179 réponses à ce sujet

[cruc1al]

I agree that overall cryo is not as good as other ammo powers apart from shredder. Still, it can be useful if you're using it right, and it can be fun to use. It's not like the game is hard or anything - most of the time, you should just do what's most fun for you (though for many people that's the same as doing what's most effective).

And the only thing disruptor ammo would be useful against for vanguard would be synthetics, and it would make geth missions a joke. You already get +50% shield damage from SMG and shotgun shield piercing, therefore when using shotgun against organics with barriers/shields incendiary ammo is already the better option damage-wise (not to mention the panic effect).

Actually, this brings me to why cryo ammo is useful for a vanguard - geth. As I said, disruptor ammo would be OP against geth. Incendiary ammo doesn't earn you anything. Therefore, cryo ammo is the only viable balanced option for vanguards on geth missions. Plus, it would be silly to use Heavy Disruptor ammo at close range, because the exploding synthetics would get you killed.

As for shockwave... One reason is cooldown. Another reason is that it's easy to miss, and that makes you cautious of using it for fear of a wasted cooldown. Third, the effect on any single enemy don't last for more than a a few seconds. If it packed a bit more punch it might be more useful. It is actually quite good for is tearing down shields while keeping enemies at bay if you use it many times in a row, but tbh it takes some patience. Fourth, the casting animation is longer than for other biotics, which means you're exposed to more enemy fire than with, say, pull.

Modifié par cruc1al, 29 avril 2010 - 10:39 .

[Samurai_Wahoo]

cruc1al wrote...


Actually, this brings me to why cryo ammo is useful for a vanguard - geth. As I said, disruptor ammo would be OP against geth. Incendiary ammo doesn't earn you anything. Therefore, cryo ammo is the only viable balanced option for vanguards on geth missions. Plus, it would be silly to use Heavy Disruptor ammo at close range, because the exploding synthetics would get you killed.

I love the Cryo Ammo against all Synthetics.  Especially the ones that the Mercs use,  they come in bunched.  Inferno will strip them all, my team freezes them, and I fly in with Area Charge.  It is satisfying.......

[tonnactus]

JaegerBane wrote...


Tonnactus, until they're actually frozen, there is no damage increase. They only freeze once the defences are down,

That happens after only shot when using a shotgun.So you can charge even pyros with it.

Modifié par tonnactus, 29 avril 2010 - 10:56 .

[Hahren]

JaegerBane wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...


And yes, I'm aware you can charge a frozen enemy.

Frozen enemies take double damage from your weapons.You complained that cyro doesnt increase the damage that a vanguard did,this was wrong.

Tonnactus, until they're actually frozen, there is no damage increase. They only freeze once the defences are down, which is the same stage where biotics do it better. Every other ammo power in the game actually does damage to defences barring Shredder (which is crud). Comprende?

You make it sound as if enemies in the red die instantly, and aren't a threat. It can still take several shots to kill some enemies even in health. Also biotics don't have a huge AoE even when you evolve them to it. Sometimes you can get lucky and pull several at once. I have found that to be rare. Since cryo ammo doesn't make biotics mutually exclusive, I like to use both for more battle field control.

[Gravbh]

Hahren wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...


And yes, I'm aware you can charge a frozen enemy.

Frozen enemies take double damage from your weapons.You complained that cyro doesnt increase the damage that a vanguard did,this was wrong.

Tonnactus, until they're actually frozen, there is no damage increase. They only freeze once the defences are down, which is the same stage where biotics do it better. Every other ammo power in the game actually does damage to defences barring Shredder (which is crud). Comprende?

You make it sound as if enemies in the red die instantly, and aren't a threat. It can still take several shots to kill some enemies even in health. Also biotics don't have a huge AoE even when you evolve them to it. Sometimes you can get lucky and pull several at once. I have found that to be rare. Since cryo ammo doesn't make biotics mutually exclusive, I like to use both for more battle field control.

