184 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

if the asari adept is that great, why do people use other classes? honestly i can't even remember when did i see an asari character in my lobbies (gold or plat). 

 

Asari adept is great - plat solo material. 

[DarthLaxian]

well you have a point. some powers are actually made by the gear. its not the person whos cloaking but the armor itself. same for omni tool powers. but its not the same with biotics. you either have the ability or not.

 

Agreed, but why should a biotic be unable to wear the armor with the cloak? or use an omni-tool that can produce said powers?

 

Sure, you are either a biotic or you aren't (that's why IMHO that should be the only real choice to make (or not - maybe the protag should always be a biotic, he/she can just decide not to develop it, if the player doesn't want to use biotics))

 

greetings LAX

[Incantrix]

I want ME1 biotics back, they were amazing. 

 

In my opinion, no they weren't

 

It wasn't amazing using a skill and waiting 45 seconds to use it again. That was boring. The individual skills were powerful, I'll give you that but in essence, with that power it made using them very situational and for the most part playing an Adept was playing a pistol warrior with the occasional biotic skill. I personally, liked the way they went with biotics and combinations. I wish there were more combo's other than explosion though.

 

I liked that in ME3 as an Adept, you only ever had to touch your weapon if you had a weapon power (which was a waste of a slot on an adept). I actually felt like an Adept and not just a pistol warrior.

[goishen]

No they weren't

 

It wasn't amazing using a skill and waiting 45 seconds to use it again. That was boring. The individual skills were powerful, I'll give you that but in essence, with that power it made using them very situational and for the most part playing an Adept was playing a pistol warrior with the occasional biotic skill. I personally, liked the way they went with biotics and combinations. I wish there were more combo's other than explosion though.

 

I liked that in ME3 as an Adept, you only ever had to touch your weapon if you had a weapon power (which was a waste of a slot on an adept). I actually felt like an Adept and not just a pistol warrior.

 

 

Plus, you could use all of the abilities at the same time.   While it was kind'a neat, made the game into EZ-Mode.  I think the way that they're gonna go is by using way more tech explosions, seeing as how the biotic explosions are that much more powerful.  You hardly ever hear any tech explosions if you play MP, unless the player is just that good.  It really shouldn't be that way.  Hardly anybody plays tech experts, because they don't know the power that they have and are seen as weak because of it.  They're not, but they're seen that way.

[Pistolized]

Hi I just want to poke my head in and say I am FOR the class system, in case it hasn't been said enough in the previous 6 pages I didn't read.  Deviation within class bounds is also inadvisable to a point, as it negates the purpose and distinction of hybrid classes.  Not only are Biotic capabilities lore-based, but power availability follows logically from diverse training backgrounds.  This reinforces the 'hard-scifi' lean this universe has, and is necessary.  In short, class anarchy would make this 'fantasy-scifi' and is counter to the foundation of this universe.

[Killroy]

Hi I just want to poke my head in and say I am FOR the class system, in case it hasn't been said enough in the previous 6 pages I didn't read. Deviation within class bounds is also inadvisable to a point, as it negates the purpose and distinction of hybrid classes. Not only are Biotic capabilities lore-based, but power availability follows logically from diverse training backgrounds. This reinforces the 'hard-scifi' lean this universe has, and is necessary. In short, class anarchy would make this 'fantasy-scifi' and is counter to the foundation of this universe.

...Mass Effect is already sci-fi fantasy. Space magic is not hard sci-fi.

[rashie]

I want ME1 biotics back, they were amazing. 

It wasn't so much the design on biotics being amazing as how absurdly overpowered crowd control effects were with those physics, the adept in general took massive leaps forward after ME1 and to a certain degree on ME2 since you didn't have to rely on gun damage to kill things nearly as much.

[KainD]

It wasn't amazing using a skill and waiting 45 seconds to use it again. That was boring. The individual skills were powerful, I'll give you that but in essence, with that power it made using them very situational and for the most part playing an Adept was playing a pistol warrior with the occasional biotic skill. I personally, liked the way they went with biotics and combinations. I wish there were more combo's other than explosion though.

