3173 réponses à ce sujet

[Commander Rpg]

I don't get how anyone could defend this decision. Bad decision was bad. 

Selfless bootlickers?

[Liamv2]

Pretty much what Grav said. They gave us 12 mins warning. 12. That is utter bullshit. People who went on holiday, live in another time zone or were simply at work were utterly screwed. We all had to piece things together via this thread, groups and PM's until Vroom made his forum.

[bEVEsthda]

And I think if the community is really healthy and the type of community Bioware is actively seeking--people who are playing their current games, which is the only purpose of the community, then it doesn't matter if there's lull periods.  People will come back if they are interested.  You don't need to have conversations in the downtime periods.  

 

If people form their own definitions of the community and create their own bonds, that's fine, but that's not the purpose of a corporate owned forum to handle, and in some ways can be counter to what they want, and I don't think they owe anybody anything.  I think people are misinterpreting things.

 

Well, it is Bioware's forums, after all. They can do what they please. No, they don't owe anybody anything.

 

That's all well and true (or almost,.. or formally,..). But chew over and taste those phrases for awhile. ...And then wait until the penny drops.  (if it doesn't, don't bother, we have nothing to discuss)

 

A corporation or company can decide whatever they want about their activities. And there always seem to be an advertising manager who wants this or wants that. But it doesn't mean that things work out exactly and only within the limits as envisioned. A further added complication is that as what the exact "purpose" of a forum, existing through two decades, change through different policies and ideologies, reality don't immediately automatically adapt airtight. So purpose and intentions is one thing, the real world is another thing. In the real world, everything goes about in its own way. Whatever you think.

 

What matter is that to a corporation? Whatever they choose to make of it, of course. But if you don't understand the world around you, as you live in, there will always be a price to pay for action. It doesn't matter what intentions you have. (Actually, I think EA and Bioware have a sort of narrow grasp of this; they don't communicate.)

One proof - that there is a price - is in the discussion you have here. You could say that you loose the argument by default. You're proven wrong already by having to argue your case.

 

The only existing question is what the price will be. EA's whole history is total disinterest in that. That's why they always win the consumers' worst company award. Of course, I don't mean to say that closing down OT will earn them that award. No, it's the blind, clueless and blundering way they conduct their business.

[YohkoOhno]

 

 

 

1. 12 minutes should have been a week at least.
2. Communicate with us after the fact, more than just one poorly thrown together excuse for an explanation.
3. Simply have said a month or 3 in advance "We've been thinking of cutting the Off-Topic to have fans use other avenues, we will keep you informed"
4. More than 12 minutes.
5. Do things that people going to school for PR or similar fields don't deem dumb.

 

 

These arguments are more based on your hope to be able to argue to change their minds, rather than how it was handled.  As far as Public Relations goes, I think they handled it as well as they could--they were going to do it, so they did it, with a neutral sounding announcement, and not giving people time to form some kind of weird counter protest.  They have kept the forum up for archiving.  Part of the goal of PR is to not just do things you like, but to also handle bad news.  In this case, I think they did the best job they could, outside of actually doing what you want.

 

 

Well, it is Bioware's forums, after all. They can do what they please. No, they don't owe anybody anything.

 

That's all well and true (or almost,.. or formally,..). But chew over and taste those phrases for awhile. ...And then wait until the penny drops.  (if it doesn't, don't bother, we have nothing to discuss)

 

 

 

A corporation or company can decide whatever they want about their activities. And there always seem to be an advertising manager who wants this or wants that. But it doesn't mean that things work out exactly and only within the limits as envisioned. A further added complication is that as what the exact "purpose" of a forum, existing through two decades, change through different policies and ideologies, reality don't immediately automatically adapt airtight. So purpose and intentions is one thing, the real world is another thing. In the real world, everything goes about in its own way. Whatever you think.

 

What matter is that to a corporation? Whatever they choose to make of it, of course. But if you don't understand the world around you, as you live in, there will always be a price to pay for action. It doesn't matter what intentions you have. (Actually, I think EA and Bioware have a sort of narrow grasp of this; they don't communicate.)

