29 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Greetings. I would like to discuss the fact that in Tevinter, there does not seem to be any sign that abominations are possessions are a big issue.

 

I am by no means saying that Tevinter is magi heaven or that the Tevinter system is perfect for mages. For example, mages in Tevinter can end up being slaves or being tranquilized or being a victim of political scheming and what have you. There is still plenty of dangers associated with being a mage in Tevinter.

 

However, for some reason, Tevinter mages do not suffer from possession or abomination. When it comes to Theodosian magic, being possessed and turned into abomination is the biggest issue but somehow Tevinter, the land where magic is glorified, to the point of decadency and beyond, does not suffer this problem.

 

One would think a land that has social systems and norms that are corrupt and decadent would make the place a prime spot for rampant demonic possession and abominations ? Yet this either does not happen or happens so rarely and when it does happen, it is taken care of quickly. I have been going through in game Codex, World of Thedas and the Dragon Age novels and there are almost no mentions of possessions and abominations being an issue in Tevinter.

 

Even Tevinter mages who use blood magic and go berserk with it, figuratively speaking, don't get possessed by demons. Damn it, we even have Tevinter mages talking about spirits as if they are tools and they appear to be able to make spirits their b***hes, in a manner of speaking. Dorians says something along these lines. Erimond does not appear to be even remotely affected by demons despite him using blood magic and his proximity to demons. Danarius also did not appear to be possessed despite being a blood mage.

 

So my question is how do Tevinters make this possible ? How do they not get affected by possession and have abomination problems ? Is it because magic is so prevalent that even the lowliest of mages are well trained to defend themselves ? Or is it because of the environment where magic is accepted which results in lack of fear towards magic, which in turn contributes to the lack of possessions and abominations ? Or do the Tevinters know some form of Ancient Elven magic techniques that both prevent them from being possessed while being able to manipulate spirits and demons at their whim ?

 

I mean, Dorian in a banter with Solas talks about how Solas uses magical techniques which is only used by Tevinter mages, to which Solas replies that the technique is Elven, not Tevinter. Dorian also talks about the Orb, which he calls Somnaborium, or Vessel of Dreams, which some ancient magisters seem to possess to which Solas replies that ancient Tevinter took much of the Elves. Solas also mentions that Tevinter is built on the bones of Ancient Elves, and the Ancient Elves are known to be able to interact with spirits without much issue.

 

So what is it really ? Excellent education ? Lack of fear ? Knowledge of secret techniques ? Or all of them ?

 

Cheers and have a nice day.

[Reznore57]

They do suffer from possession etc...

Fenris talks about annuling circles in Tevinter because abominations etc...

There's also a number of codices about Tevinter mages going too far and turning into abominations.

 

But they probably have more efficient tool to deal with it.

The Lithany of Adralla (to break mind control , and sometimes catch a demon ) was written by a Tevinter mage.

I assume contrary to mage in the South , almost every mages in the north knows about it.

 

Also well they're not afraid of toying with demons .Danarius was invoking some all over the place...

Dorian is a necromancer etc...so they are probably more familliar with fade entities.

Most mages in Circles will see one demon up close during their Harrowing and if everything goes according to plan it should be the only one.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

They do suffer from possession etc...

Fenris talks about annuling circles in Tevinter because abominations etc...

There's also a number of codices about Tevinter mages going too far and turning into abominations.

 

But they probably have more efficient tool to deal with it.

The Lithany of Adralla (to break mind control , and sometimes catch a demon ) was written by a Tevinter mage.

I assume contrary to mage in the South , almost every mages in the north knows about it.

 

Also well they're not afraid of toying with demons .Danarius was invoking some all over the place...

Dorian is a necromancer etc...so they are probably more familliar with fade entities.

Most mages in Circles will see one demon up close during their Harrowing and if everything goes according to plan it should be the only one.

 

I forgot about our resident emo Elf. I have seen Codex entries about Tevinter Magisters using blood magic and going too far with it, never possessions. I suppose I should scour around more.

 

Anyway, the cases are far, far less compared to the South and they seem to be able to deal with it far more efficiently.

 

Does this mean Southern magic is inferior and inefficient compared to Tevinter magic ? I know Tevinter is the center of magic in Thedas for now, but I always thought that the South could at least measure up to them ? To use a real life comparison, is the Southern circles like some university whereas Tevinter circles are like Ivy League universities ?

[Reznore57]

I forgot about our resident emo Elf. I have seen Codex entries about Tevinter Magisters using blood magic and going too far with it, never possessions. I suppose I should scour around more.

 

Anyway, the cases are far, far less compared to the South and they seem to be able to deal with it far more efficiently.

 

Does this mean Southern magic is inferior and inefficient compared to Tevinter magic ? I know Tevinter is the center of magic in Thedas for now, but I always thought that the South could at least measure up to them ? To use a real life comparison, is the Southern circles like some university whereas Tevinter circles are like Ivy League universities ?

