33 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

I just figured I'd talk about them both here instead of creating two threads.

1. Have you guys managed to raise Zevran's approval high enough to prevent him from betraying you? If so, how?

It just seems like being neutral towards his lifestyle doesn't cut it. You have to go out of your way to praise what he does and agree with his views.

The only judgmental statement I ever made was "That's just an excuse" but I did give him gifts later. Still, it wasn't enough.

2. So, I just started Awakening and well... would it make any sense to recruit Nathaniel after getting backstabbed by Zevran and denying Riordan's proposal to spare Loghain with the argument that he'd have no loyalty?

[RoseLawliet]

I have nothing helpful to say about Zevran. He's never betrayed me. Maybe it has to do with how you accept him into the party? The Wiki says he only has to be at 26, but he's normally hovering around 100 for me. I don't like to give the companions a lot of gifts. I horde them. Have you raised his approval enough to get the conversation that starts with him saying "I've a question, if I may"? It's about what he should do, keep his oath to you or go his own way. It's possible to be pretty nasty there. I wouldn't be surprised if he went back to the Crows had I told him I don't care what he does, or that he'd be my servant or slave.

 

Here's the Wiki paragraph about the Crow encounter:

Spoiler

After the Landsmeet quest has started, and while traveling through Denerim, Taliesen approaches the party and offers to take Zevran back to Antiva. If his approval rating is not high enough, Zevran (regardless of whether or not he's in the active party) will betray the team for the Crows and permanently die in the following confrontation. If this happens, his codex entry will be updated with details regarding his death. If he has high approval (+26, or at least at "warm" or "interested"), he will deny the Crows. If he is in a romance with the Warden and at least "interested" but below +71, he may refuse to fight, depending on how the Warden answers Taliesen. If this happens, the Warden will have the opportunity to question Zevran about his relationship with Taliesen later. Zevran expresses regret over killing Taliesen as, despite everything, Zevran had feelings for his fellow Crow. If he is in a romance with the Warden and the approval rating is high enough, he will fight alongside them against his fellow assassins. Afterward, Zevran states that the Crows will have assumed he rejoined Taliesin and subsequently died with him. This gives Zevran an opportunity to disappear before they learn otherwise, and his disposition will determine if he then asks for his freedom or to remain with the group and continue to fight the Blight.

 

As for Nathaniel, he isn't a hired assassin like Zevran was. He tells you he wanted to kill you, but changed his mind. He isn't being paid to kill you, and he doesn't hate/distrust the WardenS (like Loghain), just THE Warden. Whether you believe him or not is up to you, I suppose. My characters almost never get to hear Riordan asking to spare Loghain in the first place (because Alistair fights him). What origin are you playing? That might affect the decision.

[Qun00]

It would certainly help if I knew how many approval points the companions start with.

My dilemma with Nathaniel boils down to whether you can expect a man not to avenge his father.

With no metagaming, that is.

[kimgoold]

Nathaniel was a loyal companion in my DAA, after meeting him and doing his quest he was a constant in my party along with Sigrun. Zevran is a loyal companion for me as well, never had him betray me once.

[RoseLawliet]

It would certainly help if I knew how many approval points the companions start with.

My dilemma with Nathaniel boils down to whether you can expect a man not to avenge his father.

With no metagaming, that is.

 

Thing is, though, the Warden is quite a figure of authority at this time. Orlesian Warden, too. You can have Oghren and Anders by the time you meet Nathaniel, and a loyal seneschal. Not to mention all the soldiers. Nathaniel would have to have a bit of a death wish to go after the PC when there are that many people around who would try to stop him. Maybe I'm too trusting, but I believed him when he said he just wanted to try to repair the damage his father did to the Howe name.

 

And yes, Zevran and Nathaniel are two of my favorite characters.

