184 réponses à ce sujet

[Dabrikishaw]

Skill Mutation sounds like a fun compromise.

[We'll bang okay]

Yes. And make it like tes or other rpgs and let me pick what powers I want.

[Helios969]

It lets the player play whatever sort of character he or she wants.

If you want to play an Engineer, play an Engineer.

Giving other people more options is never lame, particularly when you can still play as you choose.

There's no downside.

Having options is not lame, but creating a "dual-class" from a pool of powers without some sort of penalty is extremely lame...because otherwise you are penalizing people who specialize in a specific class or type of attack style.  Someone who specializes in melee attacks should be better than someone who does it "part time" just because they picked the power from a pool.  That's why I would really like to see Bioware employ a leveling system based around your abilities/preferred weapon type.  The more you successfully employ a power or use a weapon your skill increases.  I want to actually be rewarded for improving my skill at the game.

[luckyloser_62]

I don't necessarily want to pick my abilities in the sense of a create-a-class type deal. What I do want is a much larger pool of powers for each class, with only enough points for roughly the same number of powers as we got in ME3. Combined with much more dramatic differences in power evolution we could get have much more varied build options.

[MrStoob]

Having options is not lame, but creating a "dual-class" from a pool of powers without some sort of penalty is extremely lame...because otherwise you are penalizing people who specialize in a specific class or type of attack style.  Someone who specializes in melee attacks should be better than someone who does it "part time" just because they picked the power from a pool.  That's why I would really like to see Bioware employ a leveling system based around your abilities/preferred weapon type.  The more you successfully employ a power or use a weapon your skill increases.  I want to actually be rewarded for improving my skill at the game.

Indeed.  Such as, if you're using biotic skills, placing 'points' in any biotic skill could improve biotics overall but have an effect on weights/weapon selection.  If someone puts points only in Charge for example, and everything else is in traditionally Tech or Soldier skills, then Charge should be well weaker than a 'genuine biotic'.  I'm all for wishy-washy being penalised - which was what was also disappointing about Renegade/Paragon in ME3: wishy-washy, but that's another thread.

 

In general, I personally think that having all skills available as one massive pool is a job for the modders.

[Pasquale1234]

It seems to me that the archetypes are still relevant simply for the fact that not everyone is a biotic, so I'd say keep those six classes we've had all along, but definitely dispense with the class specific skill sets. Have a pool of combat/biotic/tech abilities, and allow any class archetype with that specialization to choose and customize freely from within those pools.

That sounds appealing at first blush, but I still think it could have consequences for enemy and battle design. Developers typically try to make their games very accessible for casual players who don't spend much time studying combat mechanics (and in some cases, don't even bother to read the skill descriptions).

I think it invites homogenization, like what we saw in ME3 with shields and barriers. I would like them to be distinct, and require different abilities to strip. But if you do that in a situation where players are allowed to choose from a pool of abilities, they could end up with builds that could be really ineffective versus some enemies.

[kajtarp]

Developers typically try to make their games very accessible for casual players who don't spend much time studying combat mechanics (and in some cases, don't even bother to read the skill descriptions).

I think it invites homogenization, like what we saw in ME3 with shields and barriers. I would like them to be distinct, and require different abilities to strip. But if you do that in a situation where players are allowed to choose from a pool of abilities, they could end up with builds that could be really ineffective versus some enemies.

 

Always the excuses.  If someone doesn't bother to read the descriptions, why should we bother?

 

As i said earlier, not everyone can be a veteran mass effect player. For those there are the basic classes predefined by Bioware. But for others, i don't think it will be hard to code a create custom class or customize class option below the basic predefined classes. Win-win for both. 

[Pasquale1234]

Always the excuses.  If someone doesn't bother to read the descriptions, why should we bother?

A developer who took that attitude probably wouldn't sell very many games. Actually, that's true of any business creating products for consumers.

Since developers need to make their products appealing to casuals, they build in safeguards and make sure that every.single.encounter in the game can be successfully completed with every.single.possible.build and squadmate combination. I'd like them to have the freedom to create broader variance in battles, thanks.

[Jay P]

Yes?

 

No?

 

Would not be a priority for me.

 

If added or not, I don't think it would affect my potential enjoyment of the game to any appreciable level.

[KainD]

I think it invites homogenization, like what we saw in ME3 with shields and barriers. I would like them to be distinct, and require different abilities to strip. But if you do that in a situation where players are allowed to choose from a pool of abilities, they could end up with builds that could be really ineffective versus some enemies.

