53 réponses à ce sujet

[JedTed]

My Shepard still holds a grudge against Cerberus for the incident on Akuze but he also sees them as a nessicary evil.



I am disapointed that you never get to bring up Akuze during you chat with Miranda after Jack's loyalty mission. She said the rachni and the thorian creepers were being engineered as foot soilders but what was the purpose of the thersher maw tests?

[yummysoap]

Shepard's squad died because of some Cerberus f*cker with a clipboard that wanted to test something. That might not have as much emotional impact to some Cerberus sympathizers because it didn't happen onscreen, but imagine if your entire squad in ME1 (Garrus, Tali, Kaiden, Ashley and Wrex) got brutally slaughtered onscreen by a swarm of thresher maws all because some group of wankers wanted to see how you'd react? I get the feeling you wouldn't be so forgiving when said group of wankers resurrected you in ME3.

What makes the whole thing worse is the pointlessness of it all. The Maws were unleashed on your squad just because someone was interested in what could happen. How f*cking cold can you be? I hope in ME3 Sole Survivor Shepard gets a chance to feed the Illusive Man to a thresher maw while standing up on some observatory taking notes on a clipboard whilst gowned in a labcoat.

"JESUS F*CKING CHRIST! HELP ME SHEPARD!"
"Hmm, yes. It appears your internal organs have now become external. Very interesting... Very interesting."

Modifié par yummysoap, 16 mars 2010 - 10:27 .

[Sina84]

Nomather how you roleplay, Shepard is supposed to be smart. Tens of thousands of humans are being melted and the Reapers are coming. Cerberus are the only ones acknowledging this and willing to do anything about it. Ofcourse Shepard will work for them.

[gotrekfirebeard]

The Toombs issue is puzzling though, you hear the message on Omega and you can't help but stop and say:" hey that's true Imy character hates slavers and shoots any one linked to Cerberus in my playthrough and now he just forgets it all and moves on??wth?"



Even Jack brings up her grudge against cerberus constantly why doesn't Shephard do the same?



But then again it is al llinked to the Renegade pplaythrough which paradoxal since the Renegade 100% route ( voting Terra Firma etc...) is a xenophobic guy who works wiht a team of aliens on an alien ship (irony anyone ?) and then goes 100% Cerebrus a terrorist group who is also xenophobic (thats logical at least...) but who also killed his friends (Kahoku included...) .

[Terraneaux]

It would have been fine if there were options throughout the game to express Shep's feelings that they were working with Cerberus in the hopes of stabbing them in the back once he/she got the chance. Instead, your character's just a Cerberus goon for most of the game, and even with the Collector Base you don't get to say 'I'm blowing this base up so you can't have it, TIM.'



Someone on the writing team was a serious Cerberus fanboi, methinks.

[Grae1923]

I have no problem with it. As a sole survivor, I pestered the Illusive Man and Miranda at (almost) every opportunity I got regarding how I don't trust Cerberus.

Some of you may be surprised to know that if you make the right dialogue choices, (and, trust me, they aren't hard to find at all [hint: look on the 'left' side of the wheel]) you wind up accepting missions only because you -have- to. I can't tell you how many times the Illusive Man told me that he understands my resentment but I don't really have a choice in the matter. So, yeah, in the conclusion, I proudly reminded him of my REAL allegiance.

[JamieCOTC]

This: http://social.biowar...5/index/1337306

Yes, this has come up before and there are a couple of other threads on it, but this is the biggest one.  I would have to say this is the biggest blunder of the game.  Unfortunately, it only affects one background, so I can only figure that the writers (or someone told the writers) to leave it out and hope no one noticed.  It didn't work.  It won't be fixed as I doubt they will do a DLC for one background.  A Toombs DLC would be nice, but that would require two BioWare writing two seperate Shep responces, one for Sole Survivor and one for everyone else.  I don't like it either, but what's done is done and it will never be fixed. 

[BaladasDemnevanni]

I think Cerberus' involvement is being blown way out of proportion. You are working with Cerberus, this is true. But never once are you in any way involved in any of their morally questionable activities. If someone can name one instances where TIM orders Shepard to butcher a child or conduct illicit experiments (or anything of that nature), I will be content. The only time where this occurs is when you are asked to preserve the Collector Base, at which point you are allowed to tell him to 'screw off'.

Until then, all he's asking you to do is stop the Collectors and by extension the Reapers, an agenda which Shepard already had. He's also providing you with a ship, a crew, and nigh infinite resources whereas the rest of the galaxy (and Council) thinks Shepard is a loony. Not to mention that it was through their efforts that you were restored to life. I fail to see the issue at hand.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 14 avril 2010 - 10:01 .

