361 réponses à ce sujet

[BronzTrooper]

Yay, another thread that makes no sense  

[ComedicSociopathy]

Yay, another thread that makes no sense  

 

We really need a new DLC. People are starting to go crazy in boredom. 

[BronzTrooper]

We really need a new DLC. People are starting to go crazy in boredom. 

 

Didn't Descent launch recently?  (last-gen, so I'm not really keeping track of the DLC launches atm)

[Illegitimus]

No.  Sneaky aristocratic snobbery is not a particularly black stereotype.   

[Roninbarista]

Stereotypical? Can the OP elaborate on what's stereotypical about Vivienne as a black woman?

Archetype-wise Vivienne reminds me of Emma Frost; scheming, powerful, ambitious, and astute. Also, like others have posted, she is a mage with drastically different viewpoints to other mages in-game. She is pro-Templar, pro-Circle, and believes in mages holding power. I don't see her as a stereotype.

[Fizzie Panda]

Somebody shut this down..

 

I mean, what is a stereotypical black person anyway!?! Vivienne is a regular person, but obviously power-driven and self serving. You can call her a stereotypical elitist but it has nothing to do with her being black.

 

Yeah Jacob was a mess, and he happened to be black. So?? I'm so confused by how being black has anything to do with their archetypes.

 

Geez.

[Dabrikishaw]

Of all words I'd call Vivenne, "stereotypical" isn't one of them.

[Excella Gionne]

She is way more likable than Jacob. I couldn't stand a minute conversing with Jacob. I actually like Vivenne despite the things I hate about her.

[cdizzle2k3]

Nah... If anything, she's more of the 'elitist' stereotype than a racial trope. She's highly ranked/very powerful in the Orlesian social order, lives lavishly, and detests people who are against said order. I wouldn't say that's anywhere near a black stereotype.

 

If you're talking about her having an attitude, then still no... She's just too powerful of a figure to easily conform to the opinions of others, which makes sense.. You think someone like Donald Trump could be convinced that Mexican Immigrants benefit the country? Of course not, he's used to being "the man" and won't easily retreat from his opinions... Same goes for Vivienne.

[Rawgrim]

I didn't find her to be stereotypical anything, to be honest. And I am not sure what a stereotypical black character would be like?

[TeffexPope]

Nah... If anything, she's more of the 'elitist' stereotype than a racial trope. She's highly ranked/very powerful in the Orlesian social order, lives lavishly, and detests people who are against said order. I wouldn't say that's anywhere near a black stereotype.

 

If you're talking about her having an attitude, then still no... She's just too powerful of a figure to easily conform to the opinions of others, which makes sense.. You think someone like Donald Trump could be convinced that Mexican Immigrants benefit the country? Of course not, he's used to being "the man" and won't easily retreat from his opinions... Same goes for Vivienne.

Why would he need convincing? He has thousands of immigrants that work for him. Legal ones.

 

And thus begins the shutdown of this thread...get in while you can, folks.

[cdizzle2k3]

Why would he need convincing? He has thousands of immigrants that work for him. Legal ones.

 

And thus begins the shutdown of this thread...get in while you can, folks.

Without diving into politics... for the sake of making a real life parallel... One of his main talking points is to buckle down on immigration, and he also mentioned mass deportation. You can rebut his points with all the logic in the world, but he won't back off partially because his elite personality. You can say that's similar to Viv and her pro-Circle views. I just mention Trump because he's a relevant person in the media that's known for being very elitist and stubborn.

[cdizzle2k3]

I didn't find her to be stereotypical anything, to be honest. And I am not sure what a stereotypical black character

You've got the black character that's solely defined by physical strength and not much depth in personality. The petty criminal character. The smooth talker(Jacob). Character abandoned by father(Jacob). Character with issues with authority. Loud, 'Sassy' female, which I think the OP was trying to say Vivienne was... 

[Rawgrim]

You've got the black character that's solely defined by physical strength and not much depth in personality. The petty criminal character. The smooth talker(Jacob). Character abandoned by father(Jacob). Character with issues with authority. Loud, 'Sassy' female, which I think the OP was trying to say Vivienne was... 

