361 réponses à ce sujet

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

No, meaning if you disagree, give me a response with more than one sentence that just tells me you do, rather than why what I said in your opinion is wrong. Like I did, basically. You can disagree till the cows come home, but if you have reasons at least, then at least I won't assume you're just too stubborn to admit you think you were wrong after all. Because that's all anyone will think when you just blow off their responses.

I did explain the reason why Vivienne is a stereotype of an angry black woman with actual evidence to back it up, and they're not opinions they're actually facts. But as I said many times before if you don't believe a word I say that's fine.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Nah, critical thinking is about analyzing a concept, not making contradictory claims.

That's exactly what I did. I analyze a character and observed their flaws and expose it.

[Heimdall]

I did explain the reason why Vivienne is a stereotype of an angry black woman with actual evidence to back it up, and they're not opinions they're actually facts. But as I said many times before if you don't believe a word I say that's fine.

Can you give even a single instance of Viviene being angry? I don't mean cold, I don't mean ruthless, I mean actually angry.

[Master Warder Z_]

Can you give even a single instance of Viviene being angry? I don't mean cold, I don't mean ruthless, I mean actually angry.

 

I think the closest we get is when you talk with her at Haven about the mage rebellion and how it basically was Mages declaring war on the world and how short sighted and stupid it was...

 

She seemed pretty peeved, that's about it as far as I can recall, or sabotaging the cure attempt for her lover, that one too.

[Heimdall]

I think the closest we get is when you talk with her at Haven about the mage rebellion and how it basically was Mages declaring war on the world and how short sighted and stupid it was...

She seemed pretty peeved, that's about it as far as I can recall, or sabotaging the cure attempt for her lover, that one too.

So only when she's frustrated at how mages sabotage themselves or you sabotage a cure intended to save her loved one. And even in these cases she shows immense control over herself, she never flies off the handle.

[Colonelkillabee]

I did explain the reason why Vivienne is a stereotype of an angry black woman with actual evidence to back it up, and they're not opinions they're actually facts. But as I said many times before if you don't believe a word I say that's fine.

I missed this supposed evidence apparently, but I know when people start calling their opinions facts, it's time to wrap it up.

 

I also know you didn't give me any so called proof in our interactions thus far.

[Colonelkillabee]

Ok look at her patterns of her behavior the way she talks to people like crap and always antagonistic like she always looking for a fight. These are signs of anger and being combative constantly which she's a black woman with a negative personality. Hence the angry black woman stereotype.

Went back a bit since you don't feel like actually conversing. This example you gave, isn't the stereotype for angry black women.

 

Angry black female stereotype is loud, sometimes obnoxiously so, and actually visibly, not subtly... angry.

 

Also, you should probably watch this:

 

[TEWR]

here's what it comes down to:

 

Vivienne is not as stereotypical as other black characters in video games or other forms of media. That, however, does not mean she is completely free of being written stereotypically.

[Catilina]

here's what it comes down to:

 

Vivienne is not as stereotypical as other black characters in video games or other forms of media. That, however, does not mean she is completely free of being written stereotypically.

One of the characters either. At least, most of it is not.

[Qun00]

Nope not seeing it. Just the typical ice queen archetype.

And a poorly done one at that. The drama with her dead lover is supposed to be the "ohhh, she's got a heart underneath" moment, but that drew no simpathy from me.

[Colonelkillabee]

No it comes down to this.

 

No matter what, whether it's a gay character, black character, trans character or what have you, somebody somewhere will always accuse the writer of writing them stereotypically. I know, opinions opinions, but honestly, what is the stereotypical behavior exactly? Can a black character not have some aspects that aren't totally positive without someone saying it is stereotypical or racist or blah blah?

[TEWR]

No it comes down to this.

 

No matter what, whether it's a gay character, black character, trans character or what have you, somebody somewhere will always accuse the writer of writing them stereotypically. I know, opinions opinions, but honestly, what is the stereotypical behavior exactly? Can a black character not have some aspects that aren't totally positive without someone saying it is stereotypical or racist or blah blah?

 

 

My post on page 2:

 

 

 

 

ourFunnyUncle, on 22 Aug 2015 - 2:28 PM, said:

 

People keep saying that Vivienne is stereotypically black because apparently she is "sassy", but to me everything about her character screams "power-hungry socialite", which stereotypically I would consider to be a white woman's role. I think of someone like Meryl Streep's character in The Devil Wears Prada.

Edit: In case it's not clear, I don't consider such stereotypes to be a good thing.

 

 

 

I wouldn't say it's just because she's sassy. I'd say (though I'm far from an expert on the matter) t's also because she's relegated to being a Mistress role (even if she cares for Bastien and got along with his wife, the fact that she's a Mistress probably has something to do with it, as that's generally what black women are relegated to), she's unable to be a LI for players (it's not really about BW for that one, but how black characters are treated in media, undeserving of true romance), and how when Bastien dies she's not even allowed, on the part of her writer, the chance to break down and be vulnerable (because black women are expected to be strong and emotionally stable at all times, and if they show emotions are usually chastised for it).

 

Frankly I'd say Vivienne was treated like a tool by Bioware rather then a character. Whether she was stereotypical or not is not for me to say, though I do fear that she was.

 

 

-----

 

When discussing whether or not a character is a stereotype, you have to look at the outside looking in perspective. That is to say, how we as people can be influenced by social commentary in our society to the point that we start writing these things. 