[RyrineaNara]

I keep thinking the same as the op with the Control Chip in Shepard brain. That was the only thing that made any sense to have Shepard working for Cerberus......
Cerberus killed my entire squad in the Soul Survivor background, and I never brought it up talking to the people who thought Cerberus was the perfect organization. I just have to say what the **** to that it just didn't make any sense to me. Hell, I at least cared about the characters who died at the hands of Cerberus in long run.

I too would like to feed that ass too a Treasher Maw myself, and I don't care that I am play a paragon, I'd love to see Tim have the most gruesome death ever for what he did too all those people he injured, killed, tortured, put Reapers tech in them.

Modifié par RyrineaNara, 14 avril 2010 - 10:23 .

[JamieCOTC]

Akuze is a gaping wound of a plot hole. Nothing more.  Nothing less.   Far better stories, including some of the best films of all time, have them.  My only real question is why did the writers leave it out? I think I know why.  It only affected one of three possible backgrounds and either BW couldn't do it or wouldn't do it.  Unfortunately, BioWare is unlikely to ever say anything on the matter.  No company likes to admit they f*cked up. 

Edit: rephrased the question as to why the writers left out Akuze. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 14 avril 2010 - 10:44 .

[JamieCOTC]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

I think Cerberus' involvement is being blown way out of proportion. You are working with Cerberus, this is true. But never once are you in any way involved in any of their morally questionable activities. If someone can name one instances where TIM orders Shepard to butcher a child or conduct illicit experiments (or anything of that nature), I will be content. The only time where this occurs is when you are asked to preserve the Collector Base, at which point you are allowed to tell him to 'screw off'.

Until then, all he's asking you to do is stop the Collectors and by extension the Reapers, an agenda which Shepard already had. He's also providing you with a ship, a crew, and nigh infinite resources whereas the rest of the galaxy (and Council) thinks Shepard is a loony. Not to mention that it was through their efforts that you were restored to life. I fail to see the issue at hand.

The point isn't that the Cerberus cell you are working w/ is bad.  The point is that the organization itself ruined Shepard's life at some point in the past and he or she doesn't even bring it up when asked to join Cerberus.  That's just unrealistic.  As I, and many others, have said, it is a gaping plot hole. 

[wolfsite]

With the amount of back story there is for each decision and background it is a shame that there couldn't have been more work making sure that each background and decision doesn't contrast or contradict new story material.



Hell I wanted my colonist Shepard to go Berserk on Ilium about "Endentured Servitued" since the only reason Shepard lost his family and friends was because of Batarian Slavers.

[JamieCOTC]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

So basically, the quest is supposed to make you feel like you got nothing accomplished, either way you resolve it.

I mean, I guess that's fair. To not show favoritism for Paragon or Renegade.  Definitely makes the choice slightly meaningless.

Slightly?

Don't you mean completely?

I understand that this is a little, tiny minute thing that isn't a big deal in the overall picture. With all the hype on how our choices will affect the way ME2 works, I am disappointed in BIoware, for the first time in a ten years.

And yes, I am being over dramatic. It is the internet.

Yes, the importability function was oversold.  That said, that type of gaming is new and hopefully it will improve in time.  I'm certain that if BW ever acknowledges the problem, they will put it off on the players for expecting too much.  That said, importing a character does add flavor to the game, but it does not effect the big picture. I don't think the technology is there for it yet. 

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

agreed with most points, they really should have put in background comments on this, even if it was 1-2 lines.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

JamieCOTC wrote...

 loony. Not to mention that it was through their efforts that you were The point isn't that the Cerberus cell you are working w/ is bad.  The point is that the organization itself ruined Shepard's life at some point in the past and he or she doesn't even bring it up when asked to join Cerberus.  That's just unrealistic.  As I, and many others, have said, it is a gaping plot hole. 

But people are taking the argument one step further. If you're saying that Shepard should have brought this to TIM's attention, I can agree. If we're saying that Shep should not work with Cerberus as a result, this I disagree with. What happened in the past does not change the situation. The Reapers are still coming for you and TIM still resurrected you. What Cerberus did was not personal, it was business.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 14 avril 2010 - 11:26 .

[Terraneaux]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

But people are taking the argument one step further. If you're saying that Shepard should have brought this to TIM's attention, I can agree. If we're saying that Shep should not work with Cerberus as a result, this I disagree with. What happened in the past does not change the situation. The Reapers are still coming for you and TIM still resurrected you. What Cerberus did was not personal, it was business.