 

I just miss the feeling of power that ME1 biotics had, ME2-3 biotics do not compare at all. I can't lift the whole room with a single singularity anymore, or toss a Geth colossus, like I could in ME1. I want to be able to toss Atlas, Brute, Banshee, Geth Colossus / Prime etc. 

 

We actually discussed this a lot with other members of the forums and the best idea imo was the charged type biotics. Charge would work like this - if for example you just tap a biotic throw then it would be used quickly but merely knocks down a regular mook, but if you hold down the throw button and gather energy ( exposing yourself to some fire in the process ) you can unleash a more powerful throw and have enemies take serious damage, fly further + you would be able to throw larger enemies. The longer you charge a biotic power the more powerful it becomes with the most powerful charge stage being able to throw even shielded / armored targets and / or largest enemies. Same for any biotic power. 

 

I feel like this would be a win/win for both players that like to use powers dynamically to support their fast playstyle and players that want to unleash powerful biotics that require more time and effort to use. 

 

I liked that in ME3 as an Adept, you only ever had to touch your weapon if you had a weapon power (which was a waste of a slot on an adept). I actually felt like an Adept and not just a pistol warrior.

 

Not sure why you wouldn't use acolyte all the time, since it's the best weapon to strip shields which the only adept power that is good against shields is Flare, and it has a pretty long cooldown. You can even use powers while firing / charging acolyte. 

[Mad Cassidy]

The more open the system, and the more options I have to select powers and features, the better. I don't care for the enforcement of class distinction. It's already pretty arbitrary, barring the biotic/tech distinction.

 

I care about customization and fun. I don't like having to compromise between powers I love and powers I dislike when selecting a class. If I want to play a vanguard-type charging character, why should I be forced to take shockwave if it's a power I never really use? I'd rather be able to select something else that is more useful to my playstyle, and more enjoyable to use.

 

No-one loses when players are offered the opportunity to more fully customize their characters. If you want to follow the class archetypes to a tee, you are still free to do so. And in an SP campaign, perfect class balancing isn't such an issue. It doesn't matter that some power combinations may be a bit more powerful - that's what difficulty adjustment is for.

[Pistolized]

 

I disagree.  This type of game is very structured, and that is what makes it work.  This sort of thing is part of the foundation that holds the lore and game together.  Yes, its rigid and unforgiving in ways, but otherwise things begin to mush together.  The unbound choices of Skyrim for example was great, but I don't think it works here.  

 

You can't spend your whole life training to use Statis; and spend your whole life training to master sniper rifles; and spend your whole life in a technical profession learning Damping; and spend your whole life mastering the techniques to use Carnage properly.  If you dedicate your life to Biotics you may be able to master Statis some day.  If you dedicate yourself to technological warfare, you may be able to effectively manage your combat drone.  If you split your time you won't get the high end abilities but you can compensate in other ways.  THAT makes sense.  

[KainD]

I disagree.  This type of game is very structured, and that is what makes it work.  This sort of thing is part of the foundation that holds the lore and game together.  Yes, its rigid and unforgiving in ways, but otherwise things begin to mush together.  The unbound choices of Skyrim for example was great, but I don't think it works here.  

 

You can't spend your whole life training to use Statis; and spend your whole life training to master sniper rifles; and spend your whole life in a technical profession learning Damping; and spend your whole life mastering the techniques to use Carnage properly.  If you dedicate your life to Biotics you may be able to master Statis some day.  If you dedicate yourself to technological warfare, you may be able to effectively manage your combat drone.  If you split your time you won't get the high end abilities but you can compensate in other ways.  THAT makes sense.  

 

I agree, but we already have classes like sentinel that can use biotics, tech powers and sniper rifles ( well anyone can use any weapon ). Also sentinels can perfect every power that they have, and use it no worse than pure classes. 

 

Also what are high end abilities? Every power is no better / worse than any other, they just all have a different purpose. A high end ability is the one you invest points into and maximize the power. 