 

Since developers need to make their products appealing to casuals, they build in safeguards and make sure that every.single.encounter in the game can be successfully completed with every.single.possible.build and squadmate combination. I'd like them to have the freedom to create broader variance in battles, thanks.

 

 

Ok so.. having a completely customize-able build that can fail is more homogenized than having presets that are effective in every scenario? What? 

 

If you want meaningful team customization then you have to have a certain composition or fail. 

If you want roleplaying experience with any squadmates then there can be no meaningful power interactions. 

If you want both roleplaying experience and a challenge you have to tie the challenge to mechanical skills of the player rather than their power choice. 

[Kakistos_]

It seems to me that the archetypes are still relevant simply for the fact that not everyone is a biotic, so I'd say keep those six classes we've had all along, but definitely dispense with the class specific skill sets. Have a pool of combat/biotic/tech abilities, and allow any class archetype with that specialization to choose and customize freely from within those pools.

I agree with this. One of my biggest pet peeves about ME2 and ME3 was that, as an Adept AKA Biotic Specialist, I could not use the Biotic Barrier and Charge powers without making them bonus powers. What I would like to see is the pure classes(full Biotic, full Tech) have access to all or most of their class specific abilities and as specialist being able to take them further but with trade off. Hybrid classes would be able to choose a specific number of abilities from each class with flexibility as a perk for not being as powerful as a pure Soldier or pure Biotic. Or something along those lines.

[kajtarp]

It seems to me that the archetypes are still relevant simply for the fact that not everyone is a biotic, so I'd say keep those six classes we've had all along, but definitely dispense with the class specific skill sets. Have a pool of combat/biotic/tech abilities, and allow any class archetype with that specialization to choose and customize freely from within those pools.

 

I'm just curious, how would that work? If i'm an engineer and choose biotic/combat specialization for example. then i'm trading the potential for maximizing my tech abilities for limited combat/biotic abilities? It sounds interesting, honestly i didn't think of such gameplay mechanic.

[kajtarp]

A developer who took that attitude probably wouldn't sell very many games. Actually, that's true of any business creating products for consumers.

Since developers need to make their products appealing to casuals, they build in safeguards and make sure that every.single.encounter in the game can be successfully completed with every.single.possible.build and squadmate combination. I'd like them to have the freedom to create broader variance in battles, thanks.

 

God. Learn to read. I said in the very same forum post that people who aren't Mass effect vets or cant be arsed to read the descriptions could use the default classes. I never wanted to get rid of the base classes. I just want to be able to customize my character, or create one with custom powers. what's so hard to understand?

[mickey111]

no, not if it's anything like the previous mass effect games. no military in the world will allow their troops to pick each skill to train like they're been offered on some kind of buffet table.

[FKA_Servo]

I'm just curious, how would that work? If i'm an engineer and choose biotic/combat specialization for example. then i'm trading the potential for maximizing my tech abilities for limited combat/biotic abilities? It sounds interesting, honestly i didn't think of such gameplay mechanic.

Not exactly what I meant. I was thinking more along the lines of - there's a pool of abilities that each proficiency can draw from. In order to use biotics, and draw from the biotic ability pool, you'd still need to roll an adept, vanguard, or sentinel, but then you just wouldn't be limited in the biotic abilities you can potentially access. Ditto for tech/combat capable classes. So to diversify, you'd still need a hybrid class.

It certainly needs more thinking through. There would still need to be a way to differentiate the classes somehow (eg maybe soldiers get lower cooldown penalties with a larger load out), and there would necessarily be "bad" builds, but I think it's a promising idea overall.

Playing ME3 MP just got me jealous of all the neat exclusive abilities. I always wanted to be able to skill into them on Shepard. Seems like a pool like this could be sort of a neat way to go about it.

 

I agree with this. One of my biggest pet peeves about ME2 and ME3 was that, as an Adept AKA Biotic Specialist, I could not use the Biotic Barrier and Charge powers without making them bonus powers. What I would like to see is the pure classes(full Biotic, full Tech) have access to all or most of their class specific abilities and as specialist being able to take them further but with trade off. Hybrid classes would be able to choose a specific number of abilities from each class with flexibility as a perk for not being as powerful as a pure Soldier or pure Biotic. Or something along those lines.

 

Yep - pretty much what I'm thinking.