One proof - that there is a price - is in the discussion you have here. You could say that you loose the argument by default. You're proven wrong already by having to argue your case.

 

The only existing question is what the price will be. EA's whole history is total disinterest in that. That's why they always win the consumers' worst company award. Of course, I don't mean to say that closing down OT will earn them that award. No, it's the blind, clueless and blundering way they conduct their business.

 

Well, I've "chewed on the words", and I see what you're trying to say (and even if not, I'm still going to answer the question).  You're arguing that they should think of people's feelings, as well as the deeper consequences, and I agree.  But that also goes both ways, and I think people need to understand these forums are a privilege, not a right.

 

True, a forum can end up having deeper meaning to its members, and the reality of what a forum is exists despite what the corporation or organization wants.  The argument then is what should the company do about it.  And the reality goes both ways--regardless of the fans wishes for any forum, it is still owned by a company and serves their purposes.  If it stops serving their purposes, the owner will act in a certain way, and thinking the forum will suddenly become a democracy is a bit naive.  

 

And if the forums are being de-emphasized by Bioware, is it just because the world is changing and social media is changing the role of forums?  Is it because some people's bad behavior has made people reconsider the value of forums and what effect they have on the games?  Are some fans narcissists and believe they are more important and are equal to the developers?  Are lawsuits and bad media coverage making people more cautious?  Have lapsed fans who don't like the games anymore still hang around here after when most people would have just left?  All these may play a factor into things.

 

I am quite certain the people making the decisions here--whether it is Bioware's moderators, corporate divisions of Bioware or EA, etc., calling the shot--have weighed all the pros and cons and figured things out.  So I think they realize there is a price, the initial announcement recognizes that it might be unpopular.  Whether that price affects their bottom line or future sales--somehow, I doubt it.  

 

Truth in argument is regardless of my having to "argue my case"--as it would if I argued facts to somebody who eschewed facts.  I'm not sure what your point is.  Anyway, as a forum you should welcome alternative points of view.  Based on feedback I received, at least a few people agree with my points, and debating and pontificating on a forum is not a win-lose situation.

 

Then we get to the "EA is incompetent/bad/evil" tired argument.  It's sad that EA is winning the "worst company award" when there's a lot worse things where people's actual lives are ruined and people only care about--in the larger perspective--a couple of video games.  The EA and Bioware business arguments are pretty much outside of the whole perspective of how the forums are handled.  

 

My main point in all of this was just to say--I think in part forums are not as strong as they used to be and companies are rethinking them--and that if people really want community ties, they should be using a forum that's not "by the fans, for the fans", because ultimately they serve (or are meant to serve) the primary organization and if the use of them deviates, they are likely to be shut down or changed.  Hopefully the Vroom forums do that and teach people a valuable lesson--as soon as the community starts interests outside the primary topic (or the company changes its own mission statement and evolves into something folks may not agree with), it might be time to create spin-offs.

 

This isn't just affecting Bioware--Wizards of the Coast is killing their Magic and D&D forums--and I think this is a trend.  We'll see what the future holds...but I'll bet a few years from now perhaps the forums will only exist as a reddit type structure or on similar services.  It's a repeat of when newsgroups and e-mail lists were replaced by 

forums and blogs.  

[Gravisanimi]

These arguments are more based on your hope to be able to argue to change their minds, rather than how it was handled.  As far as Public Relations goes, I think they handled it as well as they could--they were going to do it, so they did it, with a neutral sounding announcement, and not giving people time to form some kind of weird counter protest.  They have kept the forum up for archiving.  Part of the goal of PR is to not just do things you like, but to also handle bad news.  In this case, I think they did the best job they could, outside of actually doing what you want.

That's the exact opposite really. You are putting intentions to my words that I do not have.

 

It's that I would prefer they tell me they are going to kick me in the balls before I do it, so, you know.

 

I can brace myself.

