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[Carys Arcana]

I've curiously glanced fan art about this before, but I always kept a fair bit of scepticism. I fully realised the latter after finally(!) getting round to the Citadel DLC, then reading some fanfiction that ignorantly extends from canon (not necessarily all fanfics - see conclusion). 'Problematic' would be a daft understatement; abusive, misogynistic and lesbian-demeaning are accurate terms, and I felt like pretentiously explaining. Some related Shep romance thoughts afterwards. By the way ~ I'm cis-female, pansexual and Welsh (British).

Back in ME2: Jack's personal history doesn't excuse her from confronting Miranda so terribly. Miranda could justifiably ignore the core issue, but that's cancelled by her defence of Cerberus; she then goes extremely further by victim-blaming, arrogantly, in calling Jack's self "a mistake". Kidnap from mother and years of torture* are equated to bad investment that Jack deserves blame for, let alone Cerberus' fault whatsoever. ..Needless to say, it's impossible to solve this in such a contrived sliver, but that route is completely blocked and spat on by being forced to either worthlessly damage in picking a side or effectively brush it off as "girls, handbags down!"..

*Impossible to dismiss at any level. Considering the total scope -- from ME1 (+ Sole-Survivor) through to Chronos after having not  helped Grissom -- it would be generous to just say there is absolutely no credibility to Pragia ever even having to "go rogue". That must have originally been intended as more pieces of Cerberus manipulation, but as it stands it's insultingly broken.

 

Appropriate handling of their respective progressions across games should have been utterly vital. Yet that's neglected (at best..), and despite Miranda supposedly overcoming the horrible mindset a large problem remains there. Ideally Miranda would have clearly, honestly apologised for that attitude, then Jack reciprocates, among very thorough narrative to even salvage reconciliation -first-. But that's not only un-realised; the situation is made worse..

 

In the pram, first served is a half-empty bottle of utterly degrading formula ("catfight"). After choosing a bib, later a spoon-feeding of rotten placebo.. Miranda says "I hate to say it, but" ......... "Cerberus were wrong about you" - merely on their opinion of Jack's future - that's mockery. "You've grown, despite what Cerberus did to you" doesn't connect that, cuts Jack/mother's ordeal to a vague remark, and Miranda's crucial "past" attitude is completely ignored. That's compounded by Miranda's one-sided exposition through Pragia and Jack's files, but it becomes even more damaging, to both women..

These women's very serious issues aren't 'just' ditched miles from anything remotely resembling thoughtful narrative; Miranda's
character is abused one way, whilst Jack's character and agency are obviously attacked. Finally it's all supposed to be laughed off as mere "sexual tension" - an extreme shoehorning of misogynistic fantasy, how lovely. Yeah it could be funny/positive in an entirely different context; here canon inconsistency (ME2-Citadel) reflects negatively, but reasonable doubt is obliterated in this female narrative massacre. So that wasn't complete without treating Lesbianism as a petty, fickle tool...hardly surprising, as that's still such a problem generally, unfortunately.

The aforementioned problem with Miranda's character (here, not elsewhere) is, well.. Those tainted, poor comments and her never plausibly condemning Cerberus are bad enough alone. Worse still is that her defensive demeanour, and even some nostalgia, for Cerberus occurs just after: their hunting/harassment of her, the blatant atrocities with her father etc., their at least tacit support of Oriana's kidnap (suspected direct involvement), the violent KL encounter, and fact that Cerberus generally always were and are now just more overtly about that same horrible mindset. Her now having selfish sympathy for Cerberus is...far beyond disgusting.

^ Miranda's ME2 growth regarding sister/father could've diminished partially her years of fierce fealty to Cerberus, yet that path is ignored and zealotry continues unabated (see: 2nd paragraph - that requires both loyalty missions, so can easily occur a few missions before last). Then that's so stupidly discarded, and her post-base comments are less credible than Ashley kissing a Turian. Had there been some gradual disillusionment from Cerberus the base argument could have realistically had her swerve or uneasily side with Shep and tell a properly, reveallingly disrespectful TIM to sod off. Then some far better dialogue back on the ship, with stronger ambivalence if base is kept, and -closure- by and in ME3. That doesn't just fail to happen, it's abused.

