*deep sigh* Why are you telling me stuff that I already know? The difference is that Vivienne is more subtle with hers, but enough to notice that she's an angry black woman in general.
Because it seems to me like you don't know it. There's nothing subtle about the angry black woman trope, it's all in your face. That's the whole point.
Anything else is you trying too hard to find racism.
Because they set it up to make Vivienne not a romance option as an excuse to not start a relationship with a black woman, and interracial relationship trope.
Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
If she were romanceable, you'd be saying they used her for sex appeal for the overly sexualized black woman stereotype, because she goes from being a mistress to your sex object for having not much of a role in the inquisition besides that.
Let me put it this way: They do have her as a tease (You can look but you can't have) by her having a body from God (I have absolutely nothing against it) and her beauty and her outfit is revealing so yes she's a hypersexualized black character by her appearance (like Jacob was a sex symbol), but they don't have to give her a revealing outfit. And just because I said romance doesn't mean I just want to have sex with her I want to get to know her as a person and have romantic moments together like with Cassandra. They should have made her a romance option @ Trespasser DLC to give players an opportunity to start a relationship to get to know her better. That's all I ever wanted.Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
If she were romanceable, you'd be saying they used her for sex appeal for the overly sexualized black woman stereotype, because she goes from being a mistress to your sex object for having not much of a role in the inquisition besides that.
It's revealing in a similar way that Morrigan is revealing. Less so actually. It has nothing to do with her ethnicity.
I'm telling you, she's just the other side of Morrigan. A counterpart, so to speak. I bet if we got a hold of the design notes, this is what it'd say too.
Eh. Except Vivienne got a better body than her.It's revealing in a similar way that Morrigan is revealing. Less so actually. It has nothing to do with her ethnicity.
I'm telling you, she's just the other side of Morrigan. A counterpart, so to speak. I bet if we got a hold of the design notes, this is what it'd say too.
It's like I said, damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they didn't make her sexy like other mage women, wearing revealing clothes, then people would say there's favoritism as to who Bioware portrays as attractive. It goes on and on.
Please, just let black characters be characters without over-analyzing everything about them just because they're black. I guarantee the grand majority of people never went "oh here we go, yet another subtly angry black sexualized character that cant experience romance after systematic oppression of a people that while it has no bearing in this world, must have been included by the writers that are". Sheesh. It's friggin ridiculous, you should be happy someone finally put a black woman up as someone that's got sex appeal, most black women I know are frustrated that they don't.
So now a black woman only has to show one instance of anger for her to be deemed a stereotype. The irony of this is, you talk about racism but it's you that are advocating that they be portrayed as less human by restricting what emotions they can show, to avoid stereotypes... She's human. She doesn't get angry 99% of the time, but everyone, stereotype or not experiences each emotion at one point or another in their lives. It does not define them.
And besides, that was hardly "angry black woman" angry. That was her being upset at Cole reading her thoughts.
As for Morrigan, you wouldn't have even known that unless Cole read her mind...
Yeah for this I'd have to agree with you. It'd be different if 80-90% of her dialogue was her fuming at one thing or another, but a few isolated cases doesn't make her an angry black woman stereotype.
This is a case of adding 1 and 1 and getting 11. Or 111.
Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
If she were romanceable, you'd be saying they used her for sex appeal for the overly sexualized black woman stereotype, because she goes from being a mistress to your sex object for having not much of a role in the inquisition besides that.
This is why it would help if Bioware had more PoC writers, or if Mary Kirby had at least consulted with PoC to get a better sense of what to do and what not to do. Granted, not every black woman in the world will agree on the same things -- some may enjoy something about her while others deem it offensive -- but the act of at least trying to take into account the narratives that black women face daily would've been a boon all on its own.
This is why it would help if Bioware had more PoC writers, or if Mary Kirby had at least consulted with PoC to get a better sense of what to do and what not to do. Granted, not every black woman in the world will agree on the same things -- some may enjoy something about her while others deem it offensive -- but the act of at least trying to take into account the narratives that black women face daily would've been a boon all on its own.