[Incantrix]

I just miss the feeling of power that ME1 biotics had, ME2-3 biotics do not compare at all. I can't lift the whole room with a single singularity anymore, or toss a Geth colossus, like I could in ME1. I want to be able to toss Atlas, Brute, Banshee, Geth Colossus / Prime etc. 

 

We actually discussed this a lot with other members of the forums and the best idea imo was the charged type biotics. Charge would work like this - if for example you just tap a biotic throw then it would be used quickly but merely knocks down a regular mook, but if you hold down the throw button and gather energy ( exposing yourself to some fire in the process ) you can unleash a more powerful throw and have enemies take serious damage, fly further + you would be able to throw larger enemies. The longer you charge a biotic power the more powerful it becomes with the most powerful charge stage being able to throw even shielded / armored targets and / or largest enemies. Same for any biotic power. 

 

I feel like this would be a win/win for both players that like to use powers dynamically to support their fast playstyle and players that want to unleash powerful biotics that require more time and effort to use. 

 

 

I quite like the charging system. I just really don't want to go back to the pistol warrior game-play from ME1.But a charging system would definitely add a bit a depth to the biotics system but it'd most likely have to be Adept specific. It would never work with Sentinals and Vanguards who have a more "in your face" approach to biotics. They'd need their own mechanics. 

[KainD]

 It would never work with Sentinals and Vanguards who have a more "in your face" approach to biotics. They'd need their own mechanics. 

 

Why not? Take vanguard for example. You could charge in and stagger a person that you charged to like usual, and start shooting, or charge up your charge for a few second and then knockdown an Atlas with it, or have multiple people fly in all directions on your arrival. And if your opponents are down or controlled by other abilities you could again spare a few seconds to charge up a nova that would just obliterate everything in a wide radius.

[Mad Cassidy]

I disagree.  This type of game is very structured, and that is what makes it work.  This sort of thing is part of the foundation that holds the lore and game together.  Yes, its rigid and unforgiving in ways, but otherwise things begin to mush together.  The unbound choices of Skyrim for example was great, but I don't think it works here.  

 

You can't spend your whole life training to use Statis; and spend your whole life training to master sniper rifles; and spend your whole life in a technical profession learning Damping; and spend your whole life mastering the techniques to use Carnage properly.  If you dedicate your life to Biotics you may be able to master Statis some day.  If you dedicate yourself to technological warfare, you may be able to effectively manage your combat drone.  If you split your time you won't get the high end abilities but you can compensate in other ways.  THAT makes sense.  

 

As KainD wrote above, we already have hybrid classes that mix fields. I just want a move away from what feels like arbitrary power options. It is not necessarily the case that you must be worse than average at using a weapon just because you're a biotic. Nor is it the case that you can't grasp tech powers. The clear-cut distinction you seem to be making between tech, biotic, and combat specialties is one that has never existed.

 

There's really no reason that a vanguard should know shockwave rather than throw or carnage, except from a gameplay perspective. And that perspective is only relevant if your aim is to create distinct classes with as many non-overlapping powers as possible. The cost of learning those powers is already made explicit because the player has invested points in upgrading that power/skill as opposed to another power/skill.

 

When I play a game, I want to maximize my personal enjoyment. I do so by playing a character that appeals to me, with powers that appeal to me. If I can pick those powers that interest me and build from there, that seems like a net win to me. Otherwise I risk getting stuck with a class that has one or more features that I don't care for. I'm not the kind of person who will replay a game with  each class - I have neither the time nor the inclination, so trimming the gameplay fat appeals to me. It also does not preclude anyone from playing a 'core class', so I don't really see what's lost.

[KainD]

No-one loses when players are offered the opportunity to more fully customize their characters. It doesn't matter that some power combinations may be a bit more powerful - that's what difficulty adjustment is for.

 

So I just wonder. I recently downloaded a mod that adds a variety of MP powers into SP to be used as bonus powers. I took Annihilation field on a vanguard and now every single charge/nova causes a biotic explosion, because enemies are always primed. If something like this power combo would be available by default that's completely fine? 