 

Most of those "traits" would apply to Han Solo as well, I think.

[dgcatanisiri]

Personality-wise, no, I don't think she counts towards the stereotype of like the Sassy Black Woman. I DO, though, think there's shades of the stereotype of the 'strong independent black woman who don't need no man' in her portrayal. Like, sure, she has her relationship with Bastien, but we barely see anything of it, and she's still The Mistress, regardless of social attitudes of the concept in Orlais. It's the idea that she's somehow 'stronger' for her lack of a romance. We see a LOT of the 'Iron Lady.' We don't get to see her take off that mask. It's always on, and it's given people a really bad impression of her, as you can see anytime there's a conversation about her.

[Deebo305]

Off topic section shut down but this thread still open? I'm calling shenanigans Bioware!

[TEWR]

People keep saying that Vivienne is stereotypically black because apparently she is "sassy", but to me everything about her character screams "power-hungry socialite", which stereotypically I would consider to be a white woman's role. I think of someone like Meryl Streep's character in The Devil Wears Prada.

Edit: In case it's not clear, I don't consider such stereotypes to be a good thing.

 

I wouldn't say it's just because she's sassy. I'd say (though I'm far from an expert on the matter) t's also because she's relegated to being a Mistress role (even if she cares for Bastien and got along with his wife, the fact that she's a Mistress probably has something to do with it), she's unable to be a LI for players (it's not really about BW for that one, but how black characters are treated in media), and how when Bastien dies she's not even allowed, on the part of her writer, the chance to break down and be vulnerable (because black women are expected to be strong and emotionally stable at all times, and if they show emotions are usually chastised for it).

 

Frankly I'd say Vivienne was treated like a tool by Bioware rather then a character. Whether she was stereotypical or not is not for me to say, though I do fear that she was.

[YourFunnyUncle]

I wouldn't say it's just because she's sassy. I'd say (though I'm far from an expert on the matter) t's also because she's relegated to being a Mistress role (even if she cares for Bastien and got along with his wife, the fact that she's a Mistress probably has something to do with it), she's unable to be a LI for players (it's not really about BW for that one, but how black characters are treated in media), and how when Bastien dies she's not even allowed, on the part of her writer, the chance to break down and be vulnerable (because black women are expected to be strong and emotionally stable at all times, and if they show emotions are usually chastised for it).

 

Frankly I'd say Vivienne was treated like a tool by Bioware rather then a character. Whether she was stereotypical or not is not for me to say, though I do fear that she was.

But none of the reason or motivation for any of that comes from her skin colour. She's a mistress because she's a mage and so that's all she can be. She refuses to show weakness because she's a scheming social climber who relishes the title "Madame de Fer". If she'd had white skin they would not have had to change one thing about her character for it to fit perfectly. Surely if you want to accuse a character of fitting a stereotype you have to take the motivations for their actions into consideration?

[cdizzle2k3]

Most of those "traits" would apply to Han Solo as well, I think.

 

Of course. By no means are those "traits" exclusive to any one type of person. The problem is that when apply them to demographic that doesn't have good representation(numerically)... If a negative stereotype gets continually applied to a race/gender/etc... that representation usually ends up becoming how real people perceive the real demographic...

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Without diving into politics... for the sake of making a real life parallel... One of his main talking points is to buckle down on ILLEGAL immigration, and he also mentioned mass deportation. You can rebut his points with all the logic in the world, but he won't back off partially because his elite personality. You can say that's similar to Viv and her pro-Circle views. I just mention Trump because he's a relevant person in the media that's known for being very elitist and stubborn.

 

Fixed it for you.

 

On topic, Vivienne is awesome. As other people have said, not sure what racial stereotypes she supposedly fits. Even the "sassy" thing. Since when was a cutting wit tied to skin color? Did I miss something?