Yes, consultation I think would have been good. If they wish to try something but don't know how on their own, consulting others with that perspective rather than avoiding it entirely or going in blindly imo is the best way to go. That might help them also write better gay characters as well. I like Dorian, as one example, but I do get why LGBT people see him as too obviously gay from his mannerisms and speech.
Actually, non LGBT said the same, I guess I didn't mind it because he was a Tevinter mage, and some flamboyance from them isn't exactly unusual.
But yea. At the end of the day you can't please everyone. I honestly though Vivienne was a pretty decent character, that could have been more if her role in the inquisition seemed more vital. As it stands, if you never bring her along, you wouldn't miss out on much. Same could be said for a few others as well though.
This is why it would help if Bioware had more PoC writers, or if Mary Kirby had at least consulted with PoC to get a better sense of what to do and what not to do. Granted, not every black woman in the world will agree on the same things -- some may enjoy something about her while others deem it offensive -- but the act of at least trying to take into account the narratives that black women face daily would've been a boon all on its own.
I dunno. That would apply if Mary Kirby had actually screwed up and made Vivienne into a stereotype. But instead, as most of us seem to agree, she just made Vivienne a character. Which is perfectly fine writing.
What you're suggesting I think would actually backfire and make her a stereotype, if done. Vivienne doesn't need to represent "narratives black women face". She needs to represent narratives Vivienne faces, which she does.
Eh. Except Vivienne got a better body than her.
I beg to differ.
Basically, to make it clearer, I do think Vivienne suffers from some flaws in writing, like TEWR pointed out earlier. I just don't agree with Phantom that it's because of black stereotyping. Not saying that TEWR does or doesn't, I'm guessing that you're trying to look at it from our perspective and agree that some of it can be perceived as stereotypical. That much I agree with you, TEWR. The problem is though, and I see this in my family a lot, too often we look for flaws in a character we don't like that is black and deem it stereotypical or racist. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. In our culture, we see it happen so often that we can't help but cherry pick them out even when there is really nothing there. It's exactly like the saying that if you look for something hard enough, you'll find it.
And this sort of thing annoys me so much because it's discouraging for everyone involved that try to make good characters that just happen to be colored, or gay, or whatever. As soon as I see them, I get a pit in my stomach because I just know that despite the writer's best efforts, their race will come up, and even though people's hearts are in the right place, it's detrimental to do this if you want to see improvement in their writing, as well as more inclusion of them in the future. It's very important that people stay focused on actual issues and recognize actual racism, over just poor writing or poor character planning. Like, for instance Tinker Tom in Fallout 4.... the way he talks is so painful I can barely stand it.
I dunno. That would apply if Mary Kirby had actually screwed up and made Vivienne into a stereotype. But instead, as most of us seem to agree, she just made Vivienne a character. Which is perfectly fine writing.
What you're suggesting I think would actually backfire and make her a stereotype, if done. Vivienne doesn't need to represent "narratives black women face". She needs to represent narratives Vivienne faces, which she does.
That, is also true. Writers should just not focus on her race at all and just write the character without worrying about if she fits in a stereotype or not. Sometimes, characters fit in stereotypes and tropes. Like you said, it's not always a bad thing.
Why can't we all just focus on the tiny kitten?
I like dogs more 
How in the hell that I'm a racist if I'm black my damn self? You're just being silly.I'd rather you be less racist or sexist myself, but then I just think harping on a set characteristics just because they're held by a black woman is an ugly racial double-standard.
Personally, I want an angry Asian woman. Reminds me of dear old mom (although Cass comes close.. even if not Asian).
How in the hell that I'm a racist if I'm black my damn self? You're just being silly.
Blacks can certainly be racist, especially to themselves. That's actually the saddest and most unfortunate effect of American slavery.
I don't think you're actually racist, I just don't think you realize that by overanalyzing Vivienne's personality and calling her stereotypical for one or two moments of genuine human emotion, that you mirror those that see black people only in one or two ways. Because it restricts the writer in how they can portray black people, and even gay people, as we do this with them as well.