[Mad Cassidy]

So I just wonder. I recently downloaded a mod that adds a variety of MP powers into SP to be used as bonus powers. I took Annihilation field on a vanguard and now every single charge/nova causes a biotic explosion, because enemies are always primed. If something like this power combo would be available by default that's completely fine? 

 

Okay, so you have a power combo that works very well in combat. Congrats. Hopefully it's fun for you. You're not competing with anyone, so it's only really an issue for you as the player. If it makes the game easier, you're still free to up the difficulty or not select those powers.

 

From a gameplay balancing perspective, it's not ideal. You'd probably want to minimize the extremes of power synergies. So it may be a bit more work from a balancing perspective, but it's by no means impossible. Plus, it already seems fairly easy to set up biotic or tech explosions if you work even a little bit for it. Also, keep in mind that in your case, no work went into ensuring those powers couldn't be exploited together, because the game system / power system wasn't built around being able to select powers, so it's not in any way a realistic example of what would happen in my proposed system.

[KainD]

Okay, so you have a power combo that works very well in combat. Congrats. Hopefully it's fun for you. You're not competing with anyone, so it's only really an issue for you as the player. If it makes the game easier, you're still free to up the difficulty or not select those powers.

 

From a gameplay balancing perspective, it's not ideal. You'd probably want to minimize the extremes of power synergies. So it may be a bit more work from a balancing perspective, but it's by no means impossible. Plus, it already seems fairly easy to set up biotic or tech explosions if you work even a little bit for it. Also, keep in mind that in your case, no work went into ensuring those powers couldn't be exploited together, because the game system / power system wasn't built around being able to select powers, so it's not in any way a realistic example of what would happen in my proposed system.

 

I personally always like to find the most OP crap I can and stick with it. But what would be considered an exploit? 

[wizardryforever]

Personally, I don't think a classless system really fits Mass Effect. It works well in the Elder Scrolls and Fallout because you are playing a lone wolf kinda character, you are primarily relying on your own skills and maybe the occasional meat shield. My problem with that kinda system is that it leads to most characters ending up the same, especially since people will have no reason to try out new skills that they don't use much. Granted, some people never leave their comfort zones, while others like to experiment a lot, so there's no pleasing everyone.

 

I think it would work if there were subsets of skills (combat, biotic, tech), and depending on which class you picked, you got to pick a certain number of whichever subset(s) you have access to through that class. So that if you get 7 skills, a Vanguard could pick three combat skills, then three biotic skills, plus a signature skill of either one (Charge, Singularity, or Adrenaline Rush). You get flexibility like this, but classes are still a thing. If you simply must play the Dabbler™, then enforce that "jack-of-all-trades" nature, and you don't get a signature skill. Having complete access to all skills would destroy anything resembling balance as it's already been established.  And before you pull the "single player game" card, consider that balance is still a thing precisely because it comes down to design resources. If a character is OP, then quite a few people will never play anything else, essentially wasting the effort/money spent developing the non-OP characters. From a developmental standpoint, balance means getting the most out of the game. Besides, the game is more replayable if you have different options based on class and each class being unique and fun, instead of just being cut from the same cloth.

[Mad Cassidy]

I personally always like to find the most OP crap I can and stick with it. But what would be considered an exploit? 

 

I personally don't care what you do in your own game; whether you mod abilities or tweak save files, it makes no difference to me. Right now you're not 'using as intended', so I suppose you could label it an exploit (or not, it's kinda fuzzy). If it's simply part of the game structure and it works well, I don't think that's an exploit, unless someone's buggered up the code.

[Ahglock]

I personally don't care what you do in your own game; whether you mod abilities or tweak save files, it makes no difference to me. Right now you're not 'using as intended', so I suppose you could label it an exploit (or not, it's kinda fuzzy). If it's simply part of the game structure and it works well, I don't think that's an exploit, unless someone's buggered up the code.