 

Maybe write on the side of the boot "Ball Kicking Shoes", so I at least know to maybe run off or go put on a codpiece. Because I know I can't reason with them anymore, once they have decided to put on these Ball Kicking Shoes.

[Liamv2]

These arguments are more based on your hope to be able to argue to change their minds, rather than how it was handled.  As far as Public Relations goes, I think they handled it as well as they could--they were going to do it, so they did it, with a neutral sounding announcement, and not giving people time to form some kind of weird counter protest.  They have kept the forum up for archiving.  Part of the goal of PR is to not just do things you like, but to also handle bad news.  In this case, I think they did the best job they could, outside of actually doing what you want.

 

THEY GAVE US 12 MINUTES WARNING!! 12!!!

 

I'm fine with them closing off topic. They have the right to do so but there is ways of doing it without being a dick about it.

[SlottsMachine]

 

I'm fine with them closing off topic. They have the right to do so but there is ways of doing it without being a dick about it.

 

Yeah, obviously I'm going to miss the place but I'd be fine with it as well if they would've explained what the thought process was for doing so. I know they'd prefer there consumer base to all be mindless sheep that can be herded from one pre-order line to the next, but to me its seems counter productive to ****** off even a very small portion of consumers over something relatively minor. 

[BroBear Berbil]

I wasn't the most active of OT posters, but I just want to say I miss you all. This forum, up until OT was closed, was the only place I posted anything other than the occasional post on Steam. Unfortunately I wasn't around during the 12min window that they closed the forum either.

 

Having been a member of this community since '09 I got the message that BioWare wants me to move on, so I am. I hardly even check this place anymore, and it's just as well. The magic of the old BSN hasn't been there for a long time imo.

[EarthboundNess]

Yup. I'd been without proper internet for nearly two weeks, and I still instinctively checked up on the BSN through my mobile most days.

And all that did was make me sigh twice. Once at the frozen in time Off topic that's linked to via my phone's favourites. And the other after coming here and still finding nothing from BioWare.

There's probably a few more sighs in there for the posts somehow trying to defend Bioware's example of how not to PR in just 12 minutes, but hey ho.

[bEVEsthda]

Well, I've "chewed on the words", and I see what you're trying to say (and even if not, I'm still going to answer the question).  You're arguing that they should think of people's feelings, as well as the deeper consequences, and I agree.  But that also goes both ways, and I think people need to understand these forums are a privilege, not a right.

 

True, a forum can end up having deeper meaning to its members, and the reality of what a forum is exists despite what the corporation or organization wants.  The argument then is what should the company do about it.  And the reality goes both ways--regardless of the fans wishes for any forum, it is still owned by a company and serves their purposes.  If it stops serving their purposes, the owner will act in a certain way, and thinking the forum will suddenly become a democracy is a bit naive.  

 

And if the forums are being de-emphasized by Bioware, is it just because the world is changing and social media is changing the role of forums?  Is it because some people's bad behavior has made people reconsider the value of forums and what effect they have on the games?  Are some fans narcissists and believe they are more important and are equal to the developers?  Are lawsuits and bad media coverage making people more cautious?  Have lapsed fans who don't like the games anymore still hang around here after when most people would have just left?  All these may play a factor into things.

 

I am quite certain the people making the decisions here--whether it is Bioware's moderators, corporate divisions of Bioware or EA, etc., calling the shot--have weighed all the pros and cons and figured things out.  So I think they realize there is a price, the initial announcement recognizes that it might be unpopular.  Whether that price affects their bottom line or future sales--somehow, I doubt it.  

 

Truth in argument is regardless of my having to "argue my case"--as it would if I argued facts to somebody who eschewed facts.  I'm not sure what your point is.  Anyway, as a forum you should welcome alternative points of view.  Based on feedback I received, at least a few people agree with my points, and debating and pontificating on a forum is not a win-lose situation.