Eventually it will create a new trope where the only character type that blacks have are upbeat happy and cheerful. And what's even more ironic about that is, that too is already a stereotype for black characters, because back in the day, no one wanted to see an unhappy black character on tv that would make whites feel guilty.
We never have hate on no one. We never go to another country bombing, murdering, and raping other people of color, we never bombed Hiroshima and we sure as hell never bring chaos to this planet. You don't know nothing about us! You don't know what we have to go through of being black and being the most hated race of the world! So don't tell me you have black people in your family that you automatically know black people! How dare you have the audacity to call us racists! I think you should be quiet.Blacks can certainly be racist, especially to themselves. That's actually the saddest and most unfortunate effect of American slavery.
I don't think you're actually racist, I just don't think you realize that by overanalyzing Vivienne's personality and calling her stereotypical for one or two moments of genuine human emotion, that you mirror those that see black people only in one or two ways. Because it restricts the writer in how they can portray black people, and even gay people, as we do this with them as well.
Eventually it will create a new trope where the only character type that blacks have are upbeat happy and cheerful. And what's even more ironic about that is, that too is already a stereotype for black characters, because back in the day, no one wanted to see an unhappy black character on tv that would make whites feel guilty.
We never have hate on no one. We never go to another country bombing, murdering, and raping other people of color, we never bombed Hiroshima and we sure as hell never bring chaos to this planet. You don't know nothing about us! You don't know what we have to go through of being black and being the most hated race of the world! So don't tell me you have black people in your family that you automatically know black people! How dare you have the audacity to call us racists! I think you should be quiet.
I AM black, but thanks for showcasing your ignorant presumptuousness. You also have a very limited idea of what is racism.
Not to mention, one doesn't have to be black to recognize racism amongst blacks towards whites, as well as towards themselves. It's a sad fact of black culture. Look it up, the psyche of children of slavery, it's the most insidious effect that American Slavery had on the black man and woman. A lot of it was intentional, planned so that slaves would be easier to control in the long run.
You must be blind. And why do you have a white man as your avatar? Do you want to be white? You can't accept the fact that you're born from a black woman's womb? You not being proud of who you are? Listen to yourself.I AM black, but thanks for showcasing your ignorant presumptuousness. You also have a very limited idea of what is racism.
You must be blind. And why do you have a white man as your avatar? Do you want to be white? You can't accept the fact that you're born from a black woman's womb? You not being proud of who you are? Listen to yourself.
Wow so now I have to make a black Inquisitor because I'm black?
I made him white because for the setting, it seemed appropriate to me. There aren't a lot of "black" people in this game outside of where Duncan and Isabella hailed from. So again, thanks for showcasing your presumptuous ignorance. I get enough of people asking me if I want to be white just because I like rock music AS WELL as hip hop, or because I don't want to dress like Wakka Flocka Flame and wear boots instead of Jordans...
Now I want to be white because I wrote and made a character in a videogame that fit the setting. Nice. Thanks for that. Like I said, you don't know it, but you're mirroring the racists you say you hate so much by telling me what I can and can't be if I am black.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You have a good day.Wow so now I have to make a black Inquisitor because I'm black?
I made him white because for the setting, it seemed appropriate to me. There aren't a lot of "black" people in this game outside of where Duncan and Isabella hailed from. So again, thanks for showcasing your presumptuous ignorance. I get enough of people asking me if I want to be white just because I like rock music AS WELL as hip hop, or because I don't want to dress like Wakka Flocka Flame and wear boots instead of Jordans...
Now I want to be white because I wrote and made a character in a videogame that fit the setting. Nice. Thanks for that. Like I said, you don't know it, but you're mirroring the racists you say you hate so much by telling me what I can and can't be if I am black.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You have a good day.
No, it's you that have no idea what you are talking about, and you've just shown yourself to be the racist you were accused of being earlier after all.
Unlike others, I don't feel a need to showcase my insecurities. Because I don't have them. I know who I am, and my race has no bearing on who I am. So, I write and play who I want, I listen to whatever I like, wear whatever I like, and if it happens to not be something that is supposedly "for black people" oh friggin well. If you think that means I "want to be white" then to hell with your opinion.
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