[sylvanaerie]

I've never had any trouble with Zevran.  Most of his conversations have to do with just being compassionate, not being overly judgemental or making unnecessary mockery of him.  There wasn't much need to go 'yay team assassin'.  Remember, while not necessarily a 'good' occupation, assassination isn't necessarily an evil one either in this society.  The Crows operate pretty much openly (certainly everyone knows about them) and they can even take contracts to do some good (later on, one of the Crow quests you do in Denerim saves the life of a child).

 

While Zevran will admit he may have on occasion killed or injured innocent bystanders, it was never his intention.  He doesn't dwell on it, taking a very practical viewpoint on such matters--as a Crow he lived a very pleasurable life, but it was still life in a slave's guilded cage.  A viewpoint necessary to maintaining his sanity, as you will learn if you get his approval high enough, he does have feelings about his kills and he does have regret about one in particular.  

IMO, he even has a more honorable viewpoint than Leliana about assassination, preferring a quick clean kill rather than 'playing with his prey' as she did when she was a bard.  One of their banters discusses this.

 

He also has a couple of special gifts (the Antivan boots and Dalish gloves) that do a lot to boost his approval.  Bars of precious metals also boost his approval as well.   You can also use the Feastday gifts to artificially boost his approval if you have the DLC.

 

As for Nathaniel, I thought after the Penny Arcade comic I was going to go all Queen of Hearts on him and behead him right off, but my first warden needed a rogue so I recruited him.  Never regretted it.  Sometimes the wardens aren't about what you want to do, it's about ending the Blight.  He had skills my Cousland needed and she never looked back on it with regret.  I just rp'ed they knew each other as kids and she felt he was worth giving a second chance to since she knew he wasn't like his dad at all.

[Yaroub]

You'll be surprised how reasonable Nathaniel is.

[caradoc2000]

I rarely spare Zevran (I would do so more often if he had more useful skills), and I never spare Nathaniel.

[Vlada47]

I actually have fond experience from the real life with people, who I was at each others throats (sometimes literally, bullying and stuff... I was kinda unwelcome newcomer  ) with at elementary school and they gradually became one of my best buddies for a long time there... So I don't have that big of a problem with someone turning from being my enemy to somebody fighting at my side as is the case with Zevran and Nathaniel. You just have to... let go of some things.

[Remmirath]

I don't think I've ever had a game where Zevran betrayed my character, actually. Thus far my only character I expect would have ended up in that situation didn't spare him, and the rest have had an easy time of not being betrayed. My first character ended up in a romance with Zevran, so I'll discount him from this as that surely had an effect on the betrayal/no betrayal thing, but the others mostly just treated him reasonably well and didn't actively insult him. My impression is that it's fairly hard to get him actually not liking your character. Of course, it could be that my characters on average took a less dim view of the whole assassin thing than yours.

As far as Nathaniel goes, that all depends on the character you're playing, but I could certainly see some ways that somebody in such a situation might go ahead and recruit Nathaniel. On the other hand, if they're generally paranoid, it might not make sense. It's not like Nathaniel even actually tries to kill you; he's just stealing things and running away, basically. Not very threatening. I think that, in most situations a character might be in, an argument could be made either way for sparing or not sparing him.

[Deadly dwarf]

I was rather shocked to have Zevran turn on me in my latest playthrough.  Granted, I rarely used him since I always favored Leliana because she was my warden's love interest and because she was pretty advanced at opening chests.  I did give him the Dalish gloves but otherwise ignored him.  (I wonder if there are any situations in which Sten turns on you.)

[springacres]

It would certainly help if I knew how many approval points the companions start with.

My dilemma with Nathaniel boils down to whether you can expect a man not to avenge his father.

With no metagaming, that is.

I think all companions, except Dog, start at 0 (Dog is stuck permanently at 100 approval.)

 

I'm with sylvanaerie on this; Zev and Nathaniel are two of my favorite companions, so I haven't been able to kill either of them in any playthroughs so far.  (My F!Cousland may be a different matter, but I'd like to think that even she wouldn't go so far as to kill Nat out of hand.)