 

Then we get to the "EA is incompetent/bad/evil" tired argument.  It's sad that EA is winning the "worst company award" when there's a lot worse things where people's actual lives are ruined and people only care about--in the larger perspective--a couple of video games.  The EA and Bioware business arguments are pretty much outside of the whole perspective of how the forums are handled.  

 

My main point in all of this was just to say--I think in part forums are not as strong as they used to be and companies are rethinking them--and that if people really want community ties, they should be using a forum that's not "by the fans, for the fans", because ultimately they serve (or are meant to serve) the primary organization and if the use of them deviates, they are likely to be shut down or changed.  Hopefully the Vroom forums do that and teach people a valuable lesson--as soon as the community starts interests outside the primary topic (or the company changes its own mission statement and evolves into something folks may not agree with), it might be time to create spin-offs.

 

This isn't just affecting Bioware--Wizards of the Coast is killing their Magic and D&D forums--and I think this is a trend.  We'll see what the future holds...but I'll bet a few years from now perhaps the forums will only exist as a reddit type structure or on similar services.  It's a repeat of when newsgroups and e-mail lists were replaced by 

forums and blogs.  

 

 

"Then we get to the "EA is incompetent/bad/evil" tired argument.  It's sad that EA is winning the "worst company award" when there's a lot worse things where people's actual lives are ruined and people only care about--in the larger perspective--a couple of video games.  The EA and Bioware business arguments are pretty much outside of the whole perspective of how the forums are handled."

 

Is this a comment in passing? An opinion offered as we brush by the subject? If so, then thank you for that.

That some companies conspire to make the world a worse place, all while no one pays attention, is indeed lamentable. But it doesn't have much to do with what we're talking about. The award is a consumer award. It reflects customer experience. The purpose of the award is not to make the world aware of corporate environmental criminals or anything like that. The purpose is to make companies aware of customer dissatisfaction, that they don't have their act together.

 

Please don't get "bad", "evil" mixed up or bundled with "incompetent".

As for "tired", it should have been tired at least fifteen years ago! That it isn't, is not my fault. EA makes their own bed.

 

"I am quite certain the people making the decisions here--whether it is Bioware's moderators, corporate divisions of Bioware or EA, etc., calling the shot--have weighed all the pros and cons and figured things out."

 

If one really could be confident about that, then they would never have won any "worst company award", not even the first. That was my point, since you didn't get it.

 

"My main point in all of this was just to say--I think...  <Snip>"

 

I suggested somewhat the same, a few pages back, page 115, #2870.

However, they're not closing down the Forums. They're just closing down OT.

[YohkoOhno]

 

"I am quite certain the people making the decisions here--whether it is Bioware's moderators, corporate divisions of Bioware or EA, etc., calling the shot--have weighed all the pros and cons and figured things out."

 

If one really could be confident about that, then they would never have won any "worst company award", not even the first. That was my point, since you didn't get it.

 

 

Nope I got it.  What you miss is my point, that a lot of people on the Internet have little perspective and think about video games more than anything else.  Even the consumerist themselves, in the award winner, lament the sad state of affairs that people think a video game company is deserving of that award.

 

http://consumerist.c...-year-in-a-row/

 

And you also ignore that they didn't win this year, so it's improving.  Heck, maybe part of that is by focusing on their real customers and not the lapsed ones by streamlining the forums.  

[YohkoOhno]

Yeah, obviously I'm going to miss the place but I'd be fine with it as well if they would've explained what the thought process was for doing so. I know they'd prefer there consumer base to all be mindless sheep that can be herded from one pre-order line to the next, but to me its seems counter productive to ****** off even a very small portion of consumers over something relatively minor. 

 

To be fair, I think the key thing is are those people consumers?  I see a lot of complaints here by folks saying "well, the ONLY reason I come here is for the off-topic forums".  If that's the case, something is wrong.  It may not be about "mindless sheep", rather that they want to deal with fans that actually play their games, rather than either lapsed fans who still stick around here even though they haven't played anything since Baldur's gate, or non-fans who just come to meet others.

