204 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

I agree to the extent that if what we're talking about is how they were in DA:O and DA2, a joke basically with a couple sidequests, then yes we're better off without them. 'Properly used' would be dramatically used. I've yet to see a game really do that, other than TW3, as much as people that oppose their presence might not want to hear it. In that game, yes you have the veneer of sex or sometimes glamour, but you've got drug addiction, murder, sanctioned abuse by an evil client (who you can thankfully save the girl and put an end to it), you have traumatic life stories and turf war, and you've got the backdrop for secret meetings between criminals and conspirators, etc.

Dragon Age is not The Witcher, so of course it would approach the material in a BioWare, character centric style, but it starts with just treating them seriously. I imagine Iron Bull, Sera, and Blackwall would have plenty to say about their own attitudes, vis a vis IB's sexual attitude and his utilitarian approach as a spy, Sera's life on the slum streets and her involvement as a Red Jenny, and Blackwall's general seediness and dishonesty, especially as a fugitive. And Val Royeax's brothels are supposed to be a big deal in the established lore. The story would naturally lean that way.

But I remember a dev comment about their version of brothels not being particularly well recieved, thus the decision to spend that money elsewhere. If they would only consider the kind of (basically offensive in a lot of cases) joke version from the previous two games, then they may as well not go there. But if they were willing to risk offending people in a way that was actually worth it, I wish that version was in the game, not in Skyhold though. It'd make for a lot stronger location for story and character development than half the large zones they shoehorned in. Some people act like the story was this sacrosanct object that the whole game was designed to support, and everything there must truly have been chosen in service to the story. I guarantee that's not how it worked. If it had been, we'd've got a very, very different game. Reality is they're chasing a particular audience, and they decided a legit brothel location and related storyline didn't serve their purpose. Same reason they completely threw out the (much grittier, more realistic, more powerful) social tension around gender, sexuality, and societal privilege present everywhere in DA:O. That has hurt the setting, but the improvement around companion romantic relationships has offset it, more or less. They need to get back to investing us into the world through real drama as well next time. The setting in DA:I is extremely sanitized. The party are the only thing that give it any life.

Ultimately, I agree with your point regarding the content.To the extent I see a brothel adding anything, I think it has to be in showing a darker, grimier and grittier setting.

I disagree with you completely on the idea that it would offend people to have this content. Where it comes offensive is precisely when it isn't gritty or dark - it's just a different sort of sexual fantasy, moving from joke (which is Bioware's way) to fantasy brothel (which is how games have portrayed it typically). TW2 and TW3 have struggled mightily, IMO, to get meaningful portrayals out of their brothels.

What it ultimately comes down to is that a brothel isn't about simulated sex and flashing a pair of ******.

I'm not going to touch the discussion on politics. Suffice it to say I think you're wrong. Not because you're wrong that DA as a setting is sanitised - because I think it is - but because the alternatives you list (mainly TW) is equally sanitised, just from the other end.

[sorentoft]

"The Herald of Andraste has a brothel in his house..."

Nah, too stupid.

What? Those Chantry sisters need to do something for the cause.

[cindercatz]

Visible battles for control of the Hinterlands by mages and templars. Refugees camped in old ruins and other locales throughout the same area. Mages being trapped and burned to death inside homes. Red lyrium infecting people and growing out of them. The broken ruins, dead bodies and trapped soliders in the Exhalted Plains. Not to mention Crestwood, or seeing Wardens murder their own to summon demons.

Certainly sanitized...

You want to know what? I just got a big reminder a few hours ago why I don't play the Witcher and do play DA.

There's a massive manhunt in my area as I type this. The schools are in lockdown. I want to play a game where the good guys may be flawed, but they're still GOOD. Not less bad than everyone else.

Sorry it took so long to answer. ..Anyway, this is pretty much illustrating my point. There are no visible battles for control of the Hinterlands. There's neverending trash mobs with a little accompanying text, MMO style. We should actually see the story events play out, participate in the drama, not run after random faceless respawns. The refugees are background noise whose entire plot boils down to a couple forgotten lines. We have no involvement with their plight. We never see anything happen to them, nor can we interact with them in any way. They have no effect on me because they're treated like checkbox filler. The mage trapped in the burning building is a codex entry. That should've been a dramatic cutscene at bare minimum. I'd've pointed to the attack on Haven. That's the baseline I'd point to. They shouldn't relegate everything people would be going through to a couple codex pages.

 

The red lyrium worked in the future scene with our companions. We don't typically see real characters struggling with it throughout the rest of the game. They're just an enemy type, serving gameplay a lot more than story. Again, most of what matters is relegated to the codex. Exalted Plains, Crestwood, they're supposed to be these highpoints in the war story, but we don't see anything. More trash mobs. The high points of the Exalted Plains are the little bit leading back to the Dalish store, and Solas' story there, which is great, but again it's one companion moment, and that's it for story beats, which goes to my point about the companions being the only real life in the world. I don't hate the game at all, but what I like about it is pretty much entirely thanks to the companion stuff and a few main story bits. The ruins are fun little dungeons with some interesting banter, but that's it. Crestwood, the choice spirit is comical, but he's got one short exchange and that's it. Seriously, and that's more than most zones. The hearings at Skyhold were really the highlight. The whole thing should be shooting for something approaching main story quality, but it doesn't. It feels empty. Pretty, but empty.