I hear all the time that "once an enemy is down to health he's dead anyway. This isn't the case at all. Enemies have just as much health as they do armor/shields/barrier. The only exception are the boss mobs that have 2 types of defenses.

Modifié par Gravbh, 30 avril 2010 - 02:10 .

[tonnactus]

Krogans and klixen have an amazing amount of health.Now way they go down after 2 shots like some people claimed there.

[JaegerBane]

Hahren wrote...
You make it sound as if enemies in the red die instantly, and aren't a threat. It can still take several shots to kill some enemies even in health. Also biotics don't have a huge AoE even when you evolve them to it. Sometimes you can get lucky and pull several at once. I have found that to be rare. Since cryo ammo doesn't make biotics mutually exclusive, I like to use both for more battle field control.

Not that they die instantly - just that anyone with Reave or Pull or Throw or any type of biotic effect essentially removes them from combat in the space of a second. You certainly don't need to be 'lucky' to get a few at once with stuff like Improved Shockwave or Area Pull, all you actually need is a ability to comprehend that there is more than one enemy standing there.

And if your point is that Cryo Ammo somehow allows you to get more people at once than biotics, the only possible way you could achieve this is by using Squad Cryo Ammo, which I've already fully admitted that I don't have a problem with.

[JaegerBane]

tonnactus wrote...

Krogans and klixen have an amazing amount of health.Now way they go down after 2 shots like some people claimed there.

Tonnactus, if this was directed at me, I'd appreciate it if you stuck to what I said here. Nowhere did I claim that klixen go down in two shots (and they're a poor example anyway, as you rarely encounter whole mobs of them and therefore are better suited to being Pulled than Frozen).

IIRC, it was you who started trying to bring in numbers of shots into this (some nonsense about how it takes a single shot from a shotty to remove defences? Just how many enemies in the game can you honestly claim to have removed *all* of their defences with one shot?)

[JaegerBane]

Gravbh wrote...
I hear all the time that "once an enemy is down to health he's dead anyway. This isn't the case at all. Enemies have just as much health as they do armor/shields/barrier. The only exception are the boss mobs that have 2 types of defenses.

The problem is enemies that are down to health spend a large amount of their time floating or getting slammed into walls when exposed to biotics and not shooting. Enemies that still have defences do not. It's not like it's a difficult concept to grasp.

[cruc1al]

JaegerBane wrote...

Gravbh wrote...
I hear all the time that "once an enemy is down to health he's dead anyway. This isn't the case at all. Enemies have just as much health as they do armor/shields/barrier. The only exception are the boss mobs that have 2 types of defenses.

The problem is enemies that are down to health spend a large amount of their time floating or getting slammed into walls when exposed to biotics and not shooting. Enemies that still have defences do not. It's not like it's a difficult concept to grasp.

Yep, and enemies frozen by cryo spend a few seconds on the ground doing nothing. Since there's no cooldown, you can easily lock down at least three enemies with just level 1 cryo and a heavy pistol. You couldn't do the same with level 1 pull.

[HTTP 404]

each to their own, my gripe with using cyro isn that it costs 10 but that it actually costs 13. it takes three points in incendiary to use it. I did a playthrough with heavy incendiary and sqaud cyro and I thought it worked great with my squadmates and I. However, thinking about wanting to use warp ammo instead of incendiary also eliminates cyro in my book.

[Samurai_Wahoo]

JaegerBane wrote...


Not that they die instantly - just that anyone with Reave or Pull or Throw or any type of biotic effect essentially removes them from combat in the space of a second. You certainly don't need to be 'lucky' to get a few at once with stuff like Improved Shockwave or Area Pull, all you actually need is a ability to comprehend that there is more than one enemy standing there.

I may be misunderstanding what is going on, but I think you are not using Cryo to it's full benefit. 

You are talking about removing the enemy with a biotic, but with Cryo, your squad can keep the enemy out of the fight.  This leaves you with your squads ability to strip another enemy's defense instead of waiting around for a cool down after using Pull/Throw/ or whatevere else.