 

Thing is we don't know exactly what's up in Tevinter.

But again Fenris is kind of a pro for an elven slave bodyguard , even looking at Flemeth , he goes "You're no abomination blablabla".

So I doubt abomination are such a rare event.

 

And no as far as magic goes the South doesn't measure up , there's a lot of magical taboos with the Chantry...and mage research are limited.

For example , the Chantry in the south would turn a dreamer tranquil on the spot because they don't know how to deal with it.

In the north , well Feynriel was welcomed with open arms.

Same way Dorian and Alexius were studying Time magic , and Dorian is a necromancer etc...

 

Now I'm not sure the South is "inefficient" ...the policy about magic is just different.It's all about minimal risk.

In the north they do more things but well ...Cory and friends messed up big time.When they were studying the fade in Kirkwall it was a bloodbath.Alexius magic could have unravel the world.

In one of the comic , a magister wants to mind control the whole world and almost succeeded.

Fenris is also an example of Tevinter mages experimentation.

Oh and flying cows over Minrathous.Poor cows.

[Shienis]

Anyway, the cases are far, far less compared to the South and they seem to be able to deal with it far more efficiently.

 

And how do you know they indeed are less frequent? Because we didn't encounter any Tevinter abominations? Well, all the games' stories take place in the South, so it's natural, there will be more local threats. How many of the southern incidents we meet do you think the average Tevinter people will learn of? Or do you think The Vint Times inform about every case on both sides?

So, no, we really don't know if they have less or more frequent abomination incidents, because simply there's no internetz in Thedas.

 

On what I would agree is that they definitely have more advanced magical education, as they have more opportunities to experiment.

[thats1evildude]

Calanthus was a Tevinter magister who became an abomination so horrific that his apprentices reportedly tore out their eyes at the sight of him.

http://dragonage.wik...ble_Blood_Magic

That codex also mentions that the magisters who tried to map the Fade left themselves open to possession through the use of too much blood magic.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

And how do you know they indeed are less frequent? Because we didn't encounter any Tevinter abominations? Well, all the games' stories take place in the South, so it's natural, there will be more local threats. How many of the southern incidents we meet do you think the average Tevinter people will learn of? Or do you think The Vint Times inform about every case on both sides?

So, no, we really don't know if they have less or more frequent abomination incidents, because simply there's no internetz in Thedas.

 

On what I would agree is that they definitely have more advanced magical education, as they have more opportunities to experiment.

 

If Bioware wished to show that Tevinter is a truly decadent and dangerous place due to abominations and possessions being rampant, they would have done so, a long time ago, all the back in Dragon Age Origins.

 

Bioware could have even introduced this when they introduced the 3 magi rule with the Dalish Elves. However, they did not.

 

They could have also showed that abominations and possessions are a big problem and are frequent via Dorian, Iron Bull, Erasthenes, Calpernia, Alexius, Felix, Livius Erimond, Servius, etc. These are all people who have lived in Tevinter. But they did not.

 

Which means one can safely say that abominations and possessions are a rare in Tevinter and most definitely not a problem like it is in the South.

 

There could also be another reason. Tevinter society, for all its faults, simply tends to make more mentally stable mages.

 

To clarify, by this I mean mages there are not constantly told about how they're a threat to themselves and others and how easy it is for them to be utterly ruined - which in turn, makes your average mage there much more confident and generally filled with far less self-doubt to prey upon. Even the most determined and confident Circle-trained mage might be affected by all the fear he or she has been surrounded by - fear from others, and perhaps especially fear from themselves.

 

To quote Solas, "They've been locked in a tower and told they're monsters all their lives!". That is not something a mind, no matter how strong-willed, can benefit from. So when an average mage from Tevinter possibly faces off against a demon sometime during their life, they might just view it as another obstacle - whereas one trained by the Chantry sees it as face-to-face with the greatest horror imaginable, and the terror that induces probably isn't good for fending the fiend off.

 

Look at the difference in the demeanor of Vivienne and Dorian when they entered the Fade or when they encountered Blood Magic or when they were presented with Cole. Dorian is either accepting or curious or at worst, guarded. Vivienne treats all these as great horrific dangers.What's more, Dorian spoke of his magical test where he went into the Fade and he met a Desire Demon. He chatted with it without much fear and then took care of the demon when it tried to possess him. From the banters between Cole and Vivienne, we know that when Vivienne underwent her Harrowing, the experience was actually harrowing for her. Solas even  comments to Vivienne that "Of course. You endure the Harrowing. You have learnt your lessons all too well." There is also the fact that Solas, the Dread Wolf, has plenty of criticism to Vivienne's Southern Circle magical techniques, from her front-loading her Barriers to her lack of experience in staff energy modulation. On the other hand, Solas is either curious or spends his time nerding out magical techniques with Dorian, from magical nullification followed by Veil warping to Elven techniques mistaken for Tevinter techniques.