..So the “press X for friendship” bit is a dollop of astoundingly stupid icing on this rotten cake. Even if I'd skipped the first two games I still wouldn't take a bite of that. Jackanda fans are either somehow ignoring all that or are horrendously poor judges of writing. Any fanfic people who haven’t already re-created proper reconciliation, Lesbian narrative and Miranda/Cerberus closure, aren’t worthy of being considered writers. If you have made or considered those corrections, that’s fair enough so these comments aren’t aimed at you. But without that this pairing is less sensible than Ashley & Garrus eloping; I will always deem it very below that, as the damage is too much and really irreparable.

 

On Shep romance:

It's awful that FemShep+Jack was cut - shoddily and later teased. She'd be the best match to my paragade by a Tuchanka mile. I'd replace the cabin scene with most of Mondo47's (female) "Walking After You" piece here: (old BSN blog) or (screenshot). Elsewhere I've seen a few attempts to argue that MShep's gender affects her growth; that's nonsense and more disservice to her character. Progress is due to herself, either Shep's friendship and Grissom. Romance is earning further trust for her love, and largely it's done well (better than most romances really), but not completely. Crying fits her but one-dimensionally, "need someone" should be generalised, and leave it at the hug. Mondo's version fits/fleshes-out better. Of course, this woman is far more than that scene....let alone the abusive Jackanda rubbish.

Cheers.

[Vazgen]

I agree. Part of the reason why Miranda dies on the Collector Base in my game. Jack is my canon Shepard's romance option. Even without cabin scene, I feel it is much more fitting than any other. I simply roleplay that he remembers her when he looks in the stars after waking up.

[God]

Are you trying to ****** off the Miranda fans?

 

Because you're going to ****** off the Miranda fans. 

[Xen]

Are you trying to ****** off the Miranda fans?

 

Because you're going to ****** off the Miranda fans. 

and doing so is how you get entire forum sections nuked into oblivion. Two posts in and this one is already doing it rite.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Is God going to smite someone down again?

 

I'll go grab the popcorn.

[CrutchCricket]

Though it's possible I could use more sleep, does anyone else feel like the OP was disjointed and hard to follow? Like, what is this about? I don't really see a unified point and I can't be bothered to try so I'm just going to reply to some quotes, likely out of context.
 

Back in ME2: Jack's personal history doesn't excuse her from confronting Miranda so terribly. Miranda could justifiably ignore the core issue, but that's cancelled by her defence of Cerberus; she then goes extremely further by victim-blaming, arrogantly, in calling Jack's self "a mistake". Kidnap from mother and years of torture* are equated to bad investment that Jack deserves blame for, let alone Cerberus' fault whatsoever. ..

Look at the whole line.

"That wasn't Cerberus. Not really. But clearly, you were a mistake".

That's not victim blaming. That's just a straight up shot at Jack for acting as she does. It is "ignoring the core issue" as you say.
 

Needless to say, it's impossible to solve this in such a contrived sliver, but that route is completely blocked and spat on by being forced to either worthlessly damage in picking a side or effectively brush it off as "girls, handbags down!"..

There's also, "This is my ship, we have more important things to do and you're not going to tear it apart over this." Reasonable, given you really do have better things to do and you can't solve this "in a sliver" like you said. I will agree the damage if you pick a side is disproportionate and ridiculous, particularly from Miranda who should at least appreciate a little white lie to calm the lunatic down.
 

*Impossible to dismiss at any level. Considering the total scope -- from ME1 (+ Sole-Survivor) through to Chronos after having not helped Grissom -- it would be generous to just say there is absolutely no credibility to Pragia ever even having to "go rogue". That must have originally been intended as more pieces of Cerberus manipulation, but as it stands it's insultingly broken.

Actually there is. Like, so much credibility. There's a terminal right at the entrance that flat out has scientists talking about hiding stuff from TIM under the justification that he won't care once he sees results. And he probably wouldn't, if he did see results. But the fact is they were going off the rails, even by Cerberus standards.
 

