361 réponses à ce sujet

[lynroy]

But they're not stereotypes either they just flawed people who started off a bad place before they become heroes of the story, and as a black man in America they inspired me. And the whole Vivienne backstory was weak. Cassandra tells you about herself. Lace tell about herself too. Even Morrigan tells about herself of where she come from and her mother raised her. But Vivienne is the only female character who doesn't have a background which I find it odd.

I've already stated that she does in fact have a backstory, she'll tell you. But no, let's just continue to ignore that fact just to suit your whims. Pull the other one. You are choosing to see a stereotype where there is none solely because of her skin color.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I've already stated that she does in fact have a backstory, she'll tell you. But no, let's just continue to ignore that fact just to suit your whims. Pull the other one. You are choosing to see a stereotype where there is none solely because of her skin color.

Whatever floats your boat man.

[lynroy]

Whatever floats your boat WOMAN.

Fixed. Stop being sexist and assuming someone on the internet is a man.

[Colonelkillabee]

So you want me to apologize? Say that I'm wrong? Pretend that there's no such thing as racism? Sorry not going to happen.

I don't need for you to say you're wrong for me to know you are. It's a discussion, so I'm discussing. You are free to do what you will.

 

And I never said anything about racism not existing but your problem, and the problem of many others is they see racism everywhere. You do know what gaming company this is, right? You're barking up the wrong tree, this is pretty much as progressive a gaming company as one can get. They miss the ball every now and then in their attempts to make gaming more inclusive, for sure, and they often come off too strongly with it, but racist? Rofl, far from it.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Fixed. Stop being sexist and assuming someone on the internet is a man.

My bad! Sheesh! You getting mad over nothing.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I don't need for you to say you're wrong for me to know you are. It's a discussion, so I'm discussing. You are free to do what you will.
 
And I never said anything about racism not existing but your problem, and the problem of many others is they see racism everywhere. You do know what gaming company this is, right? You're barking up the wrong tree, this is pretty much as progressive a gaming company as one can get. They miss the ball every now and then in their attempts to make gaming more inclusive, for sure, and they often come off too strongly with it, but racist? Rofl, far from it.

Ubisoft does an astounding job of writing people of color without racism and stereotypes.

[Lady Artifice]

If you're curious look real close at her next time you play the game, and you will get the same answer.

 

I've looked very closely at her already, and she's still not an angry person. She's calculating, manipulative, aloof. She's also practical to the point of ruthlessness and as elitist as a person can get, a consequence of being thrown into a court full of murdery intrigue and treated like a glorified court jester. Most people would be chewed up in that environment. Vivienne, in contrast, mastered it. She turned herself into a political powerhouse in a world where Mages usually stand no chance at doing so.

 

If you want to read something negative into that, fine, but the "angry" accusation just isn't going to stick, because the image she projects is too much the opposite of that. Even if she comes to a point where she's thoroughly at odds with the PC, the manner she presents to them is one of chilly disdain.

[Colonelkillabee]

Ubisoft does an astounding job of writing people of color without racism and stereotypes.

You mean "we don't think we can write a female protagonist" Ubisoft? Lol.

[Steelcan]

You mean "we don't think we can write a female protagonist" Ubisoft? Lol.

we aren't treating that line as anything besides a really bad excuse are we?  They obviously can, they chose not to and got skewered over it.

[Colonelkillabee]

we aren't treating that line as anything besides a really bad excuse are we?  They obviously can, they chose not to and got skewered over it.

Obviously, yes. The point being they're no more perfect in the whole inclusive thing than Bioware is. Bioware chooses to be inclusive even if they can't portray certain types of characters very well, and Ubisoft just decided to flat out not try it.

 

Personally, I don't care that they went that route, it's their choice and not everyone needs to make their media more inclusive for its own sake. Point being no one's perfect, and Bioware's certainly not racist for it, no more than Ubisoft is sexist like so many claimed for not wanting to make a female protagonist.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I've looked very closely at her already, and she's still not an angry person. She's calculating, manipulative, aloof. She's also practical to the point of ruthlessness and as elitist as a person can get, a consequence of being thrown into a court full of murdery intrigue and treated like a glorified court jester. Most people would be chewed up in that environment. Vivienne, in contrast, mastered it. She turned herself into a political powerhouse in a world where Mages usually stand no chance at doing so.
 
If you want to read something negative into that, fine, but the "angry" accusation just isn't going to stick, because the image she projects is too much the opposite of that. Even if she comes to a point where she's thoroughly at odds with the PC, the manner she presents to them is one of chilly disdain.

Ok if you don't think that she is a stereotype, that's cool.

