361 réponses à ce sujet

[YourFunnyUncle]

 

I'm not sure about that to be honest, obviously it's more of an issue between species but the whole reason why she set that guy up in her recruitment quest was because he mocked her relationship and made a racist comment about her. 

 

Spoiler

Cole: Stepping into the parlor, hem of my gown snagged, no, adjust before I go in, must look perfect.
Vivienne: My dear, your pet is speaking again. Do silence it.
Cole: Voices inside. Marquis Alphonse.
Cole: "I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her. But then, she must disappear in the dark."
Cole: Gown tight between my fingers, cold all over. Unacceptable. Wheels turn, strings pull.
Cole: He hurt you. You left a letter, let out a lie so he would do something foolish against the Inquisition. A trap.
Vivienne: Inquisitor, as your demon lacks manners, perhaps you could get Solas to train it.

 

Yeah, I can't deny that's there. I wish they'd replaced it with some joke about Bastien needing fire-retardant breeches in case she conjures an accidental fireball at orgasm or something, because it's the only example of such racism that we've seen in three games, and it seems jarringly out of place. Even taken at face value, though, it pales in comparison to what an Elf or Qunari hears within about five minutes at the Winter Palace. Certainly there is no history yet revealed of systematic oppression and subjugation of humans based on their skin colour in Thedas.

[mikeymoonshine]

Yeah, I can't deny that's there. I wish they'd replaced it with some joke about Bastien needing fire-retardant breeches in case she conjures an accidental fireball at orgasm or something, because it's the only example of such racism that we've seen in three games, and it seems jarringly out of place. Even taken at face value, though, it pales in comparison to what an Elf or Qunari hears within about five minutes at the Winter Palace. Certainly there is no history yet revealed of systematic oppression and subjugation of humans based on their skin colour in Thedas.

 

Oh I agree, there doesn't seem to be any of that kind of systematic oppression in Thedas. I also found it a bit out of place.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

It says no such thing, it says she reinstates the circle and that "mages rise quickly in the new circle having more freedom and responsibility than ever before".  There is unrest and chaos because she is a mage and some people have a problem with a mage as Divine. 
 

Spoiler

She even allows the college of enchanters to exist separately from the circle, although it seems like that might result in conflict at some point.

 
I'm not saying she's not a tyrant but she certainly isn't anything like Meredith.

My theory is she will become like Meredith in the long run as long as the status quo is maintained to have mages locked up by force and kill the mages who don't want to be part of a broken system which is a prelude of a tyrant. (And she tells you what she is going to kill mages who opposes her) And in time the mages will rebel again and she will kill the mages to set as an example not to **** with her and the war will begin again because of her actions. And I wondered why Cass calls Vivienne a tyrant so why a black woman has to be a tyrant when she rises to power? That rubs me as suspicious.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Wasn't the OP the same poster who wanted her as a romance? Or was that someone else?

 

Have they gone 180 into dislike of the character now?

Well, apparently her not being a romance is a stereotype too. At least that is what they have argued in the past. 

[EmissaryofLies]

A 'hot mess which remind you of Jacob'...How and in what way? As far as writing, she blows Jacob out of the water. Character wise she's as far from a black stereotype as you can get, if you discount the straw grasping Uncle Tom narrative. Not sure what you mean by "very stereotypical" in Vivienne's case, but if you want to talk stereotypes the Mass Effect fans who romanced Jacob can tell you all about them. 

[Lady Artifice]

My theory is she will become like Meredith in the long run as long as the status quo is maintained to have mages locked up by force and kill the mages who don't want to be part of a broken system which is a prelude of a tyrant. (And she tells you what she is going to kill mages who opposes her) And in time the mages will rebel again and she will kill the mages to set as an example not to **** with her and the war will begin again because of her actions. And I wondered why Cass calls Vivienne a tyrant so why a black woman has to be a tyrant when she rises to power? That rubs me as suspicious.