Appropriate handling of their respective progressions across games should have been utterly vital. Yet that's neglected (at best..), and despite Miranda supposedly overcoming the horrible mindset a large problem remains there. Ideally Miranda would have clearly, honestly apologised for that attitude, then Jack reciprocates, among very thorough narrative to even salvage reconciliation -first-. But that's not only un-realised; the situation is made worse..

You're right, this did deserve more treatment, but you can blame the ME2 sidelining for that. But no, Miranda doesn't have to apologize for ****. She wasn't in charge of Pragia, she barely knew about it (2IC retcon be damned). Why should she? Because she's a convenient Cerberus figurehead? That's why Jack went off on her to begin with. And that's not good enough. Miranda should've reflected (and perhaps atoned) on Cerberus in a general sense, with the atonement only really applying to things she directly influenced. But expecting her to bend over backwards for everyone Cerberus slighted, regardless of whether she had anything to do with it isn't justice. It's vindication, and vengeance.
 

In the pram, first served is a half-empty bottle of utterly degrading formula ("catfight"). After choosing a bib, later a spoon-feeding of rotten placebo.. Miranda says "I hate to say it, but" ......... "Cerberus were wrong about you" - merely on their opinion of Jack's future - that's mockery. "You've grown, despite what Cerberus did to you" doesn't connect that, cuts Jack/mother's ordeal to a vague remark, and Miranda's crucial "past" attitude is completely ignored. That's compounded by Miranda's one-sided exposition through Pragia and Jack's files, but it becomes even more damaging, to both women..

Did anyone call it a catfight ingame? Maybe Joker, but Joker's gonna Joker. Not really sure what you're on about with the rest of this but you need to explain/examine the context of your first quote (can't recall it right now to help you). The second quote is perfectly adequate, it acknowledges Jack's achievements and conquering of her adversity. Nothing else is needed, certainly not atonement as it wasn't her fault.
 

Finally it's all supposed to be laughed off as mere "sexual tension" - an extreme shoehorning of misogynistic fantasy, how lovely. Yeah it could be funny/positive in an entirely different context; here canon inconsistency (ME2-Citadel) reflects negatively, but reasonable doubt is obliterated in this female narrative massacre. So that wasn't complete without treating Lesbianism as a petty, fickle tool...hardly surprising, as that's still such a problem generally, unfortunately.

It's a lighthearted party in a joke fanservice DLC. Loosen up. Their issues could've used more exploring but expecting to get that in a cheesy, feelgood farewell DLC is inane.
 

The aforementioned problem with Miranda's character (here, not elsewhere) is, well.. Those tainted, poor comments and her never plausibly condemning Cerberus are bad enough alone. Worse still is that her defensive demeanour, and even some nostalgia, for Cerberus occurs just after: their hunting/harassment of her, the blatant atrocities with her father etc., their at least tacit support of Oriana's kidnap (suspected direct involvement), the violent KL encounter, and fact that Cerberus generally always were and are now just more overtly about that same horrible mindset. Her now having selfish sympathy for Cerberus is...far beyond disgusting.

wat


Actually that's my response to the rest of it since you seem to go off on Miranda/Jack ship fanfics which... what do you want us to do about? It's the internet, everything is shipped with everything.  There's a reason I don't read a lot of ME (or any other) fanfiction.

[Vanilka]

Personally, I like both Miranda and Jack and think they're both great characters. Although, of course, they could still use some work here and there like most. And I've always taken the Support Friendship thing in the Citadel DLC as a silly joke to break their constant bickering because there's no way in hell I can imagine those two together. Maybe just for a really, really drunk one-night stand... You know what? Scratch that. I mean, I don't really like the joke because it's pretty dumb and I just don't feel any chemistry between them at all, but I guess it helps that I've never thought Shepard was actually serious (which is, of course, a matter for a discussion).