[Hiemoth]

Personally, I would be against this idea as I kind of see it detracting from my enjoyment of the games. The thing with the classes and associated abilities is that it allows the developers to look at that class, think about how they approach combat and how does different function together in order create a good feel for the class. For example, knowing what is the basic approach for a Vanguard allows them to think about different ways those class skills can be used with that approach and have them better feed in together with regard to game-mechanics.

 

Now, in my experience with classless systems is that despite how much they tout giving freedom, the end results are usually pretty bland, and this is just with systems that allow skill and attribute points to be freely distributed. This is due to the fact that not only is it virtually impossible to balance out an enjoyable, unique approach for different builds as there are an insane amount of builds, the different ability combinations will not be considered as units due to the large number of possibilities.

 

So for me, a preferable approach would be a class system with a limited choice of different unique abilities within that class so that the there would be variability yet at the same time a distinct feel and balance to the class.

[KaiserShep]

I'm hoping that this game doesn't veer too far off from ME3. One of the nice things about it was that the bonus power did add a shade of flexibility, but giving the freedom to use any weapon while accounting for the caveat of its effect on cooldown management allowed me to give my playtime a good variety of ways to play. I'm not sure I care for the buffet table style of selecting various powers throughout the game. I'd prefer the return of selecting a specialization specific to the class. I rather like the focus.

[Pasquale1234]

God. Learn to read. I said in the very same forum post that people who aren't Mass effect vets or cant be arsed to read the descriptions could use the default classes. I never wanted to get rid of the base classes. I just want to be able to customize my character, or create one with custom powers. what's so hard to understand?

I guess I could ask you the same question. Casuals who can't be arsed to read descriptions could presumably still access custom build options.
 

It certainly needs more thinking through. There would still need to be a way to differentiate the classes somehow (eg maybe soldiers get lower cooldown penalties with a larger load out), and there would necessarily be "bad" builds, but I think it's a promising idea overall.

The bolded, underlined is the thing I wouldn't expect them to allow to happen. They've streamlined it a lot to make it easy for casuals (people who don't study game mechanics, and might not even read descriptions). I point to the homogenization of barriers and shields as an example - in previous incarnations, they were distinct and could not be effectively stripped by the same powers.

I don't know exactly how Bioware's QA team operates, but QA typically tries to test as many possible permutations of what users might do as they reasonably can. QA is typically all about risk management, where they focus the most attention on things that 1) have the greatest likelihood of happening, and 2) would have the greatest impact if they did happen.

So, if a tester with a "bad" build arrives at a mission s/he cannot complete with that "bad" build and squadmate combo, that typically means that changes to the mission / battle design would be made to accommodate that "bad" build. People tend to get pretty unhappy with products that allow them to shoot themselves in the foot.

Of course, every aspect of powers / skills / builds allowed will inform overall combat and individual battle design.

I guess I'm content with the 6 classes as they are. I feel that they provide a great variety of different ways to play, and don't feel that the added complexity of a skill buffet would make the game any better.

[Lady Artifice]

I enjoyed the symmetry of the clasd builds of the trilogy. They were variable, but distinct.

[AresKeith]

I agree with this. One of my biggest pet peeves about ME2 and ME3 was that, as an Adept AKA Biotic Specialist, I could not use the Biotic Barrier and Charge powers without making them bonus powers. What I would like to see is the pure classes(full Biotic, full Tech) have access to all or most of their class specific abilities and as specialist being able to take them further but with trade off. Hybrid classes would be able to choose a specific number of abilities from each class with flexibility as a perk for not being as powerful as a pure Soldier or pure Biotic. Or something along those lines.

 

That's because Charge is suppose to drain your barrier when you use it which would be a poor move for Adepts since they are squishy classes, where Vanguards are combat-oriented 

[FKA_Servo]

I enjoyed the symmetry of the clasd builds of the trilogy. They were variable, but distinct.

 

I would just like a way to use all the fun toys they introduced in MP in the campaign, really.

[AresKeith]

I would just like a way to use all the fun toys they introduced in MP in the campaign, really.

 

I do hope they incorporate the new abilities from the ME3 MP into ME:A 

[kajtarp]

and don't feel that the added complexity of a skill buffet would make the game any better.

 

No? Few weeks ago i made a playtrough with a soldier. Adrenaline Rush, Fortification, Inferno Grenade, Carnage via Gibbed Save editor. 3 of this was a bonus power, and normally i could only choose 1. I got rid of concussive shot and frag grenades. not that i dislike those powers, it's the opposite, i love them. but i wanted to have those powers once and it was fun.

