179 réponses à ce sujet

[cruc1al]

^ Oops, I fail at reading comprehension.

[BeresaadSoldier]

cruc1al wrote...

Why does it matter if a developer suggested it or not? It's still a trick. Hence exploiting. There's supposed to be an animation and the trick is not to show the animation. I don't care if anyone uses it, personally I just don't like making the game any easier than it already is by means of what I consider a bug.

The fact you're getting stronger doesn't mean the game is getting easier though. An example would be all these fights that you cannot win without using cover at one point or another. There's always ways to make the game harder, but it seems the perspective of people differs. While I like to take full advantage of the weapon power of the claymore and win fights that seem impossible without the use of cover, others like to avoid upgrades and fight at low level or without squadmates in your case.

The reload trick simply makes the Claymore a better choice for weapon specialist vanguards - much like the widow is to an infiltrator or the revenant to a soldier. Without the reload trick, the claymore is in the same league as the eviscerator and possibly even worse. And it doesn't make sense to pick up a worse shotgun and at the same time deprive yourself of a long range weapon (sniper/assault rifle). Hence why the reload trick evens out the playing field. Yeah, you can 1 shot some enemies, but you have to be a crack shot. Missing a round with the claymore in close quarters could likely mean your death so there's advantages and disadvantages.

[Tlazolteotl]

Be that as it may, an exploit is still an exploit, however you justify it.

Say I'm playing protoss vs terran in starcraft 1, and I decide to make a high risk attack that I shouldn't have a chance of winning.

I make some of my observers sit on top of their turrets so they spin around and fail to shoot, and I win.

A progamer in korea would probably get fired from their team for doing that.

[cruc1al]

Yeah you're probably right, Claymore is kind of underpowered relative to the other special weapons unless you use the trick. Still, I find Vanguard more than powerful enough with katana/eviscerator; potentially faster at killing than a revenant-soldier or a widow-infiltrator. On my previous two vanguard playthroughs I've taken the claymore just because it's "the thing" for a pure vanguard, but if I played vanguard again I'd probably take vindicator to replace my SMG, because I wouldn't use the claymore reload trick.

@tlazolteotl
Good thing ME2 is not a competetive multiplayer game

Modifié par cruc1al, 01 mai 2010 - 11:37 .

[Tlazolteotl]

cruc1al wrote...

Good thing ME2 is not a competetive multiplayer game

Well, yeah, there's that ... which is why I don't mind when people hack their game or play on casual.
But I do compete in multiplayer games .. and frankly ... it's probably Bioware's fault that the shotguns aren't adequately balanced (in favour of the claymore, as it was obviously intended to be better).

A competetive multiplayer game couldn't get away with being poorly balanced .. at least not without balance patches attempting to fix the problem.

But I do get offended when people respond to "how best to build this squadmember" threads with the X+A exploit.
'cos clearly the question is concerning how to play the game better, not how to cheat.

[BeresaadSoldier]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Be that as it may, an exploit is still an exploit, however you justify it.
Say I'm playing protoss vs terran in starcraft 1, and I decide to make a high risk attack that I shouldn't have a chance of winning.
I make some of my observers sit on top of their turrets so they spin around and fail to shoot, and I win.
A progamer in korea would probably get fired from their team for doing that.

Even if the programmer himself/herself gave you the clue as to using it? Hmmm I doubt that very much  See, it was a developer's idea to use this trick and that's how the community found out about it. Call me biased, but I think it would've been implemented in the shotgun mechanics somehow, if they had more time. Speculations abound though. Really, there is no need to justify using an in-game mechanical trick that actually requires a lot of practice to master when there are people who mod their game to have 2 bonus powers or shotguns with rate of fire over 9000. It's all relative.

[cruc1al]

@Tlazolteotl

What do you think when people respond with advocating, say, reave on a non-biotic class? It should be impossible, but it's obviously bioware's intention that you can get any bonus power on any class. Same in ME1. Still, it could be considered "cheating" as much as skipping an animation could be considered "cheating" (given that the devs suggested it).

