361 réponses à ce sujet

[Rel Fexive]

So what I'm now reading here is
 

Whatever anyone says, however reasonable or well considered it may be, I will just ignore it and continue to spout bollocks.

Good to know.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

So what I'm now reading here is
 

Good to know.

I never said that. You just uncomfortable that I'm talking about race and if you're unconvinced of what I said fine by me.

[Catilina]

You do not talk. You declare.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

You do not talk. You declare.

I don't have to defend the truth it defends itself.

[Heimdall]

I think we've been trolled

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I think we've been trolled

That's right! I got a Bachelor's Degree of trolling with a capital T.

[mikeymoonshine]

There's a difference between a character that falls into some stereotypes and a character that is just a stereotype or a bunch of stereotypes. Vivienne could probably be placed into some of the stereotypes brought up in this thread but plenty of other characters in the game can also be reduced to stereotypes by people who seem to care about little else. What exactly would Vivienne have to be to not be an "angry black woman" for example? Cassandra is far angrier than Vivienne and Morrigan is every bit as antagonistic but they aren't "angry black women" because they are not black, so Vivienne should be restricted so as to not be seen at all close to that stereotype? 

 

Maybe not, maybe I don't get it because I don't really care about stereotypes unless that is all there is to a character. Like Dorian, he very obviously fits into a number of stereotypes about gay people Sera does as well actually but I really don't think stereotypes dominate them in any way. Plenty of real life people have personality traits that are considered stereotypical of some group they are a member of, and there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that. 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

There's a difference between a character that falls into some stereotypes and a character that is just a stereotype or a bunch of stereotypes. Vivienne could probably be placed into some of the stereotypes brought up in this thread but plenty of other characters in the game can also be reduced to stereotypes by people who seem to care about little else. What exactly would Vivienne have to be to not be an "angry black woman" for example? Cassandra is far angrier than Vivienne and Morrigan is every bit as antagonistic but they aren't "angry black women" because they are not black, so Vivienne should be restricted so as to not be seen at all close to that stereotype? 
 
Maybe not, maybe I don't get it because I don't really care about stereotypes unless that is all there is to a character. Like Dorian, he very obviously fits into a number of stereotypes about gay people Sera does as well actually but I really don't think stereotypes dominate them in any way. Plenty of real life people have personality traits that are considered stereotypical of some group they are a member of, and there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that.

But the thing is that with Vivienne her anger is subtle and to top it off too she has no emotions except when the Duke died, but she does fall into that specific stereotype of a Sapphire (look up sapphire stereotype to see it for yourself.) And she the only female character that has no background. What happened to her parents? Where is she born from? What happened to her that is so traumatic for her to hate herself as a mage? And I read reports from Reddit and watch youtube about Vivienne became divine was one of the worst decisions and I come up with a conclusion that they demonizing Vivienne for being a black woman with power.

[Catilina]

A lot of malicious writers ...

[mikeymoonshine]

But the thing is that with Vivienne her anger is subtle and to top it off too she has no emotions except when the Duke died, but she does fall into that specific stereotype of a Sapphire (look up sapphire stereotype to see it for yourself.) And she the only female character that has no background. What happened to her parents? Where is she born from? What happened to her that is so traumatic for her to hate herself as a mage? And I read reports from Reddit and watch youtube about Vivienne became divine was one of the worst decisions and I come up with a conclusion that they demonizing Vivienne for being a black woman with power.

 

She also shows emotion in her banter with Cole because he is able to get past the walls she puts up. I'm already somewhat familiar with the Sapphire stereotype, honestly I don't really see it but then I am no expert. Vivienne hasn't taken anyone else's role she's just improved her own, despite being authoritative she's not masculine, she is also very good at making connections and finding allies, isn't the Sapphire meant to be like the opposite of that? 

 

She's not actually the only female character with an unclear background either. We still don't actually know how Morrigan came to be for example (unless I missed something). Morrigan is just Flemeth's daughter and Vivienne is just from the circle, I am sure there is more to it than that and maybe in future we will find out but it's not exclusive to her. Sera is from Denerim and was at one point taken in by a human woman (or something) but her origin is also a mystery. 