 

Either way, I'd say that Miranda's and Jack's reactions to Shepard's stupid angry-lesbian-make-up-sex joke are very appropriate. Basically, their reaction is, "You are sh★tting me!" or something along those lines and, in my opinion, it sort of negates the dumb joke. It's the characters, themselves, telling the audience to sod off with that attitude and finally finding themselves in agreement thanks to that. While I facepalmed together with them, I was happy to see them finding common ground and finally calming down and actually talking somewhat nice to each other. The joke was dumb, sure, but it started something great, which makes me more forgiving about it, I think. Despite what the audience might want, Jack and Miranda disagree and they disagree strongly. So now we know the characters' opinions and that has a lot of weight, imho. Whatever sexist, misogynistic, whatever comment Shepard might make, Miranda and Jack make it clear that they seem to find it absurd and ridiculous and perhaps even offensive. The thing is, the game could've shown us Miranda and Jack all drunk and cuddling together to cater to the fantasies we might have about them, but it didn't. They decided to have the characters say, "Hell, no! WTF, Shepard?!" instead. That says something, I think.
 

As for ME2, while I would totally welcome some more character growth and more mature treatment in some places, I think that it's good these characters have flaws. Flaws are a big part of every great character. Lack thereof makes a Mary Sue. And nobody likes Mary Sues. Miranda can be a hard woman, given how she snaps at Joker for not having saved the ship's crew somehow. (How was he supposed to do that when a bunch of armed guys couldn't protect themselves?) I've always seen that stemming from her relationship with her father. He expected nothing but perfection from her and held her to very high standards, so it's not surprising that she's mad with people when she feels they didn't give it all they've got. Her being used to doing everything properly may also be a reason why she doesn't like Jack right from the start because Jack is somebody who doesn't give a damn about rules and about being "proper" in anything. (Not to even mention that Jack treats Miranda like crap right from the start.) I'm not defending this attitude, nor am I condemning it, but I think in case of Miranda, it is a good flaw and character trait to have that defines her.

 

There's that one moment where they have the argument with Jack where I see problems on both sides. From what I understood, Jack assaulted her in her own cabin, even if perhaps just verbally before the argument escalated, which makes me want to side with Miranda. I'm pretty sure Miranda didn't pick that fight. The reason I sometimes side with Jack in this argument is because calling a person "a mistake" is unacceptable to me. Maybe I misunderstood what Miranda meant but "You were a mistake," pisses me off big time. Especially with what we've seen in Pragia. And, no, I absolutely do not accept the excuse that the facility has gone rogue. It's TIM's job to have these things under control and there are ways to make sure of that and yet he never has. How many such facilities have we seen by the time we visit Pragia? If he's not able to keep his own people under control, he should find a different job. End of the story.

 

All that said, I don't blame Miranda for defending Cerberus. Do I think it's blind? Totally. But this is the organisation she feels she owes her freedom to. She escaped the life she despised with Cerberus' help and she found her place in the world where she's finally allowed to be her own person and do stuff on her own terms. I find her loyalty to Cerberus understandable. All that then makes me so proud of her when she personally tells TIM to screw off when you take her to the final boss.

 

Personally, what I've always wanted to see is Miranda and Jack finding something in common since they're basically both walking, unwilling experiments that were abused in their own ways. I've always thought they'd find some common understanding in that. I'm not talking of them becoming friends but rather admitting they're perhaps not all that different and that perhaps they both didn't have the easiest life. It's something I so wanted to bring up during their argument in ME2. I'm not mad it's not there and I think I understand the direction they decided to take both characters, but I would welcome it.

 

So, would I like to see more character development and more mature attention in these departments? Hell, yeah. Would I like to get better dialogue options for the argument and some other things in ME2? Totally. Do I want Miranda's ass to get out of my face sometimes? Yeah. Would I want the joke gone from the Citadel DLC? I'm not sure because I do like their reactions. For what it's worth, I think they handled the characters fairly well and they never really went to the "catfight" territory. That's a joke that the fans tend to make much, much more than the writers themselves and, yeah, that does p★ss me off because "catfighting" implies they're arguing about a guy or something stupid. And that's not what they're doing.

 

Whatever I might want to see in the game, I still think that both Jack and Miranda are one of the deepest and most developed characters in the ME2 crew. They get much more character development than, say, Garrus. Garrus has so few lines that it's frustrating and it all eventually just amounts to his reach and flexibility comment so he can become femShep's boy toy. Romanced Garrus' convos from there on are mostly about nothing but how they're going to have sex, not much about further exploration of his character. Not saying the convos aren't kind of cute and dorky on his part and that there's nothing there - his loyalty mission is fairly interesting and the "bed scene" is quite sweet - but when you compare him with Jack or Miranda, the women definitely have much more going on. They actually grabbed the better end of the stick, imo.

