you asking a question when I already provided the answer?

[straykat]

A lot of the writing could be better in the game. I wouldn't single out Vivienne.

 

Come on. You know this.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Wrong. Sera wasn't clear about her background either.

I think it's time you took that tinfoil hat off. You're literally delusional. You are seeing things that aren't there.

We live in a sick society and I understand why you're like this, too much exposure to the internet and too much time on your hands.

Simple: You just don't want to hear the truth. And your misdirection proves it.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Apparently yes

Plus, it's the same guy who complained the Bioware is racist because he couldn't live out his fetish

Ah! I have a secret admirer!

[Colonelkillabee]

But they're not stereotypes either they just flawed people who started off a bad place before they become heroes of the story, and as a black man in America they inspired me. And the whole Vivienne backstory was weak. Cassandra tells you about herself. Lace tell about herself too. Even Morrigan tells about herself of where she come from and her mother raised her. But Vivienne is the only female character who doesn't have a background which I find it odd.

They inspire anyone, we're not the only ones that start off in a bad place. Lol, started from the bottom...

 

And if you were paying attention, her backstory is there. It isn't weak just because she doesn't harp on about her woes to any stranger that will listen. She's the strong self contained type that requires digging to find out more about.

 

You're looking for **** to be pissed off about. Vivienne wasn't undersold as a character, you just don't like the character. Which is fine, but too many people assume that if they don't like a character that is black, it's because the writers didn't do her justice because she's black, which is entitled swill.

[Frenrihr]

I actually liked her even if she was a "******" i even liked her more when we were on the Spa in Trespasser, we were like the best friends ever.

[Colonelkillabee]

You keep trying to explain what "angry black woman is." We understand what it is. Vivienne just doesn't fit it, in any sense, at all. 

Indeed, I know angry black women. They're in my family. Vivienne... I don't think I've ever seen her legitimately "angry". No one can get past her wall of sass, sarcasm and passive aggressiveness to legitimately make her angry, lol. If anything, she's more like a character off of mean girls or something, which isn't at all a stereotype for a black woman.

 

If people choose to see a stereotype, they'll see a stereotype. There are some people that see black characters in a story and instantly think "cliche" if they portray traits that aren't perceived as universally negative. Even black people do this. Actually I think they do it more than anyone else because we're more sensitive to how we are portrayed in media. Which can lead to a sense of entitlement to how the writer wrote the character.

 

Which is exactly what is going on in this thread.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

They inspire anyone, we're not the only ones that start off in a bad place. Lol, started from the bottom...

And if you were paying attention, her backstory is there. It isn't weak just because she doesn't harp on about her woes to any stranger that will listen. She's the strong self contained type that requires digging to find out more about.

You're looking for **** to be pissed off about. Vivienne wasn't undersold as a character, you just don't like the character. Which is fine, but too many people assume that if they don't like a character that is black, it's because the writers didn't do her justice because she's black, which is entitled swill.

I'm not even mad or angry at this issue, I merely answered a question. You just don't like what I said.

[Xilizhra]

No one can get past her wall of sass, sarcasm and passive aggressiveness to legitimately make her angry, lol.

Cole can.

[Colonelkillabee]

I'm not even mad or angry at this issue, I merely answered a question. You just don't like what I said.

No, I simply disagree with it because you're making an issue where there is none based solely on the fact that she is black, and you don't like how her character was handled. There are other characters like her, but she gets a special mention specifically because she is black.

 

Self awareness, you need some.

[Colonelkillabee]

Cole can.

Cole gets to everyone.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

No, I simply disagree with it because you're making an issue where there is none based solely on the fact that she is black, and you don't like how her character was handled. There are other characters like her, but she gets a special mention specifically because she is black.

Self awareness, you need some.

So you want me to apologize? Say that I'm wrong? Pretend that there's no such thing as racism? Sorry not going to happen.