To be honest, Shepard probably shouldn't bring it to TIM's attention, or else should whine about it in a superficial manner and then let it go.  If you tell TIM that you hate him forever because of Akuze, he's never gonna give you the opportunity you need to take him down.  Of course, there's no opportunity to really express your dislike for Cerberus in any meaningful way in the game; the best you can say is that their 'ends justify the means' philosophy is flawed, which is trivial bull.  

The story and plot of the game do a really hard sell on Cerberus, what with the retconning of the council's belief of the reapers and the cleaning up of their image.  I'm sure some genius wanted a 'darker, edgier sequel' but it just makes Shepard look like a witless fool.  Then again the impression I got from a lot of the game was that the writers really, really didn't want to write anything but their own kewl new characters, so we get characters like Jack and Samara who try as hard as they can to steal the spotlight from Shep.  

[TheLostGenius]

Making sense was not the highest priority of Mass Efffect 2's storyline Assemble massive crew of space scum!!! YES. We beat the Collector's, but wait the REAPERS ARE COMING. Felt like very little progress was actually made from ME1.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

TheLostGenius wrote...

Making sense was not the highest priority of Mass Efffect 2's storyline Assemble massive crew of space scum!!! YES. We beat the Collector's, but wait the REAPERS ARE COMING. Felt like very little progress was actually made from ME1.

I don't know about little progress, pissing off the reapers... is major progress in my opinon. Sheppard being alive is just one major - middle finger to the reapers after they killed you. Your an walking insult to the reapers as far as they are concerned.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Terraneaux wrote...

1. To be honest, Shepard probably shouldn't bring it to TIM's attention, or else should whine about it in a superficial manner and then let it go.  If you tell TIM that you hate him forever because of Akuze, he's never gonna give you the opportunity you need to take him down.  Of course, there's no opportunity to really express your dislike for Cerberus in any meaningful way in the game; the best you can say is that their 'ends justify the means' philosophy is flawed, which is trivial bull.  

2. The story and plot of the game do a really hard sell on Cerberus, what with the retconning of the council's belief of the reapers and the cleaning up of their image.  I'm sure some genius wanted a 'darker, edgier sequel' but it just makes Shepard look like a witless fool.  Then again the impression I got from a lot of the game was that the writers really, really didn't want to write anything but their own kewl new characters, so we get characters like Jack and Samara who try as hard as they can to steal the spotlight from Shep.  

1. 'In a meaningful way' implies that there should be some impact on the plot. You are given this opportunity on the Collector Base by blowing it up. You have no reason before that to betray Cerberus. But I stick to my earlier point: state one action that TIM asks you to take which you find morally reprehensible prior to the Collector Base. Until you can do so, there should be no issues. Cerberus are the only ones who believe you. They are supplying you with infinite resources.

2. How is Cerberus' image 'retconned'? The full range of the organization was not presented to you in ME1. 

If all I ever told you about the Council was that they were responsible for the Rachni genocide, for launching the Genophage on the Krogan (who were their allies against the Rachni), and created an organization completely above the law consisting only of their own species, are you going to have a positive image of them? The answer is 'no'. Cerberus is no different; you experienced the worst of the organization. They are no saints, but they are not devils either.  Few things in life are so black and white.

Edit: I'm also curious about something. How was the Council 'ret-conned' in ME1?

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 15 avril 2010 - 12:40 .

[JamieCOTC]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

 loony. Not to mention that it was through their efforts that you were The point isn't that the Cerberus cell you are working w/ is bad.  The point is that the organization itself ruined Shepard's life at some point in the past and he or she doesn't even bring it up when asked to join Cerberus.  That's just unrealistic.  As I, and many others, have said, it is a gaping plot hole. 

But people are taking the argument one step further. If you're saying that Shepard should have brought this to TIM's attention, I can agree. If we're saying that Shep should not work with Cerberus as a result, this I disagree with. What happened in the past does not change the situation. The Reapers are still coming for you and TIM still resurrected you. What Cerberus did was not personal, it was business.

I agree that Shep really has no other alternative than to work w/ Cerberus to defeat the Collectors and it's doubtful that either Jacob or Miranda had anything to do w/ Akuze, but it should have at least been brought up.  What I would have liked to have seen would have been an option at the beginning for Shep to bring it up w/ TIM but ultimately realize she has no other choice.  And at the end of the game have the option of additional dialogue w/ TIM after her "I'm in charge now" speech ...

"Oh, and by the way, I haven't forgotten about Akuze.  When I'm done with the Reapers, I'm coming for you next."

[BaladasDemnevanni]

JamieCOTC wrote...