 

I also wouldn't say Vivienne hates herself or mages, she just believes in the system for whatever reason. If she becomes divine mages actually gain a lot of political power. Of course though she is the one with the most power because she is not unselfish, she is totally in it for her own gain. I don't really see anything wrong with any of this though, maybe I am just not in a position to see it idk. 

[Rel Fexive]

@phantom: What about all the people whose own opinions make her the best Divine of the three? Is that feeding into these stereotypes too? What about people who don't find her to be angry, or have examples of her having jokey lines, or who are happy with "raised in a Circle" as being sufficient background? I mean, it's not like the mage Warden had much more background story than that. And does she really hate herself for being a mage? She seems to revel in it from what I've seen of her.

[lynroy]

I don't know why I'm bothering here...

Vivienne has a background, you can find out about it if you play the game. She was born in the Free Marches and her parents were merchants from Rivain. She's taken to the circle at a young age, like most mages are, so grows up in the Circle. Viv adheres to the Chantry view of mages being dangerous to themselves and others, and need Templars for their protection and others. She didn't like it when the mages rebelled and wants to restore the circles and templars to how they were. You can ask her about all this in the game. 

 

 And I read reports from Reddit and watch youtube about Vivienne became divine was one of the worst decisions and I come up with a conclusion that they demonizing Vivienne for being a black woman with power.

This is just ridiculous. It has nothing to do with her 'being a black woman with power', it's her actions as Divine that people don't like. I mean, Cassandra even leaves her service because she's disgusted with her. Trespasser epilogue: "However, [Cassandra] eventually grew disgusted by Vivienne - who she felt was perverting the Chant of Light's intent - and left the council."

And not everyone thinks having Viv become Divine to be the worst thing. There are those who like having her on the Sunburst Throne.

[YourFunnyUncle]

The key point about Vivienne as Divine is that she's a manipulating self-serving social climber in power, not the colour of her skin. And I can't see any hint of self-loathing because of her magical skills. She does in one conversation acknowledge that as a mage she should be treated as a danger, because it serves the point that she's making that all mages could conceivably become abominations. Beyond that I can't recall of a single time where she doesn't revel in her own magical talent. I mean look at her introduction, where she snap-freezes a man for effect as part of her grand entrance into the party. That's not a woman who's uncomfortable with who she is.

[Lazarillo]

And I can't see any hint of self-loathing because of her magical skills. She does in one conversation acknowledge that as a mage she should be treated as a danger, because it serves the point that she's making that all mages could conceivably become abominations. Beyond that I can't recall of a single time where she doesn't revel in her own magical talent.

I think the trick is that people see Vivienne's proposals that Mages should be kept down, and think that that means she also thinks there's something wrong with herself. That misses her true motive, though. Vivienne does want Mages as a group to be oppressed, because if they are oppressed as a group, but she, specifically, is not, then they are forced to rely on her.

Vivienne cares about nothing other than personal power. She wouldn't hate unless there's some benefit to it. But for her position, there's a lot of benefit to hating Mages.

[In Exile]

I think the trick is that people see Vivienne's proposals that Mages should be kept down, and think that that means she also thinks there's something wrong with herself. That misses her true motive, though. Vivienne does want Mages as a group to be oppressed, because if they are oppressed as a group, but she, specifically, is not, then they are forced to rely on her.

Vivienne cares about nothing other than personal power. She wouldn't hate unless there's some benefit to it. But for her position, there's a lot of benefit to hating Mages.

 

It's more nuanced. Vivenne has sacrificed a lot and gone to great strides to benefit form the current power structure. It's not that she is pro-mage oppression, so much as she is pro-current power structure, because she ultimately is a part of that power structure, and has made it work for herself, and has become so completely distanced from everything mages experience. Like her calling Mages malcontents - what happened after Kirkwall in the Circles makes a lot of IRL police states look like pretty pleasant places to live; we're talking the templars criminalizing social gatherings of mages in the Circles, apparently. But Vivenne doesn't live that - she just has to deal with the mundane perception of the mages actions. 