@Beresaad

You don't get people responding to "How to best build X class" with "well, just mod your shotguns to have unlimited ammo and fire 9000 rpm".

Modifié par cruc1al, 01 mai 2010 - 11:53 .

[BeresaadSoldier]

Yeah, since there's no clear cut balance as in competitive multiplayer games it's hard to judge what is cheating and what isn't cause we don't have a a proper definition. The subject of getting a biotic power on an engineer for example, who is clearly a pure tech class kinda contradicts the lore. Shepard's 30 or something and if he/she was a biotic, it would've manifested at the start of the playthrough. I'm guessing it's more of a consistency issue for the die-hard fans and it has been established that there are a few more errors like this throughout the game.

@cruc1al Of course not. But you have to take into account the claymore reload trick doesn't work for everyone. If you put in the time and effort to master it, the claymore can be deadly. But for people who play on Xbox it's very difficult, if not close to impossible to use that trick. So in their case other shotguns will be better than the claymore.

Modifié par BeresaadSoldier, 01 mai 2010 - 11:59 .

[cruc1al]

On another note, maybe we could just disregard the whole reload "trick" issue with, you know, mass effect fields. :S

[BeresaadSoldier]

If they had stuck with the ME1 system of overheating and no ammo, there would've been no need for tricks and whatnot. Not that using the reload trick is a must, but it brings about dynamic combat with more shooting and less cover, which is what ME1 had plenty of.

Modifié par BeresaadSoldier, 02 mai 2010 - 12:06 .

[Tlazolteotl]

ME1 combat was ass, though ... a good RPG, yes, but unworthy of competing with real shooter games ...

I mean the question is: is ME1 gameplay worth recording?

[BeresaadSoldier]

ME1 combat sucks compared to ME2, we both agree on that. However, ME1 combat is more dynamic in that it uses less cover and more action (unlimited ammo). That's why when you mix less cover with faster pace and ME2 combat mechanics it's visually appealing (at least in my opinion). ME1 gameplay alone is not worth recording imo.

[Tlazolteotl]

Hmm ... I guess your preferences are clear, at least with shooters ...
Generally speaking, run & gun is more interesting than campers.

However, as a "brain" gamer, I think skills such as multi-tasking and strategy are more important to develop than twitch.
Sure, reactions are important, but being able to lodge hundreds of actions per minute and manage 6 bases and 3 armies at once is the pinnacle of awesome.
Although, I used to compete in street fighter tournaments, too .. and I'm somewhat tempted to get back into it with the release of super street fighter 4, but to get good enough to win comps takes a lot of practice.
Too busy nowadays ... so I prioritise strategy games over reflex-based games.

That's the reason why I consider starcraft the best of spectator sports ... even >10 years after being released, and only running at 640x480, it's still the best computer game to watch on TV.
And ... why I consider Modern Warfare 2 videos not worth watching at all.

The mass effect 2 videos I upload reflect my preferences, too. I emphasize timing, combos, and battlefield positioning over high risk gameplay.
Mainly 'cos of my history with competitive gameplay, where winning and losing are yardsticks, and looking good while doing high risk stuff is simply not very smart.
Also, they're meant to be a video walkthrough of sorts, where following my tactics anyone can do what I do. Maybe not as efficiently, but those strategies are reliable.

[DaVanguard]

BeresaadSoldier wrote...

Yeah, since there's no clear cut balance as in competitive multiplayer games it's hard to judge what is cheating and what isn't cause we don't have a a proper definition. The subject of getting a biotic power on an engineer for example, who is clearly a pure tech class kinda contradicts the lore. Shepard's 30 or something and if he/she was a biotic, it would've manifested at the start of the playthrough. I'm guessing it's more of a consistency issue for the die-hard fans and it has been established that there are a few more errors like this throughout the game.