 

No parallel is ever drawn or implied between Vivienne's skin color and her politics as divine. She's not "a black woman who has to be a tyrant." She's Vivienne, distinct and individual. Bioware has written a couple of black characters in positions of power, including Admiral Anderson, and Mother Giselle. They're usually presented as some of the most reasonable authority figures in their perspective universes. Vivienne in particular is one of the most politically complex characters Bioware has ever presented. It's completely unfair to interpret that as a case of unfortunate implications. 

 

For the record, what flaws do you think writers can be allowed to give fictional black characters without creating a stereotype? 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

No parallel is ever drawn or implied between Vivienne's skin color and her politics as divine. She's not "a black woman who has to be a tyrant." She's Vivienne, distinct and individual. Bioware has written a couple of black characters in positions of power, including Admiral Anderson, and Mother Giselle. They're usually presented as some of the most reasonable authority figures in their perspective universes. Vivienne in particular is one of the most politically complex characters Bioware has ever presented, and yet you interpret every one of her qualities as a case of unfortunate implications.

For the record, what flaws do you think writers can be allowed to give fictional black characters without creating a stereotype?

That is a very good question! and my answer is simple: Just write them like people with flaws. For example the Walking Dead game main character is Lee Everett they did an amazing job writing him as a hero and a natural leader without stereotyping him. He was about to head to prison for killing a politician for having an affair with his wife, after he got out the car and found Clementine he wanted to protect her till she finds her parents, he seeks to atone for what he did by looking out for her and the group he was with. That is a good example of a flaw that doesn't have any racial stereotype whatsoever.

Modifié par N7Phantom, 04 avril 2016 - 04:18 .

[Dean_the_Young]

That is a very good question! and my answer is simple: Just write them like people. For example the Walking Dead game main character is Lee Everett they did an amazing job writing him as a hero and a natural leader without stereotyping him. And I like how Ubisoft writes their black characters without racial stereotypes.

 

People fall into stereotypes and tropes. Your answer is a non-answer.

 

So, poor dodge aside, I'm curious to- what sort of flaws are you willing to accept without deeming someone a stereotype?

[straykat]

People fall into stereotypes and tropes.

 

Not me!

 

I'm Asian, but not great at math.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

People fall into stereotypes and tropes. Your answer is a non-answer.
 
So, poor dodge aside, I'm curious to- what sort of flaws are you willing to accept without deeming someone a stereotype?

I edited my post. My mistake.

[Lady Artifice]

That is a very good question! and my answer is simple: Just write them like people. For example the Walking Dead game main character is Lee Everett they did an amazing job writing him as a hero and a natural leader without stereotyping him. And I like how Ubisoft writes their black characters without racial stereotypes.

 

 

You didn't name a flaw, you named a virtue. I'm glad you approved of my question. I only wish that you approved enough to actually answer it.  

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

You didn't name a flaw, you named a virtue. I'm glad you approved of my question. I only wish that you approved enough to actually answer it.

I edited my post.

[Colonelkillabee]

If being sassy and badass is what you mean by "stereotypical" then for once, I'm glad she was.

 

I sure don't want her being submissive and weak, which seems to get less complaints in character of colored characters.

 

Vivienne is the ****, because she gets that templars are a necessity despite what her mageling counterparts might say. And when people get uppidy for a mage being the divine, she just curb stomped their asses and moved on. I'm very proud that this is synonymous with being stereotypical and black. Keep it up, but with more characters in general.

[Lady Artifice]

I edited my post.

 

 

I see your edit, but I don't still don't see any flaws listed. Since I'm unfamiliar with the character you mentioned, perhaps you could elaborate on what flaw you believe the character exhibited in that situation? 

[straykat]

I only wish she had played a bigger role..She's fine as she is. Or rather, I wish there had been more things about mage/templars and snooty Orlesian politics. They promoted her early on, but somehow everything became about Solas, as far as mage companions go.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I see your edit, but I don't still don't see any flaws listed. Since I'm unfamiliar with the character you mentioned, perhaps you could elaborate on what flaw you believe the character exhibited in that situation?