[mikeymoonshine]

Understanding Vivienne's motivations is difficult because they are not made clear, I think she does actually care about mages though. If you listen to some of the things she says about what happened to mages who did not agree with the rebels, it seems like a lot of the loyalists were killed in the conflict. 

 

Her banter with Cole is the most interesting because he can get at how she actually feels, there is one memory Cole digs out of her finding the burned body of a mage who was supposedly killed by rebels. The fact that was on her mind at all shows that it does affect her. It also explains why she hates the rebels so passionately, she feels they are responsible for the deaths of innocent people, many of whom she probably was close with. That said they are also a threat to the place of power she has so all the more reason for her to hate them. 

 

She's also terrified of demons so the idea of not having safeguards probably also terrifies her. My best guess is that she truly believes that mages need to be in circles and everything she has seen only confirms that stance. She also knows that she loses a lot if not all of her political power without that system though and she does not want that. 

[straykat]

You do not talk. You declare.

 

Gotta hand it to him though. He's not budging even against overwhelming disagreement.

 

I can admire obstinance of this level. I would have broke by now.

[AlanC9]

If we have to look up a stereotype, it's not much of a stereotype, is it? (You can always spot people frantically scanning Wikipedia for some sort of evidence to support their feelings.)

Though this is an interesting lesson in the way stereotypes operate. N7Phantom's internalized them to such an extent that he's forcing Viv into one even though she doesn't fit it at all. This happens ITRW with actual black people, so I guess this is better.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Can you guys bear with me? Ok let's go back a bit. When you talk to Vivienne about who's going to be Divine for the Sunburst Throne and when you ask her if what she will do if she's Divine, she tells you that she will kill mages if they refuse to go back to the Circle of Magi and the ending said that she ruled with an iron fist upon mages and it shows that it will be unrest and chaos when she took the throne, she there to keep the status quo by oppressing all mages, she's just a black version of Knight-Commander Meredith. Even Cassandra calls Vivienne a tyrant @ Trespasser DLC.

Decode/Translation: She also symbooizes a House slave stereotype: a black person's job is to keeps the status quo of oppressing black people. A house slave has a place of power with the slave master, and it's the house slave's job is to keep slaves in their place and if slaves get out of hand with the house slave showing any kind of resistance or overhears an attempt to escape, the house slave tells the slave owner to get the slaves in deep trouble. Look up the movie Django Unchained (Steven) and The Last King of Scotland (Idi Amin) that symbolizes a house slave and a corrupted black person turns into a black tyrant. And how Vivienne fits perfectly into those categories.

And what YourFunnyUncle mentioned that Vivienne is an elitest and that is true she's actually a black elitist a black elitest is an upper-class black person who's an opportunist that seeks power and benefits only for themselves disregard of suffering of black people.

Spoiler

Just like Vivienne want to gain power for her own benefits and the main reason why that she joined the Inquisition as an opportunity to gain political power. And will step on everyone who opposes her where she's finally reach absolute power and all hell will break loose.

[Catilina]

So what? Yes. Vivienne a bloody templar. And? A bloody black templar? Its good. Anyway, I started already getting bored the red ones.

 

(slave --> tyrant ... believe me, black or white, one is like the other. [Vivienne does not belong to this category])

 

[malloc]

Viv is my favorite character.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Can you guys bear with me? Ok let's go back a bit. When you talk to Vivienne about who's going to be Divine for the Sunburst Throne and when you ask her if what she will do if she's Divine, she tells you that she will kill mages if they refuse to go back to the Circle of Magi and the ending said that she ruled with an iron fist upon mages and it shows that it will be unrest and chaos when she took the throne, she there to keep the status quo by oppressing all mages, she's just a black version of Knight-Commander Meredith. Even Cassandra calls Vivienne a tyrant @ Trespasser DLC.