@cruc1al Of course not. But you have to take into account the claymore reload trick doesn't work for everyone. If you put in the time and effort to master it, the claymore can be deadly. But for people who play on Xbox it's very difficult, if not close to impossible to use that trick. So in their case other shotguns will be better than the claymore.

Im on the 360 and im try out the claymoore rerload trick the only problem that I see is hearing the click meleeing and aiming at a new target all at the same time. but i is masterable on the 360

[trucoolbrees]

DaVanguard wrote...

BeresaadSoldier wrote...

Yeah, since there's no clear cut balance as in competitive multiplayer games it's hard to judge what is cheating and what isn't cause we don't have a a proper definition. The subject of getting a biotic power on an engineer for example, who is clearly a pure tech class kinda contradicts the lore. Shepard's 30 or something and if he/she was a biotic, it would've manifested at the start of the playthrough. I'm guessing it's more of a consistency issue for the die-hard fans and it has been established that there are a few more errors like this throughout the game.

@cruc1al Of course not. But you have to take into account the claymore reload trick doesn't work for everyone. If you put in the time and effort to master it, the claymore can be deadly. But for people who play on Xbox it's very difficult, if not close to impossible to use that trick. So in their case other shotguns will be better than the claymore.

Im on the 360 and im try out the claymoore rerload trick the only problem that I see is hearing the click meleeing and aiming at a new target all at the same time. but i is masterable on the 360

Easy way to get the timing down to the trick is wait until your next to a weapons locker, practice until your out of ammo , access the locker again, and repeat. Really helped me get the timing down, now it's almost second nature.( I play on 360 by the way )

[JaegerBane]

Samurai_Wahoo wrote...
I may be misunderstanding what is going on, but I think you are not using Cryo to it's full benefit. 

You are talking about removing the enemy with a biotic, but with Cryo, your squad can keep the enemy out of the fight.  This leaves you with your squads ability to strip another enemy's defense instead of waiting around for a cool down after using Pull/Throw/ or whatevere else.

IMO, I think it makes more sense to kill or keep the enemy grounded with an ammo ability and saving a defense stripping ability for another enemy.  I only used Throw and Pull a handfull of times just for S'n'Gs.  I would probably say that I used my squad's defense stripping ability 95% of the time just because Cryo was a constantly activated CC ability and I did not have to waste a cooldown on Throw or Pull.

The problem with the above theory is that it doesn't make any sense. For one thing, using non-squad Cryo ammo on a Vanguard means that you're not using Inferno ammo - an ammo that packs a heavy punch, eats through the most common defence in the game and crowd controls fleshies. You're just not gaining anything in that situation, as you're passing up a damage + cc ammo for purely CC. Sure, it has it's uses on synths, but only in the sense that it isn't fire ammo - which is hardly a recommendation. Any other kind of ammo in the game barring Shredder can say the same, only they actually help too.

Claiming that you're wasting cooldowns on powers like Pull doesn't really make much sense either, as with no upgrades at all it takes 3 seconds to recharge. It's not like it makes much difference.

Ultimately, an ammo type that does not help with defences is of debatable use in this game. On a class that has no abilities to handle defences beyond ammo, it becomes pointless.

[JaegerBane]

cruc1al wrote...

I agree that overall cryo is not as good as other ammo powers apart from shredder. Still, it can be useful if you're using it right, and it can be fun to use. It's not like the game is hard or anything - most of the time, you should just do what's most fun for you (though for many people that's the same as doing what's most effective).

And the only thing disruptor ammo would be useful against for vanguard would be synthetics, and it would make geth missions a joke. You already get +50% shield damage from SMG and shotgun shield piercing, therefore when using shotgun against organics with barriers/shields incendiary ammo is already the better option damage-wise (not to mention the panic effect).

I'm not really sure what point you're making here though. I agree that Disruptor ammo would make the geth missions quite easy, but as you say, it's not like the game is particularly difficult. That said, you seem to be using the argument about ease of play to defend cryo ammo, so as I said, I'm not really sure what your point is.