Hopefully wikipedia will explain it better for a black character like Lee Everett with flaws without adding a racial stereotype.
https://en.m.wikiped...ki/Lee_Everett#

Ok. Take a look @ Michonne from the Walking Dead T.V. series she suffers from post traumatic stress because she lost her son who has been devoured by walkers and her boyfriend didn't watch the baby, that explains why that she's hardened, tough, and an angry black woman in a post-apocalyptic world she's living in. She's always combative and hostile and trusts no one but then again she has to be. I think she's a well written character far better than Vivienne.

And there's Derek Morgan from Criminal Minds. He's started off as a bad kid because he lost his father who was murdered, growing up without a father he got into gangs and start running the streets until he got caught by the police and was in and out of Juvinille. And a man named Carl Buford who was his football coach is Morgan's role model and a father figure who inspired him of being a man but it all ended when he was sexually abusing him and it made it worse that it drive him to be a arrogant, hot-headed, prickish additude, overprotective, and self-righteous when he becomes an FBI agent. He seems like a bit of a ****** and I didn't like him because of it but when I saw an episode of him visiting his Family in Chicago that explains why he's that way by confronting Carl Buford for molesting children and killing them I understood why he's that way and I misjudged him. They can start off with that type of writing to have flaws without adding racial stereotypes. And have back stories of black characters.

Modifié par N7Phantom, 04 avril 2016 - 05:47 .

[straykat]

You could have a whole show or ensemble story with black actors, and one could be very cold and arrogant like Vivienne. Would she still be considered "stereotypical"? No. She'd just be the cold and arrogant character.

 

And that's all she is here.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

You could have a whole show or ensemble story with black actors, and one could be very cold and arrogant like Vivienne. Would she still be considered "stereotypical"? No. She'd just be the cold and arrogant character.
 
And that's all she is here.

But she is a stereotype.

Black woman + b***ch, sassy, bad additude, hostile= Sapphire.

[Dean_the_Young]

But she is a stereotype.

Black woman + b***ch, sassy, bad additude, hostile= Sapphire.

 

That's a trope, not merely a stereotype. Lee Everett has plenty of the same.

 

Seriously, you're going by that but you chose a black man who murdered the man who slept with his wife in a jealous rage as a non-stereotype black character? Because 'black man, murder, and homicidal jealousy' is definitely a racially-tinged stereotype in parts of the US.

 

Angry aggressive black woman Michone? Stereotypical with backstory to justify the stereotype (which doesn't reduce the stereotype).

 

And Derek Morgan? You chose Derek Morgan as a stereotype-free person? Let's count the American black stereotype tropes involved- raised by mother, youth gangs and crime, played football, and that's just the backstory.

[straykat]

But she is a stereotype.

Black woman + b***ch, sassy, bad additude, hostile= Sapphire.

 

What is Sapphire?

 

I don't know, dude. Morrigan has all the same traits... and is white. Besides the opposite sides of the war, and Vivienne's cool hat, they're basically similar characters.

[YourFunnyUncle]

What is Sapphire?

He posted some links here. See if you can do any better making Vivienne fit them than I can...

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

That's a trope, not merely a stereotype. Lee Everett has plenty of the same.

Seriously, you're going by that but you chose a black man who murdered the man who slept with his wife in a jealous rage as a non-stereotype black character? Because 'black man, murder, and homicidal jealousy' is definitely a racially-tinged stereotype in parts of the US.

Lee did killed a man but he emerged as a hero of the story and he loved Clementine and will do anything for her and his character has no stereotypical traits at all. Morgan is far from a stereotype as a black man can be. He's a good guy and his heart is in the right place by helping people. He started off bad, but all that he been through made him stronger as a black man not lesser. But it still doesn't change the fact that Vivienne is all rights and purposes is a sapphire stereotype.

[straykat]

He posted some links here. See if you can do any better making Vivienne fit them than I can...

 

Looks TLDR.

 

Not off to a good start with a stereotype. I'm supposed to instantly recognize it.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

What is Sapphire?

I don't know, dude. Morrigan has all the same traits... and is white. Besides the opposite sides of the war, and Vivienne's cool hat, they're basically similar characters.

https://en.m.wikiped...gry_Black_Woman

[Lady Artifice]

You keep trying to explain what "angry black woman is." We understand what it is. Vivienne just doesn't fit it, in any sense, at all.