Decode/Translation: She also symbooizes a House slave stereotype: a black person's job is to keeps the status quo of oppressing black people. A house slave has a place of power with the slave master, and it's the house slave's job is to keep slaves in their place and if slaves get out of hand with the house slave showing any kind of resistance or overhears an attempt to escape, the house slave tells the slave owner to get the slaves in deep trouble. Look up the movie Django Unchained (Steven) and The Last King of Scotland (Idi Amin) that symbolizes a house slave and a corrupted black person turns into a black tyrant. And how Vivienne fits perfectly into those categories.

And what YourFunnyUncle mentioned that Vivienne is an elitest and that is true she's actually a black elitist a black elitest is an upper-class black person who's an opportunist that seeks power and benefits only for themselves disregard of suffering of black people.

Spoiler

Just like Vivienne want to gain power for her own benefits and the main reason why that she joined the Inquisition as an opportunity to gain political power. And will step on everyone who opposes her where she's finally reach absolute power and all hell will break loose.

 

This makes more sense than your previous arguments. She certainly is someone who works within the existing power structure and isn't afraid to crush resistance from "her own kind" to keep power for herself, but still I hesitate to apply your specific stereotypes to her.

 

Everything you mention is a US-centric version of struggles which have existed between those groups with power and those they oppress since time immemorial. Certain members of oppressed groups will try to game the system to their own advantage at the expense of others in their own group. Such problems have existed throughout time and across continents, often between groups of people who look outwardly similar. None of it is specific to black people if you look beyond recent US history. 

 

Also of note is that even when we first meet her, she has way more power than any "house slave" could dream of. Could you Imagine Samuel L Jackson's character in Django Unchained  hosting a party full of white slave-owners as an equal, and then threatening to kill one of them as part of his grand entrance to the soiree? If she becomes divine, she has power over everyone in Southern Thedas, not just mages.

 

Finally, and I think most importantly, any societal prejudice that Vivienne experiences is because she's a mage and not because she's black. Racism in Thedas happens between species, not humans. You could give her whatever skin-tone and facial features you liked and she'd face the exact same problems.

[mikeymoonshine]

and the ending said that she ruled with an iron fist upon mages and it shows that it will be unrest and chaos when she took the throne,

 

It says no such thing, it says she reinstates the circle and that "mages rise quickly in the new circle having more freedom and responsibility than ever before".  There is unrest and chaos because she is a mage and some people have a problem with a mage as Divine. 

 

Spoiler

She even allows the college of enchanters to exist separately from the circle, although it seems like that might result in conflict at some point.

 

I'm not saying she's not a tyrant but she certainly isn't anything like Meredith. 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

If we have to look up a stereotype, it's not much of a stereotype, is it? (You can always spot people frantically scanning Wikipedia for some sort of evidence to support their feelings.)
Though this is an interesting lesson in the way stereotypes operate. N7Phantom's internalized them to such an extent that he's forcing Viv into one even though she doesn't fit it at all. This happens ITRW with actual black people, so I guess this is better.

As I said you don't have to believe me. Go see it for yourself.

[mikeymoonshine]

Racism in Thedas happens between species, not humans. You could give her whatever skin-tone and facial features you liked and she'd face the exact same problems.

 

I'm not sure about that to be honest, obviously it's more of an issue between species but the whole reason why she set that guy up in her recruitment quest was because he mocked her relationship and made a racist comment about her. 

 

Spoiler

Cole: Stepping into the parlor, hem of my gown snagged, no, adjust before I go in, must look perfect.
Vivienne: My dear, your pet is speaking again. Do silence it.
Cole: Voices inside. Marquis Alphonse.
Cole: "I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her. But then, she must disappear in the dark."
Cole: Gown tight between my fingers, cold all over. Unacceptable. Wheels turn, strings pull.
Cole: He hurt you. You left a letter, let out a lie so he would do something foolish against the Inquisition. A trap.
Vivienne: Inquisitor, as your demon lacks manners, perhaps you could get Solas to train it.