Actually, this brings me to why cryo ammo is useful for a vanguard - geth. As I said, disruptor ammo would be OP against geth. Incendiary ammo doesn't earn you anything. Therefore, cryo ammo is the only viable balanced option for vanguards on geth missions. Plus, it would be silly to use Heavy Disruptor ammo at close range, because the exploding synthetics would get you killed.

Cryo ammo is only a better option because it's not incendiary. That's it. There's nothing inherent in cryo ammo that makes it a better anti-synth option, so to claim it's good because it's the only thing you have is a bit silly. Indeed, that's my whole point, really - Cryo ammo is only ever a better option for anyone when their primary ammo isn't suited for the mission. Hell, the only class who gains anything at all from it is the Soldier, who has no other CC options. I would prefer to have an ammo that is actually *useful*, rather than an ammo that I can use when my specialised ammos aren't suited. For a class that already has methods of CC, an ammo that does an inferior job is soemthing that I don't need.

As for shockwave... One reason is cooldown. Another reason is that it's easy to miss, and that makes you cautious of using it for fear of a wasted cooldown. Third, the effect on any single enemy don't last for more than a a few seconds. If it packed a bit more punch it might be more useful. It is actually quite good for is tearing down shields while keeping enemies at bay if you use it many times in a row, but tbh it takes some patience. Fourth, the casting animation is longer than for other biotics, which means you're exposed to more enemy fire than with, say, pull.

These are good points. Ironically that was the reason why I suggested Vanguards should have had Throw, not Shockwave. That said, Shockwave is markedly more suited for handling multiple targets at short range, so I guess there is a case for Shockwave on Vanguard. Yes, it can be a bit more difficult to hit but once it hits Improved it rivals Singularity in CC when used at short range, punching through cover and causing mayhem all round.

To be honest this is starting to get into another issue I have with the classes, in that I personally think the combination classes in ME2 have a really mishmashed skillset that don't really make sense (Sentinels, for some reason, use techs to crowd control and biotics to damage, when in fact the disciplines tend to work better the other way round, while the supposedly stealthy infiltrators are given the very subtle ability of hurling exploding fireballs).

[Samurai_Wahoo]

JaegerBane wrote...

The problem with the above theory is that it doesn't make any sense. For one thing, using non-squad Cryo ammo on a Vanguard means that you're not using Inferno ammo - an ammo that packs a heavy punch, eats through the most common defence in the game and crowd controls fleshies. You're just not gaining anything in that situation, as you're passing up a damage + cc ammo for purely CC. Sure, it has it's uses on synths, but only in the sense that it isn't fire ammo - which is hardly a recommendation. Any other kind of ammo in the game barring Shredder can say the same, only they actually help too.

Wait, I thought I said I was using Squad Cryo and then I would activate Inferno for myself.  Sorry if I did not clarify.

JaegerBane wrote...

Claiming that you're wasting cooldowns on powers like Pull doesn't really make much sense either, as with no upgrades at all it takes 3 seconds to recharge. It's not like it makes much difference.

I really can not understand why it does not make sense.  It is not difficult to understand.  In my experience as a VG seconds matter.  I want my squad to use their best defense stripping abilities as soon as possible and not wait 3 or less seconds to use the good stuff.  Squad Cryo gets rid of the use of Pull or anyother CC in the game.  Sure, there are moments when Throw shines, but that is few and far between.   

JaegerBane wrote...
Ultimately, an ammo type that does not help with defences is of debatable use in this game. On a class that has no abilities to handle defences beyond ammo, it becomes pointless.

So, what is the use of CC biotic powers.  CC Biotics are only good against defenseless enemies, same as Cryo.  The BIG difference though, Cryo comes with a one time cooldown, it is always active, once the enemy freezes they are dead and it frees up a squady's more useful talents (Warp/Energy Drain/Reave/OL).  I can understand if you are looking a solo build that Cryo may not have a use.  I would not know.