 

marksman or devestator mode or havoc strike as my soldier main power instead of adrenaline rush? 

 

why can't we have fortification or blade armor or stimulant packs as a default power?

 

why can't i choose if i want concussive shot, carnage or proximity mine? 

 

or if i have frag grenade, or inferno grenade or sticky grenade? or ballistic blades / nightshade blades? not even mentioning cluster, lift or homing grenades.

 

dark channel, reave or annihilation field instead of singularity as an adept? 

 

poison strike vs biotic charge?

 

If we have such options to choose why does not make the game better? 

[Quarian Master Race]

I wait for enemies to come out from behind cover, and I watch my Sentry Turret kill them.

Plus, my cooldowns are super short. My whole build is devoted to reducing cooldowns.

Every shot I don't take is ammo I don't need to collect.

That sounds inefficient considering Sentry is among the weakest individual powers in the game and fights probably take an inordinate amount of time this way. It certainly isn't effective in comparative terms, so what is the roleplaying significance of this strategy? Is your character mortally afraid of enemy fire or using heavy recoiling weapons, necessitating indirect fire with the turret and allowing squadmates to carry most of the combat load? Are they an incompetent or ill trained fighter who doesn't know how to optimize all the tools at their disposal?

They're still there. Even 2 seconds is an eternity for a good player. That's nearly an entire clip from most automatics or two shots from a singleshot weapon with reload cancels. The types of typical fights in SP insanity where you face 3-4 weak troopers at a time can easily be ended in half as many seconds by a competent Shepard, and boss enemies taken down in 4-5. I'd think players who don't like the combat would be even more interested in doing so, since it minimizes the time between NPC conversations where the meat of the roleplaying is.

Why would you worry about collecting ammo if you needn't use the gun anyway? Not that ammo is ever a concern in ME3. I often play soldier builds where I use nothing but Marksman, grenades and a rifle/shotgun and never have issues with ammo. Crates are everywhere and the levels are so linear that you are practically forced to run over them to advance.
 

Cooldowns? What are those. Oh yeah the things people who lug big guns deal with.

Though I do love me some shotgun adept action.

You still have 2.5-3 second cooldowns at 200% PRS for most powers (exceptions being extremely short CD powers such as Cryo Blast). In that time I can fire 2-3 rounds from a Claymore/Widow/Javelin/Mantis (killing as many units), 3-4 from a BW, Wraith or (charged)Arc Pistol (killing as many units), 5 from a Valiant, 10 from a MM'ed Saber (killing as many unshielded units or half as many shielded ones), 22 from a Mattock, 26 from a Harrier, and 60 from a Hurricane. Why would I simply stand around doing nothing in that time period except looking at a cooldown meter when If I am good at the game I can end the fight much faster and more efficiently? As stated, the only rationale I can think of in this game is roleplaying an incompetent combatant.

 

More importantly, why does the playstyle of someone else in a single-player game bothers you so much?

I'm not bothered in the slightest. I'm simply curious as to the thinking that results in others reaching different conclusions about gameplay. If you want to talk about being "bothered", why my asking simple questions relating to why one is intentionally ignoring intended gameplay mechanics results in so many defensive responses from so many people is probably a more apt question.

 

Guns are boring. Almost every video game out there has them.

Really? Hmm, I play lots of GT6 and I've never used a gun in that game. Similarly, the most commonly mentioned titles on this forum other than ME games seem to be Dragon Age, CDPR/ Witcher and Elder Scrolls titles, most of which don't really have guns either. I look at sales records, and some of the most popular video games in history are Mario and Wii titles with no guns where you swing a controller about randomly to excercise, play golf or bowl. "Almost every" seems to be an objectively incorrect statement.

Besides, that's entirely subjective. Personally, I find the more involved gameplay of using a weapon and my skill with it to hit a target or targets to be much less "boring" than repetitive button1>button2 lockon power combo spam due to the ability to constantly seek and implement ways to improve results in the former but not the latter. Fortunately for me, in this game shooting is a much more effective playstyle as well.

 

[kajtarp]

I do hope they incorporate the new abilities from the ME3 MP into ME:A 

 

dont think it can be hard. even some guy managed to write such a mod for ME3. just go to Bonus Round IV.

 

http://forum.bioware...-sp-version-20/