[Kamon89]

To what stereotypes of black people are you referring? Also stereotypes according to what country or culture? A stereotype in one country doesn't necessarily exist in another.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

I dunno about the hate-on the OP is getting.  Seems very much overboard and knee-jerk.

 

Vivienne is very much the incarnation of an Uncle Tom "House N-----", or what is often called "High Yellow" amongst the black subculture in America.  So yes, she is a stereotype.  Maybe it's not the stereotype that many people immediately think of, but then again most Americans aren't even required to read Uncle Tom's Cabin anymore in schools.  She's a throwback in many ways to an older world.  Her mannerisms however are very much not the rural "Uncle Tom" but the more modern 'white-washed Oreo" that black subculture accusingly detests as sell-outs to the White Establishment.  Either way, she does fit a specific hated stereotype, just not one that White American recognize and disapprove of, but rather a negative stereotype that many actual Blacks in America immediately recognize and disapprove of.

[cdizzle2k3]

I dunno about the hate-on the OP is getting.  Seems very much overboard and knee-jerk.

 

Vivienne is very much the incarnation of an Uncle Tom "House N-----", or what is often called "High Yellow" amongst the black subculture in America.  So yes, she is a stereotype.  Maybe it's not the stereotype that many people immediately think of, but then again most Americans aren't even required to read Uncle Tom's Cabin anymore in schools.  She's a throwback in many ways to an older world.  Her mannerisms however are very much not the rural "Uncle Tom" but the more modern 'white-washed Oreo" that black subculture accusingly detests as sell-outs to the White Establishment.  Either way, she does fit a specific hated stereotype, just not one that White American recognize and disapprove of, but rather a negative stereotype that many actual Blacks in America immediately recognize and disapprove of.

 

I'd say if anything, she would be able to fit into the "House N-----" category. I personally despise the "oreo" classification, because I think it's an artificial stereotype that was made to pressure people into staying in their perceived stereotype. I personally have been considered an oreo(mainly by white people) because I wasn't "ghetto", I spoke "articulate", made good grades in school, etc... and apparently black people aren't supposed to do that... I'm half Asian, and people would tell me, "Oh that's your Asian half. But that's a rant for another day... lol

 

Back on topic, if you really think about it, Vivienne is almost a perfect definition of a "House N-----" since she adamantly defends the Chantry Circles which are known for restricting mage rights. 

 

In Bioware's defense though, I don't think this was their intent. I think they just wanted to make a diverse cast of characters. Like, if they would've made Sera white instead, that could've potentially been a stereotype as well...

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Vivienne is very much the incarnation of an Uncle Tom "House N-----", or what is often called "High Yellow" amongst the black subculture in America.

 

This is what I think people are getting at when they call Vivienne stereotypical, but I find that ridiculous, because Vivienne would arguably become an even more stereotypical character if they had made her a full-fledged "Freedom Fighter"-nonsense.

 

In the end, though, we are only having this discussion because she is black. Do we see Meredith as a stereotype for white people as oppressive, or do we just accept that this character happens to have ethnically anglican features and happens to have this role in the story?

 

More importantly, why do we even lend any legitimacy to racial stereotypes rather than accept that anyone can be anything?

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

In the end, though, we are only having this discussion because she is black. Do we see Meredith as a stereotype for white people as oppressive, or do we just accept that this character happens to have ethnically anglican features and happens to have this role in the story?

 

More importantly, why do we even lend any legitimacy to racial stereotypes rather than accept that anyone can be anything?

Well I dunno about you, but when I hear the House of Lords Queen's English that Merideth uses, it just screams out "EVIL!!!" because here in the states, we hear that and we know instinctively that anyone who talks like that is irredeemably wicked. 

 

Also it's part of real life psychology that the human brain processes certain stimuli and compares it to past experiences, both learned and societal.  So I'd venture to say that so long as the human brain and human society have prejudice and racial/cultural stereotypes, we as players will NEVER fully accept that anyone can be anything.  Specific nudges would need to be implemented to make a player accept an individual exception, such as language and demeanor changes, attractiveness and 'uncanny valley' style alterations to imply more 'cute' than realistic features.