Modifié par Samurai_Wahoo, 05 mai 2010 - 09:37 .

[JaegerBane]

Samurai_Wahoo wrote...

Wait, I thought I said I was using Squad Cryo and then I would activate Inferno for myself.  Sorry if I did not clarify.

Samurai, I've lost count of the number of times that I've said that I have no problem with squad cryo. My issue is that it only becomes useful at 10 points evolved. No other ammo type is saddled with this. Before that, it's just a naff CC ability that requires you to use your gun to do the job a power would normally do.

I really can not understand why it does not make sense.  It is not difficult to understand.  In my experience as a VG seconds matter.  I want my squad to use their best defense stripping abilities as soon as possible and not wait 3 or less seconds to use the good stuff.  Squad Cryo gets rid of the use of Pull or anyother CC in the game.  Sure, there are moments when Throw shines, but that is few and far between.   

What are you talking about? How does the Vanguard using Pull stop your squad from using their anti-defence measures?

So, what is the use of CC biotic powers.  CC Biotics are only good against defenseless enemies, same as Cryo.  The BIG difference though, Cryo comes with a one time cooldown, it is always active, once the enemy freezes they are dead and it frees up a squady's more useful talents (Warp/Energy Drain/Reave/OL).  I can understand if you are looking a solo build that Cryo may not have a use.  I would not know.

It's not 'always active' at all. It only actually effects things when you're actually hitting an undefended target with gunfire. Biotics, on the other hand, either can snatch or just barrel through cover, require little in the way of aim, tend to have rather major results and tend to make sure the enemy is floating up in the air ripe for shooting rather than lying motionless behind cover. Not to mention the fact that a frozen opponent getting Warped poses no threat to their allies, while a Pulled opponent getting Warped is essentially a floating bomb.

[cruc1al]

@ JaegerBane

I was defending cryo as a useful and fun ammo power, and not the most useful and most effective ammo power. As I said, I agreed that overall, it's not.

My point was that having disruptor ammo on a vanguard would be overkill in terms of game balance (why make an easy game even easier) on geth missions. Hence, cryo ammo on vanguard is a good choice in terms of game balance. And yes, you're right that it's useful against geth because incendiary is not, but also because it's better than nothing. The whole thing is that I'm just defending cryo as a good ammo power for a vanguard.

I disagree with you about cryo ammo not being useful. You say you use it just because it's the only one you have available. Maybe you should play around with it a bit more - shotgun+cryo is great because it often freezes a fully protected opponent at point blank range, since some of the pellets get through the protection. IMO it's a safer than other ammo powers if you're not killing enemies with 1 shot + 1 melee.

JaegerBane wrote...

To be honest this is starting to get into another issue I have with the classes, in that I personally think the combination classes in ME2 have a really mishmashed skillset that don't really make sense (Sentinels, for some reason, use techs to crowd control and biotics to damage, when in fact the disciplines tend to work better the other way round, while the supposedly stealthy infiltrators are given the very subtle ability of hurling exploding fireballs).

I agree about infiltrators... They shouldn't even need incinerate because they have sniper rifles for anti-armor duty. Maybe it could be balanced by giving their passive an inherent bonus to anti-armor damage with sniper-rifles and pistols, because they know which spot on the enemy's armor to hit for maximum damage or something. Then again, they have disruptor ammo so they don't need overload, they have cryo ammo so they don't need cryo blast, so which power should replace incinerate? Maybe the game needs separate powers for anti-shield/synthetic overload and CC-overload (weapon overheat, stun). The infiltrator could have the latter and it could have a 4.5 second cooldown like cryo.

Modifié par cruc1al, 05 mai 2010 - 10:18 .

[JaegerBane]

cruc1al wrote...