 

As far as the though process goes--nobody is owed 100% transparency, especially when it comes to a tangential business decision that doesn't affect their core--the games people play.  I think the key here is fans sometimes get too involved and want to know things like financial numbers, who made certain decisions, etc, when that's really not our business.

[YohkoOhno]

Having been a member of this community since '09 I got the message that BioWare wants me to move on, so I am. I hardly even check this place anymore, and it's just as well. The magic of the old BSN hasn't been there for a long time imo.

That's actually the best thing people can do.  Don't like something, and the people who are doing the action have made up their minds, then move on.

 

Too many people get too emotionally attached to certain things--it's like the serenity prayer--accept the things you cannot change.

[bEVEsthda]

Nope I got it.  What you miss is my point, that a lot of people on the Internet have little perspective and think about video games more than anything else.  Even the consumerist themselves, in the award winner, lament the sad state of affairs that people think a video game company is deserving of that award.

 

http://consumerist.c...-year-in-a-row/

 

And you also ignore that they didn't win this year, so it's improving.  Heck, maybe part of that is by focusing on their real customers and not the lapsed ones by streamlining the forums.  

 

Nope. I didn't miss that at all. I was originally planning to mention it (or rather that the voters weren't representative), but for brevity I didn't. You see, - it doesn't matter!  Can't you see that?

Not a bit. The point is still that EA won that award. They did that for reasons. Whether you, I (I've never voted for EA) or anybody else thinks they deserve it or not doesn't matter. In the only context that is relevant for my point - of EA and their customers - they did deserve it.

 

Yes, one can always hope for improvements. And one can patiently think that there maybe are improvements.

Until one gets disappointed yet again.

 

"...maybe part of that is by focusing on their real customers and not the lapsed ones by streamlining the forums."

 

That's a funny comment. It would be so interesting to know what you think it means.

[Commander Rpg]

It sounds like Lonelybook418 and Yohko Ohno are employees in the company. The first liking the second's comment, by the way.

I'm not saying they certainly are, but if they were they should stop using common userIDs and get back to their silent roles.

And If they weren't, I'd stay shut anyway if I was them, they're defending Nero's burning of Rome saying that there were too many trees that caught fire.

[SlottsMachine]

To be fair, I think the key thing is are those people consumers?  I see a lot of complaints here by folks saying "well, the ONLY reason I come here is for the off-topic forums".  If that's the case, something is wrong.  It may not be about "mindless sheep", rather that they want to deal with fans that actually play their games, rather than either lapsed fans who still stick around here even though they haven't played anything since Baldur's gate, or non-fans who just come to meet others.

 

As far as the though process goes--nobody is owed 100% transparency, especially when it comes to a tangential business decision that doesn't affect their core--the games people play.  I think the key here is fans sometimes get too involved and want to know things like financial numbers, who made certain decisions, etc, when that's really not our business.

 

I would say the vast majority are consumers, just look under everyone's avatar. I personally mainly came here for the Off-Topic and on the old site just to shoot the **** with my friends, but I would stumble into the ME/DA boards on occasion. I can say that if it wasn't for the boards I probably wouldn't have bought the ME3 DLC, me being here even if it was not in the way BioWare originally intended still gave them access to me as a consumer that they will not have otherwise.

 

And yes I agree that nobody is owed 100% transparency, but there is a world of difference between one vague statement riddled with PR speak and telling us every little detail.  

[Puddi III]

Seriously, why would we even be here if we didn't have any interest or potential interest in BioWare games? That's some grade A nonsense.

[Puddi III]

Yup. I'd been without proper internet for nearly two weeks, and I still instinctively checked up on the BSN through my mobile most days.

And all that did was make me sigh twice. Once at the frozen in time Off topic that's linked to via my phone's favourites. And the other after coming here and still finding nothing from BioWare.

There's probably a few more sighs in there for the posts somehow trying to defend Bioware's example of how not to PR in just 12 minutes, but hey ho.

There's one more for the "what video game music are you listening too?" thread.