 

My canon Warden spared and recruited them both, and ended up surprising me by falling for Zev.  (That moment when an OC you had thought for 7 years was straight, turns out to be bi...)  His reasons for recruiting Zev were not entirely selfless; as an elven mage, he wanted someone to talk to who didn't look down on him for being an elf and who didn't seem to fear him as a mage.  And as it turned out, he and Zev had quite a bit in common - both taken from their homes at a young age to a life others had chosen for them, both elves living in a society ruled by humans, and ultimately both trying to live within a morality they had set for themselves.

 

He also spared Zev because, ultimately, Zev wasn't the one who wanted him dead; Loghain was.  In his view, therefore, killing Zevran would not have truly been justice.  Besides, he prefers not to kill unless he has to or unless someone really deserves it, and he has a fairly short list of those types of people:

1. Darkspawn
2. Blood mages and their allies
3. Mages who knowingly summon demons
4. Slavers and their allies
5. People who have done something that actually deserves the death penalty - i.e., rapists, kidnappers, or murderers - and who don't seem to regret it
6. People who pay other people to try to get him killed

He spared and conscripted Nathaniel too, because ultimately he felt like Nathaniel had more rights to the heirlooms he was trying to "steal" than he, himself, did.  He also feels, quite keenly, that as an elven mage he really shouldn't be ruling Amaranthine anyway, and basically views Nathaniel as being the rightful arl.   Ultimately, I think that's the real reason he conscripted Nathaniel - he wanted a human noble, someone trained from birth both to act as an adviser and to rule in his place should something happen to him.

 

...And I apologize for rambling, but that in a nutshell is how I view both Zevran and Nathaniel.  Make of it what you will, but my sense of justice says it doesn't make sense to kill either of them.

Modifié par springacres, 01 septembre 2015 - 05:24 .

[cJohnOne]

Yeah I give Zervran gifts.  But I don't use him very often.

[springacres]

Yeah I give Zervran gifts.  But I don't use him very often.

I use him as my main DW rogue every playthrough.   And I find that even if I don't use him in fights all that much, I end up bringing him along for the banter alone.

 

...Is it obvious I'm a Zev fangirl?

[sylvanaerie]

I use him as my main DW rogue every playthrough.   And I find that even if I don't use him in fights all that much, I end up bringing him along for the banter alone.

 

...Is it obvious I'm a Zev fangirl?

Zev is my second favorite companion in the franchise.  They have yet to topple him or Alistair from their positions as first and second for me with any characters though I do love many of them.

 

I also like Nate, SIgrun, Aveline, Varric, Cass and Dorian as well.  But none of them can hold a candle to Alistair and Zev.

 

Depending on my playthroughs, I go with either him or Leliana as my main dps/rogue types.  With a little micromanagement, he's killer with those daggers and so fast he is rarely hit.  Of course I play on Casual or Normal, never higher, so that might have something to do with it too.  I'm more into story than combat.

[Vlada47]

Zevran is totally viable as melee DPS on higher difficulties too... just don't have him take any serious damage. That goes for pretty much every rogue... they can do great single-target damage, but they are total wussies otherwise (you can have them dodge melee attacks from regular enemies with high DEX, but don't even think of letting them take it from bosses or enemies with magic).

[springacres]

Zev is my second favorite companion in the franchise.  They have yet to topple him or Alistair from their positions as first and second for me with any characters though I do love many of them.

 

I also like Nate, SIgrun, Aveline, Varric, Cass and Dorian as well.  But none of them can hold a candle to Alistair and Zev.

 

Depending on my playthroughs, I go with either him or Leliana as my main dps/rogue types.  With a little micromanagement, he's killer with those daggers and so fast he is rarely hit.  Of course I play on Casual or Normal, never higher, so that might have something to do with it too.  I'm more into story than combat.

Zev's my favorite, followed by either Al or Oghren.  In terms of the rest of the franchise, I like pretty much everyone in Awakening except Justice.  DA2 - Fenris, Varric, Carver.  I too am more into story than combat, and unfortunately DA2 upped the combat ante while telling the bare minimum of the story.  Still haven't played Inquisition.

