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[Rekkampum]

As a carpet cleaner, I go into people's homes of all walks of life. 

 

Vivienne is the stereotypical upper-class lady who looks down on everyone who cannot benefit her personally and politician.

 

Darling, don't be mad that your ideas are not always "fantastic" like hers are!

[Maria Caliban]

Was Vivienne another very stereotypical black character?

No.

[Treacherous J Slither]

As someone pointed out earlier:

Vivienne is Emma Frost

But more of the White Queen version than the X-Men version.

Power hungry elitist social climber is the only stereotype she fits in my eyes.

[DragonNerd]

I know I shouldn't resurrect old threads, but some of the comments here bothered me. So after days of going "Nope, just ignore it!" I came back to say this. 

 

There is a difference between wanting every person of color in a video game to be positive and wanting SOME people of color to be positive. Black people don't want every black person to be sweet and nice. Black people want some positive represenation to balance out the overwhelming amount of offensive and damaging stereotypes that already exist in video games. 

 

Dragon Age Inquisition gave us Mother Giselle and Ser Barris, which was great. I didn't feel like either of them were portrayed as stereotypes. They weren't promiscuous thieves, criminals, liars, cheaters, stupid, or the usual stuff we see concerning people of color in video games. They had faults (Mother Giselle's prejudice against Tevinter for instance) but they were just freaking people. They were not gangsters or faceless background characters. And what was more, they had personalities, opinions, and ideas. They were a breath of fresh air. 

 

As for Vivienne, I wouldn't care about her being a **** if she was some background character I didn't have to deal with. But once you recruit her, she's in your face. And you can't make her leave (which would have been really satisfying after standing there listening to her degrade my Dalish elf about her culture). And I find it really difficult to find anything worthwhile in Vivienne. She is the sort of person I would hate in real life, so I hate her in the video game. And she was meant to be disliked, so good for the writers. Mission accomplished.

 

But what was even worse? Vivienne wasn't used to her full potential (nothing to contribute at the Orlesian ball? Really? No arguing with Morrigan or at least tearing down her outfit?). And even worse? She's a New Orleans Orlesian black mistress. It's like she walked straight out of history (the shadier part of history) as she is clearly in what looks like a placage. I'm not raging about it, but I find it annoying that she couldn't have had a better story. But then, I could say that about most of the followers in Inquisition. Only Cassandra, Varric, and Solas seem to be fully fleshed out, and that's because the first two have had two games now and Solas is the new big bad. 

 

I say all this about Vivienne and I say it with disappointment. I always try to find something good or at least entertaining in the wonderful, well-written characters that Bioware creates. Hell, I even made friends with Morrigan. In fact, I almost prefer Morrigan. At least when Morrigan was a ***** it entertained me. Vivienne tearing down my character's culture is not entertaining. Especially when just about everyone else in the game does it too. And especially when the Inquisitor just stands there like a mute boob and lets her do it. I mean . . . at least let me defend myself? You can't even tell Vivienne that freeing the mages doesn't mean letting them run amuck. But that's exactly what she accuses you of doing. You can't even say, "Well, I've recuited some templars and I'm rebuilding the Seekers."   

 

And having her as the first African American follower (Isabella's creator said she was based on Mediterranean people or something) only to have her be someone I just can't stand . . . yeah. Vivienne just disappointed me. 

 

People are allowed to be disappointed without being ridiculed as "wanting every black character to be nice."

[AtreiyaN7]

How is she stereotypical anything? She's intelligent, is well spoken, is certainly good at politics, and possesses a sharp, cutting wit. Is she the nicest person? No, but so what? Not everyone has to be nice - besides, I had fun with Viv on our spa day in Trespasser.

[Xilizhra]

I'd say that she's as stereotypical as Stephen from Django Unchained.

[Hazegurl]

You can be disappointed in Viv but calling her a black stereotype isn't really fair either.  If anything she's just upper class and looks down on those she deems are the "little people".   I also had problems with Viv as well as most of the follower interactions.  BW used to write good interactions where the fight was equal between the PC and follower but now BW wants every NPC to preach at any PC they don't get along with and as a result you are locked out of defending your actions, feelings, et al so that the npc can get their way.  It gets frustrating.  Viv is one of my favorites but even I would have liked an option to fully role play hating her and kicking her out of the Inquisition.  She makes one heck of a Divine though.

 

Gaider said Isabela is black so if you liked her then she would be your first black likable follower. But some could even say that she falls under the "Jezebel" stereotype.

[Lady Artifice]

Nothing about Vivienne is a mess, my dear, hot or otherwise. She's both immaculate and fabulous. 

[Xilizhra]

Nothing about Vivienne is a mess

Except for her morals, logic, and personal relationships.

[Lady Artifice]

Except for her morals, logic, and personal relationships.

 

Morals and logic are almost always relative to any Bioware character's experiences. They tend toward mutability. How are her personal relationships messy? They seem rather orderly and pragmatic to me.

[Xilizhra]

Morals and logic are almost always relative to any Bioware character's experiences. They tend toward mutability. How are her personal relationships messy? They seem rather orderly and pragmatic to me.

Perhaps more her ability to have personal relationships: I don't think she possesses it. She strikes me very much as a high-functioning sociopath; she can definitely fake them, but I've never gotten a sense of her being genuine about, well, almost anything except her ambitions.

[Lady Artifice]

Perhaps more her ability to have personal relationships: I don't think she possesses it. She strikes me very much as a high-functioning sociopath; she can definitely fake them, but I've never gotten a sense of her being genuine about, well, almost anything except her ambitions.