 

The Wardens were mind controlled, and it was a black and white, storybook sort of scenario. There's not much human drama there the way it was presented for most of the game. The siege was a highlight though. Human drama though. Drama, in general. DA:I was very sanitized. It's not the same world as in DA:O, because we basically spend most of the game floating above everything being reminded how progressive Thedas is now. It's nice and comfortable, but it's not that interesting. Outside of the companions, which as I said are the life of the game, where does the setting really challenge us? And even there, it's got issue tunnel vision. You know, like slavery is everywhere, but Dorian's an unrepentant slave owner, and it's basically an offhand single conversation, and I never get to challenge him on it again. But we're buddy buddy because I supported him with his dad. Why? That's the sticking point it should've really delved into. It does too much preaching to the choir and shunts most of the really meaty in-fiction issues off to the side. It's unreal, in that uncanny valley kind of way.

 

DA and Witcher, I play both because I play games for the story more than anything else, and there's not much good fantasy sword and sorcery material out there in general. DA was my favorite of the two thanks to DA:O, up until W3, because it just plain does everything better outside of customization. I only liked Witcher 2 slightly more than DA2 (because of some of the same problems with DA2, didn't play the first Witcher), but I absolutely loved DA:O. DA shouldn't try to "be the Witcher"; I don't want it to just copy Witcher. But W3 does a far, far better job of presenting the world it lives in, and it does far more to make it believable. It's just much better realized. That bit about your character being only better by comparison to horrible people around you in Witcher, that's really unfair.  My Geralt was a good guy, imperfect but good. The player really has the choice in that game. There's some unfortunate atheistic/occult blended allegory, but it gives you more leeway to deal with that than most things out there. It's full of symbolism you can't do anything to excise. That's what I didn't like. That stuff is very unfortunately everywhere, including DA. But within the confines of its fantasy world, you have the ability to play a generally moral, "good" hearted character, as much as DA anyway. I played Geralt almost like a Duncan from Highlander, loved that show. He strikes me that way though.

 

I don't have to agree with something to enjoy the game, as long as it gives me a way to mitigate it. If I did, there wouldn't be much out there I could play. You have a lot of choice. It just does a better job of presenting you with complex choices and nuance. And it doesn't skimp on consequences for the most part. It doesn't pull its punches. Personal preference though; I'm not saying you should play it. I'm just explaining my POV.

[cindercatz]

Ultimately, I agree with your point regarding the content.To the extent I see a brothel adding anything, I think it has to be in showing a darker, grimier and grittier setting.

I disagree with you completely on the idea that it would offend people to have this content. Where it comes offensive is precisely when it isn't gritty or dark - it's just a different sort of sexual fantasy, moving from joke (which is Bioware's way) to fantasy brothel (which is how games have portrayed it typically). TW2 and TW3 have struggled mightily, IMO, to get meaningful portrayals out of their brothels.

What it ultimately comes down to is that a brothel isn't about simulated sex and flashing a pair of ******.

I'm not going to touch the discussion on politics. Suffice it to say I think you're wrong. Not because you're wrong that DA as a setting is sanitised - because I think it is - but because the alternatives you list (mainly TW) is equally sanitised, just from the other end.

Just a quick clarification. I was referring to treating prostitution as a joke in an otherwise mostly dramatic game as generally offensive to multiple stripes of people, not treating it seriously. And it is. Not to everybody, but to a lot of people. Treating them seriously will still offend some people simply because the subject matter is approached at all, or seriously dealing with sexual content at all, but DA:I made good strides there anyway. My point in part was that companion centric content (which was strong for the most part) and the general setting were treated unevenly. They were bold in certain places and consciously pulled back in others. Part of that is just not hitting the sweet spot with their first approach to open world. Part of it is trying to hit a certain balance with who they see as their audience, which is hard to do.

[Cantina]

Seems to me there should be a brothel for the Inquisition in Skyhold. DAO and DA2 had one. Use it to add some strange encounters. For example, the Inquisitor could set up an encounter there for Cole. Or, the Inquisitor could fool around there and risk being caught by their love interest, possibly putting an end to the romance.

 

I mean, the game already has some brief nudity and coarse language. If you did not want to go to the brothel, you wouldn't have to. Make encounters there totally optional.

 

Just a thought...

 

 

 

Recruit Solider One: "Where's General Cullen?"

 

Recruit Two: "He's at the Brothel. Man, has not come out in three days."

 

Recruit One: "Andraste give me strength or make me that young again."

 

 

You get the joke if you over hear the soldiers talking in the Arbor Wilds.