IMO, I think it makes more sense to kill or keep the enemy grounded with an ammo ability and saving a defense stripping ability for another enemy.  I only used Throw and Pull a handfull of times just for S'n'Gs.  I would probably say that I used my squad's defense stripping ability 95% of the time just because Cryo was a constantly activated CC ability and I did not have to waste a cooldown on Throw or Pull.

[swk3000]

Gravbh wrote...

I hear all the time that "once an enemy is down to health he's dead anyway. This isn't the case at all. Enemies have just as much health as they do armor/shields/barrier. The only exception are the boss mobs that have 2 types of defenses.

Enemies that have only Health left are as good as dead. Methods vary according to playstyle and class, but the end result is always the same: an enemy down to Health is as good as dead. Whether you shoot them, Pull/Throw, Cryo+Melee, etc. is up to you, but enemies who are down to health pose no real significant threat anymore. Assuming, of course, that you spend the extra few seconds it takes to actually kill them off.

[DeathScepter]

so with vanguards, WHich is better heavy Reave or AoE Reave?

[Arawn-Loki]

Kahmun wrote...

I played through ME1 as a Vanguard, and loved every second of it.  Losing a couple of weapon classes and heavy armor in exchange for biotic powers was a great tradeoff; Lift gave me very effective form of crowd control, while Barrier and Warp made me a killing machine.

I started ME2 as a Vanguard hoping for a similar experience, however, I've found this "new" Vanguard rather lacking.  Maybe I'm not far enough in the game (or perhaps I'm just bad) but I've found the new Charge ability to be little more than a flashy way to kill myself, unless I use it on an enemy who's either alone or only has one ally nearby.  The new armor system ensures I take just as much damage as a sniper or an adept, even though by definition I have to be up close to be truly effective.  I no longer have Barrier or the shield recharge ability (can't remember the name off the top of my head) to compliment my armor and shields.  These factors, combined with the fact that I'm limited to carrying 15 shotgun shells total, mean that for the most part combat involves me hiding behind cover across the room and sniping with my pistol.

Is anyone else having a similar experience?  I'm only about four hours into the game, mayble it evens out later...but right now I feel like the combat system would be much more rewarding for a long-range class like the Infiltrator.

'Charge' is mostly good for hitting outliers (people on the edge of mobs), killing them, and then getting into cover in a direction which exposes your enemy's rear or flank. So, if there are three enemies, charge on the left or the right, not the center, and then get into cover in a way that exposes their side.

Better yet, if there are multiple enemies dispersed over an area, some closer and some farther, always aim for the furthest enemy, then get into cover in a way that exposes his allies' rear. 

There are two benefits of this strategy. The first is that enemies will have less cover. But the second and better  is that enemies will be torn whether to attack Shepard or his squadmates. Like, 2 will turn around and fight Shepard and two will keep moving toward your squadmates. Which means Shepard takes less damage, which means he can kill the two focusing on him quickly and then assist his allies.

'Charge' isn't about high-risk/high reward combat as it is about outflanking people.

so with vanguards, WHich is better heavy Reave or AoE Reave?

Never used Reave. If it is like Warp, then heavy Reave. But you should probably focus on Charge and ammo powers like Warp Ammo.

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 01 mai 2010 - 06:06 .

[deaddecoy]

Arawn-Loki wrote...

'Charge' isn't about high-risk/high reward combat as it is about outflanking people.

Charge is also very useful for getting away. I remember there were quite a few times where I YMR or Harbinger were right on top of me while Shepherd was in the red. At that point, I'd charge across the field and get just enough shielding to find cover. 

[Arawn-Loki]

deaddecoy wrote...

Arawn-Loki wrote...

'Charge' isn't about high-risk/high reward combat as it is about outflanking people.

Charge is also very useful for getting away. I remember there were quite a few times where I YMR or Harbinger were right on top of me while Shepherd was in the red. At that point, I'd charge across the field and get just enough shielding to find cover. 