@ JaegerBane

I was defending cryo as a useful and fun ammo power, and not the most useful and most effective ammo power. As I said, I agreed that overall, it's not.

My point was that having disruptor ammo on a vanguard would be overkill in terms of game balance (why make an easy game even easier) on geth missions. Hence, cryo ammo on vanguard is a good choice in terms of game balance. And yes, you're right that it's useful against geth because incendiary is not, but also because it's better than nothing. The whole thing is that I'm just defending cryo as a good ammo power for a vanguard.

I disagree with you about cryo ammo not being useful. You say you use it just because it's the only one you have available. Maybe you should play around with it a bit more - shotgun+cryo is great because it often freezes a fully protected opponent at point blank range, since some of the pellets get through the protection. IMO it's a safer than other ammo powers if you're not killing enemies with 1 shot + 1 melee.

As I said, I don't doubt that it has it's uses. All I've been saying all along is that there were better choices available to the class.

Frankly I'm a bit frustrated with the way skills were handed out in the game. You're forced to take ammo powers that you may not want and the set up for skills in the combination classes is horrible. I think I much preferred the method in the original ME where all techs had Sabotage and Overload while all Biotics had Lift and Throw, as they were bread and butter abilities. Now the selection of skills seems to be dictated by having pretty patterns across the classes rather than having a well synergised skillset.

I've already played with Cryo, 3 Normal runs and 2 Insanity runs as a Vanguard, and I *hate* cryo ammo. The number of times targets just fell behind cover or enemies just defrosted and shot me in the back just became infuriating.

I agree about infiltrators... They shouldn't even need incinerate because they have sniper rifles for anti-armor duty. Maybe it could be balanced by giving their passive an inherent bonus to anti-armor damage with sniper-rifles and pistols, because they know which spot on the enemy's armor to hit for maximum damage or something. Then again, they have disruptor ammo so they don't need overload, they have cryo ammo so they don't need cryo blast, so which power should replace incinerate? Maybe the game needs separate powers for anti-shield/synthetic overload and CC-overload (weapon overheat, stun). The infiltrator could have the latter and it could have a 4.5 second cooldown like cryo.

I do think the introduction of ammo powers has royally messed up the system that Bioware made in the original ME of the Combat/Biotic/Tech trees, to the extent that the combat specialist in the game also happens to be the best at manipulating defences like a tech specialist.

I'm thinking of playing an Adept. I tend to have a very agressive playstyle which was initially perfectly suited for the Vanguard, but the lack of basic push biotics on him began to grate not far into the game. On th other hand, the last time I played as an Adept, I really began to despise Singularity compared to the Godliness of Charge and how ridiculously fragile the little puke was. Vanguards are easily my fave class - I just wish they had a better thought out skill set.

[cruc1al]

Fair enough, I can see you don't like cryo ammo then . I think it's fun.

Yeah, ammo powers would function better as equipment that any class can use. There could still be restrictions as to which class can use which ammo power the best, for example infiltrators could evolve disruptor ammo to heavy disruptor with an infiltrators-only tech upgrade, vanguards could upgrade incendiary to inferno etc.

I think powers like Concussive shot, Flashbang etc would also function better as equipment, and concussive shot could remain exclusive to soldiers by making it possible to fire it only from the assault rifle. Ammo for concussive shot and other grenades / grenade-like projectiles could be picked up on missions like heavy weapon ammo.

Regarding adepts, the clue is to use all powers (except perhaps shockwave) effectively and in the right situations. I think the best way to play adept is to try to balance out your power usage - don't spam any single ability; rather, think tactically. Use pull + throw, use pull + weapon damage, set up warp explosions with singularity when there are 3+ enemies around; warp barriers, and warp armor of tougher opponents but use heavy pistol for weaker opponents so you don't have to wait the cooldown to end to use pull or throw... et cetera. Singularity spam and warp explosions gets boring, while using all the abilities imaginatively is so much fun.

Modifié par cruc1al, 05 mai 2010 - 10:45 .