 

So, your point is that Vivienne is ruthless. Next you'll fill me in on how Sten is literal minded and how Isabela enjoys sex. 

 

I think we might be interpreting the word "messy" in different ways in this instance. 

[SmilesJA]

Perhaps more her ability to have personal relationships: I don't think she possesses it. She strikes me very much as a high-functioning sociopath; she can definitely fake them, but I've never gotten a sense of her being genuine about, well, almost anything except her ambitions.

 

Sociopathic? or it's an example of her being cunning? There's no evidence to suggest that she's a sociopath. Selfish? Yes, but not a high functioning sociopath as you put it.

[MaceWindusLightsaber]

I guess she's a bit of a jive turkey. LOL i'm joking, i don't think her being black makeups her attitude. Some humans are just very outspoken and snotty. 

[dragonflight288]

Sociopathic? or it's an example of her being cunning? There's no evidence to suggest that she's a sociopath. Selfish? Yes, but not a high functioning sociopath as you put it.

 

I don't see Fiona as Benedict Cumberbatch's performance of Sherlock Holmes. LOL.

 

Anderson: We all *sarcastically* loves to hear from our favorite psychopath.

 

Sherlock: I'm not a psychopath, I'm a high-functioning-sociopath. Do your research. 

[Jill Sheperd]

i don't get all this hate on vivienne and sera, i love them both, a companion don't have always to be friendly and funny to be cool .-. is obvious that vivienne have a aristocrathic personality because of the way she lived and how she grow up, the same is for sera but in the other way she is a idealist because of the way she lived .-.

[Fredward]

She's definitely not a black stereotype, no. I have srs trouble even understanding what that conclusion is based off of.

 

Liked her as a character too, ruthless ambition is always fun to watch.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Vivienne is many things but she's neither African nor American. She's Theodosian. Thedas has many incidences of oppression in its history but systematic discrimination of humans based on skin colour is not among them, so I don't see how you get to impose such real-world biases onto her.

[jedidotflow]

We wouldn't have this topic if Dragon Age (and video games in general) had more Black characters. Hopefully, going to Tevinter, which, based on Dorian, is not white (at last!), will help.

[jedidotflow]

Vivienne is many things but she's neither African nor American. She's Theodosian. Thedas has many incidences of oppression in its history but systematic discrimination of humans based on skin colour is not among them, so I don't see how you get to impose such real-world biases onto her.

 

I lol'd at the ridiculousness of this comment.

[YourFunnyUncle]

I lol'd at the ridiculousness of this comment.

Care to explain why? I'm all for greater representation in videogames, believe me, but when I see her referred to as "the first African American companion" I have to scratch my head.

Edit: Even if you want to take real-world issues into consideration in a fantasy universe, it's a massively US-centric term to use for a Canadian-developed game that is sold on the world market.

[Illegitimus]

Fixed it for you.

 

 

 

No you didn't.  He doesn't just want to clamp down on illegal imigration

[BSpud]

That reminds me of when someone once called Idris Elba African-American.  Oh mrka.

[YourFunnyUncle]

That reminds of when someone once called Idris Elba African-American.  Oh mrka.

Quite. And the sad thing is that black British actors like him end up having to go to the States to get roles, because apparently in the eyes of the world, black Brits don't exist, and the worldwide market doesn't want to see movies about them. Just more stuff about aristocrats and royals...

[dragonflight288]

i don't get all this hate on vivienne and sera, i love them both, a companion don't have always to be friendly and funny to be cool .-. is obvious that vivienne have a aristocrathic personality because of the way she lived and how she grow up, the same is for sera but in the other way she is a idealist because of the way she lived .-.

 

Let me put it this way from my perspective.

 

I don't outright hate either character, I think they bring a lot to the Inquisition and some very interesting perspectives. Vivienne provides an insight into the Circle's that otherwise has been lacking in previous games. Sera outright rejects the idea that elves are united as a single people, as Dalish and City Elves codexes in Origins alluded to, and provides a new perspective, from someone who sees everyone as people. 

 

What irks me about Vivienne is her high-born attitude and the social climber aspects of her personality and her absolute willingness to play the game in Orlais, a game I find absolutely disgusting in its utter disregard for the lives of others and all about politicking. In the Winter Palace, Cassandra shares my disgust for all the backroom deals secret murders and the forging of evidence and Vivienne writes it off as "just the game," something she herself plays so I'm sure she's engaged in that kind of behavior before. 

 

I strongly dislikes that she treats others with contempt if they cannot benefit her in some way, as she does to Blackwall in party banter. He tries nothing more than to be civil and she throws it back in his face. She only shows any level of admiration for him when she finds out he's a very good liar and was able to fool everyone as to his identity. 

 

But I respect her. It takes a certain level of gumption, intelligence, ruthless pragmatism and social skills to get as far as she has, and she turned a court posting that essentially was almost the court jester/entertainer and turned it into a position of very real political power. That is nothing to sneeze at.

 

What bugs me about Sera, despite really liking her when I first met her in the game, is how much she is willfully ignorant. She metaphorically puts her fingers in her ears and goes "la la la" on ANY topic that challenges her beliefs or makes her uncomfortable. And she doesn't even try to stand on any moral ground at all for her reasons, as she lives in the moment. She simply outright rejects things that challenge her beliefs or makes her uncomfortable, and dismisses any issues as the problem lying in other people and not in herself. 

 

It's a child-like and often childish view of the world that she maintains that drive players the wrong way about her. 

 

I still like Sera, but it irks me that she has no real desire or inclination to grow as a person.