I was thinking that, but for some reason I didn't write it: paradoxically 'Charge' is good for falling back or getting away. In fact, they should call it 'Retreat'.

One of the problems with the Vanguard is that people approach it like they approach a Soldier.

A Vanguard is to a soldier like a Infriltrator is to an engineer.

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 01 mai 2010 - 07:52 .

[Omega-202]

DeathScepter wrote...

so with vanguards, WHich is better heavy Reave or AoE Reave?

Area Reave is by far more useful.  

You sacrifice a 25% damage boost for the ability to hit multiple enemies.  It works wonders for those times when Charging would simply be suicide.  

An extra ammo power isn't necessary at all.  Warp ammo would only really help against Collectors and with a well upgraded Eviscerator, you already "One shot + One melee" drones.  

Reave really shines on missions with Krogan, Vorcha and Klixen (enemies with a LOT of health).  If you hit them with Reave while they're in the red, you drain their health at a very generous rate and restore your own.  If you hit an unarmored Krogan with it, it will stun him for a bit, and restore your health fast enough that you can simply go toe to toe with another Krogan and not be in all that much danger of dying.  

[cruc1al]

Omega-202 wrote...
Reave really shines on missions with Krogan, Vorcha and Klixen (enemies with a LOT of health).  If you hit them with Reave while they're in the red, you drain their health at a very generous rate and restore your own.  If you hit an unarmored Krogan with it, it will stun him for a bit, and restore your health fast enough that you can simply go toe to toe with another Krogan and not be in all that much danger of dying.  

You can go toe to toe with unarmored krogan without reave easily. Probably takes three shots and possibly melee with Katana up close even without an ammo power. With incendiary, two shots + melee. With cryo... problem solved.

[deaddecoy]

cruc1al wrote...

You can go toe to toe with unarmored krogan without reave easily. Probably takes three shots and possibly melee with Katana up close even without an ammo power. With incendiary, two shots + melee. With cryo... problem solved.

You could go toe to toe with armored krogan without reave easily too, given you have a claymore : D. 

Modifié par deaddecoy, 01 mai 2010 - 09:10 .

[cruc1al]

^ given you exploit the reload trick

[BeresaadSoldier]

cruc1al wrote...

^ given you exploit the reload trick

I don't understand how that's exploiting when it was a developer who suggested it. Every weapon can perform this trick. It just so happens that the claymore benefits the most from it because it has a single shot capacity before reloading. You can do it with the widow too, but you lose the benefit of zooming in.

And yes, you can go toe to toe with an armored krogan provided there aren't any other enemies around.

[cruc1al]

Why does it matter if a developer suggested it or not? It's still a trick. Hence exploiting. There's supposed to be an animation and the trick is not to show the animation. I don't care if anyone uses it, personally I just don't like making the game any easier than it already is by means of what I consider a bug.

[Omega-202]

cruc1al wrote...

Omega-202 wrote...
Reave really shines on missions with Krogan, Vorcha and Klixen (enemies with a LOT of health).  If you hit them with Reave while they're in the red, you drain their health at a very generous rate and restore your own.  If you hit an unarmored Krogan with it, it will stun him for a bit, and restore your health fast enough that you can simply go toe to toe with another Krogan and not be in all that much danger of dying.  

You can go toe to toe with unarmored krogan without reave easily. Probably takes three shots and possibly melee with Katana up close even without an ammo power. With incendiary, two shots + melee. With cryo... problem solved.

Note I said "another Krogan", as in "one is flipping out from Reave and a second one is charging you".  Usually, to go "toe-to-toe" with a fully armored Krogan on Insanity you need to make some use of Charge and/or cover.  If you're Reave draining off of someone you don't have to worry about it because you can outlast a fully armored Krogan by simply regaining health faster than their shotgun can get rid of it.  

[Tlazolteotl]

Heh ... I'm sure a well timed barrier will also do the job. It's just not the most ideal of plans.