 

Game designers do care what you do though.  Or put more accurately if what you do wrecks your enjoyment they care.  I'll use Elder Scrolls as an example.  In morrowind I could levitate, and fireball the crap out of land bound foes.  Its a single player game I had fun, it was awesome.  Lots of people bitched because since the option was there they either had to play stupid and not use an obvious tactic, or they used it and it was too easy for them.  Similarly they frequently had back doors, or shortcuts to the boss fight that might require a spell or skill set too exploit.  Again I thought it was awesome to find a secret back door, sneak in kill the boss while the rest of the dungeon is ignored.  People complained that it wasn't fun because they could cheat he system.  Now there is a back door but you can't open it except from the inside, so its just a reduce walking time door for when you complete the dungeon.  Totally lame IMO, going through the dungeon should be its own reward if you want to go through it, but if I want to feel clever by sneaking in and killing the boss then leaving I should be able to. And the list goes on for skills, places, spells, abilities that got cut because some people can't control themselves and their inability to reduces their enjoyment.

 

So to sum up, yeah I don't care what you do in your game.  But they do.

[kajtarp]

So I just wonder. I recently downloaded a mod that adds a variety of MP powers into SP to be used as bonus powers. I took Annihilation field on a vanguard and now every single charge/nova causes a biotic explosion, because enemies are always primed. If something like this power combo would be available by default that's completely fine? 

 

holy **** well done

 

Ok on a more serious note, i said i'd like to have some restrictions, like not to allow certain power combinations for one kit. I see no problem for a cqc adept or sentinel having annihilation field, but charge + annihilation field seems quite overpowered. getting huge explosions, having full shields and you can instantly use nova. I guess with charge evo 4 radius you can detonate 2-3 enemies at once with every charge, right? looks like invincible mode. maybe it could be ok, if annihilation field only primes after charge is done, or if charge would deactivate the field.

[KainD]

holy **** well done

 

Ok on a more serious note, i said i'd like to have some restrictions, like not to allow certain power combinations for one kit. I see no problem for a cqc adept or sentinel having annihilation field, but charge + annihilation field seems quite overpowered. getting huge explosions, having full shields and you can instantly use nova. I guess with charge evo 4 radius you can detonate 2-3 enemies at once with every charge, right? looks like invincible mode. maybe it could be ok, if annihilation field only primes after charge is done, or if charge would deactivate the field.

 

You should try it it's very fun. But as I said before there can be only 1 biotic explosion per power use, so you can't have 3 explosions from a single charge, even if it hits and area, same with nova. Still the explosion radius is big so it damages all the enemies anyway along with the original power. 

[Pistolized]

You wouldn't take classes out of D&D would you? (or Neverwinter Nights / KOTOR / Pillars of Eternity / Dragon Age / Divinity:OS / ...WoW)

 

They are there for a reason.  I apparently can't accurately describe the reasons but classes and their forced restrictions (like powers) are a good thing.  

[Ahglock]

You wouldn't take classes out of D&D would you? (or Neverwinter Nights / KOTOR / Pillars of Eternity / Dragon Age / Divinity:OS / ...WoW)

 

They are there for a reason.  I apparently can't accurately describe the reasons but classes and their forced restrictions (like powers) are a good thing.  

 

There are plenty of RPGs that don't use classes and can pull off fantasy settings like D&D.  Gurps, savage worlds, hero system come to mind quickly. They don't feel like D&D but is that classes, the HP system, AC, specific monsters, spells, settings, some combination of the above?  The real question for me is would mass effect feel like mass effect without classes?  I think it would, but honestly I'm not sure.

[kajtarp]

There are plenty of RPGs that don't use classes and can pull off fantasy settings like D&D.  Gurps, savage worlds, hero system come to mind quickly. They don't feel like D&D but is that classes, the HP system, AC, specific monsters, spells, settings, some combination of the above?  The real question for me is would mass effect feel like mass effect without classes?  I think it would, but honestly I'm not sure.

 

Having classes are ok, and some iconic abilities for the various classes, if we can customize the rest.