Off-topic's current theme.

[N7M]

It sounds like Lonelybook418 and Yohko Ohno are employees in the company. The first liking the second's comment, by the way.
I'm not saying they certainly are, but if they were they should stop using common userIDs and get back to their silent roles.
And If they weren't, I'd stay shut anyway if I was them, they're defending Nero's burning of Rome saying that there were too many trees that caught fire.

Spoiler

 

 

This closure seems more akin to helping a group of beggars along than what you're suggesting.

[Commander Rpg]

This closure seems more akin to helping a group of beggars along than what you're suggesting.

Sorry, I'm not receptive neither to liars nor to panders.

[Kroitz]

Sorry, I'm not receptive neither to liars nor to pandas.

 

I don´t believe that.

 

[Inquisitor Recon]

This closure seems more akin to helping a group of beggars along than what you're suggesting.

"Citizens of Rome, the senate has agreed to help the poor of the city by closing the forums. Now they can no longer beg there. The problem is solved, Rome is saved."

[Shadeling]

When a gaming website like this offers an off topic area to talk about whatever, it truly reflects well upon the developers (or the publishers in this case and EA, ya'll know you could use as many good feels as you can get after all of your 'worst company in the USA' awards to date, seriously!)

 

I'm the first one to admit that I'm a huge cynic when it comes to EA but that's not without good reason, and I can't help but think this ultimate decision has EA's paws all over it, for whatever cold-blooded corporate reason you can come up with, at least one of them probably applies.

 

I've only posted in the off topic Lobby section a couple times myself, but I've lurked there so many more countless times than that and I've enjoyed enough of the thread discussions there to be able to say it is truly a shame that EAware has reached a decision where they feel it's clearly something that ultimately benefits themselves overall and their userbase doesn't even enter in to the equation, which is exactly what long time gamers like myself expect to see whenever EA is involved.

 

It's just sad.

[Commander Rpg]

"Citizens of Rome, the senate has agreed to help the poor of the city by closing the forums. Now they can no longer beg there. The problem is solved, Rome is saved."

Nero: "The people is mine, I have they!"

 

*plays the Morra with Rome's people*

 

Nero: "SiX! SEVEN! THREE!"

People: "TEN! TWO! TWO!"

 

Nero: "See? When you let the people play, they fall for it immediately"

 

Nero: "FIVE! SEVEN! EIGHT!... *to the servants* Make another game, they'll buy it (ambiguous)

Nero: "SIX! SIX! SIX! You're pricks!"

People: *Murmurs*

 

Nero: "Ignoble rabble! This way you reward the sacrifices made for you? Recede! Prove yourself men, and tomorrow Rome will be reborn more beautiful and superb than before!"

 

People: "Well done!"

 

Nero: "Thanks!...The word "superb" had success! The people, when they hear difficult words, they become very affectionate! I will repeat that to them...!

Nero: "More beautiful and superb than before".

People: "Well done!"

Nero: "Thanks".

 

Nero: "More beautiful and superb than before" *a little faster*

People: "Well done!" *a little faster*

Nero: "Thanks!" *a little faster*

 

*more and more faster*

 

Nero: "More beau..."

People: "'done!!"

 

Nero: "M."

People: "W..."

 

Nero: "Well done!"

People: "Thanks!"

 

 

Nero: "See? The people, when they get used to say you're a good man, even when you do nothing, you're always good"

 

Nero *gestures*

People: "Wwwwwwweee..."

Nero: "Your ass!"

 

Nero: "Tomorrow great distributions will be delivered, consisting in: wine, oil, flypaper and gold. Panem et circentibus!"

One guy in the crowd "Panem et circenses!"

Nero: "Owww a guy speaking greek!

 

Nero: "Here I am for you! I will give you everything, just don't ask me anything..."

[Liamv2]

Spoiler

 

 

This closure seems more akin to helping a group of beggars along than what you're suggesting.

 

Lul wut. It's more like kicking a beggar in the face because they asked for ****.