[cJohnOne]

I'm just started replaying DA2 right now and I think it has story.  What do you mean by minimum of story?

[springacres]

I'm just started replaying DA2 right now and I think it has story.  What do you mean by minimum of story?

It has some story, but to me it ends up feeling like the PC's decisions are less consequential.  It's true that you're not attempting to recruit allies on anywhere near the scale of Origins, but even (and perhaps especially) given the smaller setting, even the minor decisions you make (like what happens to Feynriel or how you deal with the Starkhaven apostates) should have some sort of an impact on the main storyline, not just on how your companions think about you.

 

And to get this thread back on topic, could we please have some mod tools for DA2 so modders can fix Zevran's and Nathaniel's dialogue bugs?  I have the import flag fix, but it still irks me that Zev acts as if my Warden is dead and Nathaniel acts as if the Architect is alive.

[sylvanaerie]

It has some story, but to me it ends up feeling like the PC's decisions are less consequential.  It's true that you're not attempting to recruit allies on anywhere near the scale of Origins, but even (and perhaps especially) given the smaller setting, even the minor decisions you make (like what happens to Feynriel or how you deal with the Starkhaven apostates) should have some sort of an impact on the main storyline, not just on how your companions think about you.

 

And to get this thread back on topic, could we please have some mod tools for DA2 so modders can fix Zevran's and Nathaniel's dialogue bugs?  I have the import flag fix, but it still irks me that Zev acts as if my Warden is dead and Nathaniel acts as if the Architect is alive.

 

One of the actual bioware patches fixed the broken flags, or should have.  They were fixed on my game and I didn't have any mods to that effect.

[JJ Likeaprayer]

To get Zevran to like you,you need to give him gifts (Antivan wine,antivan leather boots,etc.)...and make sure your conversations with him is always in a forgiving way (I understand...that must've been hard for you...I'm glad you're here...etc.)

[Fenris8]

I was rather shocked to have Zevran turn on me in my latest playthrough.  Granted, I rarely used him since I always favored Leliana because she was my warden's love interest and because she was pretty advanced at opening chests.  I did give him the Dalish gloves but otherwise ignored him.  (I wonder if there are any situations in which Sten turns on you.)

Yes me too, i was so pissed off. On console i had to restart in denial mode hahaha, on pc he doesn't talk a lot beyond the qns list. Even if i give him many gifts that's the only problem. yea maybe because u use Leliana, yea she is good with lockpicking but i don't like her boring preachy character  ack

[Fenris8]

It has some story, but to me it ends up feeling like the PC's decisions are less consequential.  It's true that you're not attempting to recruit allies on anywhere near the scale of Origins, but even (and perhaps especially) given the smaller setting, even the minor decisions you make (like what happens to Feynriel or how you deal with the Starkhaven apostates) should have some sort of an impact on the main storyline, not just on how your companions think about you.

 

And to get this thread back on topic, could we please have some mod tools for DA2 so modders can fix Zevran's and Nathaniel's dialogue bugs?  I have the import flag fix, but it still irks me that Zev acts as if my Warden is dead and Nathaniel acts as if the Architect is alive.

There are bugs??

[Aren]

I just figured I'd talk about them both here instead of creating two threads.

1. Have you guys managed to raise Zevran's approval high enough to prevent him from betraying you? If so, how?

It just seems like being neutral towards his lifestyle doesn't cut it. You have to go out of your way to praise what he does and agree with his views.

The only judgmental statement I ever made was "That's just an excuse" but I did give him gifts later. Still, it wasn't enough.

2. So, I just started Awakening and well... would it make any sense to recruit Nathaniel after getting backstabbed by Zevran and denying Riordan's proposal to spare Loghain with the argument that he'd have no loyalty?

HIgh enough.... you mean that silly +23 easy to get simply by using him a little bit...

 

 

Use the loyalty argument does not sound reasonable to me to want to refuse Riodan advise as he said what loyalty matters for a GW? He is in the ship after the joining anyway