[Colonelkillabee]

I already read the post, and to me it looks like you're looking way too into it. Like I said, blacks just can't seem to take roles without someone calling it stereotypical. The whole mistress thing I'd even argue nowadays is outdated, replaced by the "jezebel" pretty white woman, because to black men especially, they are desired more for one reason or another. My mother in fact mentioned that to me the other day when I asked her why she was so sensitive to seeing black men with white women, even though she herself went out of her race.

 

I don't disagree with the idea of her being used as a tool though, but not as a black character. Rather as a way to get the templar retort from someone other than Cullen and who could be unapologetic about it, for the red, blue, green formula of choosing a divine.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Can you give even a single instance of Viviene being angry? I don't mean cold, I don't mean ruthless, I mean actually angry.

[Colonelkillabee]

So now a black woman only has to show one instance of anger for her to be deemed a stereotype. The irony of this is, you talk about racism but it's you that are advocating that they be portrayed as less human by restricting what emotions they can show, to avoid stereotypes... She's human. She doesn't get angry 99% of the time, but everyone, stereotype or not experiences each emotion at one point or another in their lives. It does not define them.

 

And besides, that was hardly "angry black woman" angry. That was her being upset at Cole reading her thoughts.

 

As for Morrigan, you wouldn't have even known that unless Cole read her mind...

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

So now a black woman only has to show one instance of anger for her to be deemed a stereotype. The irony of this is, you talk about racism but it's you that are advocating that they be portrayed as less human by restricting what emotions they can show, to avoid stereotypes... She's human. She doesn't get angry 99% of the time, but everyone, stereotype or not experiences each emotion at one point or another in their lives. It does not define them.

And besides, that was hardly "angry black woman" angry. That was her being upset at Cole reading her thoughts.

As for Morrigan, you wouldn't have even known that unless Cole read her mind...

You have your answer. You expect it to change?

[Colonelkillabee]

You have your answer. You expect it to change?

I expect people that go on and on about racism to not mirror actual racists by proclaiming a legitimately good character is a stereotype based on one moment of weakness.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I expect people that go on and on about racism to not mirror actual racists by proclaiming a legitimately good character is a stereotype based on one moment of weakness.

Whatever you say.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

My post on page 2:

-----

When discussing whether or not a character is a stereotype, you have to look at the outside looking in perspective. That is to say, how we as people can be influenced by social commentary in our society to the point that we start writing these things.

My thoughts exactly.

[YourFunnyUncle]

And yet, regardless of that anger toward the rebel mages and Vivienne's supposed hatred of mages (claimed by people in this thread that are not you) and her supposedly singular focus her own self-serving power.... given the right choices in-game, Divine Vivienne lets the mages who don't want to return to the circle system stay out and form their own college. She maintains peaceful equilibrium with them.

Vivienne absolutely does care about people in general and about her fellow mages, specifically. When they're not doing something she thinks is stupid that is endangering both the populace at large, their own continued existence, and the position of power she's fought hard to earn, she's more than cooperative.

To me that seems an overly generous reading of her character, but at least it's actually based on what she does and says in-game and I can see how you came to the conclusion you did.

I wish I could say the same for N7Phantom's "Sapphire" assertions...

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Went back a bit since you don't feel like actually conversing. This example you gave, isn't the stereotype for angry black women.
 
Angry black female stereotype is loud, sometimes obnoxiously so, and actually visibly, not subtly... angry.
 
Also, you should probably watch this:
 
https://www.youtube....h?v=ProEYXRBd2s

*deep sigh* Why are you telling me stuff that I already know? The difference is that Vivienne is more subtle with hers, but enough to notice that she's an angry black woman in general.

[Qun00]

Ahh, so that's how we're playing now. It's not that it isn't there... you just have to squint really, really hard to see it.

[YourFunnyUncle]

When discussing whether or not a character is a stereotype, you have to look at the outside looking in perspective. That is to say, how we as people can be influenced by social commentary in our society to the point that we start writing these things.

But everything you mentioned from using Bastien as a social stepping-stone to not wanting to show public weakness on his death is better explained by her being a cool calculating social climber in Orlesian society. Why invoke stereotypes based on real-world prejudices that she has never experienced? I don't think it's the writers being unduly influenced by our society but those complaining.

Edit: Or did I misunderstand you and we're basically agreeing?

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

But everything you mentioned from using Bastien as a social stepping-stone to not wanting to show public weakness on his death is better explained by her being a cool calculating social climber in Orlesian society. Why invoke stereotypes based on real-world prejudices that she has never experienced? I don't think it's the writers being unduly influenced by our society but those complaining.

Because they set it up to make Vivienne not a romance option as an excuse to not start a relationship with a black woman, and interracial relationship trope.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

*deep sigh* Why are you telling me stuff that I already know? The difference is that Vivienne is more subtle with hers, but enough to notice that she's an angry black woman in general.

I think Cassandra is more an angry white woman than Vivienne is an angry black woman, to be honest.

 

And that is to say, they both act angry when appropriate. (... And Cass also puts knives through books as therapy. lol)

 

There's a whole folder on TV tropes dedicated to the tropes people think Vivienne displays. They typically include evidence of some kind and anything about being '"angry" is not among them. And even if it was, tropes are not bad.