[Dean_the_Young]

So you want me to apologize? Say that I'm wrong? Pretend that there's no such thing as racism? Sorry not going to happen.

 

I'd rather you be less racist or sexist myself, but then I just think harping on a set characteristics just because they're held by a black woman is an ugly racial double-standard.

[thesuperdarkone2]

My bad! Sheesh! You getting mad over nothing.

 

Do you read your own posts

[Dean_the_Young]

But they're not stereotypes either they just flawed people who started off a bad place before they become heroes of the story, and as a black man in America they inspired me. And the whole Vivienne backstory was weak. Cassandra tells you about herself. Lace tell about herself too. Even Morrigan tells about herself of where she come from and her mother raised her. But Vivienne is the only female character who doesn't have a background which I find it odd.

 

So you like black stereotypes if they inspire you. Good to know- but that doesn't make them less stereotypical, or you any less of a consumer of said racial stereotypes.

 

 

 

 

 

Why are you asking a question when I already provided the answer?

 

Possibly because I don't believe in double-think.

 

Normally when a person makes two contradictory complaints- 'she's emotionless' and 'she's angry'- one or the other should be recanted unless you intend to be a hypocrite. Same with 'she has no backstory' and 'the backstory she has is weak'- one is a complaint of absence, another is a complaint.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

So you like black stereotypes if they inspire you. Good to know- but that doesn't make them less stereotypical, or you any less of a consumer of said racial stereotypes.
 
 
 
 
 

 
Possibly because I don't believe in double-think.
 
Normally when a person makes two contradictory complaints- 'she's emotionless' and 'she's angry'- one or the other should be recanted unless you intend to be a hypocrite. Same with 'she has no backstory' and 'the backstory she has is weak'- one is a complaint of absence, another is a complaint.

It's called critical thinking but forget it.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

 
Do you read your own posts

Uh so?

[GoldenGail3]

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Understanding Vivienne's motivations is difficult because they are not made clear, I think she does actually care about mages though. If you listen to some of the things she says about what happened to mages who did not agree with the rebels, it seems like a lot of the loyalists were killed in the conflict. 

 

Her banter with Cole is the most interesting because he can get at how she actually feels, there is one memory Cole digs out of her finding the burned body of a mage who was supposedly killed by rebels. The fact that was on her mind at all shows that it does affect her. It also explains why she hates the rebels so passionately, she feels they are responsible for the deaths of innocent people, many of whom she probably was close with. That said they are also a threat to the place of power she has so all the more reason for her to hate them. 

 

She's also terrified of demons so the idea of not having safeguards probably also terrifies her. My best guess is that she truly believes that mages need to be in circles and everything she has seen only confirms that stance. She also knows that she loses a lot if not all of her political power without that system though and she does not want that. 

And yet, regardless of that anger toward the rebel mages and Vivienne's supposed hatred of mages (claimed by people in this thread that are not you) and her supposedly singular focus her own self-serving power.... given the right choices in-game, Divine Vivienne lets the mages who don't want to return to the circle system stay out and form their own college. She maintains peaceful equilibrium with them.

 

Vivienne absolutely does care about people in general and about her fellow mages, specifically. When they're not doing something she thinks is stupid that is endangering both the populace at large, their own continued existence, and the position of power she's fought hard to earn, she's more than cooperative.

[Colonelkillabee]

It's called critical thinking but forget it.

I don't think you know what that means. I know you probably feel ganged up on right now, and I'm guessing that's why your responses are so short and dismissive, but try and take the time to give a decent response to at least some of the posts.

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't think you know what that means. I know you probably feel ganged up on right now, and I'm guessing that's why your responses are so short and dismissive, but try and take the time to give a decent response to at least some of the posts.

 

Here have something more productive to the thread then anything in the last 11 pages.

[Catilina]

It's called critical thinking but forget it.

It's called one-dimensional thinking. Dn't forget it!

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I don't think you know what that means. I know you probably feel ganged up on right now, and I'm guessing that's why your responses are so short and dismissive, but try and take the time to give a decent response to at least some of the posts.

Meaning tell you what you want to hear.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

It's called one-dimensional thinking. Dn't forget it!

I'll bear that in mind

[Colonelkillabee]

Meaning tell you what you want to hear.

No, meaning if you disagree, give me a response with more than one sentence that just tells me you do, rather than why what I said in your opinion is wrong. Like I did, basically. You can disagree till the cows come home, but if you have reasons at least, then at least I won't assume you're just too stubborn to admit you think you were wrong after all. Because that's all anyone will think when you just blow off their responses.

[Dean_the_Young]

It's called critical thinking but forget it.

 

Nah, critical thinking is about analyzing a concept, not making contradictory claims.