I agree that Shep really has no other alternative than to work w/ Cerberus to defeat the Collectors and it's doubtful that either Jacob or Miranda had anything to do w/ Akuze, but it should have at least been brought up.  What I would have liked to have seen would have been an option at the beginning for Shep to bring it up w/ TIM but ultimately realize she has no other choice.  And at the end of the game have the option of additional dialogue w/ TIM after her "I'm in charge now" speech ...

"Oh, and by the way, I haven't forgotten about Akuze.  When I'm done with the Reapers, I'm coming for you next."

Ah, then I agree with you 100% on this. Don't mistake me, I definitely think it should have been addressed at some point. Cerberus did get his entire squad killed after all. On the whole, I had problem with most of Shepard's background options. They seemed very tacked on. We receieved a small piece of dialogue and one unique quest for each one...and that was it. I may be forgetting, but there was no unique dialogue depending on your history.

[Terraneaux]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


1. 'In a meaningful way' implies that there should be some impact on the plot. You are given this opportunity on the Collector Base by blowing it up. You have no reason before that to betray Cerberus. But I stick to my earlier point: state one action that TIM asks you to take which you find morally reprehensible prior to the Collector Base. Until you can do so, there should be no issues. Cerberus are the only ones who believe you. They are supplying you with infinite resources.

First of all, you never blow up the Collector base because you don't want Cerberus to have it - you blow it up because you think it's inherently evil in some manner, like the taint of the people who died there has seeped into the walls and the technology contained therein can never be used for good.  

2. How is Cerberus' image 'retconned'? The full range of the organization was not presented to you in ME1. 

If all I ever told you about the Council was that they were responsible for the Rachni genocide, for launching the Genophage on the Krogan (who were their allies against the Rachni), and created an organization completely above the law consisting only of their own species, are you going to have a positive image of them? The answer is 'no'. Cerberus is no different; you experienced the worst of the organization. They are no saints, but they are not devils either.  Few things in life are so black and white.

Edit: I'm also curious about something. How was the Council 'ret-conned' in ME1?

The council aren't exactly blemish-free either.  Their history is a long one of the Salarians and Asari getting other races to fight their wars for them, then stabbing them in the back when they get too powerful.  I find it likely that if the whole Reaper invasion thing hadn't have happened, the Turians were next in line and the Humans were going to be the next 'favorite race' for the next few centuries.  

In the end, though, the issue isn't so much that the council is good, but that Cerberus is TERRIBLE.  The facility that Jack was raised in, Akuze, turning colonists into husks for the lulz, assassinating a key member of humanity's defense force... yeah, I suppose the mission in ME2 is enough to justify their existence, considering it probably saved all of humanity, but that is literally it, and that is as much Shepard's responsibility as theirs.  

As to your last little comment, at the end of ME1 the council thanks you for saving them from the 'Reapers.'  Plural.  It was pretty clear that they believed your story at that point.  

[AntiChri5]

Terraneaux wrote...

First of all, you never blow up the Collector base because you don't want Cerberus to have it - you blow it up because you think it's inherently evil in some manner, like the taint of the people who died there has seeped into the walls and the technology contained therein can never be used for good.  

Do not presume to tell people why they did what they did. Were you reading my mind?

[JamieCOTC]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

I agree that Shep really has no other alternative than to work w/ Cerberus to defeat the Collectors and it's doubtful that either Jacob or Miranda had anything to do w/ Akuze, but it should have at least been brought up.  What I would have liked to have seen would have been an option at the beginning for Shep to bring it up w/ TIM but ultimately realize she has no other choice.  And at the end of the game have the option of additional dialogue w/ TIM after her "I'm in charge now" speech ...

"Oh, and by the way, I haven't forgotten about Akuze.  When I'm done with the Reapers, I'm coming for you next."

Ah, then I agree with you 100% on this. Don't mistake me, I definitely think it should have been addressed at some point. Cerberus did get his entire squad killed after all. On the whole, I had problem with most of Shepard's background options. They seemed very tacked on. We receieved a small piece of dialogue and one unique quest for each one...and that was it. I may be forgetting, but there was no unique dialogue depending on your history.

True.  I recall some dialogue in ME1 that mentions Akuze or Mindoir, both my Shep's background/psych profile.  Jenkins mentions Akuze in the beginning of the game.  Ash brings up Mindoir later on.  I'm sure the same can be said for the other backgrounds.  In ME2 their are not so subtle hints that Shepard has moved on and left her past behind, which, again depending on the background, is a bit unrealistic.  Even James Bond gets touchy when someone brings up his late wife.