 

As for fanart, I think fanart is a... well, internet is a strange place. I have seen fanart by people who ship James Vega and Joker. How crazy is that? I mean, each to their own, but these characters are not even shown having the slightest gay in them in the game, so I have no idea where that even came from. What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that people are going to ship things we find mind-boggling and that we feel that just don't work. Jackanda is such a case for me, as well, because, as I said, I feel zero chemistry between them. I feel hate and anger and dislike that mostly calm down in ME3 if Citadel is any indication. So, yeah, I don't get it. But then again, I don't get many things on the internet. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[Dantriges]

I was rather surprised, too, when I first clicked on the support friendship option. It seems to me that it was meant to break to tension with this silly statement and give them a better target to be angry with or talk about how silly Shepard is. I found it rather weird to try that, OTOH it could be that something wihtout the big surprise/weird  factor wouldn´t work. 

 

Was this Jack/Miranda ship a thing? Half of Tali´s drunken ramblings made no sense to me before I visited BSN. 

[Jukaga]

 

Either way, I'd say that Miranda's and Jack's reactions to Shepard's stupid angry-lesbian-make-up-sex joke are very appropriate. Basically, their reaction is, "You are sh★tting me!" or something along those lines and, in my opinion, it sort of negates the dumb joke. It's the characters, themselves, telling the audience to sod off with that attitude and finally finding themselves in agreement thanks to that.

 

You got it exactly. Citadel is replete with little call-outs to the community like drunk Tali murmuring "It just smells like sweat. Why would you even ask that?"
 

[Valipour]

I’ll declare my interests here in that I am a massive fan of both Jack and Miranda, and a writer of Jackanda fanfic… but…

 

I largely agree with you. The prospect of Jack and Miranda in any kind of romantic clinch is almost totally unfeasible within the context of the games’ timeline. These are two characters that should, and do, hate each others’ guts, not just for their past history but because their characters are total opposites. There is simply no way for them to reach an accommodation with one another during the main storyline – their competing arcs simply do not permit it, even if Miranda does stop being a fascist paramilitary and Jack does learn to care for others.

 

I may be one of the only people in the whole Bio-sphere that loathed Citadel for its cheesy writing, but I also agree that J+Ms discussions there were no more than titillating fanservice and I don’t regard it as canon in any sense. It’s trite. (Even if some of the other party quips are kinda fun – Tali’s cheese incident, for example)

 

However, the way they work together and co-operate, and the grudging respect they develop for one another during ME2 and M3 - assuming they are reconciled during their fight -does, I think, provide the potential for the slate to be wiped. Well, if not wiped clean, then allow the possibility of a new start post-war.

 

And that’s where I think things can get interesting. If both can see the other as a person, both will realise that each were used as test subjects in their own way, and that both became quite evil characters as a result of the way they were treated (I often think fans often see M as less evil, and Jack more evil, than they really are). Treating J decently is a kind of atonement for M. Treating M decently, and recognising that M is not personally responsible for all of the evils of Cerberus, is personal growth for J. That’s still not enough for romance, sure, but coming to terms with one another is the same as coming to terms with themselves and the bad things they’ve done.

 

And if one did something incredibly selfless for the other (we know by the end of ME both have the capacity for self-sacrifice) then… well…

 

That’s where my story starts. And I’d argue that, from there, the worth of any story is in the telling. It however requires a lot of inductive leaps that go beyond the established story. That's not most people's cup of tea, particularly when you just want to relax with some good fanfic.  And I totally get that the Jackanda ship in the context of the actual games is often perplexing and sometimes downright ridiculous.

 

With that said, I think the.subverter’s ‘Loyalist and Convict’ series is some of the best short story fiction I’ve ever read, and may well convince you that, even though ME2 Jackanda may be a logical impossibility, it can sometimes just make sense (and feel damn good).