[Samurai_Wahoo]

JaegerBane wrote...

Samurai, I've lost count of the number of times that I've said that I have no problem with squad cryo. My issue is that it only becomes useful at 10 points evolved. No other ammo type is saddled with this. Before that, it's just a naff CC ability that requires you to use your gun to do the job a power would normally do.

My apologies, I missed that.  IMO, I think all ammo powers have that issue.  If I can not take it to 10 then I do not have a use for it

JaegerBane wrote...
What are you talking about? How does the Vanguard using Pull stop your squad from using their anti-defence measures?

Ahh, I assumed we were not talking about the Vanguard's Pull.  Kind of brings up another issue.  Iirc, I would have to plug 3pts. into Shockwave to get Pull.  I can not condone that kind of waste and that is why I probably never used it, that and because I use squad Cryo for my CC.

JaegerBane wrote...

It's not 'always active' at all. It only actually effects things when you're actually hitting an undefended target with gunfire.

Not sure what point you are making here after the initial cooldown, squad has it until I turn it off (or I go to a weapon locker).  I realize it takes gunfire to undefended targets and I am not sure what the problem is with that.  It is how the game set up

JaegerBane wrote...
Biotics, on the other hand, either can snatch or just barrel through cover, require little in the way of aim, tend to have rather major results and tend to make sure the enemy is floating up in the air ripe for shooting rather than lying motionless behind cover. Not to mention the fact that a frozen opponent getting Warped poses no threat to their allies, while a Pulled opponent getting Warped is essentially a floating bomb.

Umm.... Warping a frozen enemy is silly..... just kill him with gunfire.  Use that warp for a crowd, then freeze, and kill.

Enemies frozen behind cover is not really an issue with a VG either.  Charge will more than likely send the enemy to a shattering death and I can focus myself and squad on other targets.  Most of the time, enemies are leaning up against the crates or the fall out to the side where they are exposed.

The Pull/Warp combo is great if one can pull it off and hit multiple targets consistantly.  For me, I much rather use squad cryo to ground enemies and take them out of the fight.  I find Warp to more effective when used accurately on crowds rather trying to set up a Pull/Warp explosion to do work on surrounding enemies.

Oh well, we both value things differently, you like biotic CC and I like ammo CC.  Not much more we can say about it. 

Modifié par Samurai_Wahoo, 05 mai 2010 - 10:58 .

[mcsupersport]

If you are going to try an adept don't forget to take Shield Drain. It gives you an effective means to take down shields, regen your own, and it very fast and effective. Shield Drain rounds out an Adept nicely. Also on Adepts, remember to use your environment. This time through I have found the joy of shield drain, pull and watch the guy float out over the edge and drop screaming into the abyss. If you take Kasumi and Miranda on most mission(most not all) you will have huge amounts of Warp, and overload along with shadow strike and flash bang, a very effective team.

Playing Vanguard and Infiltrator has made my adept much better in using skills and environment to kill enemies.

[deaddecoy]

Not sure what point you are making here after the initial cooldown, squad has it until I turn it off (or I go to a weapon locker). I realize it takes gunfire to undefended targets and I am not sure what the problem is with that. It is how the game set up

I think he's suggesting that cryo doesn't really do anything until you've stripped an enemy of their shields, and by then they're close to dead so what's the point. Personally, I like squad cryo. Yes it sucks that it takes a 10pt investment, but it's useful for when you charge-shotgun and fail to one-shot an enemy. At that point your squaddies will disable the enemy and you can move onto another target via charge. If he survives being shotgunned and frozen, he serves as a nice escape route, via charge, later.



Overall, I kinda like the setup for the vanguard's skill set. You don't really need a bonus talent, and having some extra biotic like push/pull tends to get in the way of using charge more frequently. Ammo powers are a nice way of giving the vanguard abilities without interfering with that one skill that will keep you alive during the critical seconds of battle.