 

I see this as something that is quite similar to Colonial attitudes in the past. In the past, during Colonial period, you would have the imperialists look down upon the population they rule over, talk them down, make them out to be inferior. If you get subjected to this throughout your whole life, it was not surprising to see many people back in the Colonial days bowing down to their masters. Tell someone they are shite long enough and eventually, no matter how strong willed they are, they succumb, to different degree.

[Arshei]

The abominations and possesions are a lie. They are the parents.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Calanthus was a Tevinter magister who became an abomination so horrific that his apprentices reportedly tore out their eyes at the sight of him.

http://dragonage.wik...ble_Blood_Magic

That codex also mentions that the magisters who tried to map the Fade left themselves open to possession through the use of too much blood magic.

 

Like I said, it happens but it is quite rare. Left themselves open does not equate to being possessed.

 

That is like saying a veteran skydiver is leaving himself open to the risk of falling to death and this means they will be dead. Not saying Blood Magic is a good thing though.

[Afro_Explosion]

Abominations could be so common most aren't worth documenting.

[drosophila]

Magic mishaps probably happen less frequently there.

Firstly, their system is probably much better at educating mages on how to handle their power without harming themselves. Circles that focus on restrictions and punishment of missteps will end up redirecting resources away from actually developing magic that has more sway over spirits. You can think of it as two armies, one that tries to give each soldier the must dangerous weapon possible but provides thorough instructions how to use it, versus another in which the soldiers are given 'safer' weapons but are poorly trained.

Also, they've been practicing blood magic behind closed doors for a very long time, and blood mages are somehow more vulnerable to possession. This means they had the chance to make all the mistakes they would make long time ago and have learned from them. There's probably some off the record way to pass knowledge from mentor to apprentice about safe practices of blood magic.

Finally, the strongest families breed selectively to produce more powerful mages, while in the South it's undesirable to marry someone with magic in their line. The more powerful mages will have more control, even over very strong spirits/demons.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Magic mishaps probably happen less frequently there.

Firstly, their system is probably much better at educating mages on how to handle their power without harming themselves. Circles that focus on restrictions and punishment of missteps will end up redirecting resources away from actually developing magic that has more sway over spirits. You can think of it as two armies, one that tries to give each soldier the must dangerous weapon possible but provides thorough instructions how to use it, versus another in which the soldiers are given 'safer' weapons but are poorly trained.

Also, they've been practicing blood magic behind closed doors for a very long time, and blood mages are somehow more vulnerable to possession. This means they had the chance to make all the mistakes they would make long time ago and have learned from them. There's probably some off the record way to pass knowledge from mentor to apprentice about safe practices of blood magic.

Finally, the strongest families breed selectively to produce more powerful mages, while in the South it's undesirable to marry someone with magic in their line. The more powerful mages will have more control, even over very strong spirits/demons.

 

Good points.

[Kakistos_]

Abominations are rare in general though I doubt they are entirely unheard of given the interest of some Tevinter Mages. I imagine the reason that the reason we don't hear of many Abominations in Tevinter is because Tevinter Mages, who are the best educated Mages in the world, probably have learned through research and study how to mitigate the risks just like the similarly non-repressed Mages of the Avvar and Rivain.

[Dai Grepher]

In mighty Tevinter, mage possesses demon.

[leaguer of one]

They do suffer from possession etc...

Fenris talks about annuling circles in Tevinter because abominations etc...

There's also a number of codices about Tevinter mages going too far and turning into abominations.

 

But they probably have more efficient tool to deal with it.

The Lithany of Adralla (to break mind control , and sometimes catch a demon ) was written by a Tevinter mage.

I assume contrary to mage in the South , almost every mages in the north knows about it.

 

Also well they're not afraid of toying with demons .Danarius was invoking some all over the place...

Dorian is a necromancer etc...so they are probably more familliar with fade entities.

Most mages in Circles will see one demon up close during their Harrowing and if everything goes according to plan it should be the only one.

Dude, that's an annulment . That's an entire different point from what the op is talking about.

[leaguer of one]

Abominations could be so common most aren't worth documenting.

No....No....Try again.

[leaguer of one]

Calanthus was a Tevinter magister who became an abomination so horrific that his apprentices reportedly tore out their eyes at the sight of him.

http://dragonage.wik...ble_Blood_Magic

That codex also mentions that the magisters who tried to map the Fade left themselves open to possession through the use of too much blood magic.

No one is saying it does not happen. They are saying it does not happen at random.

[Master Warder Z_]

Abominations could be so common most aren't worth documenting.

Huh now that's a thought.

Given rampant blood magic and corruption its plausible

[Lumix19]

Abominations are rare in general though I doubt they are entirely unheard of given the interest of some Tevinter Mages. I imagine the reason that the reason we don't hear of many Abominations in Tevinter is because Tevinter Mages, who are the best educated Mages in the world, probably have learned through research and study how to mitigate the risks just like the similarly non-repressed Mages of the Avvar and Rivain.

Pretty much this I would imagine. They probably study demons extensively so they know what to summon, control and how to use them effectively. Possession probably comes more out of madness than anything else, like the "Ascended Man" example above and possibly the Scrolls of Banastor.

[Lumix19]

Huh now that's a thought.
Given rampant blood magic and corruption its plausible

I think Tarohne and her followers are a good example of what one might find in Tevinter, sure there's blood magic and demons but the mages practicing it know how to handle themselves. The danger is to everybody else.

[Merengues 1945]

I forgot about our resident emo Elf. I have seen Codex entries about Tevinter Magisters using blood magic and going too far with it, never possessions. I suppose I should scour around more.

 

Anyway, the cases are far, far less compared to the South and they seem to be able to deal with it far more efficiently.

 

Does this mean Southern magic is inferior and inefficient compared to Tevinter magic ? I know Tevinter is the center of magic in Thedas for now, but I always thought that the South could at least measure up to them ? To use a real life comparison, is the Southern circles like some university whereas Tevinter circles are like Ivy League universities ?

 

It's not that they're inefficient, simply they are tied by hands and feet by the Chantry and the templars.

 

Surely many tevinter mages have come to turn into abominations (seven of them turned into darkspawn if you remember), but since they have no surveillance by the chantry they have spent more time studying the fade and ways to prevent demonic possession while in the south the standard procedure is beheading by the templar order instead of trying something else beforehand.

 

The Avvar seem particularly proficient on releasing a body from possession and have an insanely close relation with spirits... They have become this proficient because there are no templars or chantry on the southern wilds.

[BloodKaiden]

The Chantry holds the Southern Mages in a vice. Tevinter imo has superior education and general badassness when it comes to magic.

[Reznore57]

Dude, that's an annulment . That's an entire different point from what the op is talking about.

 

Why would they annul a Circle in Tevinter in the first place , anyway?

Only rich important kids go there , they won't purge the whole thing because two apprentice do blood magic hiding in a corner.

So abominations running rampant is probably the only reason .

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The Chantry holds the Southern Mages in a vice. Tevinter imo has superior education and general badassness when it comes to magic.

 

Education. The southern Chantry only ever teaches mages to avoid demons at all cost while Tevinter sees them as useful tools and makes sure the next generation knows how to handle them.

 

It is similar to teaching abstinence only instead of safe sex practices and then acting all shocked when your kids turn up pregnant. snort

 

The Chantry does nothing to prepare its mages for demon encounters while "Dealing with Demons 101" is probably mandatory for mages in the Imperium.

[berelinde]

So far, the abominations we've seen have been southern mages with limited knowledge of blood magic and unlimited threat to their own life and limb. In other words, they are acting in the moment and don't have a plan. Maybe they're unaware of precautions to prevent possession or maybe they are simply too desperate to care. They're calling on demons because they do not have enough of their own spellpower. They make bargains with demons.

 

Dorian tells the Inquisitor that possession isn't automatic. "Using your own blood or that of a willing participant, what's the harm? But what if you need more? And you always need more. That's when we get into blood sacrifice and demon summoning."

 

It seems that the demons don't just kick down the door and set up housekeeping without an invitation. They must be summoned. And once they're summoned, they must be paid.

 

So, why are southern mages becoming abominations but not Tevinter mages? Blood sacrifice. The demon is still getting paid, but the person paying the price is not the mage casting the spell. Remember Maric? He spent the last years of his life as a blood mage's battery, a demon's thrall. That's why we aren't seeing Tevinter abominations. It isn't necessarily that Tevinter mages are better at magic or can use blood magic with impunity. It's just that they have slaves they can use to power their spells.

 

And it isn't always free. Erimond teaches Grey Warden mages to use blood magic to bind demons, but the mages are bound themselves. It seems this is a pecularity of Erimond's spell, because once Nightmare is defeated, the mages are freed. Interestingly enough, Grey Warden mages freed from Erimond's mind control seem to regain their sanity, Ser Ruth's self-flagellation notwithstanding.

 

Dorian is outraged over his father's plan not because (or not only because) his father didn't approve of his choices. He's shocked and terrified that Halward Pavus was willing to risk Dorian's sanity for the sake of appearances. In other words, the risk was always there.

 

And, like Calathus and like Uldred, there are always going to be some mages who are willing to give up their very identity for the sake of the power they get from the bargain. The game needs mage villains as much as it needs villains without magic.

 

If the game does shift to Tevinter, it will be interesting to see how different mages deal with blood magic.